JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Prophecy anyone?

Correct. Yet since then, followers appeal to and proselytize on the basis of an all-knowing and absolute source (bible)....that was not actually all-knowing. If it was, some parenthetical mention of the billions of years prior to humanity would have gotten a footnote in Genesis. But the people who wrote it were unaware of those billions of years...as you said....they wrote from what they knew.
And there were centuries where stating what is common knowledge now could get me arrested and put to death....in Christendom.

And John...Don't lose sight of the forest due to the wonderment of the trees. You'll get lost. I think that it is an excellent question. Comical and piercing at the same time.

Well, they wouldnt have a footnote to offer. Im not certain, but im pretty sure 5,000 years ago or more, they had no concept of anything being "ancient" TIme was where they were right now, and they had no real idea of how old the earth actually was.

It is odd, if the same people and stories came about today, nobody would think anything of them, and would write the prophets off as physcos. But since it is so far removed from scrutiny, we believe it easier.

Guranteed nobody would believe Christ if he showed up today. Youd have cults, but mainstream would not believe him.

We do have to examine why we believe something from 5000 years ago, but not something we see today... Today we have greater ways of measuring and anlyzing.

But its possible God chose that time period for that reason, i really dont know.

Bible writers knew hundreds of years in advance details about the Messiah, he would be from the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10), the family line of David (2 Samuel 7), born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2), and would suffer and be rejected (Isaiah 53). Not to mention the defeat and exile of Israel (Deuteronomy 18), (much of Isaiah), the defeat of Babylon ( much of Jeremiah and Isaiah), the rise of Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. (Daniel 2 and 7), plus many other historical details in Daniel 8-11.

The Mosaic Law's regulations on hygiene, morality and spirituality raise it above any other legal system of its time, or ours. Not to mention foreshadowing the Messiah's sacrifice 1500 years in advance.

The Bible doesn't say specifically how old the Earth is. There are several views on that. Man's written record doesn't go back far at all.

Mentioning dinosaurs is irrelevant.

Jesus isn't Yahweh, but Yahweh's only begotten Son.

2020 proved the "experts" among men know very little.

Robert...
Observant Jews in the Holy Land right now will tell you that the messiah is yet to show. Why should an agnostic such as me believe you and not them?

Mentioning several billion years before humans existed doesn't seem irrelevant to me. If we were discussing this 100 years ago, would you be telling me that there was no billions of years and that evolution was a lie? Do you think that it is now?

I don't know what I'd be telling you a 100 years ago, which is irrelevant to what the Bible has taught for 3500 years.

You might ask an orthodox Jew these questions:

1. Yahweh allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed by Babylon in 586BC because of Israel's gross unfaithfulness. What unfaithfulness did Israel commit in the 1st century that caused Yahweh to punish them with Jerusalem's destruction in 70AD?

2. It's well known that the Messiah was to be from Judah and the line of David ( see Matthew 1 and Luke 3), and the Jews kept extensive genealogies for that reason (see 1st Chronicles 1-9).

When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD, their genealogical records were also destroyed. Any Messianic claims since then are unverifiable.

Why did Yahweh allow the records to be destroyed? The Messiah had come, had been hung on a tree as prophesied, and raised by God, also prophesied.

The genealogies are no longer needed.


These are questions easily answered by reading the Bible, which will take time and effort.

Many people use "questions " about religion to avoid that time and effort, especially what they'll need to do if the Bible convinces them it's the authentic word of God. See Acts 24:24, 25.

The problem Couch is the biblical references you cite, are not proven to be factual. And saying they are doesnt make it true, it comes down to faith, that is the main argument. Im actually surprised by your conviction, you normally dismiss everything. You can not claim proof any of that happened in The Bible, you can only take a leap of faith and hope.

Dinosaurs, and the universe DO have relavence when you speak of a God, because God is not just a guy who people write Bibles about, but HE is the CREATOR. If The Bible says 7 days and on the seventh day he rested, that is so wrong, its not even funny. It took BILLIONS of years, 14 billion years from big bang to now. Yet most people who study the bible dont believe that.

If HE created the Heavens and The Earth nobody had any clue how long the process took.

I pulled this out because it has 3 concise statements and one is empirical..

The messiah had come...unverifiable to the skeptic.
raised by God...unverifiable to a skeptic

had been hung on a tree as prophesized...Exactly where in ancient biblical writings, predating Christ, does it say exactly this about a coming messiah?
A Roman crucifix is not a tree. It was a state instrument used for killing in a purposefully drawn out agonizing way, but wooden for sure...so tree will ring the bell.

Book, verse , passage...please. And any other EXACT passages concerning pinpointing Christ not yet arrived, would be enthusiastically appreciated.

Thank you.

The other problem is prophecy can be so vague. If You write a prophecy, somebody else can try to make it happen, and then say "see they were right" If you try to fill in the dots

I predicted Tampa would win the superbowl, but im no prophet. And I have proof i predicted it, and proof it happened.

And i do alot or prognosticating. My Buddy predicts stock markets.

FD, your comparison of predicting the Super Bowl is ridiculous. With that statement, I feel any further discussion with you about the Christian faith is casting pearls before swine.

Marty, God isn't interested in skeptics, he's interested in those "poor in spirit", meaning those aware of their spiritual need.

Ill be the better Christian here. Ill turn the other cheek

Robert

I thought that God loved everyone and was interested in everyone. I am skeptical of assertions that cannot be backed up, but am not an atheist and I do not disdain religion or religious people...as long as they are not condemning or dangerous in some way. I am a genuinely interested agnostic. Be all that as it may....

Book? Verse? Passage?

Very astute Marty... it's the privilege that some die hard believers think they have.

Of Course God is interested in skeptics, id say He was pretty interested in Doubting Thomas. In fact, HE came for the non believer as much as the believer.

Weak arguments shew....

He be born of a woman..... I might have guessed that myself. If he had been born of a man, now THAT would be supernatural

Born in Bethehem . Is this passage clear as a bell that THE messiah would be born in Bethelhem?

Micah:
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans[a] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

Born of a Virgin.... nobody knows that. unless there were doctors proving she was a virgin. and Mary is a huge figure in the catholic church. Yet when she appears in apparitions, nobody believes the people who saw her, they think they are nuts.

He'd be an heir to King Davids Throne, who himself may not have existed. Historians of the Ancient Near East agree that David probably existed around 1000 BCE, but that there is little else that is agreed on about him as a historical figure. The Tel Dan Stele, an inscribed stone erected by a king of Damascus in the late 9th/early 8th centuries BCE to commemorate his victory over two enemy kings, contains the phrase in Hebrew: ביתדוד‎, bytdwd, which most scholars translate as "House of David". Apart from this, all that is known of David comes from the biblical literature, the historicity of which is doubtful,[10] and there is little detail about David that is concrete and undisputed.[11][12]

I stand humbled before God, and confess that i have a hard time believing sometimes, but want to. If He can read any of our minds, he knows we are all horny, selfish, petty, narcisistic, egotistical people. Many of us dont even realize we are those things. SO how could be punished for being things we dont even realize that we are?

Tony,

Thank you for providing this. I looked into it for a reference in the OT that would verify Robert's statement about the messiah being "hung from a tree as prophesized."
I found a line in your post..."Messiah would be crucified with criminals." and clicked on it.
It led to ISIAH 53 12, which it quotes as the following:

"Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[a]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[b]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors."

Reading that...I don't understand the reference to a messiah being hung from from a tree or crucified. Can you clear it up?

Sometimes it's a bit like Nostradamus, it fits, yet it doesnt.

I wonder what Couch thinks of Nostradmus

I can envision him saying "nothing Nostradmus predicted came true"

I believe that the constitutional originalists have it right.
The constitution says what it says and does not say what it does not say.
Activist judges broaden the interpretation in order to fit desired political agendas and outcomes.

At some level, this could be stretched into an application to the life of Christ. But it's very broad and not specific enough in my eyes to be the prophecy of the crucifiction.
If it was, it would not require so much interpretation.

There's also bias, and not obvious, lets concoct a story bias, but general, We NEED to to be true bias.

If you let a Hindu read the old testament and ask him or her to find The truth in it, doubtful they will. It;s only when you look for it, with a need for it to be true, does it start to seem right. I could read the Hindu books for the rest of my life, none of it will ever ring true for me.

I read this last night, Of course, nobody is going to like it, but the writer is a human just like the rest of us.

https://www.jamaicaobserver.com/columns/old-testament-did-not-predict-jesus_84812

The old testament Hebrews didn't even know what crucifixion was... so they didn't name it specifically. However, when you put all the prophecies together, the description fits.

ok, but here's the conundrum, if its GODS word, was GOD not smart enough to know HE himself would die of crucifixtion.

It wouldnt be hard for GOD to insert the word crucifixtion into the mix, HE'S GOD, "hey guys if you write anything at all, make sure you get my name JESUS, and CRUCIFIXTION down.

Unless you believe it's much more subtle than that, and we are bound to whatever limitations we have at any time. Right, if I dont know about crucifixtion, i cant write about it. But why am i all knowing then?

People are different. If you tell a person like me that all he needs to plan out his entire existence through the entirety of time...is contained in one book, because it is the absolute truth presided over by an all knowing being and creator of all...

then...

That book needs to be explicitly descriptive and unambiguous and right every time. It needs to require no interpretation or explanation if it the absolute truth that can be replied upon to govern someone's eternity. And it needs to be literal, not figurative.


There is an old adage in the business world...."The longer and more complicated the explanation of a deal becomes, the less likely that it is a good deal."

If God decided to smack all of humanity in the back of our heads and said, "Wake up you ungrateful, disobedient hoodlums!" How many of us would then accuse God of being a tyrant?

If I could meet any historical figure and asked them a question...I would ask Christ...

Knowing all of the uncountable numbers of people who (in your name) were slain in battle, carnaged and tortured during foreign occupations, tortured and slain in heretical cleansings, accused of the occult and or heresy and or blasphemy and then tortured and put to death throughout Christendom and in centuries well beyond. As well as those told that their life of enslavement was a small price to pay in order to know of you....

Would you do it all again?

I don't know what he would say. How do you think that Christ would answer Tony?

lol. It IS called faith for a reason. Put another way though, if you need surgery do you put your faith in a surgeon,,, because he says hes a doctor, or are you absolutely sure he is.

Well to bring it all back full circle I think if God loved us, he wouldn't have created band in a box.

Im the wrong guy to be arguing this stuff cause i have wrestled with it all my life. Going to catholic school, i didnt question much back then, Last two decades or so weve learned so much about everything, it gets hard.

All I can do is plead the fifth, and Ask God to pardon his prodigal son.

Neil deGrasse Tyson put it well...(paraphrased)
Faith is when people continue to believe something when there is no actual verifiable evidence to support it.

I'm going to sign off from this now. I am not someone who wants to attack other people's religious beliefs. I understand the need to believe in something bigger and have it explain this strange place where we all ended up. And I understand the comfort that beliefs bring people. I'm just someone who questions assertions that appear possibly fallible.

But thats not actually an attack "faith is belief in something in which there is no evidence" otherwise the definition changes

Im convinced belief starts young, ive known a few people who grew up with out any religion taught to them at all, and therefore have none. Ive also heard of atheists who now believe, and former devout believers who are now atheists.

Yes, I despise smart ass atheists who enjoy flattening people. its very easy to win a rational argument, cause faith is not rationale, it's faith.

There are also some phycists who DO believe in something greater, as do I, nobody seems to be able to put their finger on it though.

Cain and Abel...
Only men, out of self serving greed, subjugate and enslave one another... not God. The premise of your question is incorrect.

Totally unfair thing to post when I am enjoying a beer FD. The laugh made beer come out of my nose!

I dont see the premise of my question as incorrect...at all. I see it as cause and effect.
But, I dont want to argue it further.
Let's call it here and .........................................................................................fade this.

I can somewhat understand problems caused by OTHER people, and not God, in that I get what Japov is saying. Free will is the answer. What I would ask, is WHY did you create an earth and environment that KILLS people before they even start?

Earthquakes, Hurricanes, Rocks, from outer space crashing in and destroying our whole planet at least five times already, genetic defects, child deaths .... we think everything is fine cause our planet is stable for about 10 k years now, wasnt always and wont always be. None of that is free will or other people, that's God who did that.. or didnt do anything about to fix.
.
I wouldn't create an Earth so dangerous to live on if I loved my people.

Some people say God has his reasons. And people always credit God "Thank God for this or that" But when something bad happens, they never blame God, God bats a thousand. I think theres a book with that title.

Here is a point of view which examines that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0nXG02tpDw

yeah i posted that earlier myself. lol

If somebody designed the Earth that way, it doesnt make sense.

There is much beauty about the universe and the earth too. Things didn't have to be beautiful. Mountains, rivers, the stars, but they are.

But there's so much ugliness like rats and tsunamis too.

Hard to figure out, but as strange as it all is, isnt it just as strange that nothing caused everything? Its hard to believe there is a God also hard to believe there isnt. Its all so strange.

Even Gene Simmons has some ideas.... Not a big fan but he is a smart guy. And this whole interview is great

but his thoughts on God.... https://www.axs.tv/channel/the-big-...-dan-rather-season-2/video/gene-simmons/

Start at 26:00

It is hard to believe that nothing caused everything.

Akin to that is opening your eyes and wondering....Why this and not something else?
Why anything at all?

Maybe we get to find out. Maybe not.

Yes science believes it could have been a million different things.

Hmmm... What would God say...?

I Am.
The earth and the universe are My creation.
I created you in My own image and allowed you a small portion of My own intellect.
I made you male and female so that you would multiply.
I made you mortal so that you would know life is precious.
I gave you complete dominion to lord over My creation.
I limited you within the confines of physical science and linear time because I knew, in your ignorance and your arrogance, you would turn away from Me just as Lucifer did.
I gave you My infallible word as a spiritual guide and a promise of eternal life, and allowed you a glimpse into the future.
I allowed you the benefit of recorded history so that you may learn from your own mistakes.
I paid the price for your transgressions Myself because, as your God and creator, only I can forgive.
I did all this because I Am, and I did so freely.
I reserve knowledge for Myself because the power of creation is Mine alone.
My judgment is just and true.

What more, in your limited capacity to understand, can you possibly expect of God?
If you're a good, kind, and charitable person with the means to solve problems and effect change, then realize... you're merely doing what God intended, and has empowered you to do, while you waggle your silly tongue in complaint.

People who don't want to believe won't believe no matter what proof you show them, without faith you can not please God and God's people perish for the lack of knowledge. His knowledge is contained in the bible but those that won't read it won't find it. Those that read it and are not really looking for the truth won't find it. God knows your heart and mind and will only reveal His truth to those really looking for it for the right reason. If you read the bible trying to prove it wrong, you will not find the truth. If you are looking for flaws to diminish the faith of believers, your intent is evil and your eyes will be blinded to the truth. Just as the Jews were blinded to the truth that Jesus was their messiah, they would not accept Him, so the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles who did believe. Satan is the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air, but his reign is soon to be over. Man is given free will to choose to follow Satan or Jesus, and that choice will determine where you end up for eternity.

The bible requires believers to warn sinners that are heading for destruction, if we do not warn them and they die in their sins, their blood may be required of us, but if we warn them and they continue on to destruction, we will not be held responsible. We are also told not to cast our pearls before swine, if people are determine not to believe, we are wasting our time.

I dont think thats true Everette, even a tiny bit of proof would make most people strong believers. Why is Satan the God of this world? WHy doesnt God kick his ass? Why let Somebody you can knock out quickly rule at all?

The problem is I could write a Bible and say it's Gods word too. Its not Gods word by saying it is. How do you know The Bible is Gods word? Because it says it in the Bible?

Lol... that would certainly be a short, uneventful, plagiaristic masterpiece...
Yes Dom, the Bible says anyone who earnestly seeks God will be empowered by the Spirit to understand.

But that is not true then, cause I know many who have, and do not believe, either never or not any more.

So IN the book, it says anybody who earnestly seeks God, will understand. All books say the same thing.

I'm batting about .195 with 2 hr's and 15 rbi in my belief these days. In danger of being sent down to the minors....

There is nothing immoral or lacking about asking for proof of some assertion or claim.
And when people make assertions that there is absolute proof of their claims, but then cant actually provide it...that is not the shortcoming of the person asking for evidence.

That is the shortcoming of the evidence not provided.

I looked at the Gene Simmons clip and I have to say I have had the same thoughts.

As thinking, aware humans who are able to see what injustice, unfairness and abhorrent behaviour looks like, and as a species that is capable of inflicting lots of it, I want to ask God some questions on Judgement Day if it indeed arrives. It may be sacrilegious thinking, but there are some things so horrifying that I feel even "God's Mysterious Ways" must be held under a microscope

This is especially keen in my mind these days as Canada is stunned by the find of the graves of 215 Indigenous children at a residential school in Kamloops BC

For background, Canada, in implemeting a policy of integrating Indigenous peoples into society, set up residential schools for Indigenous children in 1883 ...to be run by various religious insitutions and some private interests

What happened thereafter to these children is horrible. First they were simply scooped up from their families who had no choice as authorities removed these children from their homes.

Second, many Canadians did not know until our Truth And Reconciliation Commission report about 5 years ago about what really happened in those places...and now this latest news, and the likelihood now that more will be uncovered at other school sites is horrifying.

Children died at these schools for various reasons ...illness, neglect, suicide...even reports of murder ....but what is most horrifying is that these children simply "disappeared". Their parents were not notified. There were no marked graves with crosses....their bodies appear to have been simply "disposed of". There was also physical and sexual abuse and tremendous trauma was experienced by students, the dead, survivors and all Indigenous families with children in that system...and the latest news must be tearing at the hearts of those whose children simply disappeared

And the worst part? The religious insitutions and bastions of morality that were behind it all initially resisted calls for accountability....advised by reams of lawyers

So God, how could you let this happen to children...and have it caused by priests and ministers and lay people of the church? Moreover, the Catholic Popes, claiming infallibility due to their direct channel to You, ignored things and tried to sweep things under the rug for as long as possible. That has only begun to change in recent years, and just the other day Pope Francis ( a good one IMO) changed Canon Law to criminalize all instances where its priests or lay people (including school principals) use their positions of authority for sexual purposes.

But it had to be forced on them. It did not come about because of their faith, basic human decency etc. In fact it was probably more due to the many lawsuits the church faced because of the sexually predatory behaviour of some of its priests and the bishops who sheltered them

Now we find 215 and counting innocent children dead, supposedly in the care of God fearing Christian people who claimed moral superiority because of their position...who expected to go the Heaven because of their faith...mistreated their charges and simply disposed of their bodies like refuse if they died in their care

Where is the lesson God, and why use innocent children to send it?

If faith is the means to Heaven and everlasting life, how do You overlook their egregious sins?

I think if we get passed the "bearded man" Concept of God, it gets easier. I think there is much wonderment in a "spiritual" existence. ANd people are more apt to believe a Spiritual side than a physical side. There's tons of paranormal things that happen, there's studies of physics and energy,most people have felt a "sixth" sense at some point.

When I was a child I had an "experience" with Mary. I was praying for her to intercede. I dont want to embarrass myself, so Ill stop there, but I have never forgotten the feeling I had.

Ive had "feelings" of something going on when both my parents died. and some interesting things that happened, which may or may not astound anyone, but I felt it.

I think there is a spiritual world, it's just the dogma and the utter simplicity in which it is stated sometimes, makes people poo poo it.

Sermon On The Mound

The stadium grew quiet
As Jesus took the field
He wasn't looking happy
Stepped right into my grill
"What's that you think your pitchin'?"
He sprayed into my eye
"The Devil's up to bat
And he's wearing a disguise"

"War has been declared
You can't turn the other cheek
It's time to plant your foot
Wind up and bring the heat!"

The bases are all loaded
With demons on the run
The outfield's moving back
'Cause the batter's got a gun
It's the bottom of the ninth
On this sacred battleground
But Jesus ain't done preachin'
His sermon on the mound

While Jesus was still standing there
The Devil winked and grinned
He spat into the dust
And checked his grip again
Jesus said, "Don't worry
Have faith, I've got a plan"
He slapped me on the shoulder
Then waved to the fans

My nervous knees were shaking
My uniform was drenched
But Jesus smiled and turned
Then jogged back to the bench

Well, I waved off the curve
No way the Devil's walkin'
I nodded to the one
And let my fastball do the talking
90 miles per hour
Inside and at his knees
The Devil over-swung
And hit it straight back to me

First and second took a lead
Third just stood there watching
Easy one, two, three
And the faithful just keep talkin'...

Are you stealing lyrics again? You saw it when I posted it. I took it down didnt think it fit. All money goes to me.

Sermon On The Mound

Some apostles gathered round me
as Jesus walked up the hill
He wasn't lookin happy
stepped right into my grill
"What the Devils gotten into you?"
He sprayed into my eye
"There ain't nowhere to put em"
gonna say this one more time"

Thou shalt not be a nibbler
tryna paint the corner red
and blessed be the hurlers
who bring the heat instead
Walk not, and though shalt not be sent walkin
Obey your brothers sign
and let your fastball do the talkin....

Well, Jesus turned the other cheek
and headed back to the bench
My every bone was shakin
and uniform was drenched

The Devil, he tried to tempt me
Said "the curve ball is the pitch"
Then Jesus barked back at him
Said "well now, ain't that rich"

Thou shalt not be a nibbler
Tryna paint the corner red
and blessed be the hurlers
who bring the heat instead
Walk not, and thou
shalt not be sent walkin
Obey your brothers sign
and let your fastball do the talkin

Then, like a Prodigal Son
I was back in good grace
I caught a Pharoah lookin
You shoulda seen his face
The reporters had a field day
with their version of the Truth
Some called me the Messiah
I said "man, don't put me in that booth"

Cause y'all thought John the Baptist
Held the key to the promised land
But Jesus is the answer
It was written by His Hand

Thou shalt not be a nibbler
tryna paint the corner red
and blessed be the hurlers
who bring the heat instead
Walk not, and thou
shalt not be sent walkin
Obey your brothers sign
and let your fastball do the talking...

At the tale end of that interview with Tyson, he said that his opinion doesnt matter.

Paraphrasing that....

God is whatever God is.
God is not whatever God is not.

What I want to believe God is, doesn't change what God actually is or is not.
So we wait and see.

What money...? lol

Look guys, God is not a tyrant and we are not robots. God is not responsible for what WE have done with His creation. Besides, the rewards of eternity make it all worth while

Well they want to know his opinion because he clearly knows the physical world better than the layman. Scientists are able and are supposed to observe the physical world without attaching God to it. Whether they believe in God or not.

What God is MAY be an subjective, personal thing, not an observable truth.

Another take is Pascal's Wager

A rational person should live as though God exists and at least try to believe in God.

If God does not actually exist, there is only some kind of loss in this world..pleasure etc....whereas if God exists, the reward is in infinite gains... and infinite losses are avoided

Yeah John my uncle used to say the same thing... "you have nothing to lose by believing"

That's not exactly true though. If by believing you are walking the walk, it means you are giving up an hour of your life every Sunday to go to mass, you are supposedly avoiding things that make you a "bad" person, like wanting sex every minute of the day. However, if we were famous rock stars, that would be a very hard thing to give up, it's very easy to not sleep with hundreds of women.... lol

I always wondered why sex addiction is a problem, if only I could get enough women to have sex with me to HAVE an addiction.

However, if like most of us, we say we believe but dont change much, then yeah, we have nothing to lose.

What if we say God, look its very hard to believe in you, and im doing this out of fear, and not faith, but please if up there, spare me...

Its too simplistic to think of it in those terms, those are relationship terms we are assigning to God.

God is not a person. Unless he is the president of another planet somewhere, and Earth is his experiment.

Nothing is really out of the realm of possibility