JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Unfinished but promising

This track isn't finished yet, but could become an interesting song:

https://soundcloud.com/aleksalt/take-me-back-first-draft

Note: I used an acapella from the sample pack there, the rest is mine,
I placed acapella over my beat just to show the style and mood of the future song,
so, if you're a female singer/songwriter and you like what you hear, and this inspires you, then get in touch with me

Nice track, but I wonder about the legality of it. This gals vocal was online, and you put it to music?

What if you got this published, whose song would it be, melody is the song.

Boy, thought I heard of everything, but not somebody giving a vocal with lyrics as a sample, lol

Yes, melody is half the song. Better see if she's interested in a 50/50 co-write Alex.

Best, John .

Well, I'm not going to place the track with that particular vocals anywhere, but hope to attract another singer/songwriter
to write/sing over my beat...and this works last 3 decades in urban genres...just read this old article:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/03/26/the-song-machine

Okay if you don't use her melody Alek. But if you keep her melody, it's her song as well.

John

Not to mention its her lyric too. I thought maybe you were gonna say it was a free to use vocal and and lyric you found online. They've been doing it the other way around forever. You topping off beats and tracks

This way presents some problems cause only the lyric and melody is the song...

Yeah, you can do that, ive never heard of being done that way, but if it inspires a nice chord progression or beat, works.

I know Nashville lyricists ave been doing that forever. Take a hit song, and write new lyrics to it, then dont tell your co writer how you did it, and they will likely compose something completely different.

But it locks you in to structure and you know it's singable.

Good luck with it, like to hear the finished track.

I didn't know he was/ is using her lyrics. Well, if it's her melody, and her lyrics, then it's her song. If you write new lyrics to her melody, it's a 50/50 co-write. If you use her lyrics with your melody, then it's also a 50/50 co-write.

John

I think he said it was an a cappella track with her vocal, so i assumed the lyric is hers to, Unless he wrote the lyric, gave it to her, and then he wrote the music, probably not though

She had to have a melody that works musically, so she probably did the same thing. Used another song as a reference. Cause the melody is on and so is her pitch.

I think Alek has been quite clear. He's not actually going to use that melody or lyric. He used it as an example of what might be possible for a top liner over his beat and an illustration of the "style and mood" he is aiming for. That New Yorker article is one I read a few years ago and is really interesting.

Yes, after re-reading Alek's original post that was his intention. MY misunderstanding.

JohN

But why then does it need to be a female singer songwriter?

I think so....sure it's a female song. Instead this sometimes I do songs for males only, like this:

https://soundcloud.com/aleksalt/my-friend

I even know who is the best match for that song: Chris Norman or Smokie (they split and went their own ways)...
I even got in touch with Norman's manager with proposal of that song, but she replied his EP is complete already and is going to be released

"I know Nashville lyricists ave been doing that forever. Take a hit song, and write new lyrics to it, then dont tell your co writer how you did it, and they will likely compose something completely different."

Like many things online, this is sort of correct, but not exactly correct. While some people use as an excercise taking an existing song and re-writing lyrics to it, when you graduate into the professional ranks, publishers, who are already gun shy due to lawsuits, will frown on this process. What does happen is people will bring in existing songs, to use as STARTING PLACE to get ideas kicked off. Playing one or more songs to put someone in the mindset of the TYPE of song is fairly common. Also, when studying a hit artists, current and past catalog, it is something that is done, to attempt to see where they might be going, is fairly common.

Today, with so many songs sounding exactly alike, there are many downfalls to that. Most writers, don't listen to a lot of things they didn't write, because of fearing to pick up something that could endanger their own songs.

Other things that happen is that a publisher might have hit songs in their catalog and want their writers to write something "like that" to use as examples. Since now, the artists are usually involved in the process, getting a feel for a type of song, then adding their personal life experiences, will be done a good bit.

In rock and rap, they often have multiple writers writing independently at the same time, several different songs/ Theyve been given keys ,tempos, etc. and are writing for a specific artist. They will often do radio ready full up demos on these songs. Then producers have been known to cut and paste from multiple songs, and use different pieces of totally unrelated songs. It's how you sometimes get 12-14 writers on a song. They are all doing the same thing at the same time.

But the practice of using ANYTHING that is part of something already existing is fraught with trouble going in. Even if it is only to demonstrate. For a while, back in the early 2000's, a lot of studios, songwriters, etc. were selling CD's of blank tracks, to be used in songwriting excercises. They might have hundreds of older songs laying around that were never heard past the original recording, so they might go onto a CD, with titles like "COUNTRY UP-TEMPO" "COWBOY COUNTRY-,MID TEMPO" "ROCK POWER BALLAD" "HEAVY METAL ROCKER.." ETC. Those kind of things. I never knew about it until I taught a workshop in San Diego, California, where a young girl, about 16, played a track and then sang accapella her lyrics over that track. The track was very good, but the lyrics were only so so. I told her she needed to "get them recorded together. She told me that she had bought the tracks from a music store. I thought it was interesting, but felt like it could really cause problems down the road.
Two days later I was in Salt Lake Utah, teaching another workshop, and one of the women came out with THE SAME TRACKS and her completely different lyrics. That one was not that good either but the tracks sounded good. I felt like as an excercise, it's fine, but if you are going to present anything to anyone, you need to try and find your own way. Any time you include someone else's work without express permission, you are just asking for trouble. You might find yourself doing a song that has 400 other songs to the same tracks. Can be the same with melodies and lyrics too. Personally, I'd just avoid it if possible.

Music by committee. And often, it sounds like it.

MAB

I could never succesfully collborate, its so hard for me, cause I cant see anything but my path for a song, and i immediately think its not gonna work, and usually doesnt, i have written one or two that were passable.

Well, yeah, I dont know any Nashville writers at the pro level, to compare. But I did know some quasi serious writers on the old TS site, who did this all the time. When you have no musical muscle, but write lyrics, its very challenging to write a lyric thats gonna work. Doing that gives them the skeleton to work with and always its gonna be on in structure. The thinking was if this was a hit, We know its singable, and we know its got a hit structure to it. And, it gives your insight to what type of songs the singer likes to sing. Rascal Flatts has a hit...lets do the same exact thing and see if he sees a pattern he likes.

I had the same thoughts about it, in fact we debated that. One guy who lived in Nashville told me about this process. I thought, isnt that cheating? He said, if youre in Nashville, youll know this is done all the time. Now your're conficting with him. I never did see you on that forum, there was alot of people there who moved to Nashville for the dream.

They used to tick me off cause they didnt think rock writers were good. Which is rediculous. Every rock writer I know was better than they are lol, Lyrically, Ill take Hotel California over She thinks my tractors sexy, ANYDAY!

The question would be, would anybody reconise its the same meter. Cause were talking lyrics, not music. IN valuable to a non melody writing lyricist.

I agree good practice anyway. Write new lyrics to hit songs, and youll quickly learn whats working and whats not. If you're good.

James Taylor agrees.... but he only did it once.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5RE1z_QJQM

Great post MAB. But I think in this day what Alek is doing is fine as he gets going. It is common practice to start. But at the pro level, Marc's description kicks in.

There are of course, exceptions to every rule, but most pro writers would be discouraged from doing this as threat of lawsuits. Of course, with much of todays music being sampled, it is hard to say what would be sued over and how anything would stand up. I'm not even sure copyrights will hold up in the future, but it's always an interesting topic.

What happens here that is more predominate is the introduction of BEATS .Endless drum loops, with pretty much the same feels, predominate all music. Rap and hip hop is mostly sampling. All music is now very similar if not direct copies. And publishers do encourage writing things that sound similar to what is on the radio. Since many people are all writing similar things, in fact you will find some writers names on multiple hit songs, so if they are stealing from anyone, they are stealing from themselves.

And as I said, as an excercise, it's a tool people use. In today's "anyone can do it" world, most people will do whatever they can get at the click of a mouse.

For me, it's just not that big a concern, because I don't sit around and listen to what's on the radio and then do that. I have clients that come in that might be influenced and like certain songs or artists, and I'll listen to some of that for reference, but it generally just gets us in the target area, and the similarities end there. Many of things that are on the radio, I have no interest in copying at all, but that is just me. For my two cents, the more you utilize other people's work, the more problems you invite in being accepted. Mostly it would be taking some of that into a legitimate publisher who would simply say "Ahh, we've already got a ton of that. What else you got?"

To each his own.
MAB

I guess to the desperate Nashville writer, its worth it to try anything to give him an edge. If the publisher says no, well you werent going anywhere anyway.

I always wondered what is the worst that could happen if getting sued for plagerism? Nobody knew you, now they do. You made more money because people are now listening because of the suit. Your name gets out there.

If Im writing a song, and it sounds an awful lot like Travis Tritt, it either A, sits doing nothing. or B, becomes a hit, I get sued, but still get half the money it makes. Not a bad deal. Its a twisted way of looking at it, but its the truth.

Steal somebody elses hit, and you become a hit songwriter too.

Looking at it like that, it shows that you could steal something 90%, and still not do anything with it, cause you dont have a way to make it a hit. Think of that one... you HAVE a hit song, you already know its a hit minus a few lines or beats here and there, and you still cant get it out there.

And if these publishers were so sharp, why is their a plagerism suit every week now?

My thoughts exactly. What thrill is there in creating something that's already been done. I'm sure out of my 5,000 tracks that there will be some similarities found, but that's only by coincidence. They're still my creations. I didn’t set out to plagiarize. The ideas came from me – so if coincidentally, someone else may have had similar ideas, big deal. With only 12 half-tones (and their octaves) to work with, what the hell do you expect.

Some of these writers with lawsuits, seem to think they own every note they write down.

John

I probably haven't written an original song in my life, if you use the same four chords as everybody else has, how original is it. Everything's been done.

Sting, writing in modes, is the most original ive heard in pop music, but im sure he copied somebody else in the obscure past.

Which again points to, you need a way to make the song a hit, besides writing one.

A whole lot of plagerism goin on...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I

Well, he isn't alone on that...
there is such a thing called "songwriting tip & tricks",

don't remember where I found about such a way of re-writing songs (both melody and lyrics), maybe from the book/article by John Braheny or Jason Blume.

Also they mentioned "writing under pressure", i.e. today is 04.20.21, so, author set the task to himself:
die, but write it till 22.00 04.22.21...so. he has 2 days to write a complete song.

2 days are sometimes even too much...
Robin Gibb (Bee Gees) recollected, once they came to the studio for recording...
the engineer met them and asked: Where is your song?"
They replied: "We don't a song yet..."( I just imagine the engineer's face at that moment)...
They said : "Don't worry", then sat down wrote a song in a half hour and then recorded it

This popped up in my YT feed. The subject matter is somewhat related to the conversation going on here. At least, from an attorney's viewpoint.
I was never aware of this video maker until recently, but it appears that he has been there and done it....so I personally regard him as someone to learn from. He is personally describing a current and personal copyright struggle vis-a-vis YouTube.

Additionally he has demonstrated in his videos over and over that he is, personally, a good musician.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5lY_DbUsok

I agree Alec, its been done so many times, and we would never know it was done, youre not stealing anything, you are using it as a template, as James Taylor said. And if its good enough for James Taylor it is for me. Yeah it's mentioned in many books. John Brahenys books was one of the best I ever read.

Ive never actually done it. I did one time with a lyric, I knew I had a good melody, but I need a bridge I think? And i decided to write new lyrics to a bridge of a similar song or what I thought was similar anyway, and then wrote the bridge, it worked, but the song wasnt really good anyway so I ditched it.

But Id say especially for lyricists its a nice technique, and there is no way to link a lyrics meter to another song, and even if you could, there is no copyright protection for lyric meters, nor Chord progressions.

I dont think its a good idea doing with music or melody cause even a piece of melody could cause problems

But lets be real here, if we are lucky enough to get sued for a hit song, we are doing pretty well anyway.

I dont try to copy anything but i end up doing it anyway, what am I supposed to do check with BMI after every song i write and see if somebody is using the same chord? Which I gurantee you somebody has.

and Alec, John Entwistle of the Who had a similar thing happen to him. He wasnt under pressure from publishers or record companies, but TOWNSHEND! it was Entwistles job to write one or two songs every album, and you can usually tell which ones he wrote...lol He had a few Good ones.

But they were recording, and Townshend says to him, "SO john, how are your new songs coming along", He says, oh just great...but he didnt have anything. So Townshend says "whats the name of it' And he says errr, and he looks around and saw a spider on the floor" and he says I have a song about a spider, Townshed says "great, whats it called" Errrrr. "Boris The Spider" oh, Let me hear it...

And the legend is he wrote it right in front of him, without Pete even knowing... Goofy song but still amazing he was able to do it.

Boris The Spider
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvFuUaCe8eY

Speaking of the Who, Rick Beato just popped up in my feed with what makes this song great. I agree with everything he says here too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7a4t0U4MCM

50%? If you lose a lawsuit (i.e. use someone's work without permission) if you are sharp you negotiate a cut for everyone. BUT if you rip off the wrong people, as in the case of Bittersweet Symphony, the Rolling Stones get 100% of not just your song earnings, but also ALL your income streams ever made from day one including touring, videos etc. They got hammered HARD because they messed with the wrong group and lawyer. In the case of Harold Payne when Snoop Dogg stole his song (along with his cowriters) they played nice, got paid, got credit, created good will and continued career success. Smart pro's just strike a deal, avoid court and move on. Don't mess with the Stones or Don Henley, both 100% litigious.

Could have been either but John created the entire Songwriter help movement along with Len Chandler. Both were/are JPF mentors and good friends. I still miss the guy. We're getting ready to interview Jason soon for our youtube channel. I already have 32 interviews lined up not counting MAB.

Brian

Well im not advising anybody go out and do that, but its been done, and has been done for years. It seems now lawsuits are rampant. I heard some bar band in new jersey was sued for playing Springsteen songs IN the bar...lol, i think alot of bar bands would be screwed if they had to pay dues on all bar peformances. Bruce apparently didnt want his publisher to sue, but they insisted

Whats funny abut The Stones and The Verve is the part the Verve sampled was not even written by Jagaer and Richards, it was composed as an intro by some orchestral guys. But it was part of their recording, so its there's. Beside the stones have stolen from so many.

Yeah, a risk, but if you're a broke songwriter who writes a song like the verves, no judge is going to ask you to dig into your pocket for fines, , hes just going to give credit and money to the author of the song. So again the broke guy dont have much to lose. If he gets ANYTHING out of it, he's way ahead. It seems these cases always end in some money for the "thief"

Personally, The Verve's song is one of the best songs from the 90's.and so far has and I think will stand the test of time, its so classic sounding. I dont know why they didnt just ask permission before hand, did Harry Fox not exist then?

Great track! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyu1KKwC74

Wow, just read Ashcroft, from the verve, only got 1000 bucks lol, WHATTTT? Stones are Aholes. but its probably the publishers behind it. I guess if your gonna steal dont do it to massive artists.

Great line by Ashcroft... Verve bassist Simon Jones explained, "We were told it was going to be a 50/50 split, and then they saw how well the record was doing. They rung up and said we want 100 percent or take it out of the shops, you don't have much choice."[19] Ashcroft sarcastically said, "This is the best song Jagger and Richards have written in 20 years",[20] noting it was their biggest UK hit since "Brown Sugar".[19]

Difference between Bruce and The Stones

https://parade.com/42527/parade/bruce-springsteen-im-not-involved-in-bar-lawsuit/

Not sure what you are saying about the Stones, but as I understand it, they took great pains to credit their own sources of songs based on blues singers in the US...mostly black.

Maybe I was a bit harsh on Mick and Keith, theyre not aholes, maybe just armpits....

Seems it was this guy Klein who wanted it.

And I dont know if anybody challeneged me about the stones stealing stuff, I cant see if they did, but I stand behind that. and its pretty well documented.

It’s said that The Stones themselves didn’t have a say in the deal and it was all Klein’s doing – the official line goes that Klein demanded full royalties when the song started making waves, claiming the band had used more of the sample than agreed. Mick’n’Keef themselves probably blew the cash on lipbalm and hair twigs without even noticing it. But nonetheless it’s been something of a stain on their reputation for decades. If someone taking a chunk of a cover of a 30-year-old song of yours and rewriting it into a relevant, era-defining behemoth, and your response is to swoop in like Richard Branson on the NHS budget without even leaving a crumb of a co-write behind, you’re not merely stifling the natural ebb and flow of rock’n’roll through the ages like some cackling cultural water baron, you’ve exposed the grasping Martin Shkreli in your black, black soul.

>"I mean, it’s not like the Stones chucked Howlin’ Wolf a quid every time they wrote a tune."

https://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/2493148-2493148

More ?

Not often does a guy admit to stealing a song... Bruce Springsteen actually did, he said he stole the riff from badlands from dont let me be misunderstood by the animals... i think he was joking, but it is the same thing just sped up on his song.

The Rolling Stones guitarist Keith Richards has revealed that he thought he ‘stole’ for a huge hit song, though he wouldn’t reveal which song it was, in a recently uploaded Guitar Magazine interview

http://www.alternativenation.net/keith-richards-allegedly-stole-the-rolling-stones-classic/

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music-white-men-sing-the-blues-1097966.html

Im just posting that in case, i doubt anybody would be stupid enough to think the stones didnt steal stuff.

Fedimento asked:


"I always wondered what is the worst that could happen if getting sued for plagerism? Nobody knew you, now they do. You made more money because people are now listening because of the suit. Your name gets out there."

Well first of all, you would never be sued unless it's a hit. The only time you hear of copyright lawsuits are when one song becomes successful and then is sued by someone else, (George Harrison vs. Bright Tunes). So 99.99% of songs never make any difference anyway. In order to get TO a hit song inthe first place, it would go through many legal incarnations, and usually someone would catch it along the way and make arrangements in the process.

For example, a few years back, Kid Rock had a hugely successful hit, "PLAYING SWEET HOME ALABAMA ALL SUMMER LONG." which featured direct pieces of the hit songs "SWEET HOME ALABAMA" by Skynyrd, and "WEREWOLVES OF LONDON" by Warren Zevon. In that song, Kid Rock included the writers of those songs and their estates in the song which was a HUGE financial windfall. Everyone was happy.

In songs like the Marvin Gaye Lawsuit, (on a song that didn't remotely sound like the original song) the writers were doing a "homage" to the feel of a Marvin Gaye song, but Marvin's family felt it was too close and they sued. Weird situation there.

But most get worked out long before they become hits. Most of these writers either know each other, or the circles, publishers, record labels, etc. will all work out behind the scene deals to ward off any legal action.

Legal action can be a pain for many reasons. First no royalties can be paid while outstanding legal action is going on. So with court casing taking an average of 5-8 years to even get a song on the docket, all the while the writers are having to pay lawyers for filing briefs in the suits. A person I know here had a huge hit song in the early 2000's. Out of nowhere, a lawsuit comes from a nobody in New Jersey who claimed that this guy had stolen his song as well as the two guys who wrote "my heart will go on" from the movie Titanic. The guy doing the suing claimed he mailed in a song to their publishers and those writers STOLE HIS SONG! Nonsense.
I've got A HUGE PROBLEM with these nobodies who never leave their living rooms, make all these claims on people who have multiple hit songs.
Michael Jackson once paid out a lawsuit for $250,000. Now you are telling me that a guy who had been having hit records since he was TWELVE FREAKING YEARS OLD, and sold some of the biggest records in history, needs some outsider who lives in his parents basement for ideas? Not likely.
Why pay out? Because they were sitting on several millions of dollars in royalties that were sitting unpaid and law fees were piling up. sometimes they pay them just to get them to go away.

But the guy I knew had to pay $60.000 to defend himself on a law suit that was thrown out on it's merits. It's totally insane.

It's why modern writers won't really listen to anything outside things from people they know. That's why there is the "NO UNSOLICITED MATERIAL" policy and why no publishers (except for the shady ones) will even listen to anything from anyone they don't know.

Other songs that might have questions on them, will be stopped before they ever get released. I know of several examples of people that had big singles coming out on huge artists, and the songs were stopped and shelved due to questions about it's authenticy. Publishers and labels don't care to pay for lawsuits so there are a ton of more songs to put out. Each artist will overcut around 15-18 songs in the first place, for a 12 song project, so dumping one and inserting another is not problem. And today with the return to singles, dropping songs are pretty routine.

I've had a few interesting examples my self. One day I was writing with a friend of mine, "Danny Wells." Danny is a huge writer, having written a George Strait numbe one "CHECK YES OR NO" and years later, hit songs for Rascal Flatts, and many others. We were writing this general idea and melody of Dannys. He had a lot of it already thought out and the song just sort of fell together in a couple of hours. Was a pretty good co-write and we left the appointment feeling pretty good about what we had done.
Then about three days later, he calls me up and says "we've got to stop that song. It sounds exactly like a song that's on the radio. We write a ton of songs here so I felt okay, we'll write something else. A couple of days later I was listening to the radio and heard the song he was talking about. It was EXACTLY like that song! Danny had just picked it up in his subconcious and translated it into what we were doing. It happens.

Another time happened to me on the other side. For years I had been doing a song in my songwriter workshops called "MY WISH." It was a nice little final song, a ballad wishing all songwriters good luck, and for people to have good lives. Simple, but did have a pretty nice melody and message. I did it for years and closed all my shows with it. It was quite well known in Nashville. One day I start getting all these phone calls and emails from friends, people I haven't heard from in years, congratulating me on my new RASCAL FLATTS HIT "MY WISH." That was funny, because I was not aware that I HAD a new Rascall Flatts cut. There are many legal papers you have to sign before something is released. And I certainly was not aware of any pitches that had been done on my song.

Then I heard the RASCAL FLATTS song "MY WISH." And DAMN!!! It sounded a LOT like mine. Same decending scale, very similar notes, some pretty striking similarities. Again. I wrote it up to "that's just what happens." I then found out that the writer was actually a friend of mine, monster hit writer JEFFERY STEELE, one of Nashville's most successful writers. Jeff and I are friends, are both wild up tempo writers, are both left handed and have done a lot of shows together. So not only had he heard the song, he had been standing right next to me when I did it and actually commented on it.
But did he steal it? HELL NO! It was just fairly common melody, was a common sentament, neither one of us were the first to use the title "MY WISH.: He had written his for his Daughter's wedding, I had written mine for songwriters, and aside from two or three places in the songs were very different. Just coincidence.

Today we face a different animal. All things are sounding EXACTLY ALIKE. They use the same drum loops, writers are writing the exact same things, same lines, same melodies. I've been told that in pop and hip hop, multiple writers will be given the style, groove, subject matter, on a song, and all be writing the same song at the same time, but independent of each other. You'll have up to 12-14 writers all doing the same thing, and doing the same tracks. Then producers, will assemble a song out of multiple songs, taking a line here and a line there, thereby you have dozens of people on the final product. And you have twenty names on a song, collecting literally tens of dollars and splitting it. A lot of trouble to go through for not much of anything. I guess if you get a Cardi B cut you will at least get some press attention and controversy.

So I don't know how copyrights in the future will even be administered and enforced. I think we will probably see copyright lawsuits go away completely, as there us not going to be anything remotely enforcable.Maybe all music will just be PUBLIC DOMAIN to begin with. I foresee a time coming where there is no money paid for music at all. It/s just something that millions of people do and nobody pays for in the first place. Today, many of my contemporaries, hit writers, myself and many others are writing custom songs on assignment for private parties. It's the same as the old Grand Masters, Michaelangelo, Rembrant, Da Vinci, painting or sculpting a work for a Pope, Kings, Queens, the government. They had patrons of the arts who paid for this privately or through grants. That's where so much of this is going.

Studios will sell tracks of existing songs, which I already have mentioned. Companies like FIVER will do their own works and you do whatever you want with them.

The entire game has changed and we have to adapt to new ways of thinking about what we do. We will still create and in some cases will be paid. But most of the time we won't. My suggestion for new writers, do research on songs. If you have something that everyone seems to go "Hey that sounds like..." listen to what they are saying, find out what they are talking about, and go to the source. If it's too similar, change yours. Easily enough done.

MAB

Not to be argumentative Marc...

but in 2021, there is not a profession of any type that is not riddled with liars, thieves and freaks.
Songwriters are not going to be up there with lawyers and used car salesman, but will be closer to those groups than to 1st grade teachers. And they're are freaks amongst even 1st grade teachers these days.

People will steal things just because they are there to steal and they dont think that anyone can stop them.
You seem like a very fine person to me, but songwriters as a whole, dont give me a whole-some feeling.

Well lets just say we've had vastly different experiences. I've been involved in a quite a few different scenarios and tend to go by my personal experiences, which I've laid out. If you've had different that is your experiences. We all go on them. At any rate good luck to you in your endeavors.

My day job is architect. Architects generally, are a friendly bunch who like to hang by the watercooler and contemplate things. Naive, idealistic. Optimistic.
But these days, they are not as friendly or dependable. I have caught one out front of one my projects taking pictures of it to knock off for another client.
Dumb enough to admit it. I got out of a truck with jeans, boots and a tee shirt on so I guess they assumed I was not the architect. Another one told me how clients who annoy him get cheated on their billable hours.

And...I think I know the building that was knocked off but there is nothing that I can do about it.
Am I depressed about it? No. See it as the natural landscape. Finally, in later years, I have a grasp of what human nature really is most of the time. "it is what it is."

So...Good luck in your endeavors as well.

Hi guys,

just uploaded a full track instead deleted sketch. I added a bridge, and piano into the chorus

https://soundcloud.com/aleksalt/take-me-back