JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Voting Pattern Discrepancies Impossible

That is not confirmed, but it is an occurrence of something large enough to have impact.
And...IF...this turns out to be nefarious, one can reasonably assume there will be more discovered when access is gained to the ballots.

Delaware County reported receiving 113,000 mail-in ballots o ..
Read more at:
https://www.businessinsider.in/poli...p;utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Kevin

At this point, you should be pushing for a thorough investigation that will dispel the cloud over Biden.
If the cloud lingers...with the gains in the house, and the likely election of 2 republican senators from GA, and only 3.5 democrat activists impersonating judges on the SCOTUS...Biden will start mired in sand and remain that way.

The Tea party is already being dusted off on right-wing-radio.

There is no cloud over Biden's win -- it is all manufactured by the new Nazi Party of Amerika. Every single secretary of state in all 50 states (or their representatives) were called and interviewed and NONE of them said they had any credible reports of higher than normal voter fraud. Not a single state!

So get ready to start learning the new salute required for our "Dear Leader".

This is what happens when you elect an amoral conman to the presidency. You begin to discover that the office of the president is too powerful and there are no guiderails to rein him in -- it all depends on a person of character that knows what lines they never can cross. Trump is not that person. I hope you enjoy your tax cuts and judges.

That is one of the most nekid cases of textbook denial (and baseless defamation) that I can remember seeing posted here.
And you are a moderator?
TDS has had a devastating effect on you Kevin.

Please get help for that.

Martin, if you are focusing on Penna, I woke up this morning to see a headline that said a lawsuit had been launched there to invalidate miliions of mail in ballots as being subject to less scrutiny than same day voting...in ID routines etc...and are alleging it gave counters the opportunity....opportunity....to perfect ballots

Now this does not at all allege fraud...just "impropriety" in how the election was organized and processed. So no more alleging fraud in Pitt and Philly...they are going state wide here

To me this is not appropriate. They have moved on from alleging massive voter fraud, which they know they will not win, (it's probably those pesky bi partisan vote counters and walked back allegations by some) to an attempt to invalidate the mail in ballots because they were not handled the same way

Are you OK with this?

The key is they are not alleging fraud anymore...they are simply attacking the mail in ballots....


And Kevin "no more than normal" is a heavily pregnant level of fraud to me. What does that mean??

John

I dont know if anything that I or you read is true. I doubt that any article anywhere is reliably true.
So I cant say what I am okay with because I dont know what is actually happening.

But yes, basically I think that the mail-in ballots were an inevitable disaster at the outset and would like them all looked at.

For me...I would like to see a fairly standard DOJ investigation into PA with the courts authorizing it.

Look at the broad brushes
Are there more votes than registered voters?
Are dead people registering and voting?
Are there affadavits that can be acted upon?

Once done...then lean on the stool pigeons
The ordinary people in the campaigns who broke the law because they thought that they would never be caught or were pressured and assured by handlers that they would never get caught...yet, are now facing a federal prison term.

That is where the dam breaks or not in my view.
Either all sorts of evidence comes streaming in from the stoolies or it does not, because it is not there.

That scenario is what this one random old guy who posts opinions on a songwriter site would like to see...to be convinced...hopefully.

Election fraud? Why hasn’t someone ever investigated that? Oh WAIT!, they did.


Ever the narcissist and egotist, trump could not be happy just getting elected in 2016. He was chaffed about not winning the popular vote in 2016 and claimed voter fraud. He had it investigated and they found nothing.


Like in 2016, Trump’s voter fraud claims are as fake as a Mc Enany eyelash.





(from august 2018)

PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — The now-disbanded voting integrity commission launched by the Trump administration uncovered no evidence to support claims of widespread voter fraud, according to an analysis of administration documents released Friday.

Martin, I slightly edited my post (you quoted) to directly reference Pitt and Philly which you were most concerned about........

You admit you can't believe things you read or hear anymore, yet you do believe the likelihood of voter fraud or irregularity is high in Penna and Ga.

On what basis? IMO it is because Trump set the table years ago, and the current Rep stance resonates with you because you have experienced voter fraud in the past...and no doubt some of that has happened in the past.

Here is a link to our Global News site https://globalnews.ca/news/7453410/us-election-trump-lawsuit-pennsylvania/

Here is a link to our Globe and Mail news site https://www.theglobeandmail.com/wor...-to-block-certification-of-pennsylvania/

You also focused on 4 areas you wanted to see investigated. They are doing none of that. They are taking a bludgeon to the results and bypassing your concerns entirely

There is some fraud (and some of them are honest mistakes) in every election. Double casting of ballots (one mail in, one in-person), voting in wrong precinct (which is not really fraud), someone not eligible to vote and casting a "provisional ballot", people who early vote and then die before election day (their votes are disallowed). And always, there are some miscounts -- happens every election and these are usually caught during the certification process (but probably not all). These numbers are always present but never amount to enough to change the election, especially when the lead is in the thousands of votes.

If there is a major software glitch, this will be discovered during the certification process where they sample audit a batch of votes -- run them through the machines and then handcount, I see republicans want 100% hand re-counts in Georgia and Wisconsin. That will take too long to complete -- they have until November 26th. Guess what, in previous election vote counting was still going on right up until November 25th. In fact, right now EVERY state is still counting votes.

I just saw an interview with a republican city commissioner who is leading the vote counting in Philadelphia. He says no evidence of fraud that he can see, but tons of lies and misinformation in social media -- and death threats!
He said there was an post that listed a bunch of dead people who voted in Philadelphia. He said, "hmm' and during a break, they checked the voter roles and the people listed hadn't voted! So he says stop listening to the lies and misinformation on social media and find sources that you can trust. That is the same refrain I am hearing from republican election officials all over the country.

There is no wide spread voter fraud. The conservative Heritage foundation did a 20 year study and found no evidence of fraud. Plus this is the most closely watched election in history I do believe. It is all about holding on to power by any means necessary. If it means ignoring the will of the people, that's OK, too.

Thanks for the clarification Kevin....

I always questioned the verification of the mail-in ballots. I have always questions the dems resistance to voter ID requirements. When I read about how lax the verification requirements are in PA and because there is a plausible explanation that the dems were in the PA courts wiring them to be even more "malleable"....my hair stands on end.

That alone is the basis for my personal concern. You can talk about this and that or the other...all your backing articles...but in this context, the explain-aways look like the cheating boyfriend explaining to his girlfriend in many detailed ways why she is a paranoid freak and should quit questioning him.

In all of your articles you site confirmations that you are fine with. You are extremely biased. You are a Canadian emotionally wedded to the election of a democrat American president and the defeat of the one that I voted for. No offense intended, but can you see how I might not be persuaded by the same articles.

It just looks too much like a duck. So let's look and see for sure. As I explained, I hope the courts and the DOJ look at every ballot.

Just in Penna or everywhere??

Voting is a two step process: a) register and then b) voting. Believe it or not, some people just don't have some form of government id with their picture on it! I don't understand it, but it is true. But there are steps that you have to do. There is nothing nefarious about it.

Voter requirements in the USA

Everyone has to be able to prove who they are to vote. Some states have less strict requirements than others. See the link where it is all discussed in detail.

DearJohn V and Kevin and Gavin

I personally think that arguing surgical points derived from propagandistic articles coming from all sides is futile.

Let me state my personal beliefs so that I may pass on some future debates....

IMO the worst political event in my lifetime to date is Watergate. Goons from an American Admin tried to gain advantage in an election by literal theft, probably known to Nixon when committed. That was a subversion of the constitution and our rights under it. If that wasnt bad enough...the elite pardoned the son of a bitch and justice was never served in front of the people stolen from. If I could have done it, I would have put Nixon on trial for trying to steal my constitutional guarantees.

I , PERSONALLY, am now looking at something that MIGHT POSSIBLY rival or exceed that. I want it cleared up to my satisfaction...not yours.
And what you are going to hate the worst is that I dont care how long it takes. If the govt is in abeyance for 5 years getting to the truth..fine with me.
If it takes 5 days...fine. A convincing truth to me is what matters. There are others like me. Millions.

Doh.

So people who dont think it's a rigged election, don't think so cause they hear it on a propaganda website, but somebody such as yourself, without any outside reading, thinks its rigged, and therefore, you want it straightened out.

But yet , without reading such a claim, how could you suspect something was wrong, only that you don't like the result .

Hence pro riggers get their ideas from somewhere too, as do virus deniers

Jessie Smollet got scolded for his lie, where are the burn him at the stake cries here?

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/postal-worker-recants-claims-fraud-024203321.html

Martin those articles only point to the broad lawsuit filed. Yes, it had commentary...but that does not take away the fact the Republicans have adopted a slash and burn approach to Penna's mail in ballots.....which is what I was asking you about. Do you support that approach.

They are seeking to invalidate them....not based on allegations of fraud but because it created a two tiered approach to processing votes they claim went against those who voted on election day.

This answers none of your stated concerns.

You distrust Penna's (and presumably Ga's) mail in ballots system so you welcome an investigation ...something I really have no issue with and in fact it really is no business of mine...though I may have opinions.

The lawsuit does none of that. It goes after the big picture. Invalidate all of Penna's mail in ballots. It is not about an investigation at all.

That is how I read it.

John V

Consider the Mueller investigation as a model.

Set up and lavishly fund a battery of politically opposing prosecutors. Allow them to launch and propel an investigation on a basis that includes several faulty warrants. And then let them "fish" for two years until there is nothing left to fish.

I am fine with employing that same model for this investigation. Except for the faulty warrants. I want SCOTUS oversight to prevent that.

Call it "slash and burn" if you like. I might call it "fish and squeeze."
Whatever it is...my personal desire is for every mail in ballot in PA to be evaluated. As well as the voting machines.

John V

Ps...Your opinion is fine. The expression of it is guaranteed under my constitution.
In addition FWIW2U, I consider Canada the most natural ally of the United of all.

I was just making a point.

5 years!!! You have gone over the deep end. On January 20th, trump's first term is over. If no president is able to be sworn in, then Nancy Peolsi (or whoever is speaker of the house) becomes president. Is that what you want?
In any case, it is a foregone conclusion that Joe Biden will be sworn in on January 20th. Anything else would be an assault on the constitution of this country.

Martin, In my opinion....

Trump is desperately hanging on because

1) he is currently raising money from his base supposedly for a legal challenge against voter fraud, however, 60% goes to the national committee to pay off campaign debt. And there's lots to repay. Stoking fraud fears plays into fund raising hands.

2) he is facing numerous lawsuits and investigations for financial impropriety. Imagine how he can gain sympathy from his base...first "they" stole the election, now "they" are ruining me financially

3) he cannot accept losing...full stop.

Nothing I have seen, read or heard points to significant election fraud happening in the states in question or elsewhere....and it seems the Reps have abandoned that tack. Now they are simply taking a bludgeon to the results by attacking mail in votes... after the fact and selectively. If the courts see no fraud and do not accept that all mail in ballots have to be rejected as unconstitutional ( because the controls around that process were sufficient to guard against organized fraud), they can still claim that potential fraud went uninvestigated

So Martin, while I respect your desire to be convinced for yourself this election was overwhelmingly fraud free (I'm leaving room for some occurence), the Penna lawsuit gives you none of that. I expect the courts will strike that down, leaving the Reps and Trump to still claim they were unfairly treated and that the election was stolen there.

Now I know we are "in the process" and should wait things out, but Rep tactics stain not only their party but the nation. This election will be written about and examined, just like Watergate. It will leave a legacy. And IMO it will not be kind to Trump or his inner circle.

John V

Of course you think that Trump is doing this and that. If Biden was behind and this race was coming down to suspect votes in rural Texas and Alabama counties...you would be convinced that those very same things were not true as applied to Biden.

Say what John? Naw. We both know better than that.

I dont know what to believe...But IT APPEARS That

Alito has asked that the late arriving votes be set aside. And he announced when SCOTUS deadlocked in the original filing that, PA may have circumvented the constitution. Amy Barrett should be up to speed soon. Let's see where that goes.

I am not over the deep end. I dont expect it to take 5 years. BUT MY POINT IS...if it did, I'd rather that than possibly witness a stolen election.

Oh my....

I just read that GA is setting up for a recount done by hand.
I hope that is actually true.

I saw contractors building a wall today. Can't keep Trump down

I read that also -- I think it is a major mistake. It is going to take a long time and hand counting is even more prone to errors (it is a lot of ballots!!). Normally what should be done is you grab a sample size of ballots (100 or maybe 1,000), run them through the machines and then count them manually. If it matches, then you can confident that the machines are calibrated and ready to go. But it is the decision of the secretary of state so there it is.

Trump lawyers not having much fun in court!

Read it too....WE AGREE ON NEWS!!!!

There is a bigger picture here. Even if the results are not overturned, there may have been a significant amount of fraud in many places.
Trump aside...I'd like to see that painstakingly looked at and cleaned up to whatever extent possible. Taking the time to count the votes one at a time and HOPEFULLY evaluate their legality is a good way to get the problem brought to light.

If there is no problem, then that comes to light and Biden goes in as the guy that clearly won...except for the QAnon people.

And then...there is WAPO, which is the libs QAnon.

Look at it as panning for gold in a river than long since delivered the main load. Your gonna dump your pan over and over again coming up with mud and silt and rocks. With little tiny sprinkles of gold sparsely sprinkled in very rarely.

The problem for you and I John. is that they dont even allow us to have a good pan. They just feed us mud. Our job is to believe its gold and try to sell it to someone else.

Several networks have reported the recount. Waiting to see if there is an asterisk or a withdrawal of that news.

I actually do not feel news deprived at all Martin. One of the benefits of living here is that we get all US networks as well as Canadian networks. As I am a news junkie I also check out important\interesting stuff on different sites.

Canadian and international sites and sites such as AP, Reuters etc have no dog in this fight and no interest in shaping public opinion. Ive saif this before and I will say it again. I find Al Jazeera a fair site for news. While its opinion editors are probably left to left of center...the news side reports facts as they are. Like Fox news does now

Not saying they are perfect or infallible or better...just they have no reasons to lie about things, or misrepresent

For example...Mike Pompeo is being excoriated by CNN for saying there would be a seamless transition to Trump's second term...then played that over and over....while ignoring the rest of his statement. Pompeo says it was a joke...and probably was. Bad timing and tasteless perhaps, but I give him the benefit of the doubt there and am dismayed by CNN's reporting there.

On the other hand, Fox Opinion side (not the news people) are all in on the massive election fraud conspiracy

I am totally against edited news clips designed to take things out of context and it taints everything the offenders say

John V

I like you and I want to help you any way that I can.

I am going to start by telling you that you are a highly biased liberal and if you think that a news site is good, it is because it feeds your bias.
Kid yourself, but dont kid ol' Marty.

Oh no?

You are a Canadian seemingly consumed by a US presidential election. Specifically by the election of your liberal candidate and I doubt that you ever supported a repub. Massive bias. Btw...USA Today has a liberal slant for sure. Though not nearly as blatant as CNN.

In other news.... I stumbled across a site that I really like. And you might also.

https://theconversation.com/us

It is apparently a bunch of academicians who post misc info to a website. Clearly liberal...Butt....they intersperse a lot of solid and interesting facts on a lot of topics.
I learned about the election of Rutherford Hayes there. That election was a firestorm like this current one except much worse I think. If you are unaware of this site and like learning for the sake of learning...which I think that you do...I think that you will enjoy it for being heavier on facts than propaganda.

Though there is propaganda. Where there are humans, there are distortions.



Martin

What Marty said is completely true , but its a bit like calling the pot black.

But lets flip Martys comment .

I am going to start by telling you that you are a highly biased liberal(conservative) and if you think that a news site is good, it is because it feeds your bias.
Kid yourself, but dont kid ol' FD

Marty, I didn't cherry pick NC and TX. That's not fair. I had to start somewhere, so I started with my own state. Then I looked at yours. I didn't choose them because I had any indication that they would prove a point I wanted to make. I just picked them without knowing where they would fit in the bigger picture. Since then, I have found more information to prove my point that this video is disinformation. Here's a site where the turnout is listed per state.
http://www.electproject.org/2020g

Pennsylvania is nowhere near the top. It is not even above Florida. Georgia is even lower. Maine and Minnesota are top with 79.2%. Iowa is next with 78.6%. In 2012, Iowa was at 72.7%. This guy is manipulating figures to deceive, pure and simple. That is not an opinion, an explain-away, a product of Trump Derangement Syndrome, a different way of looking at it, a product of my bias - it is an objective fact. Such things do exist. You say that this guy put up some broad strokes that were worth a look. I went to the trouble of taking a look and these broad strokes turned out to be completely bogus. You can hang your hat on that

You can get into broader arguments about the election, including those based on the assumption that any city where a Democratic candidate gets a lot of votes is clearly corrupt, but in the matter of this video, the facts are pretty clear.

Reading this back, I am aware that I am probably coming across as a bit of an arrogant jerk. Please excuse the way I express myself sometimes. I just feel so passionately about the need to cut through this kind of thing. If we throw our hands up and accept, as you seem to, that there is no such thing as an objective fact, only reflections of what one side or another wishes to be true, how can we as a society possibly tackle the challenges facing us. Videos like this serve only to exacerbate that problem.

I share your concerns about bias, John, and I may be able to help. Here is an easy method of discerning the leanings of a particular news site - the Trump Face Index.

The Index is based upon the selection of stock photos used to illustrate a story about the President. At sites where the President is, shall we say, not well-loved, such as CNN, picture editors will carefully draw from their stock of photographs designed to make the President resemble as much as possible a constipated orang utan. Over at Fox News, the most flattering images will be displayed on screen whenever he calls in. Along the line between these extremes of Constipated Orang-Utan and Chiselled Hero lie the "just the facts" news sites such as Reuters, where more neutral pictures will show up.

The index is not 100% accurate. If, in the act of doing whatever the story is about, the President happens to look heroic or just a bit orang-utany, then this will be reflected in the more neutral sites. It only really works when the photo editor has the discretion to choose a picture just to stick up next to a story about the President. However, as a rule of thumb, it works and illustrates the fact that bias finds expression in all kinds of ways.

Gavin

Do you think that all this is going to cause me to say..."Well, that proves up and settles it. The election was clean as a whistle. Joe is my guy. Load him up"
Put your time to a better use.

The guy's video was interesting. Your response is interesting too. But I'm sorry to say that neither his video or your opinion about it is a game changer.
I've thought that the integrity of the mail in ballots from the outset was sht. Remember "liar loans." It was that ridiculous sht that helped destroy the economy and led to a 27 trillion dollar debt. The borrower certified their own income statement.

Jaded as it may be...you cant trust people to police themselves without oversight. It is idiocy to assume that they will.

For the record...I do not trust any news site or any newscaster to be completely honest. They tell partial truths and then leave out "the rest of the story" for the purpose of inciting the emotions of their viewers and driving their ratings. It comes down to that for every single one of them. The rest of truth falls out in the seams between all the liars...sometimes. It's like the police. They arrive on a mob crime scene and separate people and then match up the stories.

I am getting really bored with having to spell out the obvious for you. Try to remember this so that you dont come at again over and over.

The Georgia hand recount: "Election workers will hand sort ballots into piles for each candidate, and the machines will count those piles."

OK, that makes me feel a little better. Having people count every vote is way more open to fraud than machine counting. Machine counting has its own issues -- software issues, hacking, etc. -- of course.
Segregating by candidate, counting and then machine counting might go a bit quicker than I first feared.

We wont what they are actually going to do until after they do it and maybe not even then.

Well now of course you're bored with it, that's why you're here in the first place.

But pray tell, where did you get suspicion of voter fraud from? Did you dream it up, or did you hear it somewhere.

Stop fartin around , you don't like the result, that's the only reason you're arguing.

I never said it was a game changer as far as the broader election is concerned or that it would convince you that Joe is your guy. I confined my observations to the video. It may be interesting, but it is also deliberately deceptive, and I've had it up to here with these ****s manipulating people with their lies. My beef is with the producer of this video and others like it, not you or anyone else.

I definitely admit I bring my own experiences to the table and filter what I see and hear through that. But I do look at more than one place when I chase an important story.

We all do.

And to answer your question, I remember where I was when Kennedy was shot, not sure I really remember Johnson except as Kennedy's follow up, disliked Nixon and Ford, actually admired Reagan for lots of his accomplisments (loved it when he faced down the air traffic controllers for example) ...thought Jimmy Carter honest but ineffective, did not mind HWB, thought Clinton was mostly the cat's meow, am mixed about Dubya, thought Obama was really good, and think Trump is abysmal.

In Canada I have voted Liberal and Conservative at both Federal and Provincial levels. I am currently a fan of Trudeau and the Liberals federally, but at the Provincial level, right now Conservative Doug Ford (the infamous Rob Ford's brother) looks good as a leader in how he handles COVID.

Just trying to say I look at what is happening currently and who may be the right person with the right policies. It actually works here because no matter who you vote for, parties here try to work the middle ground.

I will look at that site...

And Gavin...love the bias index you present. So true. I am eagerly awaiting Trump's mug shot <lol...it's a joke>

Why do you so often think that you have made these fantastic discoveries of things that most everyone else already knows?
It's comical but not funny.

That's all you get tonight. Yawn

Martin, I looked at that site and bookmarked it. Covers various countries and has a specific Canadian news site...so thank you

After looking at this site, and based on what I believe, we are still on opposite sides here....I have not seen, heard, read any proof of Trump and his inner circle's cries of voter fraud...in fact both Democrats and Republican counters in states under scrutiny insist the counts were fair. The courts too have thrown out almost all their cases and I have heard reports that some cases are simply being walked back\withdrawn by the plaintiffs

I also still see them now taking a bludgeon to mail in ballots...only in those states they want to attack...those that turned against Trump.

To maintain their cry of voter fraud....still being shouted out by Rep insiders, is not surprising (Make Lying Wrong Again) , but IMO it is damagimg and will have lating effects

I know you will say that I cannot get by my "liberal biases", but as Brian often said, "I could be right"

Of course you haven't. It is a liberal site. You only read liberal sites and listen to liberal sites and they bury a lot of things. You need to balance that by reading reading Newsmax or Breitbart or something similar. They amplify every tidbit that supports fraud. Sometimes you can find the truth in the mirror images between the opposing propagandas. They all tell some truth. But ultimately they have to give you what you want to fire up you and their ratings.

Like in art...use contrast.

It seems that they are going to start looking at GA. There are 2 repub senatorial candidates screaming for transparency. There is a repub guv and lt guv.
If they recount the votes there and qualify the votes in the Urban counties and Trump is still behind...that should end it.

If they are allowed to look for fraud and forgeries and find it (which they will)...and if it is enough to flip the margin...I have no idea what happens.

If they are only allowed to count the votes but not qualify them...QANON takes that and runs with it. Biden is already going to be hobbled. If the Repubs keep the senate, completely hobbled. Trump will possibly start some version of a network if he loses and it will have a rabid following and will bash Biden 24/7. If Biden presidency is to have any success, he needs to allow this vote examination to be transparent and clear it up as much as possible.

After the last 4 years of investigations and allegations and vitriol...one half of the country has no desire to "come together."
And that is just Biden's problems outside of his own party. I heard this morning that he was considering Bernie for Sec of Labor. Holy Sh t. That's a recipe for instant hell. LOL


My personal guess is that Biden ends up declared as president. That is mainly based on an interview with Ted Cruz where he made it fairly clear that Trump cannot clear all of the legal hurdles in front of him. He has presented to SCOTUS and is heralded as a constitutional scholar. He is partisan, so I suspect that if Trump had a good shot, Cruz would have said so. His assessment sounded sobering and true.

But I dunno. I've never lived through anything like this. Watergate was more turbulent but very different.
I've always wondered how much chicanery goes on in places like ATL and PHL. This may be a chance to actually see.

This is just my opinion, but I don't think anyone should look at Breitbart, etc. Nor should they look at any equivalent on the left. The idea that the only way to arrive at the truth is to look at two lies is deeply depressing. There are journalists who do actually strive to tell the truth. They deserve support instead of constant undermining by those who don't like the facts they report. A while ago, Mike Zaneski posted a link to a site that was a useful guide to finding these sources, Of course, the more rabid will claim that that site itself is biased

Martin the heart of the issue as I see it is that Trump has been crying voter fraud for a very long time

In 2016\17 the commission he set up to look for the millions of fraudulent votes he claimed were cast against him fizzled out with nothing of substance

Since then he has continously railed against voter fraud, and asserted the only way he was going to lose was if there was a massive fraud against him

Early in the morning of November 4 he addressed the nation and claimed a win...and said the only way he was losing was going to be if millions of fraudulent votes against him suddenly appeared

In recent days, no allegation of voter fraud has been accepted by the courts where lawsuits were filed...in fact cases were thrown out quickly and in some cases simply withdrawn

This was a follow up on last weeks claim that "starting Monday we will be launching court cases and we have lots of proof of fraud"...which has gone nowhere. No surprise as no one has uncovered any evidence and every state has chimed in saying their elections were fair and nor subject to fraud

As far as I understand, the Georgia recount is mandated because it was so close...not because of fraud allegations.

So they have now backed off fraud allegations in law courts (while maintaining their allegations in the court of public opinion) and are attacking the mail in ballot system. This is how they want to turn over the election results. Simply eliminate those mail in ballots that mostly voted against him....not in any state he won where there are mail in ballots mind you, just in those states that turned against him.

While the allegations of fraud were being pursued, I can see and supported holding back a concession.

But the tactic of trying to nullify millions of votes in states that did not support him is not the hallmark of someone who believes in democracy or a party that believes they are subject to the will of the people

You can argue process and "enlightenment" all you want at this point. But apart from the mandated recount in Georgia you won't get that. Not in Penna or elsewhere wherever they may get mandated or requested recounts . Fraud lawsuits are not what they are after anymore because they have no proof and the courts have thrown out their claims where they were launched.

They are now claiming the election procedures in Penna were unconstitutional.That is their strategy.

Like it or not, that is now the side you are on.

Furthermore, The RNC and Trump are raising monies now for the legal challenge fund, they say, but Reuters highlighted the fine print which says it goes into a Trump Pac and the national RNC first, then any donation amount of (I think it was) $8.000 goes to this fund. Big lie in the bold print offset by weasel words in the fine print that eliminate their use of funds pledge.

In closing, I am all for fair and due process, but when it is based on lies and attempts to disenfranchise voters, it cannot be tolerated.

I know I'm not going to convince you, but after this is all over, the allegations will linger and the USA will continue to be divided and many will not trust the system anymore.

History will show us what unfolds...but whatever happens, this is a seminal moment for the USA.

May God be with you all.

Everything is biased. I dont think that any journalist sticks to the truth. They are like lawyers. If they stick to only the truth, presented without emotional editing through vocal tones and countenances...they will lose the case or the ratings war. The guy that lies and/or distorts is likely the guy that wins in both fields. Ugly but true.

If you watch CNN, you are watching a propaganda machine that is a clear extension of the DNC.
Gavin, you are liberal. If you believe something is accurate reporting, it feeds your bias. I promise.

I have conservative friends who will not watch "that lying crap" on CNN, MSNBC etc. I suggest to them that is the only way to have a chance of finding out "the rest of the story." What I've noticed is that they cant bear to watch it at an emotional level. If a person cant watch an opposition propaganda, then they are making themselves a "useful idiot" to a different set of propagandists.

You heard it here. Dispute it if you like, but such is the reality of this world.

John V

Sorry but I personally believe that your post is largely side issues and confusion.

The Heart of the issue is the legitimacy of the ballots cast. Everything else is a sideshow.
Anyone who thinks that the Atlanta and Philadelphia machines are not going to have people very willing to falsify mail-in ballots is a fool living in a make-believe world.

The question is....did they falsify enough to matter?

So the HEART OF THE MATTER is exactly who filled out each and every one of those ballots and signed them.

I've no idea where this goes, but I am not concerned with what Donald Trump or Joe Biden thinks or says. Or anyone else.
My concern is those ballots.


If your side is successful at thwarting an in-depth look at those ballots...then that will be that. Except that Biden will then have to try to govern with the rumors of a stolen election never stopping.

But that is not what they are after in their lawsuit Martin. If it was a surgical attack on voter fraud that would be different and I would be fine with it

The Penna lawsuit is saying that Penna's mail in ballot system is unconstitutional because it created 2 classes of voters subject to different rules....and seeks to simply disqualify them en masse without any evidence of fraud...just because they were handled differently

Dont let the trees block the view of the forest.

That is one lawsuit. There are others.
It is about whether an election was stolen or not. Elections have state regulations in place prior to elections. Ballots that do not comply with those rules are not supposed to be counted. To my understanding the PA courts changed the rules without the required legislative process. That is one suit. That makes the late arriving ballots non-compliant.

Other lawsuits said that standards vary from one county to another and that caused non-compliance per federal law as established during the W-Gore fiasco. I dont truly understand that.

Here is the nut of it...
The RNC is trying to chase down and disqualify all ballots that are falsified or Non-compliant with federal law or state law. If a ballot is found to be truthful and compiiant...it counts. If not...it doesnt.

I see no problem with that.