JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Musician Message Forum BIAB version?

Years ago, my brother-in-law observed how an Arranger Keyboard is used... and he proclaimed to me... isn't that cheating? I replied, "Frank Sinatra does not play all those instruments... nor does he lead the band." The idea, as presented earlier, is to create the best product possible by using the tools available... legally. Some would say that having a multi-track recorder... so you could use or eliminate certain tracks... is not "Kosher!"

To your point, FD... if I had all the resources available to me that money could buy... and had the money to acquire those professional resources, if I believed enough in the song, I would do it. I know that is an over-simplification but we are trying to convince each other if using BIAB and other, similar products is good or bad. I think the method is eventually insignificant if the final result is memorable, lasting and leads to a song that generates income sufficient to recoup the proceeds that went into it's production and promotion. (I don't claim to know diddly about promotion but understand it takes influence, power and enormous sums of cash.)

Remember Tiny Tim and his ridiculous Uke? Then there was "Pants On the Ground"... "One Note Samba".... the list is endless. Some required massive backing, some... not so much. Most eventually faded into the history of music.
Those that survive for decades, even centuries... are the benchmark I compare the songs or compositions I hear at JPF (or other sites) from time to time. We are lucky to have a few people here with that ability to eventually succeed.

Have a great weekend. ----Dave

Steve,

BIAB is a great tool, but it has some serious drawbacks as well. Styles are limited, with an emphasis on Jazz. For simple Country ballads it's OK, with some serious tweaking. The solos (particularly the guitars) are way over-played. If you can play your own solos you'll be fine.

Having said that, BIAB is a great tool for backing tracks for MIDI productions. Here is an example of that:

https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/track/esperanza


Regards,

Bob

What I did was buy the bare bones version, and purchase the individual 'real tracks' and 'real drums' that I actually use when I actually use them, on a song by song basis.

You should use BIAB for scratch demos only, never for anything that you are going to release, for two reasons. The resolution of the real tracks are only 16 bit, and the real tracks and real drum tracks are all public domain. You could create a cool song, and the backing tracks could be sampled and nothing you can do about it, afaik.

Also, if you get the audiophile the bit resolution might be better. BIAB is better for more traditional styles. But, if you want of their real tracks, they are 'public domain' because you are drawing from a pool of pre-recordings that is in all BIAB users possession, so it can't be copyrighted, ( but the melody and vocals and any track you lay on top of BIAB, those are protected, and I"m talking about an SR copyright ).

Thanks for the feedback.

I bought the BIAB Ultrapak and like it real well so far.

On the one song that I have started, I am using BIAB as a foundation for the entire song.
I laid it down as good as I could and then started applying EZkeys where BIAB came up short.

BIAB put down a decent drum track, decent bass track, surprisingly good rhythm guitar track, good piano track in spots. The instrument solos were kind of soupy and/or fragmented
.
So I went into EZKEYS and put down piano fills and piano background. What I found was that I can get a pretty good "passable" sound with EZKEYS out-of-the-box but have to go into the midi editor to tailor it to the song. It is tedious but fun and providing a nice result.

For other instruments such as strings, I am using midipaks from EZKEYS that are made for strings and dropping other instruments such as violins on them from the plug-ins in my DAW.

Am still deep in the learning curve but very happy with the softwares.

The softwares provide hours of in-the-moment entertainment.
Beyond the song, part of the entertainment is the mere fascination with what the software can do.


If someone asked me which software was a better songwriting tool...I would suggest EZ keys. It is faster and more to-the point for songwriting. ...imho.
Inspired by a thread here, I am going to try to write to a "hit" formula on my next song using EZKEYS. Start with a "hook." VCVCBC. Complete chorus first. Then Verses. Then bridge.
Should be fun.

Thanks for the update, Marty, especially regarding EZ Keys. I looked into that a while back but couldn't really understand what it was and how you used it. I have heard tracks made with it and they tended to sound a bit formulaic. That might have had nothing to do with the program, of course, but the idea of combining it with BIAB is interesting.

Gavin

Per my opinion.

To my ear, EZ KEYS produces compositions that sound more like a real player. And you can sort through the variations to find what works for you much faster than BIAB. Also, you can piece things together much quicker and easier in EZ KEYS. And, if you find four or five things that you like for the same song, you can file them more easily and efficiently in EZKEYS and return to them later. imho.

Both programs are great.

I have used BIAB for the foundation of the song especially for styles I don't play well, and then remove strings or bass or redo drums to my liking. If you use it as a tool and not simply as a finished product you can produce your own music and sound more professional. To do that, you need to be able to edit and play midi which if you are serious about your craft is worth learning and all those piano lessons become important. Without keyboard skills it makes it very difficult to get there. To build a song in a daw from scratch is a lot of work, which is how I do most of my songs, where BIAB will get you there faster, again you need to learn the program and as much music theory you can to get a good result. Or get someone to do some tracks and you build on it from there. Today's software, I use the latest Cubase pro, which include good drum tracks to insert and edit at will, and the plethora of sounds makes only one midi keyboard necessary to produce a great sound except in some older analog needs.

I never cease to be amazed at all the ways song and melody creators have available to them now. The quandary is on making the most cost effective decision combined with the learning curve needed to "master the beast." I have always kept within the bounds of Yamaha Arranger Keyboards, particularly the PSR series as opposed to the Tyros and Genos models with all their super capabilities. Despite all that, the need to select the best Computer and Operating System to take the work to the next level after the recording is complete... and equally important, the Microphone Brand and Type to bring out the best vocal possible... are all important factors to my way of thinking.

I tend to stay with the same machine until I recognize it can no longer compete, sound-wise or due to other limitations. My first PSR machine relied on floppy discs, had no USB port and weighed a ton. It did have the best manual. Fortunately, the following PSR machines I acquired had the same basic layout, knobs, switches, ports, etc. so the learning curve was fairly smooth. The sound and variety of the "available instruments" always seems to bet better but Yamaha is very conservative and their "country sounding instruments" don't offer the wide variety I would prefer when I work in that genre. No Dobro or Resonators and the Fiddles don't offer much variety. Banjos are usually adequate... but just so. Fortunately, their guitars have improved on a broad front with many great sounding types now available.

Thanks to Marty, I will explore EZ Keys and see if it might be of interest. Best of luck to all of you... and you bet, I envy those of you who play "real instruments" and can combine them with other forms of backing. Arthritic fingers keep me out of that league but I do my best to make up for it with fresh ideas and interesting lyrics.

Regards, ----Dave

On my first all-in BIAB and EZKEYS song...

I focused in on drums this morning with BIAB. The program is so good that it is strange. Should have gotten into this a few years back.

And I picked up a good tip regarding using "SilenceRT" as a placeholder on the PG forum from a post done by a Mr Floyd Jane.

Hi Jethro,
I have a combination of slight ADD and a dumb left hand. In English this means that while I learn some things easily, and very well, I can't learn other because my mind isn't engaged enough to spend the time to learn them; and I had an accident when I was young that broke my left wrist and left me with nerve damage making my left hand slightly behind my brain. This rules out music theory and playing any 2 handed instrument. I did play everything brass for about 3 years, and not very well, but after losing my pitch in Vietnam from big guns giving me cracked and scarred eardrums, I lost all interest in playing for 30+ years until I started writing lyrics again in 2001.
To be honest, I would love to have been able to play piano, guitar, or most of all sax; but it was never meant to be. I use BIAB as a very basic tool to generate chords and percussion in styles that fit my lyrics and the melody comes from my vocals/my head.

Morning, John:

You have a lot "on your plate" but at least we have ways to overcome most of those obstacles. In my case, there is no cure for lack of talent. LOL!

All the best, ----Dave

Hi Dave,
Don't be in such a hurry to put yourself down. There are too many people who are willing to do that for any of us. Everyone has talents.