JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Remember The Gibson Raid!

Yes,
Even worse is the Government suing the Big Banks for the housing mess. And collecting. Instead of putting blame where it belongs, the people that took out mortgages they had no business getting and no way to pay for, the government put it on the big banks. It was the Liberal's in Congress that forced banks to make loans, and then sue them for the crash. Well you can't sue poor people can you?

Enough blame to go around in that mess Ray.

You have to add the mortgage brokers and those banks that allowed and\or encouraged folks to take out mortgages AND the investment banks that then pooled those mortgages and sold them as financial instruments.

Mortgage brokers, originating banks (those that first underwrote the mortgage) and investment banks earned huge fees doing what they did.

The problem was that the brokers and smaller banks gave out mortgages to people who had absolutely no business borrowing money to either buy or re finance their houses...but the brokerage and syndication fees were far too sweet to pass up. Remember too that a lot of the mortgage problems were cause by folks "going underwater" when their house values fell.

As far as "the Liberal's in Congress that forced banks to make loans, then sued them for the crash"....well, maybe you can enlighten me here. Maybe you can name those Liberals, name the banks, and point me at relevant legislation and lawsuits.

Sorry John,
Wall Street, the Mortgage Companies, the Banks, the Builders, none of those put a gun to the head of the buyers forcing them to take out a loan! I know, we, my wife and I bought a house around that time. It was our decision, no one else's. No one came to our door, selling a mortgage! It was reported at the time, that people took out loans where they only had to pay the interest on the loan! I thought at the time, how stupid is that, you would never get it paid off. The Liberal News never reported the half of it. At a certain time, you had to start paying the principal and interest. Loads of people couldn't pay the full amount and were for-closed on. The Government sold them a bill of goods and as usual the people bought it. If you remember Lehman Brothers lost 600 billion dollars and went bankrupt. Once more John, with feeling, it was the people who took out the Liar Loans as they were called, so think it over John, if you take out a loan and can't pay it, you are the one to blame. Not The Banks.

One more thing John, the Banks are closely regulated by Law. Who do you thing relaxed the rules? Not the Banks.

Still pissed off about that!

No one put a gun to the heads of Lehman Brothers or Bear Stearns who pooled all these toxic mortgages into a financial instrument and sold them to investors....even as they knew it was crap. No one needed to put a gun to their heads because the fees they earned from this activity were huge...in fact, it was one of the biggest if not the biggest source of revenues for Bear.

And the fact they knew they were syndicating crap was one of the reasons the government went after them

Lehman was also in the game, and went down because of their client redemptions of investments in these funds....which then also happened to Bear. Their clients got wind of their toxic holdings and wanted their money back. The ONLY way to do that was to sell this crap, but there were no buyers because everybody knew it was crap

As I said, plenty of blame to go around...note I did not absolve those who signed on that dotted line....just added others to share the blame

But what I asked you was to tell me about "the Liberal's in Congress that forced banks to make loans, then sued them for the crash"

John:

I do remember the Gibson raid. Thought it was politically motivated then and still believe it today. I also agree with Ray about the Government causing the housing bubble. We need to regulate Banks and Lenders but to have the Government competing in the same market with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is unfair, unwise and downright corrupt.

Even today, when our economy looks like it might emerge from the recession caused by our own Government... I see ads on TV from a relatively well known company (used to be big software guys in personal accounting) now stating that the rules have been relaxed for HARP loans. These are loans for folks who do not really have the money to buy a home and are probably going to default soon after taking out such a loan.

So here we go again, perpetrating through our government of liars, thieves and outright fools, another financial debacle that we, the voting public, will have to pay for in bail outs, forfeitures and increased taxes. I won't even talk about the IRS and their war against the Tea Party.

Now is the time to consider carefully what the person you are voting for really "stands for."

We are a nation in deep trouble.

I'm not diving into the middle of this political stuff, other than to say, I was pretty close to this one. Several friends and songwriters I know work at Gibson and the thing is EVERY guitar maker, Taylor, Martin, etc. were using the SAME FINGERBOARD BLANKS. So of course this was politically motivated.

Henry is a big Republican and supporter of things like the Tea Party. So yes, he was a target just like every Republican has been a target of this administration since day one and they make no bones about it.

And as usual they told Henry "$50,000 would make it go away." Which is what happened. Draw your own conclusions.

Enough said. All you're going to get from me.

MAB

You can definitely add the government and its loosening of banking regulations coupled with their lax oversight to the mix Dave.

In Canada we managed better precisely because our banking system is more heavily regulated.

It may also help that our system is smaller and national. When you have lots of smaller, regional banks, all competing to give out mortgages, then their due diligence tends to suffer. By that I mean they will not challenge seemingly high appraisals, check credit, verify employment etc....something a prudent lender would do. And anyway, they simply off loaded (sold) their mortgages to the likes of Lehman and Bear, so they got rid of their default risk...so why not cut corners?

The link I posted actually uncovered union links...

The theory goes that the unions were striking at Gibson because Tennessee is a "right to work" state...using the government as a hammer

No idea what the real truth is...just thought it an interesting theory

Well John,
Two names. Chris Dodd and Barney Frank. You really need to take off your Rose Colored Glasses. Frank and Dodd thought they could allow loans to be made, bought up by Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, and all would be well in Uptopia! But paying the freight by too many on those mortgages was a total bust. They are still touting re-financing those loan at a lower rate. Guess what. The people still can't afford them! Dirty Politics is alive and well.

Gee Ray, last I knew, regulations named after Dodd & Frank were passed AFTER the 2008 crash we are talking about, and was all about increasing oversight over and transparency of the financial system. There is nothing in that legislation I know of that forces banks to lend monies

Is there something they were responsible for that caused the 2008 mess??

Actually John,
The Liberal's, Progressives, Democrats, and Communists have been setting the agenda in the country for the last 100 years. So the crash in 2008 is the end result of those policies. The over 18 trillion dollar federal debt is no mirage. The housing mess is no mirage. And the "Experts" are at it again. They are already trying to let people take out mortgages again with no money down and no way to pay for it! So who do you blame for the 18 Trillion Dollar Federal Debt. And if you missed it, Socalisim was such a smashing success in the old Soviet the Soviet Union no longer exists.

As has been said from time to time, the Inmates are running the Asylum. Another one is: Those that don't learn from history are bound to repeat it. You are just Re-Arranging the Deck Chairs on the Titanic. So are the Politicians.

Ronald Reagan, who used to be a Liberal Democrat, until he learned the truth said the most dangerous sentence in the English Language was, I'M FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND I'M HERE TO HELP YOU.

And last John, the Liberal's, Progressives, Democrats, and Communists want to run the Country but they want the Conservatives and Republicans to pay for it. Obama wants to Re-Distribute the Wealth. So far he has sent it to China, Mexico, India, Canada, and other various places!

But John. Keep blaming everyone but who is really to blame, no?

You are like a moving target Ray

So if I get you right, we have moved from you placing all the blame for the 2008 financial crash on those people who took out mortgages they could not afford to all those left wing pinkos who have been running the country for 100 years now, running up an 18 trillion dollar deficit, and they want the conservatives and Republicans to pay for it.

I just did a simple exercise

Since the Republic was formed, there have been 44 presidents

18 were Republican,16 were Democrats, and there were 10 from other parties.


Since WWII,

Republican Dwight D Eisenhower=====1953 to 1961=====8 years
Republican Richard Nixon===========1969 to 1974=====6 years
Republican Gerald Ford=============1974 to 1977=====2 years (Finished Nixon's term, years rounded)
Republican Ronald Reagan===========1981 to 1989=====8 years
Republican George H Bush===========1989 to 1993=====4 years
Republican George W Bush===========2001 to 2009=====8 years

Democrats Harry S Truman==========1945 to 1953=====8 years
Democrats John F Kennedy==========1961 to 1963=====3 years
Democrats Lyndon B Johnson========1963 to 1969=====5 Years
Democrats Jimmy Carter============1977 to 1981=====4 years
Democrats Bill Clinton============1993 to 2001=====8 years
Democrats Barack Obama============2009 to now

When Barack Obama finishes his term, the split will be exactly equal since WWII

So Ray, your argument is that the inmates have been running the asylum for many years, running up huge deficits, and they want the Republicans and conservatives to pay...

So EXACTLY who are you talking about?

Here's some more stats Ray

Percentage numbers is debt to total GDP (ratio means the percentage of public debt to the country's annual economic output...roughly equivalent to its calculating your debt as a percentage of your annual income) at beginning and end of presidency, and the increase in public debt during their presidency, in unadjusted billions of dollars. To adjust you'd have to take the dollar increase and adjust for inflation.

So under Dwight D Eisenhower, public debt went from 71.4% of GDP down to 55.2%, while in actual dollars, it went up by 26 billion dollars. So under his watch, the debt went up, but the economy also expanded significantly. We know historically this was true, so the numbers do reflect reality.

Note too that in today's dollars 26 billion then is about 205 billion today (1961 $1 = $7.87 today)

Under Nixon\Ford, Reagan and the 2 Bushes, the percentage of public debt to GDP and the absolute dollar debt jumped....most significantly by 20% under Reagan and 30% under Dubja. This meas that the economy contracted at a rate higher than the increase in public debt, or put another way, economic expansion was not keeping up with the growth in public debt.

Moving on the the Democrats, under all except Obama (who had to deal with 2 wars left him by Bush and the 2008 crash), you can clearly see that the percentage of public debt to GDP went DOWN, even though the absolute levels of debt increased. This means that economic expansion more than offset the increase in debt.


Republican Dwight D Eisenhower=====71.4%===55.2%====+26
Republican Richard Nixon===========38.6%===Finished by Gerald Ford
Republican Gerald Ford=============38.6%===35.8%====+288
Republican Ronald Reagan===========32.5%===53.1%====+1873
Republican George H Bush===========53.1%===66.1%====+1483
Republican George W Bush===========56.4%===84.2%====+6106

So Republicans upped the public debt by $9776 billion in unadjusted dollars during their years in government


Democrats Harry S Truman===========93.1%===71.4%====+13
Democrats John F Kennedy===========55.2%===Finished by LBJ
Democrats Lyndon B Johnson=========55.2%===38.6%====+73
Democrats Jimmy Carter=============35.8%===32.5%====+288
Democrats Bill Clinton=============66.1%===56.4%====+1,419
Democrats Barack Obama=============84.2%===102.7%===+6,061

Democrats upped the public debt by $7854 in unadjusted billions of dollars

9776 + 7854 = 17630 Billion dollars is close to your 18 trillion public debt.

So under Republicans presidencies, the Federal governments ran up about 55.5% of it, while under Democrats presidencies, they ran up the rest. AND under Republicans, the economy was insufficiently robust to offset the debt increase

Check out your hero Ronald Reagan, who in his 8 years increased the public debt by 1873 billion, which is more than Truman, Kennedy\LBJ, Carter and Clinton combined...who increased it by 1793 billion but they did it over 4 presidencies and 28 years.

Again Ray, who are these Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, and Communists and Lunatics of which you speak?

Boy John, looks like you fell into Ray's kettle.

Naw Ben, not at all

There was a recent thread Ray played with in the same vein. When I asked him why, he explained things were a bit boring around here and he was just trying to get things spiced up some.

So I expect this is decidedly NOT a case of a Good 'ole Boy dragging me down to his level of ignorance, then trying to beat me with his experience

My reaction is simply based on giving the customer what they want. So directly to your comment, I am not so much jumping into the kettle as I am kicking it over and spilling its content so it can fertilize the fields.

Hoping for a good yield

Wow,
John I see I can't fool you. Some exciting news. I have some Prime Waterfront Property in South Florida that just came on the market and a Bridge in Brooklyn that is an even better bargain! And just for this sale you will need no money down! Just a one time cash payment up front will buy either one! Don't tell anyone, we don't want a huge rush on the bargains! Just for you John and you get to name the price! See you soon John.

No thanks Ray

Like you, I see the value in being a broker here. That way I can earn big commissions and fees and move on, leaving others like the home owner, bridge owner, bank, and the economy holding the bag.

Hey Ray, all games aside...some good reading here


http://www.economicpredictions.org/who-is-to-blame-for-the-financial-crisis.htm


http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1877351_1877350_1877339,00.html


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/business/economy/26inquiry.html?_r=0


http://www.investopedia.com/articles/07/subprime-blame.asp

Well John,
That old saying WHAT A TANGLED WEB WE WEAVE, WHEN FIRST WE PRACTICE TO DECEIVE is alive and well.

A few Decades ago there was a short blurb on the News that a lot of black people couldn't get a mortgage. That may have been when Dan Rather was still at CBS.

Banks are or were at that time closely regulated.
Now why is/was that? Because people like you and me who don't have oodles of money but have some and put it into banks for saving and their retirement.

But because of some/many people that can't qualify for a mortgage have to get by with a little less.

So along comes (Jones), Dodd and Frank who decide to fix it so those people can qualify for a mortgage. So now the money that you and me struggle to save is loaned out to risky borrowers and the Government will back those loans.

So too many of those borrowers are exactly like the banks said, not qualified. So the huge banks like Lehman Brothers are out billions of money.

So now the Government has to bail out the banks who had nothing to do with all those risky loans but get the blame because the Government, who is wholly to blame can't be found.

There was a movie back in the 50's that may explain it all too well. THE TROUBLE WITH HARRY by Hitchcock. It seems Harry was, well dead and not in the best place so the town people decided to move him elsewhere. However everywhere they moved him proved unsatisfactory because it entailed another problem. So after several attempts they finally put him back where he was at first and let it go. Kinda like Washington. They try to fix one problem and another crops up.

Let me help you out on your side of the kettle Ray

In 1977, the Community Reinvestment Act, sponsored by the Democrats, and signed into law by Jimmy Carter, and amended a few times since, was enacted to reduce discriminatory credit practices against low-income neighborhoods and encourage lending in communities where the financial institutions were chartered. But it also specifically stated lending activities had to be consistent with safe and sound business practices.


Earlier, in 1938 Fannie Mae was established to allow mortgages to be securitized (pooled and sold as a package to investors), and in 1970 Freddie Mac was established to expand that market....yes enacted by Richard Milhouse Nixon


In 1982, mortgage regulations were changed to allow new mortgage loan types such as adjustable-rate mortgages (this allowed low low rates which then escalated later in the term), balloon-payments and interest-only mortgages that allowed flexible and low cost payments...........yes thank you Ronald Reagan

In 1992, the Housing and Community Development Act established an affordable housing loan mandate for both Freddie and Fannie..........yes the accolades here belong to George Bush. BTW in his notes to signing the legislation he did urge prudence on the part of all players.

And last but not least, in 1999 Bill Clinton, (finally another Democrat), repealed part of the Glass Steagall Act to allow banks to play harder with their clients money by allowing them to also operate investment banks.

Back to Frank and Dodd

Christopher Dodd, D, CT, had absolutely nothing to do with any financial legislation sponsorship before 2008, when he began working on issues related to his eventual sponsorship of the Dodd Frank Act.

Barney Frank, D. ME, was chair of the House Financial Services Committee (2007–2011) and a sponsor of the act named after him

You can see here what it does

http://www.cftc.gov/lawregulation/doddfrankact/index.htm


The above shows key government failures in setting the stage for vastly expanded house ownership and the ability to qualify for a mortgage...

...well intentioned BUT

... it was the private sector that of course took the liberties they could with it. It is after all, a free enterprise system and it is a time honoured US tradition to take full advantage of legislation.

These mortgage liberties were taken by everyone along the chain...from those who signed on the dotted line, to mortgage agents and brokers, lenders, syndicators, investment banks, and coupled with poor oversight by the SEC and other regulators, ...well everyone is happily travelling hell in a hand basket, except some, like the too big to fail bankers, are going first class.


...quick aside....have you looked at the way US veterans are basically defrauded out of their education funds by unscrupulous operators (oh wait, it is the veteran's fault, they did sign on the dotted line)....

Some Post John,
As I said. The Trouble with Harry ,no? For another opinion The Road To Hell is Paved With Good Intentions, no? You better stay out of Finance John, you don't know nothing about it. Except the Greek Part. It appears it is all Greek to you. The Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, and Communists have been trying to fix the problem. However it was tried in the Old Soviet Union. It was such a smashing success the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore.

A lot of people were begging for relief. Probably started back in the 30's after the Stock Market Crash. A lot of people knew those social programs wouldn't work but we got them.
So where are we today John? Why haven't all those Programs worked? Stay Tuned John.

And to add more fuel to the fire have you looked at the problems in the Mid-East? They are supposedly begging for relief. So they think the West can just take them all in. It is a scam, pure and simple.

On top of that the Former President is blasting Trump's stance on illegal immigration. It is purely disgusting that the the Mexicans can come here and then think they own the place. And the Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, and Communists all want to give away the store. The American people are fed up. Got it John?

All I got is that in this one sided discussion of ours (I really can not accord your side a discussion...it's more like some robot like repetitive diatribe) is that you are one pissed of individual, slinging McCarthy like at some un named Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, and Communists who seem to have ruined your personal idea of the American way of life.

No matter that I showed you in black and white that your Republicans probably did more to get you into your current financial mess with a significantly higher contribution to your public debt and I'll add a few wars they just had to get into. I also showed you the Democrats, the financial system AND the gullible signatories cannot escape their share of blame because the Republicans and conservatives did not do this by themselves either.

That you cannot or refuse to see this is astounding.

Guess it is far simpler, or perhaps better said, simple minded, to blame some unidentified bogymen you can conveniently label as Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, and Communists....cause, well, you know, no one likes Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, Communists, (insert your favourite ethnic slur(s) here), Red Pop and blue smarties.

John,
If I had been a Manager at Gibson I would tell the Craftsmen that these people raiding the place were taking away their lively hood and to go home and get their guns, come back and be prepared to use them. Most likely the Culprits will never be prosocuted for that atrocity but they should. Now my solution probably will never fit your politically correct stance.

John, when Marco Polo traveled from Italy to China he did most of his traveling by water because of Highway Men, Bandits, Robbers, Thieves, and other all around nice guys. Today nothing's changed, John.

The democrats had the congress for 40 years from 1954 to 1994. In that time the democrats had overwhelming majorities in both houses. So why are things still not fixed?

Today wages are an average 6.5 percent less than 2007 and about 20 percent less since 1978. But we have Obama Care where more people have health insurance with maybe a $100.00 per month payment with a $20,000.00 deductible. And last but not least people have the 29 hour work week, if they have a job at all. Make sense John?

Ray,

1) had you been a manager at Gibson and done that you would have been arrested for inciting violence and resisting lawful authority. The proper place to fight this kind of injustice, which it definitely was IMO because otherwise I would not have brought it up, is a three pronged attack in a court of law, in the court of public opinion, and through the use of lobbyists.


2) You simply have no idea of Marco Polo do you. The ONLY reason Marco Polo could even travel the silk road was because of what is known as the Pax Mongolia which placed almost all of it under the rule of the Mongols...who kept it mostly safe for travelers and traders, and the only time he traveled by water was on the way home...on a Mongol ship. BTW, if you really know your history, you would admire the Mongols for what they accomplished, and the influence they had in spreading knowledge and know how from East to West and West to East. You would admire them for their tolerance for all religions too. You may not like how they got there, but war and conquest is an ugly business, one in which they excelled. Once they did however, they ruled their empire reasonably well.


3) Gee Ray, you are mostly right there...but I lived those years and things were, by and large pretty good. Since 1994, for 21 years now, it has been mostly flipped and Republicans are in control. Why has it not been fixed? In fact, things are worse now then when they started in 1994

Once more with feeling,
If all the Liberal Policies are working why are things no better than in the 1930's? Lyndon Johnson decided to have a war on Poverty. So far the progress is no better than when he was elected.
If anything is better today it is because of the Government raising the National Debt and putting off total disaster until that horse dies and we look like Greece in the present or Rome in the past. The Government is already clammering to raise the National Debt again. Because why John? With the Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, and Communists running the country for the last 100 years why is everything still no better? Having to raise the National debt, (Again) is a glaring failure of Liberal Politics.

Marco Polo knew the facts and so do I. And today there is somebody trying to separate you from your money, the easy way.

I know it's tough when the conservatives tell it like it is and tell you if you want to make it you have to get off your *ss and work. Hard I know but it is the only game in town. Savvy John?

P.S John. My main aim here is to inform. So you don't have to learn from the expensive School of Hard Knocks. I know it is too late for you as Rome is burning but maybe some of the younger folks will avoid many of the pitfalls awaiting them, Just Like Marco Polo. Have a nice day, John!

Wow!

Back in the day, before political correctness, when kids could be kids and say anything they wanted... and "defend their honor" by calling out the schoolyard bully with "fisticuffs"... all the guys would shout, "Fight, fight!" and everyone would come running except the teachers. They would let it continue until or if things got a little too one-sided or rough.

No, it was not perfect... but it built character and taught many of us some pretty good lessons. I've been on the receiving end as well as the sending end of these scuffles. It wasn't always fair... but the world we live in is not always fair.

My point? This back and forth struggle reminds me a great deal of those schoolyard fights back in the 1940's. (Yeah, I'm that dang old... and I feel it every day.)

Now, why don't you two declare that it is a "standoff" and shake hands? I respect both guys and both opinions.

B-T-W... you are never going to change your mindset/opinion... or that of your adversary! LOL!

All my best to both of you... Good Fight! ----Dave

If you are doing all this in the spirit of educating young people, you owe it to them to be far better informed then you appear to be.

You also owe it to them to actually convey it to them in a rational, cohesive and balanced way instead of simply spouting disjointed rhetoric that seems to be a cut and paste job taken from some right wing conspiracy rag that hates everyone not like them

I had heard about Gibson getting into trouble and of course this all makes for interesting armchair watching. However, how certain are you MAB that all these companies are getting fingerboard blanks from the same place? If this were true, then I got amazingly deceived by my tours of the Taylor Guitars factory where you can actually see the wood getting milled on their CNC machines, fingerboards included. Maybe you mean how or where they all source their wood?

As for the whole back and forth with John and Ray...

John is backing up his statements with links and facts that support his view. Ray, I'm waiting for actual links and facts that prove your view(s). Why am I interested? Because I was a victim of the system a few years ago. I lost everything and it wasn't due to a lack of working my ass off. It was due to a judicial system that did not uphold the letter of the law.

The cartoon message is: Knowledge Is Power.

Um, Well,
Now it isn't posted anywhere that in the Housing Mess that those that took out Mortgages were to blame when they didn't have the money to pay for it. It should be self evident.

Whats-his-name said that there was plenty of blame to go around. Once again there was no actual news stories that put the blame on those that relaxed the rules so more people could take out a mortgage. There was a news brief one time about people getting loans and only had to pay the interest on the loan. It must have been all of 3 seconds.

I did read two stories, one in AARP and maybe one in Consumer Reports that the people that got interest only loans were complaining when they had to start paying the full amount, about double of what they started out with and couldn't afford the full payments. I'm sure all of them knew what would happen but did it anyway. so where is the blame? I put the blame on those that relaxed the rules. Liberals in Congress. And the people that took out the mortgages. Of course the pundit's want to blame everyone except the real persons.

If I remember correctly Jody in the Gibson Case there was never any actual case filed so as whats-his-name implies Gibson couldn't defend themselves in court.

If you were a victim of some government atrocity Jody, tell us what happened.

Again If I remember correctly there was some law passed that allowed the Fish and Wildlife Commission to go after violaters of some law about importing wood from other countries. Supposedly there was some problem with the paperwork etc.
Cutting trees in Madagascar was no crime there as they had no complaints but our esteemed government decided it was an environment infraction.

So I wonder who is breaking the law today? Oh, today it is Volkswagon who has been fudging to emission standards for the last 7 years. Hey, more red meat for the tree huggers!

Last time I checked, you can't feed good hay in the front of a cow and have clean air come out the back. But, if you figure it out the government want's to talk to you! Geronimo!

Ahhh, things are more clear now Ray

So just because you did not read much about the whole mess, except what you got out of two AARP articles, a blurb in what you think was Consumer Reports, and a three second news brief, that nothing else exists. No one else did any research, and no one else wrote, spoke or debated the issues and came up with anything....because you did not read or see anything about it.

As for the rest, you say it is self evident. You say it is self evident that the guy who signed on the dotted line caused the entire mess...well along with those pesky Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, and Communists who have been running the country for the last 100 years .

Self evident. Kinda like why is the sky blue?

Well it is self evident that it is blue...so lets simply ignore the facts that the colour of the sky is dependent on the all the colours of light in our visible spectrum....which btw is dependent on light emitted by our sun in our solar system, and lets ignore the fact that this light travels through atmospheric molecules...mostly water molecules, and does so at a particular angle that scatters light rays and separates out the colours....in this case more blue light than other colours, and also ignore how the human eye perceives colour....because you know, it is self evident that the sky is blue because, well it's blue

Cordially yours,
Whats-His-Name

I don't know who whats-his-name is and posting on a public forum in such a manner reads bizarre. And, in case it was missed Ray, I was replying to MAB about his post saying every guitar manufacturer was using the same fretboards.

I never stated that I was the victim of some government atrocity either. I'll answer questions about my situation when I see responses that are not based on conjecture and opinion being passed off as fact.

Sincerely,
Whats-His-Name2

Well Whats-Name and Whats-His-Name #2,

To help you all I have been thru 3 World Wars, two County Fairs and a uh Sheep Shearing Contest. Now I don't think Lehman Bothers losing 6 Billion Dollars is, what's that big word again, Conjecture? Maybe it is conjecture that many businesses have moved Offshore. Maybe it is conjecture that between 40 and 50 million are on some type of Government assistance, namely Food Stamps now disguised under the name SNAP. Maybe it's conjecture that General Motors makes more cars off shore that here. Maybe the over 18 trillion dollar federal debt is just a mirage. Have you looked where your under ware is being made lately.
Mine are from El Salvador , Honduras, Vietnam, and most likely China, etc, etc, etc.


Oh sorry Jody. You said you were a victim of the system. Are you sure? Maybe you bought a load of goods from some liberal that was selling you the "Brooklyn Bridge" P.T Barnum said THERE IS A SUCKER BORN EVERY MINUTE. Was he right? It is no mystery to me Jody. You?

Ray I'll see your 3 world wars, two county fairs and uh sheep sheering contest, and raise you 4 blocks that I've built and walked around, two alpha to omegas, and second place in a wet T shirt contest in which everybody else tied for first.

Well John,
The Pope is in town, Yogi Just passed away. And if you don't remember anything else remember those famous words by Yogi, When you come to a fork in the road, take it!

I always do that Ray because it allows me to eat lunch on the way.

BTW, Martin Winterkorn just resigned. Read this morning VW faces fines of $37,500 PER CAR SOLD for their actions. I expect they'll settle for less.

Maybe we should debate Predatory Capitalism next because it definitely touches our last one discussion.

What?
Predatory Capitalisim? I understand all of it except the Geek Portion. It' all Greek to me. So with that caveat I will wade in with both feet.
As I understand it people work (Really Work) and put a bit of their money into savings mostly at small rural banks. Banks, that are closely regulated by law loan the money out to people that don't have the cash to pay for something they need so they borrow it.

When small banks don't have enough borrowers they invest it with bigger banks that make bigger loans. As long as the regulations are followed losses are small if any so everyone does Ok with the system. However when the government relaxes the rules and more risky loans are made the chance of loss is much greater.
Now where does the Predatory part fit in?

"... Now where does the Predatory part fit in? ... "

I shouldn't get involved (ha, ha). The predatory part is where the mortgage folks discovered they could make a fortune knowingly loaning money to people who would never be able to pay their loans once the merry-go-round stopped. Then they sold those toxic loans bundled as "safe" investments to unsuspecting mutual funds and retirement funds (OK, the brokers were getting their kickbacks).

Are the folks who gambled on getting a home at minimum hoping that their ship would sail before it sank? Well, of course they are. But it doesn't mean the money makers were innocent. ... and yes, the government encouraged those stupid loans. Lots of blame to go around. Have we learned our lessons. No, I don't think we have.

Predatory capitalism refers to irresponsible, exploitive and oppressive behaviour by companies and others....think back to the age of the "Robber Barons"....one of the things I believe is a root cause of the mess we are all in...and one of the causes of the financial meltdown we've been talking about

So it is the Gibson raid...orchestrated by some as yet unknown (could be the unions sending a message as in my original link) group or persons who where able to convince an arm of the government to act as they wanted

It is Washington lobbyists working to enact legislation favourable to corporate interest who have politicians on their political donation payrolls...who then take advantage of that legislation to make more money

It is companies that misuse patent protection to gauge consumers...most recently exemplified by Turing, who bought the rights to an antibiotic, Daraprim, and raised its price to the point that many people simply can't pay. Same can be said for Monsanto who claim ownership of an entire seed because they changed it by adding a gene...no matter that most of it was a gift of nature. farmers are now basically in thrall to them.

It is hastily set up educational institutions that work to separate veterans from their education allowance payments and offer up courses that are of little use and sometimes lack even appropriate accreditation.

It is corporations being accorded the status of individuals in the voting arena...meaning they actually have more rights and clout than people.

It is the bigger picture of all those folks who signed on the dotted line for mortgages they could not afford because many of the terms where hidden in the fine print and not explained to them...basically it is about the strong, highly sophisticated taking advantage of the weak, poor and those who lack the required knowledge, know how or other capabilities to make good decisions for themselves

It is everyone travelling merrily along to hell in a hand basket, except some are travelling first class.

Well Kevin,
You always were a smart cookie. Do you know people know the truth but will lie anyway? Today the average return on any savings you have managed to squirrel is less than half a percent. Well Obama wanted to spread the "Wealth" around.

Do you know John is in the wrong business. If he was there when P.T. Barnum was alive we may not be in the mess we are in today. Did you know that! Maybe John forgot that old saying, Let the buyer beware!

I don't know what John did when he bought a house but we had a Lawyer that explained every detail of the purchase. But I'm sure a lot of people glossed over the details but knew the bottom line, as a Lawyer once explained it to me, You don't pay, you don't stay!

Kevin do you know there are no honest people out there in business today. They are all a bunch of crooks! Hell just look at Wall Street! Actually you can also look in the White House. Better yet, just ask John! It's all in the fine print!

Ray: I am not sure your point here -- but it was a gamble. If the housing market continued to go up forever (ha, ha), then these people would have made money -- free money with nothing down! ... and no real risk for those on the bottom (just walk away). What a deal! A real estate agent once told me that house prices were not going to go down again. Well I didn't believe him (or was it a her?).

By the way, your points might be taken better if you didn't always try and insult/offend the other participants.

Ray, the fallacy in your thinking is that you believe everyone is as capable as you are. Also, yup, the lawyer may assist you in the buy sell agreement, but financing that house is via a different process, one you do not typically hire a lawyer for.

As for ole PT, there is definitely a sucker born every minute, but also 2 born to take him

Well Yes Kevin,
I do remember the flipping of Houses. After we bought our new house we were getting offers right and left asking if we wanted to sell our house! No, we didn't buy it to flip it and I didn't understand the game at the time then but I do now. And today nobody is flipping houses. I think with all the forclosure's today the banks are overwhelmed doing all the paperwork. And I seem to remember some were still trying to beat the system by claiming the banks were fudging the paperwork!

Yes John, I have always thought if I know how to do something, everybody else also does. Sorry!

Kevin I didn't think I was insulting anybody, I was just following the old Harry Truman adage, I don't Give 'em hell, I just tell the truth, they think it's hell! Time to end this.