JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum UK Songwriter Slams Nashville 'laziness'

Amen Tony, couldn't say it any better.

A while back I posted that in too many cases the music coming out of Nashville on Major Labels had no continuity. Basically many sound as if someone wrote one line and another wrote another line until they had something that didn't make a lot of sense but was complete enough to record and release. Many times the music track sounds like Rube Goldberg was the producer. To top it all off there is a lot of complaints and has been for a decade or two. It isn't that we want to go back to the past but when you take shortcuts in writing a song and then foist it on the public it shows.

Writing good songs is still hard and takes time. I think the Jury is in on too many productions out of Nashville. Describing it as Lazy fits all too well.

Everyone can always start their own labels, publishing companies, fund their own projects, build their own areas up into the next Nashville. Easy enough to do. Powers in your hands.

sorry it took awhile to reply. I'm obsessed with figuring out who "A" is on Pretty Little Liars and the big reveal is supposed to be Tuesday. now where were we?

let me restate what I already said...I'm not complaining about being treated bad by Nashville. far from it...they've treated me better than I ever thought they would. a large percentage of our songs are being signed and pitched to majors.

all the guy in the article said and that I agreed with, is that really expensive demos are needed to be successfully pitched. that is now reality and a necessary evil. like high medical costs. a lower, lower middle class chump like myself might view that negatively and feel people in the music business should be able to hear a song without full production. Were I to pitch a movie idea to Reese Witherspoon's Nashville production company, would I need to first film the movie in its entirety with full fx, pro actors and direction so she could see whether it was good enough for her to film it all again for theater release? probably not.

pointing that out doesn't make that guy a whiner or someone who impedes innovation. speaking of innovation...

another of his peeves was that small songwriting cliques result in music that's el same, same. sure it does. which is the opposite of innovation. So, essentially, Marc said that guy lacks innovation for saying(like many, many others) that Nashville lacks innovation. that's White House press secretary logic. in a recent interview with AARP, Bob Dylan said the exact same thing about the Nashville scene 45 years ago. Maybe Marc can lecture Bob on being the innovator he himself is, as an unstoppable internet bloviator.

so, I'm not looking for anyone to tell me what to demo. I have publishers for that, as well as friends and co-writers. Plus, I don't chase trends or fads and if I'm ever very financially successful, it'll be because I snuck in a back door. Sounds romantic, maybe even fanciful, doesn't it? But other than your wife, if you can't be romantic about music, what else is left? Music IS romance.

sure, the Nashville Death Star is nearly impregnable but to all I say dare to do this: switch off your computer guidance systems(corporate apologists like Marc), close your eyes and use the Force. You just might get a great song through Music Row's exhaust vent and blow the whole thing apart including Governor Tarkin(that guy who runs Big Machine. )

a lot of people think "A" is either Hannah or Aria but dammit, I think it's Byron. or possibly someone's evil twin. So I've gotta get back to theorizing. till then, here's two songs that I think work without the production, co-written and performed by the great Craig Bickhardt. see Marc, you're not the only shameless name dropper.

link is below along with a lyric I wrote this AM called A Stranger in These Parts. not a chart topper but sometimes you must please yourself. I read that right here on JPF.

http://tunesmithpro.ning.com/profiles/profile/show?id=bjfm3mi5fxfq

Painted Ladies ©2010 Craig Bickhardt/Robert George

Lester walks the littered streets and alleys
With his tattered army coat and cane
Till he sees a woman in a doorway
On a moonlit street just off of Main
Wears a mask of rouge and dark eyeliner
With her press-on nails and press-on smile
Lester’s never seen her out here hustlin’
But he’ll make her des’prate night worthwhile

And her cherry lip-gloss shines best where it’s shady
His heart’s filled with pictures of those painted ladies

All those women lose their heat and spirit
Like the steam that’s whistling through the grills
Lester comes to meet them after midnight
With his ravaged past and wrinkled bills
Says he’s got a one room by the L-Train
And he’ll buy that woman’s time till dawn
But she pulls a gold shield from her change purse
And she slaps those steely bracelets on

Cos a full moon brings out all the freaks and the crazies
Who color their dull, blank lives with painted ladies

On the way to jail, Lester tells a tale
And it sounded like the ramblings of a drunk
But that cop slowed down, and turned the car around
Headed for an address by the waterfront

Well, the L-Train rattled by his window
And the ceiling tiles were water-stained
Light bulb swingin’ in a cob-web corner
By a stool and easel and some paint
Walls were full of lonely women’s portraits
Cos Lester had no children and no wife
O he seeks out all the midnight women
He don’t pay for love…he pays for life

And the cop saw that those frames held all his babies
So she just turned and left him with his painted ladies

Lester walks the littered streets and alleys
With his tattered army coat and cane…

The Borderline ©2011 Craig Bickhardt/Robert George BMI

Tommy hit a Tucson gun show
Bought his wife a .38
It was time she had protection
On the nights that he worked late
Paid no mind to Russian rifles
Near the doorway on display
He was thinkin’ of his mortgage
As he drove back home that day

He was gonna ask for overtime
Workin’ shifts along the borderline

Forks of lightnin’ stabbed the foothills
As he kissed his wife goodbye
Dinner pail with enchiladas
And some fresh banana pie
Sometimes Tommy just felt useless
Cos the border’s like a sieve
People keep on siftin’ through it
Searchin’ for a place to live

Empty water jugs in summertime
Lead to bones along the borderline

Tommy saw a beat-up van
Racin’ cross the midnight sand
So he hit the lights and called it in
Muzzle flashes lit the night
Short and violent firefight
And a dyin’ breath upon the wind

Tommy passed the foggy veil of time
When he crossed that final borderline

Sheriff’s dragnet down by Douglas
Opened fire on that van
And those smugglers died while fightin’
Russian guns still in their hands
There’s a lonely country graveyard
Desert dust upon a cross
Tommy’s widow weeps and wonders
If there’s meaning in her loss

And she kneels and watches for a sign
Down along the borderline

That night she heard funny noises
In her backyard by the gate
Shadow by the garden faucet
So she grabbed her .38
Then she stopped and thought a minute
With a teardrop in her eye
Gave that frightened kid some water
Enchiladas and a pie

Life is sometimes cruel but mostly kind
On the land along the borderline

and a lyric from this morning....

A Stranger in These Parts ©2015 Robert George BMI

Well, I took a look around and stepped down off that Greyhound
I could tell that small town had remained a hustler’s playground
I heard buzzin’ from the neon whiskey glass and cue ball
On the stupid sign above the door at Harry’s Pool Hall
Way back when my dad’d take me there when he was able
I’d drink Hire’s root beer and I’d watch him run the table
Now I figgered that when lawmen found out what my name was
Word’d fin’lly reach the mayor as to what my game was

I’m a shadow…I’m a stranger in these parts
And there’s vengeance and there’s danger in my heart

Well, my parents were no cyber-tycoons
And they had no bonds or stock in iTunes
To be fair they mostly had my crazy dad to thank
He was always talkin’ lotsa great plans
That were petty cons or real estate scams
Till he fin’lly got the nerve to rob that downtown bank

Then they found him in a shed along the tracks
With a double load of buck shot in his back

Few suspected that the bank guard was an inside player
Till he somehow raised the cash to win a run for mayor
Me, I wound up with a coupla endless years in juvy
When I punched a mouthy skatepunk at a Matrix movie
I spent lotsa hours in the laundry and the wood shop
Thinkin’ there’s no diff’rence in a bad cop and good cop
And then I came back and planned to watch the mayor closely
I knew if he saw my face then he’d feel something ghostly

I’m a shadow…I’m a stranger in these parts
And there’s vengeance and there’s danger in my heart

First he saw me sitting, watching in my rented Hyundai
Near St. Phillips where he took his fam’ly ev’ry Sunday
Then he saw me near his love nest off of Stonewall Highway
Where he took his pill head mistress ev’ry other Friday
When he saw me on the sidewalk he was damn sure wary
Of the long, thin leather bag I always carry
Then one night he lay beside his mistress watching Bill Maher
With his dead heart focused on her night stand and a pill jar

Though I’d come for justice I had time to kill
I knew paranoia would soon work its will

Long years of a conscience sitting idle
Fin’lly made that mayor suicidal
And his mistress found him underneath the bathroom sink
Bloggers are a lurid rumor’s lapcat
Morbid photos were exposed on SnapChat
Me, I headed down to Harry’s Pool Hall for a drink

First I bought the place a round and raised a toast
Whiskey is the magic spoon that stirs up ghosts

Though that billiard hall was full of dreamers
Dirty pool would take ‘em to the cleaners
Hustling pool is one thing daddy knew that’s worth a dime
First I come off like a fool beginner
Then bet big and walk away a winner
With that fancy custom cue I made while doin’ time

Now the past is buried where it ought to be
I’m the independent man I fought to be

Maybe I’ll just drive that Hyundai all the way to Barstow
Where a guy I knew in juvy won a classic car show
Maybe open up a surf shop out in Sausalito
Spend time watching bunnies, selling boards and speedos
And I know some guys who manufacture bootleg sex wax
And sell herbal tea to seniors made from hemp and Ex-Lax
First, I’ll hit that big time eight ball tourney up in Lincoln
But no matter where I end up people will start thinkin’

He’s a shadow…He’s a stranger in these parts
And there’s vengeance and there’s danger in his heart

This thread tickled my funny bone.

There is one songwriting opportunity needle in a songwriting haystack somewhere on the planet, your job as a songwriter, is to find it. When you dont, you end up with nothing. Do we really think we have a way around this?

People buy recordings, not songs, that is why they want top recordings, they want to invest in something already there, as opposed to a vacant lot with a blueprint, doesnt make it any more fair to somebody who cant afford to fully produce every song they write, but like everything else, that's how it is.

Not that I know jack**** about any of this but based on what I just heard on Ross Hemsworth's Reverbnation page my guess is his real problem is that (putting it kindly) what he is doing doesn't sound like anything Nashville would be interested in regardless of demo quality.

Just my opinion as a total duffer....:)

Just because a road can lead to causeways and exceptions
Doesn't mean its not headed in a primary direction
For those who have a road map you can draw a straighter line
Even if a few can get there trying what they might



better line than
But some who don't will also get there trying what they might

Well then the easy fix would be, get a Nashville sounding demo.

I think we can read theories all over the place about why people DONT make it, but im sure there are at very least...1000 people all doing things the "correct" way.

There might be 10 thousand people doing things the wrong way, but still plenty doing everything to the letter, and still not getting anything.

No, the real problem is that there aren't enough songs needed, for all the people who write songs. Kinda like selling snow to Eskimos.

If you are at least decent, but work really hard, network, and get really really lucky, you might stumble on an opportunity.

But you cant measure greatness with great success. Hard to measure greatness at all, so many different views on it.

The map is the inexpensive part. Finding a map that works and has the right roads on it, an up to date for 2015, is another thing. And a map with a standardization to it, not a different map for every person who draws one.

Is anybody doing the things suggested here?

I'd like to see the plan in action. Somebody go out and do everything suggested here, and come back and let us know how you made out

Marc-Alan Barnette runs a service that follows a road map. It centers around how Nashville seems to work today -- co-writing and relationships. I actually know of a few folks that are following his "methods" and seem to be making headway. Of course, the percentage of folks making progress versus every one who tries it might be low -- there's talent and then "the dream" versus "the drive" (and of course a bit of luck here and there) -- but all in all he provides an effective method; and at what I feel is a low, low cost.

I dont know anything about Mark, Im sure he's very good. But why not be a professional songwriter, instead of having a service?

If I had a road to success in Nashville, or anywhere, id be there, and doing what I love to do.

That's a good question to ask Marc directly. He is involved here and of course he has his own website: http://www.marcalanbarnette.com/ . I think you will find him a very straight-shooter and you will find his viewpoints useful, whether or not you invest in his services.

But another big component is that a lot of the people trying to do this aren't really good enough. And as with many other people trying to make it as writers and entertainers in general the impulse is to blame the "industry" rather than admit that to yourself.

This guy has no chance of success in Nashville with the material he has on his reverbnation page (I'm sorry to be blunt about it if he's reading this.)

If there is really a "well known song-plugger" who is taking his money to promote these demos to anyone in Nashville he/she must be a rip-off artist or completely incompetent. Once again, just my two cents as someone whose only qualification is that I listen to the radio occasionally.

Bu

On face value, i'd agree with that. People throw together a crap demo of a crap song, and then when nobody wants it, they blame the industry.

But, so much of the music that sells does not require great songwriting. Most of it relies on the production. With the right producers, arrangers, musicians, engineers, anybody can put out an outstanding record.

Even a garbage song can start to sound really good when it's done right.

At the end of th day it comes down to how good a production it is. people listen to a recording and like it for whatever reason, they sure as hell dont sit there and say "ahh gee, why didnt they rhyme that last line" or "this whole song makes no sense"

Even if they do, they dont care, they are buying an experience, not a lyric or a melody.

Ever hear a live version of your favorite song? More often than not live albums suck, there are exceptions. It's much better being at the arena watching it, than listening to it at home.

Recordings are they key, and if you have a great recording, with a great producer, and not just a generic recording done at an affordable demo place... you can get on radio and be successful.

Hey I think I could make one hell of a record, if I had say, Phill Ramone producing me, with Bob Clearmountain recording me, with session musicians who played on every hit you ever heard, backing me, and with people who can get it on the radio

Imagine having all that, you could do it too. Miley Cyrus and Taylor Swift do it this way, if they recorded on my gear, with me as engineer and producer, they wont sound any better than me.

So it comes down to who gets the chance to work with these people.

If you took every song on this forum and recorded it and produced it by the same person, or company, you'd start to hear a whole lot of common ground with all of them. Alot of times the only thing that sets a song apart is the production.

One guy sings better than another, his SONG is better. Might not be true at all, but it IS true.

Commonly expressed opinion but I have to disagree. Keeping the scope of the discussion on people trying to have their songs recorded by the Nashville establishment---go to the websites of any of those companies that make pro demos for people and listen to the samples. Performed and sung by Nashville pros and production that is most of the way towards radio ready yet with almost all of them you can still tell that it's second rate material. And those are the ones they post trying to sell their services.

If as you say you took every song on this site and produced them all with top notch pros, most of them would still not stand up next to what is on the radio. You mention Taylor Swift. I don't know how much of her music she actually writes but of what I've heard over the years, it's good pop music. Not what I listen to, but good. There's more than just expensive production and a random hot 20 year old separating that product from what the majority of Nashville hopefuls can come up with. If there wasn't, everyone could do it. Good production doesn't cost that much anymore. You listen to the top radio hits on country and there are some very clever, experienced writers putting that stuff together. Some very talented people who know what they are doing. Once again, not what I would listen to for long but obviously not something very many people can do.

“I dont know anything about Mark, Im sure he's very good. But why not be a professional songwriter, instead of having a service?If I had a road to success in Nashville, or anywhere, id be there, and doing what I love to do.”

Since this question was asked about me, I thought I would try to answer it best I could. Since some don’t care for some of my answers, since they tend to be long, because there are not easy answers, might as well be ready to scroll down.

First of all, you need to understand the overall realities of the music business. If you read many of the other threads here, pay attention to other sites, learn anything at all about the music industry, you will know that almost NO ONE now is getting paid as purely a songwriter. It is now an “ARTIST/SONGWRITER” business, with a majority of music being self contained, that is from the artists themselves, their producers, their controlling labels and publishers, or very tightly controlled writing circles. Most else is simply not even considered regardless of the talents of writes, publishers song pluggers, etc. In this business, it is not who YOU KNOW, but who KNOWS YOU AND HOW THEY KNOW YOU. And even the best songs, the best artists, the best relationships, the best recorded product, life is not fair and everyone simply doesn’t “make it.” It is closer to a lottery or a casino, and those are not exactly the surest bet for financial success either.

In Nashville, like the rest of the business, less than a percent of a percent of a percent make any significant money. If a song is not a huge hit single, with staying power, and very high visibility, it will probably not pay for the recording of the demo. The people that make over $100,000 a year is probably around 15-20. Out of the reported 150,000-200,000 writers who attempt to interact with the industry a year, from thousands that live here to hundreds of thousands that are trying to “send in” songs, employ pluggers, enter contests, enroll in pitch libraries, Taxi, and other services, probably less than 50 get more than one cut a year. There are very few songs that sell much of anything with most music being “free samples’ we give away to draw attention to our product. Most make nothing. Even some of the great ones.

This is nothing new. When I attended a writers conference in 1998 with some of the top writers, publishers and label people, along with some ‘tech people” who were representing this new force called the “Internet.” When one of the tech people said very matter of factly, that “in the future, songwriters are going to have to get used to doing without royalties, because they won’t be there.” The entire room went silent. When one of the top writers at that time, sitting next to me, said “How are writers supposed to earn a living?” The tech guy said “You WON’T.”

That is where we have come. We went from 1460 “staff songwriting deals” in the early 2000’s to around 310 now and the majority of those are split among young people who have potential to be artists, and the established “old dogs” who have had success in the past few years. Very easy to become a dinosaur and be replaced very quickly. And all are at some point or another. If you look at the industry as professional athletes it makes more sense. Ten-fifteen years of training, building skills, building political connections, being broke, struggling through it all, then with a break through, getting into the thick of it, being everywhere for about three years, then replaced by someone new. And those are only for a very few. Most sit the bench and never really play.

Another aspect I have always noticed about Nashville is the fact that almost NO writers derive their entire income soley from songwriting income. They own other businesses, they own studios, are session and live players, producers, have copyright recapture businesses, teach seminars and workshops, write books on the business and craft, and most own other non-related companies. One day I had a guy working on my toilet for his plumbing contracting business, at the time he had just come off his third number one song. His plumbing business is where his steady money came from. I have had writer’s sessions interrupted by calls to go show property for property management business, deliver supplies for construction contracting business, etc. all by writers with rooms and walls full of Gold and Platinum records. The ‘writing a song that sets you for life is mostly a myth.

Why do I have a service instead of being a professional songwriter? Because I do both. I am a professional songwriter as I write songs, and am paid for my songwriting talents, as well as collecting income from that. But I also teach the craft of songwriting and the business of music. I am paid for my knowledge, processes and personal experiences it has taken me decades to learn. I work with writers and artists from all over the world on their writing talents, song critiques, performance critiques, networking, and understanding and navigating the often insane world of the modern music business. I help them meet co-writers, get booked in venues, produce them in studios, arrange meetings with industry people, and build their skills and awareness to a point they can move on to a higher level, be that becoming a large local draw in their home town or finding ways into the tight writers circles that are standard in this town.

Basically I teach a person to fish.
I try to show this to people so they AVOID the rip offs, the scams, the “sounds too good to be true” deals that permeate any business people desire to be in. The Internet is full of these things and most writers and artists get hit by them at one time or another. I try to keep that from happening. I show people where the water is. Whether they drink or not is up to them. I try to show them directions for an overall career instead of getting in, spending a lot of money, wasting time, losing financial well being, relationships, marriages, jobs, personal sanity etc. Have seen far too much of that.

I try to bring some of that knowledge to sites like these. If writers and artists care enough to be involved with dialogue, share information and be a part of a community, they deserve to get as much information as they can. In many cases, it does filter back to me in the form of clients. But the main reason I am here or anywhere is to pass forward information others have passed on to me in the 38 years I have been doing this.

The music business is VERY COMPLICATED. Most of it is now FREE, regardless of the well intentions of efforts of anyone. That is just reality. Writers and artists are having songs streamed MILLIONS of dollars and not even making enough money to pay for another recording. So writers have to reevaluate what it means to “make it.” They have to be careful of how they spend money, they have to work harder on their writing, they have to work MUCH harder on building relationships. And they have to inject REALITY into their DREAMS.
If they pay attention, they can make great friends for life, they can write the best songs of their lives, and they can touch the lives of others. They may not ever make a lot or even any money at this. But they can have a pretty cool journey.

And that is the key of this. It’s NOT the DESTINATION, it’s the ROAD THAT GETS YOU THERE. Having a road map is no guarantee you are going to find gold at the end of the rainbow. Only means you know where you start out and the direction you need to go in.

MAB

"go to the websites of any of those companies that make pro demos for people and listen to the samples. Performed and sung by Nashville pros and production that is most of the way towards radio ready yet with almost all of them you can still tell that it's second rate material. And those are the ones they post trying to sell their services."

That is what i said, if you buy an affordable demo, it's not much of an upgrade and nothing near what a 10,000 dollar and more would sound like. 600 dollars is not going to buy you a radio ready demo, though these companies like to call them radio ready. Radio Ready Demo is an oxymoron, cause if it;s radio ready, it's not a demo.

"There's more than just expensive production and a random hot 20 year old separating that product from what the majority of Nashville hopefuls can come up with. If there wasn't, everyone could do it. Good production doesn't cost that much anymore. You listen to the top radio hits on country and there are some very clever, experienced writers putting that stuff together"

I know, I wrote if I had Phil Ramone, Bob Clearmountain and the studio session guys of every major hit, id have something.

Of course not, recording is one part, arrangement is another, and for most singers AUTOTUNE, is standard.

It's everything, the production, the arrangement, the instrumentation, the singer. And MAYBE, a little song in there. But as I said, a crap song, if it had all the things above would still sound great and be accepted by people listening, it;s been proven over and over and over again, with songs that have become hits, and songs that have won Grammies. Clearly, the SONG, wasnt the criteria.

but your right the studio musicians often frame a chord a certain way, to add emhpasis, they add instrumental hooks which could sell the song.

Some guitar player getting paid 100 bucks to do your demo, is not going to write you a hit guitar track for 100 dollars, and he might not be able to perform a hit guitar track, since he's only being paid 100

Price counts. The point was you will never sound like somerhting on the radio, whether you record at home or if you buy one for 900 bucks.

if it were that easy, everybody would have tracks that sound as good as the top hits, and we wouldnt have this problem of the people with all the money dominating the charts.

Jay, Taylor Swift has written almost 100% of her music since the beginning of her career, which is the reason she has become such a phenomenon. You can't fool everyone all the time. And while she has her detractors, or 'Taylor haters", she has consistantly impressed the hardest pros in this business, the press, the media, even her competition. You don't do that by being a fake.

MAB

Ok, i know a bit more now. I understand your end, but how do you sell a service when nobody makes any money back?

It's the journey not the destination, when you have the time to take the journey and the money to feed yourself.

Otherwise, you are working in a Nashville hardware store by day, and recording in your affordable bedroom studio, up till 2 AM, and submitting demos, on your lunch break.

it reminds me a bit of the songwriter Molly Ann Leikin, she wrote a few books on songwriting, and unlike many people who write books, she HAD a number of hits.

But writing books helped pay the rent when the songs dont make you money.

Real estate agents who MADE lots of money in real estate, later host seminars and write books.

If your selling me info on making money in real estate, why not SELL real estate? it makes me think im NOT going to sell ANY real estate.

Hey, the music business is one of the worst businesses to be in, it's hard selling a service when failure is an automatic certainty, and no money back.

if your service is centered around self improvement, and advancement of ones skills, thats fine. But how many people buying your services are not doing so to get something back?

Recording studios face the same problem, selling demos that have no chance of making the buyer money, at least they can hand the person a physical product for their money.

Tough business, but as long as you are straight with people, I dont see any harm.

I knew it, I knew it! I should have never got off the turnip truck! Who said songwriting is easy! Probably everybody in Nashville is a songwriter. Anybody need a few good prints for their wall? I have old cars, old military planes, and lots and lots of other excellent subjects! Aw, well, I've got to start writing that book I've got an idea for.

but without world class session players, producers, engineers, in world class facilities, how would she sound?

if you find a girl to work with, she wont have any of that. Shell have her song, and then have to try to compete with millions of dollars of pre and post production

I think she writes some good pop songs, but alot of people do. Even people who are IN the business and making millions, and not doing as well as she is, she was very lucky.

Charlie2015: I think if you look at this like a hobby, then it makes more sense. Adults take up golf and tennis everyday, but very, very few realistically expect to hit the tour next year. Folks who paint, do crafts, work on model trains,... normally don't expect to make any money doing it. Of course there are some that start selling a local craft fairs and such, but it is tough to make a "living" that way.

I've been to one of Marc's gatherings in the past and will likely do another tour in the future -- I don't expect to make any money, but I will meet other writers/artists, learn more about songwriting and develop more fun "relationships". Many of Marc's clients do write with artists and those artist will put out a CD. Will you, as a co-writer on a "cut", make any money? Probably not, but it sounds like fun goal for a hobby.

EDIT: ... and just because it is a "hobby", doesn't mean that I am not serious about it.

Ok, yeah, that makes sense.

guitar teachers dont teach you to be rock stars they teach out how to play guitar, and if the player is really interested and motivated, they go on to study different styles, not to make money to be a better player.

But the main roadblock in my mind, is moving. Your not moving to Nashville or any hub, to get a non paying cut.

Thanks for the info! I never really checked into it. I remember hearing one of her songs when she first broke out and thinking "no way a young kid could have written this on her own." She's got all the trappings of celebrity now so it's easy to dismiss her.

here is taylors first song. Vocal is NOT autotuned, and the arrangement, while acceptable, is not an award winning record. it sounds like every demo ive ever heard on songwriting demo sites.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS9V_7Dwinw

Now here is what you get when you have a few hundred thousand, to possibly millions working on your tracks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfWlot6h_JM

I don't know. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. For example, did you hear Brandy Clark and Dwight Yoakam at the Grammys? You could have recorded that on a cell phone and it would have sounded great. I used to work at the restaurant where Ketch Secor played open mic when he was in high school. He sounded great on a broken radio shack microphone through blown speakers. I don't entirely disagree with you. I just think the content counts for a lot more than what you're saying. Just my two cents!

It might have sounded great to you through a cell phone, but not to the record buying public.

I think content matters to the art of it, to the commerce of it, it's the packaging.

But what is "Content" to most, the content is how it sounds, makes them move and makes them feel a certain way.

I love lyrics, but there are probably thousands of songs I love, that I dont know any of the lyrics.

Once up on a time there were singers that could really sing but could not play or write. Then there were musicians that could really play but could not sing or write. Then there were writer that could really write but were not singers or musicians. But by combining the talents of all three, great songs were produced by great producers, arrangers, engineers and studios. This took a lot of work but it paid off for everyone involved because people were willing to pay for this product. But along came the internet that made it possible for the end user to steal that product for free. Great for the end user but everyone else were ending up working for nothing. The industry wanting to keep going had to look for ways to do that by cutting corners. They found ways but the big end loser in all this is the customer that so loved music that they had to steal all they could get. Now they are not now getting the best product possible because nobody is willing to work for nothing. The old saying is you get what you pay for, you buy cheap, you get cheap. You buy quality, you get quality. Quality will last longer and give better satisfaction while cheap will soon wear out and have to be replaced. So which is cheaper in the long run.

A number of years ago I was in a shop when this young girl came in to buy some blank CD so she could go home and download some free music of the net to play at a party she was having. I questioned her if she liked music, oh yes she said and was always looking for new music. I said if you continue to steal music, who is going to continue to provide you with quality free music in the future if you are not willing to pay for it. She was take back for a while but shrugged her shoulders and left the store with her CDs. Maybe she is one of the complainers today that can't find any quality songs.

Charlie,

Kevin's "tennis analogy is very good. Another one I use is "golf." Millions upon millions of people buy clubs, clothes, take all kinds of lessons, go on golf vacations around the world, some just play for fun on Sundays, some do it every day, some conduct business around it because their contempoaries are on golf courses, some play in local tournaments, have regular games with friends and a few strive to get up that ladder to the pro tours.Almost none will ever make it to a professional level, much less play the Masters with Phil Mikleson. Doesn't stop anyone from trying to learn or striving for the best.

That is very similar to Nashville, New York, LA, etc. Millions upon millions have that dream. Most never get out of their living rooms. They write their songs,record them however they can, most are horrible, put them on web sites, reverb nation, you tube.
Some go the next levels, make trips, bring their songs and skills in, try to make professional contacts. Some move,some make consistant trips over the years.
Some will become "big fish in their own little ponds.' Some will write books, find their own little niche in their own little worlds.

All just as valid. But the expectations have to be reality based.

What I personally do is break all these aspects down into four sections:

Creation of the song.
Presentation of the song (live and recorded)
Networking (making friends and contacts)
Business (Bringing tangible results to your efforts)

But again, almost NOBODY is really making money. Just because you get a guitar lesson doesn't mean you are going to play like Clapton. Just because you get a great sounding recording doesn't mean the audience is going to purchas your product. Just because you have all the best intentions, talent, etc. doesn't mean you are going to succeed. That is just a fact of life.

Everyone who goes to a casino is not going to win money, mostly are going to lose. It is the CHANCE to win money people go for. The well written song, with a well conneected artist or inner relationships, with a well recorded presentation, with a lot of networking and elbow grease and YEARS of time,that gives the CHANCE to have success. There are no guarantees.

Most people go for the "Shiney" ways. the easy ways.Spending a few hundred bucks (or less) for a demo of some mediocre song that sounds like a billion other mediocre songs, and wants to upload that to YOU TUBE or reverb nation (along with a hundred thousand other mediocre songs at the same time).

The people who really do this invest time, mostly years, money, on trips, building relationships, slowly and surely,developing skills commiserate with the industry standards, and earn their way in.

It is ALL ABOUT HOW GOOD YOU MAKE SOMEONE ELSE LOOK. If you write really good (great) songs, AND have a GREAT PERSONALITY (Essential. Jerks dripping with ego or entitlement don't go very far at all.)and are out there the SAME way other people are out there, people will be drawn to your brand. If you are writing with other writers, artists, producers, people in the loop, your brand rises. If your reputation (brand) rises, and people want to work with YOU, and THEN bring tangible success to others, artists, co-writers, producers, publishers, label people, venue operators, you name it, you will advance.

Always have to make someone else look good for you to look good.

MAB

Your right, it took a very talented team to make great records. A lyricist alone could spend decades honing their craft, and so could every member of the song making crew.

They say were have stumbled on the DIY movement in music, I think we have, but im not sure many DIY's are making money doing it lol

The DIY movement has always been and probably always will be here.

People will always have the problem of not having the money to compete with people/companies that do

Well im convinced you are a writer, lol

Um, Well,
2 Points.
In the past very few Major Artists wrote their own songs. Elvis didn't write anything. Some wrote a song hit or two.

Today the Major Labels want the Artist to also be the writer. That way they don't have to pay any mechanical royalties to speak of.
There are plenty of good songs available even from writer's on this board but getting thru all the loops is impossible. And if you get a song considered they want Publishing and maybe an extra cut of the royalties. As I have posted before, do learn all you can about the music business because you never know when you will need to defend yourself.

I have a few personal "Taylor" stories, I can share that might give you a little perspective. And it is instructive on how all this works together.

From meeting her at 15 and getting an opportunity to write with her (I didn't), to people I knew at the time talking about her as the 'next big thing" to Liz Rose, her first major co-writer, to many musicians involved in her career, people who work for her, and people who have been employed by her, is a pretty amazing force of nature. Much larger than one part.

One of the artists I worked with and moved to a deal is FRANKIE BALLARD. Frankie is out of Kalamazoo Michigan, and came to work with me for six months before signing a publishing deal with Sony and record deal with Warner Brothers. Frankie hit number one twice last year and is on his way to a third one. The man who signed him to his publishing deal was TROY TOMLINSON, the head of Sony music.

In meetings on Frankie in Troy's office as we signed publishing contracts (50 page MONSTERS!) I noticed all kinds of awards on Taylor on his shelf. I asked Troy about her abilities. He talked about how incredible she was, that she was the youngest writer signed to Sony that everyone loved her, but she advanced quicker than anyone thought she would.

Her Father bought a 3% percentage of a record company to be run by SCOTT BORCHETTA, a very well known label head and producer. He left his very lucrative job at another label to work exclusively with her. Now understand that this happens EVERY DAY in this town. Every hit writer, producer,label head, have dozens of the "new next big things' all the time. They are in showcases, writing songs, performing, networking, doing industry functions. they are every where you look and on the big festivals like last weeks' TIN PAN SOUTH every major hit writer has their own "discoveries' onstage to show them off. Around the songs they are writing with their own discoveries.

And most of these never go anywhere. Which was my hesitation to work with her in the first place. Having just gone through a situation of writing with THREE 14 year old girls AND THEIR MOTHERS (Momangers), I had NO INTEREST in diving back into the pre-prubescent pool. And a lot of my contemporaries passed for the same reason. Most of us DETEST a lot of the music out there just like you do, but we don't talk about it as much. But there are as many of us as frustrated with the business as any of you.

But she did something we had not seen before and I openly admit I missed it like everyone else did. She wrote instinctive, mature songs that were age appropriate, spoke to her generatoin while also appealing to the generation of women older than her. She expanded her demographic, from traditional country, which was 18-45, 70% female to 14-65 80% female.
She was a machine (her company is named BIG MACHINE) and had a vision on everything, videos, marketing, branding, touring, publishing, etc. She was very knowlegable in every aspect of it. And surrounder herself with people who knew what they were doing.

She was not flakey, not a train wreck. She designed her costumes, her videos, she make surprise appearances at fan's hospital rooms and high schools,she did online video chats. she was at the forefront of the Twitter generation and set the bar for YOU TUBE,myspace, facebook, all viral networking. And she built a solid relationship with her FANS, directly through the Internet.They WANTED TO BUY HER RECORDS, when most were having to GIVE IT AWAY. She created a fircely loyal fan base by always being true to THEM.

Her music allowed them to grow WITH her, and her fan base relfects that. And while now there is a big hullablaoo with her moving into "pop (most here will say she was always there) her main fan base grows with her. She has expanded into pop, but not LOST her main country fan base. Her records have always been mixed in two ways, one for pop radio one for country radio. And she did that, not someone telling her to do that.

Contrary to some people's belief, I don't "tow the Nashville line". I have NO LINE TO TOW. I don't have corporate involvement, I am an independent contractor just trying to make my own way. I do something fairly interesting and catered to the individual and it works fine for me.

I just comment on the way things ARE. I try to give as positive a spin on it as I can just because there is so much negative.But I respect people who do this and do it well. I might not be crazy for them in their music or talent, but I recognize when they do something well and how they do it. Because we are all trying to find our own way to emulate it.

I have personally seen this twice in my time here. Before Taylor there was GARTH BROOKS, who did the same thing, reorganized the demographic and industry around THEM. And everyone else followed suit. Taylor has done the same thing. Were either the best writers,singers, etc? Maybe not. But they both did something people said was not possible.They changed the style, the sounds, the looks, the marketing of country music and rolled up huge dollars. And the entire industry is healthier for it.

Who knows, one day you might get a chance to play something for a publisher who was personally helped by some of Taylor's largesse.
Right now, the people who record FOR her label certainly have.
Reba McEntire, Rascal Flatts, Tim McGraw, Martina McBride and her latest signing, AEROSMITH'S STEVEN TYLER.

So does this girl have "IT?"
I'd have to say she does.

MAB

I think it;s because the sound is so good, that's enough to sell it today.

the beatles had advanced recording techniques, but if you listen to alot of their stuff today, it just doesn't sound good enough to impress your son or daughter with.

You know you try to convince them the beatles were the best, and you let them hear these old recordings, it's kind of like getting them to watch an old sit com in black and white.

Marc!
You have to be born under a Lucky Star! I was born under a Lucky Star but Joe Btfspik keeps raining on my parade!

She has it, but so does thousands of others. her best skill is probably lyrics, and im noe denying she was good with words, but she is just not far and above lights out ahead of everybody else.

She got the chance. I think she can have a very really long career, although i think her songs are starting to get weaker, even they she might be getting more popular.

Good for her, nobody is begrudging her success, she got a shot and took advantage of it.

Back in the day companies were willing to develope an artist, instead of wanting a blockbuster album right out of the gate.

it took Billy Joel several albums to write great songs. if they didnt invest in his ability, we would have never heard his great music.

Charlie, having seen literally THOUSANDS of others, I really have to dissagree. She has a package that can't be manufactured, and did it at an age where people fade out so fast to be gone in months when everything doesn't come immediately.

And again, you can't really look at just one factor, say the fact she needs autotune. You have to look at the bigger picture, such as scoring a number one award winning hit with a song called "SHAKE IT OFF" which is making fun of people (and herself)who MAKE FUN OF HER USING AUTOTUNE. She disarms her critics with self depridation and humor, also humility which is what endears her to so many.

Not many would be able to do that. not many would take time out of a 20 hour day, traveling, and yet make an emergency stop at a hospital to visit sick kids. not many would be the first to write a PERSONAL check for a million dollars when Nashville went through it's 500 year flood. Not many would do unending things for charity and society and NOT ALLOW THAT TO BE PROMOTED PUBLICLY.

That takes a very different kind of person than most self absorbed people. Aside from all the songs, the tours,the merchandise, the inner person is sometning that can't be manufactured and THAT is what separates her from everyone else.

Yes, Ray I was born under a VERY LUCKY star. Either that or a "Budwiser sign." I'm not sure which.

One day if you want to hear a really funny story about me and some crazy music business experiences, I'll tell you.I've got a million of them and have just found out some other ones about myself that even I didn't know! LOL!

MAB

Howard Stern went to visit a kid with Cancer lol

That stuff doesnt impress me really, for 200 million you should be doing everything you can to give back.

Maybe she is a great person, and it be great if she is.

lets hope we dont read about what a Diva she has become in years to come

Uh, Marc,
Want to know how to make a million dollars? You start out with two million.

But what about those swirling winds in Munich, Germany

Actually Ray, it takes the same exact skill set to make 20 dollars as it does to make 2 million. The only difference is it's magnified with the two million.

if you can figure out how to make 1000 with your music, 100 thousand would be in reach.

but im not seeing where there is any money in music, right now.

They've even had some Rappers on their songs.
Plus there is some Rap type melodies in Country Music also...fast clipped words and melodies.
IF We are looking for creativity and something new we can't look at Mainstream ANYTHING because that is for the status quo.
Have to look on the fringes for the Next Big Thing.

"if you can figure out how to make 1000 with your music, 100 thousand would be in reach" - Charlie

Not really Charlie! The latter requires many more fans. $1,000 = 66 CD's sold = 66 fans willing to pay $15 (not terribly difficult to achieve). $100,000 = 6,666 CD's sold = 6,666 fans willing to pay $15 each (extremely difficult to achieve).

John

Hey Marc you are correct on most of this.
Don't try and be or write like anybody else. There IS an audience that will like what you are doing if you are good BUT It's up to us to go find them....Easier said than done. I used to try and sing and write like everybody else but soon realized that wasn't getting me anyplace.
SO I figured let me just sing and sound like ME and leave it all out there.....It's better that way and I believe being a singer songwriter who is his OWN Man is better off than trying to just fit into the slot...

If there was more good songs than bad songs out there I wouldn't be as excited when I hear the good songs and I'd probably lose interest. It's the thrill of the hunt. The search for golden wrapper. Is it in your chocolate bar?

I learn a lot from these discussions. For a long time, I learned about the industry as it stands today for those who wish to make money with their music somehow. Everything I learned here and on other songwriting websites confirmed my own notions of how it works, and how different talents can be applied with a chance of success.

But most of this stuff really isn't much different than how it ever was: if you have a talent, then you need to interact with people, and they have to want your talent. It demands a combination of excellence, human interaction, and timely opportunities. That and dedicated hard, unflagging work.

It was never a sure thing, and since the advent of the internet and file sharing and digital production, it is now even less of a sure thing. So the best chance you have is to follow the advice of people like Marc, if you still insist on chasing the majors, somehow, some way.

But what I learn most these days from these threads is about human nature. No matter what we hear, we only learn what we decide to learn.

It's like a muscle that contracts, but then relaxes back into the old thinking. "...but maybe if I just happened to run into Major Artist and played my latest song..."

Just can't stop a dreamer. It's beautiful when you think about it.

Barry,

One of the intersting things about working with other people, especially with younger people, it is often like a blank canvas. Having limited life experience, you can sort of live your life in hindsight through their eyes. That can lead you to write in differnent formats, different angles, etc. It can create all kinds of possibilities.

Mostly you have to be yourself. But if you are trying to get an artist to sing your words, you can't just put words in their mouths. That is where it becomes a little bit of you, a little bit of them. if you don't try to write for trends (which is a HUGE part of my teaching methods) yet keep those styles and avenues in mind (even if they show you what NOT TO DO)you can let the artist (and yourself) develop in their own ways. Sometimes YOU might become the NEXT TREND.

mab

Going by the theory that anybody who is not a friend or a relative. if 1000 buy your music randomly off of itunes, Let me know, Ill personally gurantee you 2000.

it means it was so good that people opened their wallets to buy it, more will.

But in any business, it;s not money that makes it work, money helps maginfy it.

I think the point is there is no such thing as a secret. if there are secrets, and we know about them, they are not secrets.

In order to be financially successful in music, you need the obvious things to happen, the greatest of which is LUCK.

Anybody who makes 200 million in music and says they werent lucky along the way, is flat out lying