JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Earning a Living with Music

I am starting this topic based on some ideas raised in another topic.

As has been mentioned in some of the posts, making money with music is tough. I have been talking to people locally to see how many people in Nebraska actually make enough money with music to earn a living without another job. The general consensus is about 20. Of course we are a small population state and not a know music center. But there are a few thousand serious musicians. Let us say there are only 2,000. That means that one out of 100 can make a living with it.

I wonder what you think about this issue. How many people can actually make a living with music?

Tom

I would say one out of a hundred can make something. I dont think one out of a hundred could make a living.

Making a living means making consistent money, a regular influx of money coming in. Not 20 cds sold, and 10 gigs last month, nada sold and one gig the next three months.

More likely to get one gig a week and make a part time income.

Also depends how much you need to live.

It's my full time job.

Most musicians I know do 3 0r 4 different things to make money.

Teach guitar, do recordings, gig, maybe sell a cd or two.

Without the teaching, id say they would have a hard time making it.

Writing for tv and movie can bring in good money if u have the contacts.

I don't teach. I write, record, and perform music full time. That is my gig. It's my full time job.

and could you make a living without performing?

Why would that be relevant? His focus is not writing songs for others, though he's had success doing that, but rather for himself as an artist who writes his own material and produces it as well. He'd be a different person if he didn't perform so his answer wouldn't matter.

By the way, I know lots of people making a living making music who are JPF members and are not famous. I wonder what empirical data you have used to determine only 20 people in your state make a living making music? I am pretty in tune with the musician and writer world and I couldn't come up with such a low number without a lot of quality data and knowledge of ALL genres of music and who is doing work in all of those. It's a grim projection of what is going on, but I feel like folks may not realize all that is going on out there. I am confident there are more than 20 people in your state making a full time living doing nothing but music. I'll be happy to explain how I come to my conclusion, if you can first give me your data and process for determining the number 20. (And also: how you came to the number of 2000 people who are "serious" musicians)?

Brian

I don't think there's a limit to the number of people who could make a living doing music. Assuming that your music is world-class, the only limitations are your own ambition and willingness to work hard and make smart choices.

It's not much different than any other freelancing or small business.

Yes.

Tom was the one who came up with 20, not me.

I said one out of a hundred. And an arbitrary number to give a idea of how many of the working musicians are making full time livings from music

That would be 80,000 out of the 8 million people in our state, I know they aint all musicians but still, way more than 20.

Firstly youd have define "living" 20 k, 30 k, 40 k 50 k, all the money at once, once a week, once a month etc, then taxes.

I ask Jody, because he is a proponent of this idea, if he is making a living with his songwriting, he is a rare bird indeed.

I honestly doubt he lives off his cd sales.

I know people making a living with music, but it's not one thing they do. And it has never been, somebody makes album, sells it. Never as easy as that

But again, more power to anyone. Im not sure why folks are so resistant to giving music away free, when trying to sell it, nobody will even see it.

Good for you, worked out for you. Wont for most.

Good to see somebody make money with songwriting alone, gee isnt that what everybiody wants here?

Here's food for thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuY6UlxS-vI&feature=relmfu

This is one of the most succesful bands in new jersey, used to be the nerds, who were playing all over the country. This out of bands playing gigs and doing covers as well as some originals. Not the Bon Jovis and Springsteens.

They sell everything from bumper stickers, to brownies, to cds, and of course playing live nearly every day of the week.

Clearly the most successfull band I know of here, and I know cd sales are not the big source of income. But they do sell them

Count me amongst the full-timers.24 years

Hey Jody, is that you on spotify with the "do you wannat play" songs. If so I heard the music for free on spotify, didnt cost a cent.

If so, I think I know how you are selling music...niche marketing

I did the same thing for a while, But I didnt have the home gear to bang out good enough recordings, I did sell a few simply by being the only oddball who was writing such songs.

You must have been reading "the indie band survival guide"

I heard another band "the boston sports band" actually it was the same guy for every city, I will say yours is better than his
But niche marketing is one way to do it.

Yup. I'm "one of the few." Actually I have quite a few really good friends who make their living solely off of writing and/or performing. It's all perspective. We don't give our stuff away for free, that I'm aware of. That's not to say we don't do some things to help increase fan base.

Yes. That is my song. One of my many songs. No, I'm not all one niche. It happened to be something that happened and I took it and ran with it. I had another songwriter/producer friend come to me to do something similar under another name and it's starting to run the same way for a much bigger sport.

I also license music to film trailers, movies, and TV shows [ http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/978295/page/1#Post978295 some of the TV stuff from two quarters ago ].

Recently finished up about 70 songs that are off to registration and copyright for my library. A library of around 725 songs that I have network deals with.

I've toured. I've done radio. I occasionally write for other projects.

I'm in the middle of finishing the next batch of songs for my next artist release. Going through final re-writes and arrangement tweaks - likely have it all tidied up by mid-december. I have a business plan put together for going balls out BIG with it. Plus I have other interested parties looking to see it do well.

I see the business for what it is. A business. I see the people that love my music for they are - awesome people willing to part with hard earned cash in order to purchase it.

Thus I have a very vested interest in seeing copyright and royalty law upheld - not wiped out. I fully understand there's no way to stop pirating or thieves. But those aren't fans. I can't worry about them. They don't support me. I worry about the ones that pay and who do support. I also worry and speak out about businesses attempting to reduce my livelihood via crap financial business efforts.

Want to keep bashing and questioning me?

I won't tell you, you can't make music for your living - you can. It's a lot of work.

[Time for lunch and then back to lyric re-writes and re-records on one of the demos.]

p.s. - it may not have cost you a cent, but I still get paid for it. Not as much as I should, but I get paid.

I didnt question anything. If you werent playing live, and didnt have a buzz, your music wouldnt sell. That was the point.

There seems to be an idea that if you make an album, or are a songwriter who manages to cowrite with somebody who made an album, that putting it on itunes or anywhere where music is sold, will result in sales. It wont.

I listened to some of you stuff on spotify your nick lowe cover and the rich song.

Studio based music is not my style but it sounds good.

None of the people selling albums here have that kind of sound behind them, that is another thing you must consider.

You make it sound like anybody who wants to do it can, the certainly cant.

Thanks for giving me your schedule, I was wondering what u might be doing....

"Studio based music is not my style but it sounds good. None of the people selling albums here have that kind of sound behind them, that is another thing you must consider." - December

May have been true in the old days, but with today's technology (DAW’s) not so. Music libraries are jam-packed with broadcast quality recordings from thousands of musicians. Yes, Jody has a solid sound, but I’m sure his business tactics are as much or more important to his success.

John

No, it's still true. Jody is getting great sound. Others are not, though some are real good.

I dont doubt his business savy, im doubting that others are going to be able to do it.

And it's not just sound, it's production.

As the guy on cdbaby said he spent 20k on an album he cant give away, it doesnt work for everyone.

http://diymusician.cdbaby.com/2012/...0-making-an-album-i-cant-even-give-away/

Come back when you have a clue. Sheesh dude. Jody's not an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing.

Didnt say he was an idiot, but why dont we do a test.

50 artists on this board, all listen to Jody. How many do you think will be selling albums?

the only idiot is one who believes Jody didnt get some breaks along the way.

I still doubt he's making a living from cd sales, but I dont mind saying he is rare here.

There's plenty of good books on the subject, not everybody is going to do it, that is the clue that should be taken.

I think I just got a headache.

Peace out

Maybe you have a weak head...

Might be one side of your head with nothing in it.

LOLLLLLLLL

Ok say no more, im done with the conversation it wont change the lack of album sales.....

I think I will leave it at that buddy. Obviously you're not that great at making friends. Good luck in your future as a musical philanthropist.

and you are great at it. So id be your friend if I said Jody was a music business genius?

ok J,,,, nah cant do it.

Celebrating a couple people on the board, is not my idea of making friendships. it's more like a regime.

Hope Jody keeps making good music.

But you crack me up watt

You can have any opinion you want about Jody. You and I are not friends because I don't know you and you don't know me.

LOL

You told me to get a clue before, now I can have my own opinion.

Keep cracking me up. clears up my sinuses.

Time to exit the conversation.

Good idea. I'm gonna go do some writing.

And now back to the original question......

I live in Saint Peterburg, FL, pop 250,000, a part of the Tampa Bay region (pop 2.8 million). I can easily name 20 people who make a full time living from music who I know personally or at least have met, but this is a tourist town so there are a million (well almost) beach bars and restaurants that have live music multiple evenings per week. Most of these musicians are making their living from gigs and tips, not music sales or tee-shirts. (I am in tune with singer/songwriter, blues, and classic rock people. I have no idea about rappers and dance club people.) When I lived in Plano TX (pop 300,000), there was essentially no live music. You had to drive into Dallas to find it, so it depends where you live.

They spend a lot of time hustling their next gigs and they play five or so times a week to make a living. I would guess they make between $50 and $200 per gig and probably average $125. They are not getting rich but mostly they would rather do that than work a "day job".

There are a bunch of recording studios in town and my friend who runs one usually has a session every day, as do some of the others. So there are always people recording their originals.

I dunno what all this means......

Tom,

There must be countless musicians making a living from music, since music involves many aspects.

There's full time cover bands in clubs and bars and for private parties, as well as for house or ship band work for casino and cruise ships, etc.

There's many music teachers of all kinds of instruments that might also perform, and might also sell CD's or downloads of their instructional videos, and/or for any original or cover song product.

Then there's the many studio musicians, which I am one, along with the added job of studio engineer that many also have, (NY's" Substudio", thanks to Mike Caro)! Can't forget the studio owners and all their engineers. Many of them. How about the Demo houses, who hire writers of music and lyrics for those seeking their services? Nashville alone must have plenty of them, which employs people working in "music". How about the Mastering Houses? One doesn't have to write their own music to be making a living from music. Discmakers! An indirect, but, relative means of "making a living from music"!

There's composers that get hired to do project work of all kinds. From local musicals to Broadway, *where Mike Caro and I are hopefully going to hear our music efforts presented. There must be many of us doing the same things, getting paid by the producer of any given musical, then having possible agreements for future performance royalties from units or downloads sold. The list goes on and on, as far as what "earning a living with music" involves.

I didn't even bring up singer/songwriters. I know many who are full time doing just that. They perform all around, and sell merchandise at their gigs. (T-shirts, mugs, hats, CD's). They get paid by those two efforts. How about the agents that book them? They are making a living from music!

There must be a complete list of what I am trying to point out. Along with demographics to show percentages. Whatever the numbers are, just going by my initial thoughts, there's a LOT of people making a living in music! Just the "ways and means" will be all over the map! But, "music" would be the reason.

Johnny D

That has been my experience/observation as well.

The hybrid musician can make a living, however non secure as it may be. The ones who do a few things can make enough money to live, maybe not necessarily enough to make a living.

Health insurance? Pensions? College Funds.

I think theres more to making a living than having enough money to live.

But I guess in some ways it beats kissing a bosses arse 40 hours a week.

I know some who play hybrid musician by night, and work some kind of a job by day for benefits.

I don't need a pension, I'll do this until they chuck me in the ground, my student loans are taken care of, and in my town if a fellow musician falls ill, we have benefit conerts to pay their medical bills.

Bob,

You should at least have catastrophic medical coverage for the big stuff even if you have a very large deductible to keep the rate down. Fundraisers will not come close to paying medical bills for anything serious. I had some surgery in April and spent a week in the hospital - the bill was $70,000. The insurance company actually paid it off for $10,000, but even so, a fundraiser will not even scratch the surface.

Are you married? Kids?

I admire the determination, it's not a career where alot of questions get asked, it's more about it being who you are.

Will u hold a concert if u need a couple root canals and some bridge work done? LOL

Will u pay for meds, some of which costs hundreds. LoL

Thats cool dude, at least you are walking the walk.

I wonder where this would stand in washington, you think musicians should get health care some how?

My initial thoughts were that a musician offers a valueable service to the community, and should not have to worry about making a living, just making music.

If that were the case, alot of great music could happen, and alot less stress.

Just not the way it is now though

Affordable insurance for musicians is one of the reasons I'm happy Obama was re-elected. It basically means the Affordable Care Act will stand. I think Obamacare will help entrepreneurs and freelancers, and that includes musicians.

If we REALLY mean what we say about musicians being entrepreneurs and small business owners, then we should make sure musicians have more health care options they can actually afford, so they don't have to take the risk of going uninsured or take on day jobs for health benefits. No one should have to RELY on fundraisers, charity or MusicCares to pay medical bills.

Fundraisers are nice, but Colin is correct. It's not nearly enough. Seems like every month I get an email or Facebook message asking me to donate to a relief fund for a musician who got hurt at the day job. One guy fell off a roof doing construction. Another had BOTH of her hands crushed and now she cannot work OR play music. Neither had insurance because there was no affordable option for them.

Obamacare is flawed, but it is something, which is better than nothing, which is what most full-time musicians get when they're injured.

If you don't agree, fine. But let's not pretend we care about musicians getting the shaft from Spotify because we obviously don't care about them when they get hurt or sick. Rant over.

DRS,

It's clear you do not understand how things work and seem unwilling to take facts from people who DO understand how things work. So please stop taking over discussions and rambling and rambling and ruining it for everyone having a reasonable and educational discussion.

FYI, I was responding to the entire discussion as started by Tom who brought up the idea that there were 20 musicians making a living in ALL of NE. I'd like to know what he based it on.

Brian

Just finished lyric and demo recording tweaks on another song and thought I'd pop back in...

Exactly what breaks did I get? I'd sure like to know.

Did I get a break due to years of 8+ hours a day of practice? Did I get a break from a University education or the additional music school eduction after that? Did I get a break from going to music conferences where I was networking? Did I get a break from playing crap gigs in bars? Did I get a break from going on the road on my own dime? Did I get a break learning to use recording gear? Did I get a break in learning the business?

I work my ass off. I hone my abilities. I get things done. People that know me, know this about me.

I stand by my statement that anyone can make music for a living. I feel like only people that say you can't make it are the ones holding someone back, whether it's due to a failed dream or some other negative energy or a lazy work ethic. It's true this business can chew people up and spit them out. But that doesn't mean one can't navigate it and transcend.

Time for some more food, then I'm out to enjoy another group of artist's creativity for a change via a movie.

Ok I see how you were responding, sorry to assume it was for me.

But im not sure what I didnt know how things worked? Were talking about making a living with music, and we had a few threads about making money with ones songs.

Jody is talented, smart and hard working.Other more talented, just as smart and hard working folks are not selling music, licensing music and making a living.

Why isnt anybody other than Jody, particuarly the ones arguing with me, making a living with their songwriting alone?

Cause there isnt enough opportunity to do so.

The one guy says he dont need a pension, hell die on stage, dont need anything else, and IM wrong about making a living as a musician?

I only take over a thread when people gang up. As if one comment coming in after the other reinforces the correctness of the "right ones" thoughts.

What does it for me it the talent of the people doing the talking.

But I guess im the problem, everybody seems to get along here, so might need a new atmosphere.

Happy Holidays

You've been a member since 2001, and been talking music and business, and all seem to agree with you,

So who is doing what you are doing?

I have a friend who is an anchor on TV, first in cali now on the east coast, none of his contemporaries are able to even work in the office of the tv studio.

He doesnt tell people how to become a tv anchor, he knows he is fortunate, and most wont get anything out of a communications major.

I cant tell people facts that shift for individuals.

Anyway good luck to you, I didnt mean to drag you down, you seem like a nice guy, But it's the robot ness of others that annoys.

Later

DCR, to answer your question if you MUST know.. No I have no kids, no, I have no wife, {twice divorced, thanks for asking} If I need a root canal or a minor procedure done I make enough to cover it. I don't feel I need to explain myself further to you at this point. My track record speaks for itself, thank you, please drive through...

And Jody and Scott need not explain themselves EITHER,{See above}

I have no idea who here on the JPF boards are doing the same thing. I know several JPF members that don't come to the boards that do similar stuff and make a living in music.

I can't compare being a musician to being a TV anchor. One fundamental difference is that there is a finite amount of anchor slots. I'm aware it's a highly competitive field and those that get an anchor spot are likely to hold on to them as long as they can or as long as they can climb the ladder of anchor ranking [i.e. getting to bigger markets]. Music on the other hand, is not so finite. There's way more outlets and way more niches that can be filled and/or created. Someone can always come along and invent a new market/genre in music. I don't think it's the same for TV anchors.

All of my working musician friends know it's a lot of work, but are also grateful to be making a living. Additional a vast majority of them are very helpful to others. Whether it's giving advice or passing along a gig that might be right for a friend. Musicians that are open and helpful to others often get the bigger and better gigs. At least that is my anecdotal experience.

I have spoken on panels at conferences for the California Copyright Conference, SESAC Songwriter's Bootcamp, and other events. Why? Because I'm friends with people who have asked me to do so. They respect my opinions and experiences. It doesn't hurt that I'm coherent and engaging on stage. I'm happy to share my knowledge of what has and hasn't worked.

I know full well that I cannot be the be-all-end-all of music to everyone. I also know that my music is not for everyone. But my writing and production skills can allow me to do many types of music and that is something very few can do effectively. I worked my ass off to get to that level of proficiency and I'm still learning.

There are some fundamental things about the music business to applies to all those who decide to jump in. The scary thing is, so many writers/composers ignore them or don't care and may years later wonder why they're not making enough money. For as much education that's available today, to ignore these fundamental things or pass them off, is being willfully lazy or disrespectful to one's self and others in the business.

This is going to sound like a dick comment: Most of the time a big pro working musician will turn a blind eye to someone who is so willfully lazy or disrespectful because they're busy making a living. They don't have time to waste on someone not willing to learn how it works. But if one understands the game and they're not a dick about it, those same pros can be your best friend and great company.

I keep a sign in my studio that says: Don't Be A Dick. It's a good reminder to remain cool. As the JPF motto goes: We're All In This Together.

p.s. - sometimes we do things for free because we love it, or just want to be a part of it. Case in point, the JPF theme song. I was fortunate to be asked to sing one line of a verse (much like a We Are The World Kind of thing). I'll never forget JPF member Harold Payne standing in the vocal booth with me. He turned to me and said "I really loved the way you sang the line, it's so much better than what we intended." This was immediately after I got grilled by the one of the producers and asked to do it differently. It's little gems like that that keep music from being just a job. BTW - Harold is another JPF member who makes his living performing and writing, he's one of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

I didnt need to know, to know about you, but to make a point.

Everybodys track record speaks for itself.

And your not telling me anything I dont know already.

But I wouldnt count on a charity concert everytime one gets ill.

For a bunch of folks who dont need to explain themselves, theres awhole lot of splainin going on.

Ok Sir, When My niece and nephew ask me about a career in music, ill have them stop by and ask about your plan.

Charity concerts??? If everybody had a concert we wouldn't need helth care reform.

Ok Pal, not wanting to fight.

If music could be made without needing to make a living, I think it would revolutionize music.

Might not be as much non sensicle songs on the radio that are made to solely make money.

But too much crap beats out great stuff, and too many great talents cant do anything.

Im not really concerned with making the money but for having even one known song. Something to sum up all the time I put into writing and music in general. Of all the bands I played in since high school, I dont think one was as serious about writing songs.

Songs were songs, most didnt realize that some songs were alot better than others. lol too me a long time to figure that out myself.

But Im fascinated with how marketing and music has changed, it interests me.

be good.

December,

I am a bit creeped out that you found my phone number and called me, leaving a voicemail expressing your disapproval that I stuck up for Jody.

Lose my number and don't call me again.

Thank you

Sorry I woke up your husband.

Anybody ever see this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwyCbwu9jRQ

Brian. Is it a normal practice on JPF to let harrassing stalkers have free reign on your site? Just wondering.

Stalkers usually stalk people they give a [naughty word removed] about. Not seeing the link here...

LOL

Dude your kinda lame. Play the voicemail for us, let me guess you deleted it.