JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Is Songwriting Dead?

If you dont care, why do u keep responding like I insulted your mother. If you think songwriting as an art is flourishing, you have every right to believe that.

keep on keeping on my friend.

Dad: The Beatles wrote great pop songs.

Son: Miley Cyrus writes great pop songs.

Other son: Brother are you a moron?

HiDee Gents, again...

I've enjoyed this thread, 'cuz it's forced me to TRY to find ONE "Great Song" we could ALL agree-upon AS "Great"..& maybe use that for a springboard in our Further Writings...

I figured Paul McCartney's "YESTERDAY" might qualify...so...I Googled the Lyrics...&..found that typed-out & in front of me, they kinda Overall-Sucked...JMO...(As a Lyricist).

The same's prolly true..lyrically..with the Stones' "(Can't Get No) SATISFACTION"...which is a personal Fave to listen-to..even after 40-some years since it was a Hit.

So...What One-or-Two "Great Ones" might we ALL agree-upon?

Lookin' Forwards to more folks fillin' in The Answers...

Best Wishes, & Big Guy-Hugs,
Stan

Glad you are looking for a universal meeting place. lol

I agree yesterday is not a great song, it deals mostly on a melancholy level. Alot of beatle songs sucked. but they have at least 50 AMAZING songs which most of us would be lucky to have.

Satisifaction is one of the great ROCK songs, the riff and attitude make it, as a crafted song, it was probably written in a few minutes.

Its hard not to let what we like interfere, like it be hard to accept a song you never heard before as the best. But it should be hard to agree what is well crafted and what isint, if we know the craft.

How bout...?

Racing In The Street

When townes van zandt covers a song, u can bet it's a great written song.

This song has it all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecunQO_uoIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrMioT5MUqY

Paul is old but the song is new lol

"I figured Paul McCartney's "YESTERDAY" might qualify...so...I Googled the Lyrics...&..found that typed-out & in front of me, they kinda Overall-Sucked... - Stan

Yeah, I prefer the original lyrics Stan:

John


"Scambled Eggs"

Scrambled eggs
All my troubles seemed so far away
But it looks like they are here to stay
Oh, all I eat are scrambled eggs
Every day, I would have my eggs a different way
All of a sudden I would eat them all day
You know what it was, it was scrambled eggs
There is something wrong,
What it is, I cannot say
It is gnawing at my brain
Why do I love the scrambled eggs?
In an omelet or dessert soufflé
I have turned into an egg junkie
Oh, I am stuck on scrambled eggs
"That food's gotta go, take it slow"
All the doctors say
I say, "You are wrong"
How I long for scrambled eggs
Scrambled eggs
It is such an easy food to make
For a meal or just a quick snack break
Oh how I love the scrambled eggs
Mmmm,mmmm,mmmmm!

It would probably fit right in today, Paul was truly ahead of his time.

:eyeroll:

Guess I'll nominate Stan by Eminem & Dido and Gordon Lightfoot - If You Could Read My Minf if we're talking lyrically

Stan lyrics

If You Could Read My Mind lyrics

I find the gordon lightfoot song boring, but there is no denying it's great craftmanship.

If you listen to the melody and the syntax of his voice, its hypnotic like a physcologist talking to a patient, hence if you could read my mind.

Masterpiece. Thats craft.

The dido song blah, good but not draw jobbing. But I remember Eminem and Elton doing that at the grammys one year it was very entertaining.

Hard to anaylyze rap songs in context of craft, it;s not supposed to be anything but street talk with rhymes.

eminem is very talented, not just anybody can do what he does, but it's not high art as far as lyrics, just sounds cool to the ear. ever notice that rap songs never get covered?

its cause the performance is what it's all about not the writing.

But he does have some good rhyming skills.

Hard to anaylyze rap songs in context of craft, it;s not supposed to be anything but street talk with rhymes.

That's a pretty naive understanding of rap. A lot of the rap you hear on the radio is crap but not all of it is.

Eminem has "Some good rhyming skills"?
SOME?

I give up on you

I didnt say any of it was crap, I just said it;s not great songwriting. the bulk of it is a message and the sound of the word.

When they rap about something important it's a powerful medium, but if you want to be a songwriter, thats not the thing to study.

His forte is his talking melodies. he makes controversey with his lyrics, I dont know that any of his lyrics cut to the core of what it's like to be a human being.

But he's a great rap artist, very talented.

Eminems rapped tons about his life. Listen to Cleaning Out My Closet.

Listen to his song Beautiful where he raps about how the death of his best friend
affected him and how it led to his addictions and how he battled through it.

If you think his lyrics are great, over his rap melodies, then study them and try to do it yourself. To me no matter what he wrote would sound good cause he writes good rap melodies and has a great rap tone.

If you want to write song lyrics he wont help you.

But I dont know how you can list one of his raps as one of the great crafted lyrics of all.

As long as he doesn't rap in the chipmunk voice like he did in the relapse CD, he sounds good, I agree with that but it's not just his melodies that make him fans.

But I dont know how you can list one of his raps as one of the great crafted lyrics of all.

I don't know how you could list a Beatles song as one of the great crafted lyrics of all, but you did. Beatles are good but their lyrics are simple.

You mentioned Elanor Rigby and the chorus is

All the lonely people
Where do they all come from?
All the lonely people
Where do they all belong?

You consider that greatly crafted?

It looks like a 10 year old wrote that

My favorite rap was "Gangsta's Paradise" by Coolio. Great rap-writing.

Gangsta's Paradise: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xu4k_gangsta-s-paradise_music

Of course it's more melodic than most rap.

John

Firstly, u dont read a song lyric, u sing it.

And you dont read a song using its chorus as the only piece.
In crafting a song, the chorus is usually broad and basic, a simple idea that the verses support.

It would seem any idiot could write:

Sweet Home Alabama that's the chorus.

Or

Let It Be, thats the chorus


It shows you think songwriting is just words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Rigby

But the thread is going nowhere, going to record.

Have fun!

Yes, what a great song!

The verses to Elanor Rigby are incredibly weak as well in my opinion. I was actually stunned you used that song as an example.

If I had to choose a Beatles song that impressed me craft wise it would be Here Comes The Sun.

Is songwriting dead? I will let you know. In the meantime go listen to:

ODE TO THE LITTLE BROWN SHACK by Billy Edd Wheeler
HAUNTED HUNGRY HEART by Slim Whitman or
ALL OF THE MONKEYS AIN'T IN THE ZOO by Tommy Collins. There you go!

I am not sure how you can say that it makes no sense. I haven't studied the lyric at all -- but my musical sense tells me it is a very well written story song. The message/story was perfectly understandable to me the first time I heard it.

You got a fast car
And I want a ticket to go anywhere
Maybe we make a deal
Maybe together we can get somewhere
Anyplace is better
Starting from zero got nothing to lose
Maybe we'll make something
But me myself I got nothing to prove

You got a fast car
And I got a plan to get us out of here
I been working at the convenience store
Managed to save just a little bit of money
We won't have to drive too far
Just 'cross the border and into the city
You and I can both get jobs
And finally see what it means to be living

so, hes got a fast car,
what is the signifcance of a FAST car?
especially when they "wont have to drive too far"?

starting from zero? She later says she managed to save some money... not zero.

now...

You got a fast car
But is it fast enough so we can fly away
We gotta make a decision
We leave tonight or live and die this way

now it has to be fast enough to fly away? when before it was a fast car not driving too far lol

and when did this happen...?

You got a fast car
And we go cruising to entertain ourselves
You still ain't got a job
And I work in a market as a checkout girl
I know things will get better
You'll find work and I'll get promoted
We'll move out of the shelter
Buy a big house and live in the suburbs

first she was talking about driving into the city so they both could get jobs, but now they are entertaining themselves driving around, and he dont have a job. when and how did she become a checkout girl?

and when did this happen...?

she managed to save money from a grocery store, and they were both going to drive not to far into the city to get jobs, now she has a job?

You got a fast car
And I got a job that pays all our bills
You stay out drinking late at the bar
See more of your friends than you do of your kids
I'd always hoped for better
Thought maybe together you and me would find it
I got no plans I ain't going nowhere
So take your fast car and keep on driving

the ending is the same thought as the beginning, they havent left yet, but somehow she found a job as a checkout girl, and makes enough money to pay the bills, but didnt she work at a grocery store anymore? remember, they still havent left....

You got a fast car
But is it fast enough so you can fly away
You gotta make a decision
You leave tonight or live and die this way


All im saying is the song is all over the place, not the kind of thing a well crafted song would be like. the tenses and the pov shifts all over, its hard to discern scene from scene.

I think it;s a great song, I understand it, I feel it, but it's not great crafting, it's more an emotional song.

it's actually a rip from Born to Run, same idea, two lovers looking for escape and redemption in a car.

great song though, just talking strictly craft.

Waal, I see somebody mentioned Gordon Lightfoot, so I'll nominate his "Wreck of The Edmund Fitzgerald" as one of those "Truly Great Ones"....Commercial Hit/Fabulous Tribute/Downright DIFFERENT from what's Usually on the Pop Charts....STILL Great to Listen-To...

DRS - a bit touchy? You need to realize that people are allowed to disagree with you.

STAN,

Yesterday. this song was written in 1963 but the lyric is

perfect for the music. Stan songs are not novels

some of the best are simple messages.

What you have in this song is Perfect Prosody,

Try writing a Lyric with a melody Stan one given you buy a

proper songwriter and you may get some satisfaction.

Being simple in lyrics is not being ignorant or stupid

Simplicity can take a lot of work.

Yesterday was one of the most recorded songs of all time

Besides being a massive seller.

Try studying meter STAN and all it's variations, and you

may get better results.

Best Wishes Anyhow.

No Not touchy, If someone gives a response I accept and give another response, so far you were the only one who made it a shouting match.

I simply gave kevin the reason I say its not well crafted as a lyric, I didnt take his response as an attack, he just wanted to know.

I dont care if anyone or everyone agrees with me, thats what makes the world go round.

Yeah I agree, I think the prosody comes from talking, when we talk we usually use perfect prosody.

It's when we sing, it gets tough.

He makes good rap records, I just wont call him a great writer.

Here is my memory of the song: It's a song about dreaming about a better life different than the one you have seen everyone else around you fall into.

Driving fast on the roads with the wind blowing in her hair makes her fell alive and free and she hopes things will be better. Yes she got a job (maybe they did move to the city -- I would have to read it), but they are living in a shelter for now.

In the end, the bum of a husband/boyfriend refuses to get a job (or can't) and she sees her future dissolving in maybe what her mom went through. It is a powerful and well written story -- pretty sad though.

well instead of going by memory, read the lyric. how can u go by memory? Im not saying its not a good story, just a incoherent and disorganized one.

She got two jobs... even though they both can find jobs by traveling to the city.

shes starting from zero with nothing to lose, but has a job that can pay all their bills?

And the song never takes place as they talk about leaving, and at the end they are still leaving.

thats not well crafted.

This was kinda funny, apparently they get a little confused too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBOHtHg9Ci0

Looks like my memory is pretty good (although I forgot about the mother leaving, daddy drinking and them having kids!). I am having trouble understanding why you can't understand what it going on. I guess we will just have to disagree on this one.

Fast Car
Tracy Chapman

You've got a fast car
I wanna a ticket to anywhere
Maybe we make a deal
Maybe together we can get somewhere
Any place is better
Starting from zero, got nothing to lose
Maybe we'll make something
Me, myself, I've got nothing to prove

You've got a fast car
I've got a plan to get us out of here
Been working at the convenience store
Managed to save just a little bit of money
Won't have to drive too far
Just cross the border and into the city
You and I can both get jobs
And finally see what it means to be living

See my old man's got a problem
Live with the bottle, that's the way it is
He says his body's too old for working
His body's too young, to look like his
When mama went off and left him
She wanted more from life than he could give
I said somebody's got to take care of him
So I quit school and that's what I did

You've got a fast car
Is it fast enough so we can fly away?
We gotta make a decision
Leave tonight or live and die this way

Say remember when we were driving, driving in your car
Speed so fast it felt like I was drunk
City lights lay out before us
And your arm felt nice wrapped 'round my shoulder
And I had a feeling that I belonged
I had a feeling I could be someone, be someone, be someone

You've got a a fast car
We go cruising entertain ourselves
You still ain't got a job
Now I work in the market as a checkout girl
I know things will get better
You'll find work and I'll get promoted
We'll move out of the shelter
Buy a bigger house and live in the suburbs

Say remember when we were driving, driving in your car
Speeds so fast it felt like I was drunk
City lights lay out before us
And your arm felt nice wrapped 'round my shoulder
And I had a feeling that I belonged
I had a feeling I could be someone, be someone, be someone

You've got a fast car
I've got a job that pays all our bills
You stay out drinking late at the bar
See more of your friends than you do of your kids
I'd always hoped for better
Thought maybe together you and me'd find it
I got no plans and I ain't going nowhere
So take your fast car and keep on driving

Say remember when we were driving, driving in your car
Speeds so fast it felt like I was drunk
City lights lay out before us
And your arm felt nice wrapped 'round my shoulder
And I had a feeling that I belonged
I had a feeling I could be someone, be someone, be someone

You've got a fast car
Is it fast enough so you can fly away?
You gotta make a decision
Leave tonight or live and die this way

If u think it's focused and clear like a GREAT crafted lyric should be, thats fine.

I think it would be nitpicked up and down if somebody posted it as just a lyric here. Doesnt mean its wrong or right.

Just cant put it in my GREAT CRAFTED song list.

We'll agree to disagree.

If you noticed, I didn't use the words "great" and "craft" anywhere in my descriptions. "Great" is an opinion and "great craft" doesn't always lead to a great song.

I will say, however, that Fast Car is "focused and clear" to me.

Oh ok safe answer. so its neither clear nor unclear, but its clear in YOUR mind.

3 x 3 to me equals 15, others may think differently, but to me it equals 15.

Can never be wrong that way!

enjoy your afternoon.

Beauty is STILL in the eye of the Beholder. What I may think is great you may not.

A couple of songs that were hits that I thought SUCKED were:
CANDY MAN and ELVIRA. WOLVERTON MOUNTAIN was another.

YESTERDAY by the Beatles is a pretty good song. BUT, A WALK IN THE BLACK FORREST is a great song!

The question wasnt if it was great or not.

the question was is it clear and focused. I outline in detail why it is not, kev decided to ignore it and say to HIM, its focused.

Talking about the kind of things a publisher might reject a song, for its lack of craft in its focus.

I already said I think its a great song, provocative and good meklody and the guitar hook is great.

As a lyric Its not clear. thats easy to see if u want to.

First of all, asking if songwriting is dead on a songwriting website is a bit preposterous.

Second, this is a place for real people with real names to share ideas and build community. December Rock Star, I encourage you to not post anonymously.

And in the spirit of this thread (stating opinion as fact): songwriting craft is only a tool to create decent songs when inspiration alone won't carry the day. Some days we sit down to write because we want to write... some days because we have to write. We communicate ideas/sentiments/etc... in song, not how crafty our lyrics are. If they happen to be crafty, then more power to you. Crafty writing is a means to an end, not the end itself.

Does it matter if Yesterday or Fast Car are crafty? No. Their success and the mark they left on our musical heritage speak for themselves. They communicated to the world... and in the case of Yesterday, we are still talking about it some 50 years later.

Mike D.

Well I think you are correct, When I did post it, I didnt mean it as an attack on anyones pursuit of songwriting, as I still write myself. All it simply asked if songwrintg as a pure art is gone, seems to be. obviously songs are needed.

it's synonmous with asking if singing matters in todays music. I dont think anyone will stop singing or be offended, they would simply say what they hear.

or does being a great drummer matter anymore? Does anybody care about a great drummer? I dont think so being we have all kinds of drum software. But does that mean drumming should go away no?

I understand your point on craft in the end it dont matter, if success is the goal. if writing a great crafted song is the goal, thats a different thing.

If anyone wants to know me they can call me.

I dont know anybody here anyway. if its a problem for u I can post on songramp.

Im here to talk songwriting not start a tea club.

I gave my 411 to another site and was kick off anyway because one admin didnt like me. nobody stuck their neck out for me either, so it didnt really matter who i was, they werent friends.

Thanks for your thoughts.

LOL, Methinks you doth protest too much, sometimes. I think I said I thought it was clear, focused and easy to understand. You said it wasn't. Really not much common ground to work on there. I read over your points -- I just didn't think you were being serious. I just thought you were arguing for the sake of arguing. Did they move to the city and she took a different job (a lot like the first job)? I think so, but if they didn't it wouldn't make much of a difference to me.


Say remember when we were driving, driving in your car
Speeds so fast it felt like I was drunk
City lights lay out before us
And your arm felt nice wrapped 'round my shoulder
And I had a feeling that I belonged
I had a feeling I could be someone, be someone, be someone


That's the significance of the "Fast Car". If you can't understand that stanza, then just keep writing and stop analyzing, the analysis is not that important.

Kevin

Ok I can see that it comes late, but it shows that he HAS a fast car, not why she NEEDS one.

and the real problem is that all the events in the song happen, but they didnt leave.

shes talking about leaving in his fast car to somwhere, but
somehow she finds a job, two jobs actually, one where she saved a little money, and another that pays all their bills. where did that job come from, when they havent driven to the city yet?

an error in tense and in chronolgy will get u zapped every time, by a critiquer.

I can surmise what happens, shes speaking whatever comes out as to logically mapping out the events of the song.

Not saying she is wrong, but its not something a great song craftsman would do.

uhhh .... Chronology -- is that the issue? ha, ha -- I think the time line is quite perfectly laid out. Sorry if you don't see it.

Thats fine only it's not lol

in friendly combatance I submit this:


[b]You got a fast car
And I want a ticket to go anywhere
Maybe we make a deal
Maybe together we can get somewhere
Anyplace is better
Starting from zero got nothing to lose
Maybe we'll make something
But me myself I got nothing to prove[/b]

You got a fast car
But is it fast enough so we can fly away
We gotta make a decision
We leave tonight or live and die this way


so far so good, she is talking about leaving.

You got a fast car
And we go cruising to entertain ourselves
You still ain't got a job
And I work in a market as a checkout girl
I know things will get better
You'll find work and I'll get promoted
We'll move out of the shelter
Buy a big house and live in the suburbs

ok now the dream is buying a house in the suburbs, still not off.

You got a fast car
And I got a job that pays all our bills
You stay out drinking late at the bar
See more of your friends than you do of your kids
I'd always hoped for better
Thought maybe together you and me would find it
I got no plans I ain't going nowhere
So take your fast car and keep on driving

ok this is the problem, how does she have a job that pays all their bills, wasnt she planning on leaving to find that job? if she has the job, they dont need to leave.

Shes talking as if she is in this place she was dreaming of, but according to the song, they havent gone there yet.

as the final stanza says

You got a fast car
But is it fast enough so you can fly away
You gotta make a decision
You leave tonight or live and die this way

shes runs through scenes kind of whimsically, it wouldnt fly on for a writer trying to get published.

for an artist, they can write how and what they want.

But the question was is it a greatly crafted song, lyrically id have to say no, but I really like the song alot.

You sort of left out the two transitional stanzas in your analysis, but that's OK -- you're convinced on your viewpoint. The fact that you can't grasp the chronology doesn't mean that it is not there.


Hey, we agree on something! This song was not written for someone else to record -- it's an artist song. Just because it is not "publisher" material has no real bearing on any argument about craft.

very clever. But that IS partly what makes a song greatly crafted. one of the basic things u learn when studying songwriting, or taking a course, is that your song should not flip around, it should have on cohesive linear storyline.

I would call this song more artistic than crafted.

we were talking great craft.

Like Bill oreilly, ill give you the last word, if you wish to opine.

LOL

No I give up. I think you know what's going on, you are just wasting my time by trying to play devil's advocate or something.

no thats u. I didnt see you question aaron about calling eleanor rigby a weak song, u didnt bother, but u wanted to challenge me.

Carry on Mr Advocate