JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Success in Nashville?

I've been thinking about this asking this question, so here goes: What is the ratio of successful Country songwriters or performing artists between those who live in Nashville vs those who travel there? This is not necessarily to start a bitter debate, just something I've been wondering about. I think a lot of us have heard that, in order to really make it in Nashville you have to move there. However, is this based on actual songwriter/artist development to reach a certain plateau, or is it more about investing in Nashville?

I've been 'blessed' to become a solicited songwriter to pitch songs there but, even when I go in and meet with the BMI's Asst. VP of Writer-Publisher Relations or the Associate Dir. Of Writer-Publisher Relations, which I always do when I go, while I've always been told by BMI that I am an excellent songwriter, at the end of the conversation they always say "Orlando, you really need to move to Nashville and plug in here, get with other songwriters and collaborate with them." Is this another way of saying "No matter how good you are, in order to be taken seriously by Nashville, you will need to invest in Nashville"? Personally, I love Nashville, and if I could, I would move there.

So, again, I wonder what the success ratio is in Country music between Nashville residents vs non?

Your thoughts?

There are 45,000 songwriters in Nashville. Maybe 450 are in the realm of successful by any minimal commercial standard. Perhaps 45 are really successful - ie making a very good living from it.

Tom

Hey Orlando, I'd guess the scale is definitely tipped to those who live here. Ease and expense of communication, and tools such as Skype, are probably moving it somewhat. I've heard arguments from people who insist that people absolutely have to live here, I disagree with that. My position is this: the odds are so stacked against "success" itself, that whether one lives here or not does not significantly reduce them. I think there are more significant factors including: the quality of work, personality, amount of time one can spend here, and luck.

Consider Mark Barnette, who used to post here. Works like the devil - knowledgable - talented - has connections - how many recent commercially successful songs?

Tom

All other things being roughly equal, it's who you know.

I find it more useful to think that it's not who you know, but who knows you.

Getting major label cuts is extremely difficult for those who've gotten major label cuts before and live in Nashville.
It's even more difficult for outsiders.
It's even more difficult for writers who don't perform or have artist potential.

MAB's written mountains of INFO on this topic at:

Ch 1: http://www.songramp.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=57759
Ch 2: http://www.songramp.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=63466

A few writers I can think of, who don't live in Nashville but have had success there are:

Steve Seskin "Life's a Dance"

Hugh Prestwood "Song Remembers When"

Helen Darling "Bring on the Rain"

Susan Gibson "Wide Open Spaces"

Diane Warren http://www.realsongs.com/

Kara Dioguardi doesn't live in Nashville and has had some success there.

Each has a story of how they developed the ability write incredible songs and how they got each cut.

Getting cuts is very difficult, between shrinking artist rosters at labels, artists who write their own songs, producers who write and great writers who are already in their inner circles.

Hi Nite

any success at all that I have had myself is mostly due to the fact that I moved here.....all my co-writers are far better than I am and they only even talk to me cause I am in Nashville.....I would never have been able to hook up with them if I had stayed in Virginia Beach Virginia-which is where I would much rather be....Nashville doesnt even have a oceanfront......had I known that I never would have moved here........

best of luck to you my friend.....

Tom

It really is about supply and demand.

If they don't know you and you don't have developed relationships
over time....then ya better write somethin' that is so da*ned good
and better than most of the established writer's that ya might have an outside chance of getting noticed.
It is all about relationships.
That is what I have been told by those who are way more knowledgeable than I.

My views on living in Nashville....Like Dunbar said, it's who knows you more than who you know. Like Tom said, the number of approachable quality co-writers is better than anywhere else on earth, and you hear the rumors, some of which turn out to be true.

I did a database once...Bob McDill had more chart records as a writer than anyone else between 1975 and 2005, with most coming between 75 and 95. He had about 200 chart records. Not all were hits. He had more than anyone but he only averaged roughly 10 a year. That's from one the best who wound up living not in Nashville but in Brentwood on the same street as the Governor of Tennessee. That's how hard it is when you're there.

check out Sonny Throckmorton, there was a long stretch when he was the hottest writer in Nashville

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Throckmorton

http://www.nashvillesongwritersfoundation.com/t-z/sonny-throckmorton.aspx

http://texasheritagesongwriters.com/bios/sonny_throckmorton.php

http://www.allmusic.com/artist/sonny-throckmorton-p131804/biography

Julie Carter-Moriva might be a good writer to study
Her story's inspiring
http://www.songramp.com/news.php?viewStory=924

YES VIRGINIA, DEALS STILL HAPPEN-THE JULIE MORIVA STORY
http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=2&Number=792519



These JPF threads might have some useful info too:

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/867359/page/5/fpart/1

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=2&Number=877787

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=7&Number=821137

Think about it.

Let's say I live in Nashville and I know some people in the biz who, if they find a good song, can get it heard by others who can make the decisions that bring that product to market. We've developed a relationship over time and they know I write songs. I have a new song. Since I know them I can get them to hear my song.

You don't live in Nashville. You don't know these people. They're not the only people who can get a song to market, but you don't know those other people either. Some 45,000 other 'song writers' are trying to find out who these people are and figure out how to get them to read their lyric, and, if they have audio, listen to the music. They can't tell your email, letter, or phone call about your 'great' song from the other 44,999 'song writers' who email, write, and call about their 'great' song. They may take a chance on some of them, 'soliciting' your submission, but the odds of yours being one of the ones they blindly pick just on the chance it may be a good one, are remote.

But they've heard me sing and the songs I write, and they know that I wouldn't be wasting their time if my new song wasn't in the ballpark.

Also, they know they can ask me for co-writing credit, getting themselves a piece of the songwriting royalties, or a nice piece of the publishing royalties, so they're more inclined to go with my song, even if they DO hear yours. Now, if yours is truly good, and you're willing to let them or the artist change one word and get co-writing credit, maybe they'd go with yours, IF they heard it.

Even if yours IS good, they might figure they want to tie it up by getting you to sign a publishing deal for a few years and keep you from offering it to anyone else, so it can't compete with ours for a while.

Between not being able to produce high-quality, broadcast-ready recordings to submit, not knowing who to submit to, not knowing how to get permission to submit (solicited), and being in competition with other product they've been trying to get to market for years, you're locked out. That may be the case even if you DO live in Nashtown. You're the competition.

Despite all that, sometimes an outsider does get in. I remember a couple years ago seeing some young girl on TV saying how amazing it was that "...two weeks ago I was just a girl sitting in Kansas, and now my song's a hit..."

And, I believe the music industry needs some new 'blood'. Pop musician David Bowie has a song on his "Hunky Dory" album (I found in in 1973) titled "Song For Bob Dylan" that calls for Dylan to take a look in his old scrapbook and give us something new. He sings, disdainfully of the product he's hearing at the time, "Here she comes! Here she comes! Here she comes again! The same old painted lady, From the mind of the superbrain."

It rang a bell with me, as I was feeling that same-old same-old in the music biz, in several genres.

There's a path in though. Find it. Keep trying if you believe in your product and are willing to do the work. There's no fast-magic, no easy way. Study the biz, the how-to's. And endeavor to persevere. Where there's a will, there's a lawyer. I mean 'a way'! Where there's a will there's a way.

Hey Gary...

That is most likely the best dissertation on what the honest truth is if your seriously writing for a cut...face to face trust is the key..

Nicely done...

Larry

Gary, I got a kick out of your story about Bowie's song mocking Dylan. I'd never heard of that. Kind of like a guy in a rowboat throwing snowballs at a Battleship.

I've heard Throckmorton had given up and left town when his songs finally started getting recorded.

Faith McKenna (I think that's her name) got some cuts with Faith Hill while living outside Nashville.

There's a guy here in my town who has had cuts with Travis Tritt, Kenny Chesney, and Tim McGraw. They were all album cuts and came through his association with a well known writer.

Years ago a guy named John Volinkaty got his song Satin Sheets recorded while living in Minnesota. It was a huge massive career song for Jeannie Pruitt. He moved to Nashville, stayed a few years, never had another hit and I don't think ever got another cut, and left.

To the list offered by Ande, I'd add Kostas. He was living out west when he started having hits I think. And I'd take Diane Warren and Kara Diguardi off the list. They were already pop powerhouses when they started getting Nashville cuts.

Musical success in Nashville is a conundrum containing a riddle wrapped in a puzzle tangled up in an enigma. It is an amazing thing how it all happens. I believe there are people in this group who can write songs as good as what gets cut but they never get there. I knew a lot of folks in Nashville who seemed to be able to write great commercial stuff but never got there. Then there are some who, like Bob Regan sang in "Hard Row To Hoe," just sit there in a room looking pretty and wind up winning awards for their hits. Still others get there and never move forward and others who get there and take off like rockets. Then there are those who are as talented as can be and are as hot as firecrackers and then are gone, i.e. the Dixie Chicks.

I will say this though, it's nice to chase your dream, especially if it comes true. And it hurts when it doesn't.

Regan song: Hard Row To Hoe http://www.myspace.com/bobreganmusic/music/songs/hard-row-to-hoe-29045447

Dan, I don't think he's mocking Dylan. I took it that he was saying music at the time Bowie wrote this was boring ('same old') and overrated ('from the brow of the super-brain'). And, that Dylan probably had better songs in his scrapbook than the industry was putting out at the time.

Here's the lyric from www.Chordie.com I'm not sure it's fully accurate. The melody and arrangement are good too. The songwriting on "Hunky Dory" is consistently good, by the way.

Correction; here's the lyric from YouTube.

Song For Bob Dylan
David Bowie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPxnCNRm_nY

Ah, hear this Robert Zimmerman
I wrote a song for you
‘bout a strange young man called Dylan
With a voice like sand and glue
Some words of truthful vengeance
That could pin us to the floor
Brought a few more people on
and put the fear in a whole lot more

Ah, Here she comes
Here she comes
Here she comes again
The same old painted lady
From the brow of the super-brain
She'll scratch this world to pieces
As she comes on like a friend
A couple of songs
From your old scrapbook
Could send her home again

You gave your heart to every bedsit room
At least a picture on the wall
And you sat behind a million pair of eyes
And told them how they saw
Then we lost your train of thought
Your paintings are all your own
While troubles are rising
We'd rather be scared
Together than alone

Ah, Here she comes
Here she comes
Here she comes again
The same old painted lady
From the brow of the super-brain
She'll scratch this world to pieces
As she comes on like a friend
But a couple of songs
From your old scrapbook
Could send her home again

(Instrumental Interlude)

Now hear this Robert Zimmerman
Though I don't suppose we'll meet
Ask your good friend Dylan
If he'd gaze a while down the old street
Tell him we've lost his poems
So they're writing on the walls
Give us back our unity
Give us back our family
You're every nation's refugee
Don't leave us with our sanity

Ah, Here she comes
Here she comes
Here she comes again
The same old painted lady
From the brow of the super-brain
She'll scratch this world to pieces
As she comes on like a friend
But a couple of songs
From your old scrapbook
Could send her home again

A couple of songs
From your old scrapbook
Could send her home again
Oh, here she comes, here she comes
Here she comes

(Coda)

You didn't say what your goals are. Are you looking to be a hit songwriter, a studio cat or to build a career as an artist or a producer, or a combination of some.

I would assume there's a difference, depending on your aspirations..

Perhaps if you re-phrased the question to, people outside of Nashville writing the "right" songs vs. people in Nashville writing the "right" songs. In truth, alot of people not in Nashville are unaware of what it takes to write those songs, not to mention lack the experience doing so. Not necessarily inexperience in writing, just the lack of writing what needs to be written, creatively of course. Pretty sure if you were an out of towner and you sent something to the right people that was so good that it was ridiculous, then the chances would be equal. There's no discrimination of "in town" and "out of town" as some may believe. Only songs that can get on albums and the radio vs songs that can't. There is no barrier. "Great song = Lots Of Money" - Not Great Song = Not So Much", if you think like the business people do. It doesn't matter where it comes from. As an "in towner" I can answer the original question in saying that almost every song I have heard from out of town doesn't cut it. So yes, that would make the chances much less then...wouldn't it. The reason most songs are from "In towners"? Better songs