JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum "Nashville style and process" is everywhere.

Since a lot of people on pages like these and others tend to challenge the processes of co-writing, having certain disciplines, time frames, structure and adhering to certain formulas, and view it as sacrilidge, and often tie it to the all hated "Nashville forumula process", I was interested when someone posted this on my other forum.

It is from the UK, and talks about some of the processes their hit writers employ which to be honest, sound very familiar to me.

As I always say, different people have different habits, different approaches that work. In my experience, these particular types of formulas, have worked throughout history more times than not among professional songwriters.

Just thought it was interesting. My thanks to Yanncarest, from France, for letting me see it. Hope it helps some of you.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/may/17/professional-songwriters-ivor-novello

MAB

Marc, The Nashville co-writing system is a proven business and social model for creating commercial country songs. Lots of similarities to the Brill Building model. Even John Prine took it up after his early success as a solo writer. And it obviously works for the commercial country music industry. There's never a shortage of product.

But the solo songwriter, the lone wolf who doesn't fit in and goes his own stubborn way is an equally legitimate way of coming up with good, albeit less commercial, songs.

Your advice that aspiring country songwriters follow the tried and true Nashville model is sound advice for those aiming at commercial success.

Incidentally, the song sited in the link you posted,'Empire State of Mind,' lists SEVEN co-songwriters.

Dan,

As it has grown to be harder and harder to get anything out, more co-writers are added as more entities are involved. Could be looked at the same as in the 70's when entire bands were involved in the writing on songs. Groups like Deep Purple and others routinely featured every member of the band as co-writers.

Same thing now. Yes it did happen in the Brill building, Broadway, Motown and just about every commercial entity in history. And almost every successful songwriter, particularly those like the Carol King's of the world, learned their craft there.

As I have said a million times, mine has absolutley no particular "commerical market." I am talking about learning the craft, which is done by learning from other people. Here it just speeds up the process for learning. I hear way too many lone wolfs as it is. There material almost always reflects it as well. Very self centered and very myopic.

So that has never appealed much to me. But again, to each his own. This article is simply stating that it is a pretty well established formula. It is not just Nashville.

MAB

I don't see why lone writers can't write good commerical songs. Sometimes songs written by committee sound that way,put together like a jigsaw puzzel.

Hey MAB and all,

let's first give back to Caesar ...
- it was Steve Cooke (from JPF) who first let me know about this article
- and MAB, my true name is Yann CAUSERET (not from Bucarest, LOL)!

But yes, there must be a reason why professionals (all around the world and in any style) work in the same way. Outsiders can succeed of course, but what's their ratio of success compared to those who play by the rules? I understand that being an artist means keepin a decent level of 'rebel yelling', but even bandidos like us all should be careful about sometimes just accepting what is acceptable. Just my opinion anyway.

hope you have a great day,
Yann

Everette,

Look at it like this. Imagine you are an artist. You have just gone through a break up of the love of your life. You sit with a more experienced songwriter who helps you put all your emotions EXACTLY into the words that you want to say. You were so close to it, you couldn't really do it yourself and the experienced writer has had several top songs recorded.

Now who's songs do you record? The ones that talk about a break up but you have NO connection to, or one that was written EXACTLY for YOU about YOU and encapuslated YOU? There is no choice.

It is not that solo writers can't write good songs. Some times they can. But in my experience, with around 11,000 songwriters over an 11 year career teaching and around 15 before that, the solo writers almost never match up to people who work with professional writers. And the "other side of the desk" there are almost NO solo writers in Nashville. Even the ones who write solo sometimes most of the time write with other writers for the social aspect. It is much more productive, and to be honest, the songs come out better.

Solo writers have no sense of urgency. They have no sense of discipline. They tend to let things simmer, sometimes for years. The biggest complaint I hear from them is "I have hundreds of pieces of songs but never get them finished." That is because life always gets in the way. If there is no sense of need to get things finished, to be honest, they don't get finished.

I am not making a statement on every writer. I don't know every writer. I know trends. And I study history. The majority of writers, even the Bob Dylan's of the world, learned their craft being around and being influenced by many other writers. We don't learn this in a vacum.

Again, it is to each his own. But if you write a song by yourself, you look in the bathroom mirror and see who you have to help promote and get that song out there.

What is the biggest subject on these are pretty much any other songwriter related forum? "How to get songs out there? Have you ever heard of.....pitching service?" All these pages have are those kinds of question, pretty much always coming to the same conclusion. They are all basically ineffective, costing money and run into the "inside cut" which is the artist I outlined above.

It is more just the realities of life doing this business. There are no "lone wolf careers". None. They all have to have people to help them get out there. From my point of view in the world I live in , it is the only way.

MAB

Thanks Yann, for the article. I meant to thank you on the other forum. Sorry about the name thing. I am pretty bad about that.
Very good article.

MAB

I will say this. Over the past fifteen or so years in Nashville there was one guy who was a solo writer who really got some hit cuts. He wrote some pretty amazing hits, "The Little Girl" for country act John Micheal Montgomery. He was a singer and artist, contributing to movie soundtracks etc. He was also one of the most unpleasant people I have ever met. I think he didn't co-write that much becauase a lot of people quite frankly couldn't stand him.

Over the past five years, his cuts started drying up. He actually died about two months ago.

That might have been the last solo writer in Nashville. I don't think you will see that anymore.

MAB

Very interesting MAB.
I'd make a couple of points--Yeah the lone wolf could write a "commercial" song,if they are enough into the business to know what "Commercial" IS at the moment and what's "Coming up" to be commercial. And if they do happen to write one, what do they DO with it? Connections are the name of the game as I understand it.

The song in question being turned down cold by one publisher--is as I understand it, very common--placing and timing are at least as important as the song I think.
Course if you're just writing for your own satisfaction or for your own album, you don't have to pay any attention to anyone :)---Course it helps if you can SELL a few

But Mab will come along when he has time and give y'all the low down
Carry on
Wy

Of course lone writers can write great songs -- even great commercial ones. But since there are untold thousands upon thousands upon thousands of new songs being written every year, how do you get your songs heard? OK, you are not! You either have to be an artist or find an artist to perform your song. The only artists you can get near are your local unsigned ones.

I know many people argue against the "committee" style of co-writing, but it is really not like that. In my limited experience and from what I have witnessed over at MAB's songramp thread, co-writing is done a lot of time between friends who have supported each other, seen each other at numerous writer's nights, laughed and joked until all hours of the morning. So these folks see co-writing as a joyous adventure to be savoured and never taken for granted.

I am sure there are writing sessions where folks meet for the very first time -- but the feeling of let's be friends first seems to be evident in the Nashville writers that I have met.

I don't do nearly the face to face or live co-writing that I should -- but co-writing will always get you a song that is DIFFERENT than what you can do own your own. Whether that song is "better" or not is an artistic opinion.

Kevin

P.S. Never underestimate the power of group dynamics. Writing a song in a team format is almost like jamming with musicians. You have to have some structure, but each person should be able to get heard -- and the sum of the parts can sometimes be pretty dang spectacular.

What you say is no doubt true, but not every songwriter can up root and move to Nashville, especially if you are not an American citizen. In small towns there may not be anyone to write with. I think because I write alone, I have to look to myself to work harder and dig deeper to perfect the song. I know the saying around here is two heads are better than one, even if one is a head of cabbage.LOL But I seriously question that saying when it comes to songwriting.

One thing that MAB preaches over and over again is that the "song" is only 15% of the battle. There are tons of good songs out there (and a lot of great ones, too). But 85% of the activity is networking, business requirements, current conditions and a lot of other things that might be beyond your control. If you are not networking, co-writing, meeting up and coming artists then your chances are just going down, down, down. Yes, you can get lucky -- but I think you have to have some kind of presence to win.

Kevin

Everett (sorry about the ending "E" thing earlier. There is an "E" on the end of my name.)

One of the things I have to do in all of this is show you some other things and ways to look at this through example. I will give you one that you should understand.

One of my top moving clients is a over 40 woman living in the frozen wastelands of Manitoba, Canada. Five years ago she nearly died due to a progressive neuromuscular condition that could not be treated by the Canadian health care system. She had to go to Minnesota's Mayo Clinic to be treated.

Deciding that she did not want to die before doing something creative (she is a wife and mother, but had music in her soul with no outlet, she was introduced to a local singer through a mutual friend.

She began to work with this guy, who was a 21 year old full of piss and vinegar singer. She helped him with styling, clothes, and gave him support and help with his music. She came to clubs and tried to do the best at giving him some direction. not knowing that much, she turned to the web for information .That led her to the Manitoba Country music Association, a kind of half way defunct organization in her general area. That led her to NSAI, or Nashville Songwriter's Association, and the fall event we call "SONGPOSIUM." Which are a week of classes in September that feature many teachers, subjects, publishers, management, etc. She took several, finally on her last day, took my class.

She stood out as a very attentive sweet girl almost like a lost lamb. Afterward she continued asking questions so I took her with me and we attended a record company showcase. AFter that we spent some time and I introduced her to a few friends.

From there we corresponded online and I offered suggestions about how to help her singer, including getting rid of the older band he played with and getting newer younger people and writing material. A few months after that she made the first of her five trips to Nashville. Each one lasting about three days and combineing writing, networking, recording, and just learning.

The singer, who was also a vast egotist, soon quit completely going back to his old ways. But the band they put together became her vehicle. This put her in the orbit of a number of local artists and writers. A few months after that she was interacting with 20 bands, duos, trios, singles. All were doing songs of hers and mine. Since I wrote most of hers too, it was basically showcasing my songs with their artistisc abilities.

Fast forward two years and she has written around 50 songs. She has multiple artists going all the time. She is putting on very successful writer/artist showcases, and bringing an entire wave of original music to that area .She is being sought out by people all over, made a board member of the Manitoba Country Music Association, has had me up there to write with 37 people in 12 days, two shows, and a television show.

In July 22 of those artists and writers are coming for one of my four day group tours, where they will do two shows, attend several events, write songs with local Nashville artists, have a full recording session and a special guitar party in their honor. They will go back with new songs, a new understanding and appreciation of the industry and a new focus.

Last week she was approached by one of the top Canadian managers/producers to intern with his organization and provide a creative conduit between Nashville and there.

She does not live in Nashville.

I also work with Julie Moriva, a 50 plus year old non-singer, non-performer from Green Bay Wisconsin. Her networking and contacts led her to meet Megan Linsey, one half of the newest country duo Steel Magnolia. Julie's relationship and writing skills brought her into the publishing company owned by Taylor Swift. Julie does not live in NAshville. She commutes once a month.

Frankie Ballard was a 25 year old blues guitar player, playing clubs in Kalamazoo and Grand Rapids Michigan. Six months after working with me once a month, he signed a major publishing deal. Two months after that he signed a major record deal. He is now touring with Taylor Swift and was voted one of the top 50 sexiest men in country music by People Magazine.

He did not move to Nashville until he had all the deals put together and was ready to record his first record.

Everett, it is not where you are located. it is the activity and the methods you use where you are. In every place I have ever been there are open mics, writers shows, songwriter groups, creative writing courses in college. These always lead to ARTISTS, which are the secret to doing anything in the business.

The industry is interested in artists. Those that have fan bases, that are out doing things, that are performing in their local areas and regions. They are interested in songs from those artists and the writers who work with them have a better shot than just the random throwing something at a wall.

This doesn't guarantee anything. Having written 15 songs with Frankie, being a very good friend and mentor, doesn't get me any songs on his record or in his set. This past weekend in Detroit Michigan, I saw him perform in front of around 35,000 people and he did a great show. I didn't have any songs in it. He plays a LOT of guitar solos which cut down how many songs he plays, and he is doing other things. I just got him to the party. That is what I was paid to do.

But Frankie has directly led me to numerous other artists in that area, two of which are on the verge of getting major record deals. My songs are always in the mix.

This is how it is done Everett and has been for quite some time. That is what the cowriting thing is about. Sharing information and getting places you can't get yourself. Being a part of a team.

As far as the two heads might not be better than one, I don't think that is always true. I know it is always true. I have seen in on too many levels. The "solo" lone wolf throughout history is always the one that is the abberation, not the other way around. They make for good assasins. Not so much in successful songwriting. No man or woman is an island.

And the sharing of music is the ultimate social activity. If you are not part of the social team you are missing the boat and do things like go to radio stations who wouldn't play your song if it came attached with a ten thousand Looney Note.

You can be as isolated as you want to be. But teamwork is really the only way I have ever known anything to work.

You can take that or leave it. But it doesn't change the facts.

MAB

Marc, you're absolutely right. Yes, there might be, now and then, one or two writers who do it alone, but they are so few that they are the exception that proves the rule. That shouldn't stop folks from writing alone, just from false expectations that they can do that unless they are so extremely gifted that everybody...everybody...tells them so.

I have one other question for you: do you use voice recognition software when you write these, or do you do exercises for carpal tunnel?

Mike,

Like everything I talk about, I just do it a lot. I actually do have some carpal tunnel when I play guitar but not much from typing.

I grew up in "Band ara" of the 70's and 80's. You would have band rehersals, someone would come in with a groove, guitar lick, drum fills, keyboard passage, and everyone would develop and write it. Singer usually wrote the lyrics. Everyone I knew of in that era, from the Beatles, Stones, on into the later era, Journey, Styxx, etc. all had that same focus.

As I branched out and learned more about the craft of writing, I would study the past. How Broadway plays were written, how the Tin Pan Alley days. Even studying the great works of the past, there were no single writers names in much of anything. Even the people who got known for being great solo writers went through phases where the co-wrote a lot. Carol King and Mike Stoller, James Taylor learning from Paul McCartney. Paul Simon and Art Garfunkle. it was always multiple people involved.

As I moved to Nashville I never even much realized about writers verses artists. They were simply always interetwined. You always wrote with other people. Didn't mean you didn't write alone, in a lot of songs, one writer or the other will provide a majority of the song, there is very little 50/50 writing.

It wasn't until I started getting on forums like this that I even realized that a lot of people didn't think that way. Sure there were the Dylan's and Springsteen's but they were so few and far between as to not even be a factor. And I would deal with hundreds and thousands of people who came to Nashville with the whole "I do everything myself" attitude. Those are the ones nobody wanted to work with and as you listened to more and more music from those people, you felt like saying "Man, you should have gotten out of the house more..."

So it is an odd argument and the only place I have seen it work is in theory. It is like baseing your life, your families future, your own lively hood around winning a lottery. Could it happen? Sure. Will it? Very doubtful.

When I hear the whole lone wolf approach I just can't see how that works in practical application. It just doesn't work in real life. You have to make people want to be a part of your world. Far too many people will try to approach publishers, and the publishers of course, want to have nothing to do with them. Why? Because if other people don't want to work with you, why should I?

I guess it is not the perfect way and doesn't work for everyone. But it is the majority of anything in the history of music. I know not everyone would want that. But if you do any study of real life, you find out that you can't change the facts.

MAB

Humm,
I'm not sure I ever read on these boards where anyone was putting down co-writing. If I were in Nashville where I could hook up with some writer's I'm sure I could write a lot of good songs. However, most writer's are not in Nashville and probably have no one to write with so they write Solo. AND, moving to Nashville just to write with somebody isn't practical without some visable means of support, such as a job. You've said a time or two Marc, most writer's have other things going, such as a day job.

Certainly in the past I wish I had someone to write with. But finding that someone wasn't possible. However I have managed to put together a pretty good Catalog by myself. And I have had requests for more songs a time or two.

And inspecting a couple of Major Star's CD'S I have there are some songs that only list one writer.

And, I don't understand the Emotional Statement if you don't write with a Publisher for instance they don't want to have anything with you. It isn't a one way street. If A Publisher signs one of your songs and it gets cut, they get 50 percent of the royalities and ownership of the song for 40 years.

I think if you go by the odds, Marc is betting on a winner. It's a pretty safe bet to say 99% don't make it, cause they don't. That's the nature of the music business, lone writer or not.

According to NSAI chair Ralph Murphy, publishers are looking for writers who's able to write alone, though. Not because they want them to keep on doing that, but because they need to know if a writer can bring something to the table.

So, the 10 year hiatus you need to go through to get a cut in Nashville, is 10 years of learning the craft and the things that has been proven to work. Pretty much like any other education. That's when you are able to go with the pro's and deliver the top notch work on 2x2 hr co-writing sessions. I tried it some time ago, and found that I was not ready. I could not deliver the goods on time, meaning contribute with great stuff in a that short amount of time. I was not secure enough in my style and craft to perform well. But, I've learned a lot from that experience, it really has boosted my own craft and writing.

That's what the comments for the referenced article don't get. Sure there are formulas, and sure some writers work really fast, but that is due to their 10 years learning the craft. An electrician, a mechanic, a lawyer and any other trained professional, are able to work fast. Because they know what they are doing, and how to do it. As a consequence they are confident performing in the situations they participate in. It's about knowing the expectations, being able to fulfill them, on time, bring something to the table, professionally, and keep on keeping on

Another important thing is the quote from the article; "The very idea of a professional songwriter gets in the way of the singer.". This is why songwriters don't try to boost their profiles too much. It's part of the job description to respectfully stay in the background, and let "the moneymaker", the performer, do their job, for the good of all in the food chain.

It's all about understanding, not about getting

Ray and Magne,

Good comments and here is how I would answer them. First of all no one has my respect more than Ralph Murphy. More than one time I have sat in his office wanting to quit and he say "HUN, you just have to keep doing what you do.." About half of the things I talk about here come from personal conversations with ol' Ralphie boy.

He is right that publishers do like people that write on their own but they also are looking for people who get along with others because it is a team work game whether they like it or not. And you don't have them pitching and promoting anyone by themselves. I have been here 23 years and have never ever seen that. The frist thing they do is put you together with everyone they can hoping lightning will strike.

And you can even talk to people who knew the king of all Nashville songwriter Hank Williams Sr. and they will be the first to say that Fred Foster was in reality probably a cowriter on most of his stuff. It was just done differently in those days with the songwriter/publisher relationship.

Ray part of my conversation direction here has come over the past few years with some hit writers, many of whom I know and have even written with, who in articles and conversations bemoan the fact that you "have to write with artists or other writers to get a cut. " And how important it is to write alone and not be influenced by anyone else or conform to whatever." And the irony is that every single one of them had their careers built through co-writing and most of the hits they had all came through writing with artists. So a bit hypocrosy goes a long way.

I started this thread simply because there always seems to be a converesation on art verses commerce, and some times people are somewhat dissmissive of those of us who in their opinion "are selling out." There are those across the country and in the world who want to denigrate anything that has Nashville mentioned into it. When it comes to songwriting now, most roads lead here and a lot of resentment comes from that.

As everything that I do here or anything, it is my responsibility to all of you to talk the truth as I see it and am surrounded by. I do this to provide an "other side of the desk" perspective. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't. I just offer what I can.

What I physically deal with are a lot of people who come to this town, employ me and are hopelessly misdirected. They have gotten improper or outdated information from every angle and I do my best to correct what I can and show by example what I am talking about.

On forums like these and more, one of the things that manifests itself is what we have talked about on other threads in that certain people who come off with these attitudes that we all see and frankly poison a lot of the dialogue.A lot of that comes through misinformation and a lot of frustration.

When I read of all your individual efforts, journey's and dissapointments, I empathize with all of you. I have been there and still am in many ways. But I also am here to let you know that "Yeah, a lot of that stuff sucks, but nothing really is that new and despite how bad some of it is, there really is some good stuff out there too. There are things we can all do to help ourselves and each other and it doesn't always require moving somewhere else, sacrificing our lives or who we are. There are things we can enjoy and be a part of.

Being here is one of those things. I enjoy it and hope I add something to the dialogue.

MAB

Good article! I guess it reminds me of that classic show tune, and no doubt cliche at this stage, so once again humour me, 'There's No Business Like Show Business'. Of course show is mentioned once, and business is mentioned twice.

Gee,
I forgot about Ralph Murphy. Isn't he the one that says Publisher's look for writers that can write on their own. Probably about 90 percent of all songs have more than one writer. And for myself coming up with those good ideas isn't easy.

Ray,

That one always makes me laugh too. The only one I like better is the one that older writers talking about how important it is to be a solo writer and how humilitating it is to have to write with an artist to get a cut today. Coming from the guys who have a career based on co-writing and being in the career of an artist early in their career.

I like that one too.

MAB

Wow, I didn't know Harley had died. He always looked sort of unhealthy to me. I remember one of his songs (not a hit) talked about the Beatles in the seventies. I thought that was funny because they were actually broken up by time 1970 rolled around.

He was a good writer though. I loved "The Baby" by Blake Shelton. The first time I heard it I was headed to the Frank Brown Festival.

You gotta admit though, whether his personality had anything to do with the hits drying up we'll never know. He had a good run, better than most. Most runs don't consistently last as long as his.

I agree with you about him being perhaps the only solo writer in the last decade or so EXCEPT for Scooter Crusoe. His solo output of hits wasn't a lot though. It was more than mine of course. Alan Jackson's written a lot of solo hits LOL but he's a dynamically efficient self contained songwriting singing machine.

Sausage,

Again, someone who is an artist, particularly a very successful one, is a different dynamic. But Even Allen, started out cowriting and recording other people's songs. In the past five years there has been virtually no solo writes that I can remember.

MAB

Marc/Yann, It’s a good article and thanks for posting. One aspect that doesn’t change is things like "Some record companies will give you a list of five songs and say, 'We want something like this.'" - I suppose an arty songwriter might bulk at that but a songwriting consortium would more than likely relish it.

Nigel,

It comes in four stages. WE can use the name Garth Brooks but yoa can substitute any artist or song name:

Who is Garth Brooks?
Get me someone like Garth Brooks.
Get me the next Garth Brooks.
Who is Garth Brooks?

It is always very cyclical and always very follow the leader. Nobody knows what is going to hit. Record companies, publishers, writers, artists, all of us are throwing things out there all the time. Very little sticks with the public and all of the steps that have to be gone through to make something work.

When something hits, all those entities have dozens of similar things that are all alike. They don't write, produce or direct anything toward that, they are already there.

Keith Urban comes out, nice looking blonde haired, blue eyed guitar player, let's throw out Dierk's Bently, Luke Bryan, Jake Owen, Rodney Atkins... Hot Babe Carrie Underwood comes out, let's go with Miranda Lambert, Julianne Hough. Need a trio because the Dixie Chicks puked out? Sugarland. Then they don't need a trio, one quits, now they are the DUO. Brooks and Dunn quits, boom Sugarland steps in there. Male female duos work, Steel Magnolia, Thompson Square....

It is types of artists, types of songs, styles, image, all of the things come into play. But for everyone you see there are hundreds that are out there too but don't get the attention or catch on with the public.

That's close to what it really is. It's not so much "Go write one of those." It's more like "What do you have like....?"

MAB

i'm curious to hear anyones opinion on bob dylan. i may be wrong but he seem to personify the "lone" artist and it can't be denied that he thru his quirky and oft times weird lyrics opened a completely different door that influenced alot of peoples music and still does. i'll wager the music bizz people would like to get their hands on another golden goose like bob dylan. what do you think?

dmk

Bob Dylan is indeed a lone writer. But he is an artist and performer. He didn't pitch songs or make demos, he waded right into the New York City folk scene and played all the clubs where he caught the attention of manager John Hammond of CBS records, who, if I recall right, paired him with Albert Grossman, ex-owner of Chicago's jazz and later folk club, the Gate of Horn.

Mr. Grossman was already the manager for my late friend Bob Gibson, who was one of the biggest folk stars at that time. Grossman had this idea that Gibson should start a trio with another fellow and a girl, first he paired him with Hamilton Camp, which resulted in the great live album, Gibson and Camp at the Gate of Horn. Gibson didn't want to add someone else, so Grossman found Peter, Paul and Mary.

The point is, the folk scene has always been personality and image driven, rather than song driven. Some of the songs were old traditional tunes that might have been "tweaked" by the singers so they could make more money from the mechanicals. It was the legacy of Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger that got the ball rolling for songwriters, but it was an image of the lone troubador that kept most of it as solo writing. Most of those songs were faux "folk" songs or what I call "folklike" songs. Trying to sound like they jumped off the pages of the Lomax book, but more often sounding like something from a Broadway musical (Paint Your Wagon, Finian's Rainbow, or more like "A Mighty Wind" LOL).

Still, the whole thing was, and is, serious business. It's more "indie" now since the sales numbers dropped after the Beatles, but still business, replete with its own convention, the Folk Alliance. So, just like gangsta rap doesn't have singers, or bluegrass doesn't have drums, "Folk" often has solo writers, but by and large, all the other music biz quirks apply. It still boils down to personal relationships, building a fan base, and working like crazy.

Dylan was one of those quirky people that crossed over to mainstream success but I tend to think that would not work at the same level today. There are still those kinds of "folk poets" but they don't really cross over because there is much more competition for our attention in this day and age. We don't go as deep in lyrics or thought process for music as we once did.

There are many more options and the nature of the disposable nature of society doesn't lend itself to it. Record companies and the general public are not set up for those types of careers anymore. The same as we are not set up for old world's craftsman (And the prices they would cost) horse and buggy's or anything else from earlier century's or times.

But if anyone wants to find "similar Dylan's" you might want to check out something like "Pandora" which will give you dozens of similar offerings.

MAB

is it just a money matter that the simple guitar/piano/vocal demo is no longer acceptable or is it more a lack of talented listeners with-in the music industry. what keeps people like me and i'm sure many others on the outside looking in is a little thing called cash, the lack of it. if i could afford to i would play the game but i can't, so i can't even play the game, who cares if my song are good or not, it seems it is only about money. i am also very stupid about genre classification which is why i bowed out of taxi years ago. i could not afford to waste five bucks sending a song to the wrong listener and all the sub-genre's were to me mind boggling. the cost of pitching demo's that are professionally recorded by professional singers and musicians is out of reach for many, myself included. well, i guess that's how it is. is there an alternative answer?

dmk

dmk,

It is totally what you are trying to do. If you want to do any of this, you develop your fan base a little at a time, find a niche you are comfortable with, and go from there. But remember that you are competing with MILLIONS OF ARTISTS, BILLIONS OF SONGS, and more. WE don't just sit around listening to music anymore.

We have 24 hour a day cable television, we have movies, computer games and of course, the unending elements of the Internet. That is what you are competing with when it comes to people. Their expectations are MUCH higher now. Even artists that you might compete with, from the lowest folk artist to the major acts, are doing quality recordings. That is the cost of doing business.

There was a time, when we were content to drive those big lumbering V-8 cars on country back roads. But we could only go to certain areas. When the major interstate system came in, we were no longer content to do that. We had to have faster, more efficent transportation and more people got into the game.

Music is the same. Now most venues have some sort of Karaoke nights. Amateur? Sure. But it puts the PEOPLE in the show. That is what EVERYONE wants. The reason writing styles have changed away from the more metaphoric or allusional styles to a more reality based writing, is because people can hear it and say "That is my life." And they can get it in a very quick time frame.

That is the other thing about the Dylan form of writing loses in this day and age. Think of your own attention span. Is it getting shorter or longer? How much demand for your time in a day is there? Do you just sit around contemplating life, listening to music, looking at Album covers, or do you have to pay bills, take care of family, squeeze every minute and EVERY DOLLAR out of what you do?

This is what we all face. While I am typing this to you, I am listening to radio, reading constant emails, reviewing songs, putting finishing touches on another song that I am recording, having to get my dog from the vet for surgery and make plans to go out tonight. At the same time there are probably around one billion messages flying through space and time on the Internet.

We now have more technilogically advanced equipment on our cell phones, I-phones than most of us had in our entire houses growing up. The power of my lap top right now took dozens of buildings and hundreds of thousands of people to place 24 men on the surface of the moon from 1969 to 1971.

So everything, from our tastes, our daily concentrations, demands on our times, etc. have all changed. Our perceptions and processes have also.

Fifteen years ago, it would cost around $20,000-$50,000 to record even the most basic recording. There were albums and cassettes. Now that same thing can be done for less than $5000.
Quick turnaround CD places can spit out 100-200 Cd's in an hour or so for some artist going out on a weekend tour. Mp3's, You Tube and Facebook and social marketing can put people in the living rooms of millions of people around the world. None of this was availible even a few years ago.

Most of what I do is look at trends, an overall perspective. I study a lot of history. In order to work in today's music industry from any level you need to understand how we got here.

Your question about simple guitar, piano vocal demos can be answered very quickly. Go to any site where there are hundreds of listings of music. Any place that has amateurs in listening rooms, open mics, etc. Give yourself 30 minutes or one hour. Listen to as many verss and choruses on songs as you can in that time. Make notes about any song that impresses you. Now see how immportant the demo or presentation is after about 30 or 40 songs.

Do the same by going to multiple writer's nights or open mics. Put yourself through that night after night after night, hearing hundreds and thousands of songs and hundreds of artists. Then tell me how important writing styles, being concise in your music and a great presentation is. That will put you into the place of listeners, music industry people, and your competition. hundreds and thousand of songs and artists.

Then come back with your answer. I would be interesting to hear your conclusions.

MAB

i hear you, its a bigger ball of wax than it used to be is the real answer. thanx for the answer, i sincerely appreciate your time/input.

dmk

dmk,

I would make a few suggestions to you:

#1. Search out local songwriter's groups, writer's nights, open mics. GET OUT OF THE LIVING ROOM AND AMONG OTHER WRITERS/ARTISTS.

#2. Attend some writer's workshops.

#3. Look for local and regional artists who are performing out there.

#4. Start a focused effort to find co-writers. Not only are two heads better than one, it gives you teamwork, and someone to help you share expenses and that might be able to take songs somewhere you can't on your own.

#5.Make a trip to a music center to see what the rest of the
world is doing.

#6. Perform regularly and share your music with others in your area.

#7. Always expand your directions but refine your genre. No one can do this for you. You need to decide where you belong.

#8. Once you have defined where you are comfortable, find conferences, festivals, etc. in that genre.

#9. WRITE MORE SONGS.

#10. Repeat the process. Especially number 9.

MAB

thanx again marc.

dmk

MAB, I have to disagree with you when you say the "Dylan form of writing loses in this day and age." It only loses in the commercial music assembly line and marketplace. Dylan was unique. And if anyone comes along with the songwriting talent and skills equal to his, I suspect he'd be a success as a songwriter. But don't look for that to happen anytime soon. There aren't many Dylans, Shakespeares or Einsteins.

Dan,

You could be right. I have to totally admit, I am not a Dylan fan. The long winded "on and on" form of writing has never held any interest for me whatsoever. I believe in that old adage "Brevity is the soul of wit." In books, articles, and long form things, poetry, it works fine. As songs, they never worked for me.

I never did Dylan songs because I could never remember the words and what I did remember never made a whole lot of sense to me. Dylan and Joni Mitchell are two people I probably could have done without in the overall scheme of things. I deal with a lot of people all the time who think they are them and I don't even know that THEY wish they were THEM.

But I don't denigrate their impact on the culture, they had much. I am more interested in Dylan as the person than really his music. Very odd bird. I think he got tired of people reading things into his music he never intended. But that is the price for being a prophet to a lot of people.

So I am admittedly not the person to ask about if there could be "another Dylan." I was not that enamored with the first one.

MAB

Well Dan,
If you haven't read War and Peace yet you may want to find a copy, (Two Books) and read it. Then you will know what long winded is.

MAB, Dylan is an odd bird indeed. He wanted fame and fortune and as soon as he got the fame, he regreted it and became a public recluse. He's always had a huge grievance against the media and to a somewhat lesser extent, his fans. I went to a concert of his in Kalamazoo. He never said a word to the audience. I wasn't close enough to the stage to see if he even nodded in acknowledgment.

But you are right. Brevity wasn't Dylan's long suit.

Dan,

A lot of my friends have had the same experience. Last year he played a show in Gulf Shores Alabama and the opening act was Willie Nelson. I had a lot of friends that went to the show. (I was performing in a club at the same time) then they all came back very early. They said Willie was good but Dylan was just plain weird.

He came out and did some very strange songs, and then stopped in the middle, just kind of talking about things nobody really understood. About half the audience ended up leaving. A lot of people wanted their money back.

I salute him for being an Icon and respect his accomplishments. just that kind of behavior and other things he has done over the years don't really endear me to him. But hey, he doesn;'t care very much for my music either so I guess we are even.

MAB

Ray, I got a copy of "War and Peace" as a gift from a friend. Haven't yet figured out if she was trying to tell me something ot not. Anyway, I got as far as page 124 before I ran out of patience and put the book down. That was 7 years ago. Haven't picked it up since.