JPF Home Page Forums Musician Gear and Techniques Recording Studio and Gear Forum Inro to Mixing/Mastering?

Hello,

I just did my rpm challenge february CD and I got a peer to peer review that was highly complimentary in a lot of areas. Since I don't need help there (ha, ha) -- I thought I would just post the parts where I needed help. So even though he said a lot of nice things, he hammered me on the mixing and mastering (I didn't do any mastering!). I am not sure I really have the "ear" for that side of the music making -- but I guess I can at least get better. Is there one book or internet series that you would recommend that I take a look at?

Kevin - I can't believe that you have the ability to write, sing and play but don't have the ear for mixing and mastering. Its all in learning and developing the skills.

Having said that, I second this - I suck at mixing/mastering.

To everyone else - what should we be listening for and are there any rules/guidelines we can learn and use? How do we get our work to sound like the pros (presumably using only 5 minutes a day and for 3 easy payments of $19.95)?!

I think his advice is pretty straightforward, Kevin, so start just by doing what he suggests.

Second, watch the mixing vid's part 101-2-3 here http://www.ustream.tv/user/TAXI_Music/videos

Second and a half, don't worry about mastering, just put a limiter on the master bus.

Third, well.. there are books, but do you really read?

Kevin,

This one will keep you busy for a while - http://www.tweakheadz.com/guide.htm.

I think your reviewer is correct WRT panning. Lead vocal, bass and drums are usually centered. Harmony vox somewhat off to the sides. I try to put other instruments in different places in the stereo field.

I would be interest in what you think of the panning in this song which I have been mixing today.....not quite finished. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=552255&songID=10321058

Well,
If all else fails just dump it all in a cement mixer and mix until it is blended and dump it out.

Did you hear the one about the lady that was having some concrete work done? The Carpenter told the lady he needed about 4 yards to do the job. He would be back later.

SO, the lady called the concrete people and ordered 4 yards of concrete. The driver asked the lady where she wanted it.

She said, just dump it over there, the carpenter will know what to do with it.

I have never been a fan of panning especially extreme where one instrument or vocal is very one sided in the mix. I agree that bass and vocals should be centered in the mix and a little panning of other instruments especially drums can add extra dimension but do not fall into the trap of panning for panning sake.
Re mastering......this is a mixture of good ears and good gizmos. Some folk have the ears but not the gizmos. Some have the gizmos but not the ears and some have ears and gizmos but do not know how to work the gizmos. I suspect that Kevin does not have the proper gizmos or knows how to work the gizmos properly.....cause he certainly has the ears.
Here are a couple of links to articles on mastering for beginners

http://tarekith.com/assets/mastering.html

http://www.tomrudolph.com/presentations/Mastering%20for%20Beginners.pdf

http://www.pcmus.com/AudioTips.htm

It is interesting on the panning issue, because I work hard to move things around in the stereo field, but I think here is what happened on one song in particular.

I normally to just add depth to the vocal line:
a) keep the lead vox line dry, centered or just at -5, +5 (left/right). I then
b) copy that track, add reverb, chorus and maybe one more thing, if interesting,
c) pan it to 50-60,
d) offset it 25ms and
e) turn the volume way, way down.

On one song, I seemed to have the lead vox line at -15 and the doubled line at -70 (a little left heavy). On this same song, the BIAB drummer (centered) has a strong cymbal crash going on in the right speaker (I have no control over the individual drum parts) so this song had an appearance of poor instrument spacing -- but it really didn't (OK, so maybe it did -- ha, ha). So, on this tune I am pulling in the vox depth track, accenting the couple instruments on the left in order to overcome that cymbal crash.

I am going to re-think where I put that doubled vocal line. The panning has worked OK in the past, but it has turned into a "knee-jerk" reaction -- which is not a good thing. So the moral to the story here might be -- double check your normal modus operandi to make sure it fits in EVERY situation.

OK that was song #1, now I have got to go find out what was wrong with a couple of others (he did say some of the mixes were good and the panning properly done).

Colin: I will listen to your mix later today and get back to you

To the others: I'll take a look at those links -- I think I have all the gizmos I need (except for monitors and/or good headphones) -- just need to learn how to use them.

Big Jim: One of my favorite bands, Counting Crows, tend to pan those electric guitars hard sometimes.

Kevin

If you are going to take this approach, I think you have to add your effects to the new track, then duplicate it and pan the two effects tracks equally on opposite sides. Otherwise, the vocal will not be perceived as centered.

It would seem that way, but most of the time the low volume of the doubled track just gives it a little depth and only seems to shift it slightly -- but nonetheless, I am changing my approach here and pulling that doubled vocal line in. I don't like all song vocals to be 0 panned. Some can be 0, but some can be 5-10 either way. Adds variety when listening in a row -- but should be OK as a "single" play, too.

Kevin

The secret to mixing is pretty simple. Imagine a band on stage, pan the instruments out across the left/right spectrum, and use reverb and volume to place them back and up front. Make it sound natural, that'll give you the best response for your music any time..

Actually, I don't think I am that bad off mixing-wise -- I usually do a pretty good job finding a little spot for everyone. I had about given up on the RPM CD -- but then I recorded my vocals and guitars for nine songs in the last 2 1/2 days -- I think THAT was the major problem. But, I am glad I screwed up, I am learning some stuff I have needed to know for awhile!

Wow tons of good advice here -

Kevin - I've heard of the same technique being used with a pan both ways. Send one low lead vocal with Reveb and delay one side and one with Chorus and delay the other way. Keeps the vocal centered but adds some color. I've always sucked at it. My vocals always sound like they were recorded in a giant Cathedral.

I spent some time running a freq and L-R analyzer on individual tracks and it sures seems like the stereo drum track from BIAB was pretty left heavy (even though I have it panned at zero). I should have noticed that from the wave form, but it is easy to miss things. So I panned it 20 to the right, bump the volume a couple of db to overcome the slight reduction in volume and they seem centered now. I had been chasing the other instruments trying to get a nice looking wave form in the PAZ -- but it was the drums.

John: I might give that a try.

Kevin

Posted the tune in question (ok, one of the many in question -- ha, ha) over in the mp3 forum: http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/883333/

Kevin

Back in the old days no-one would have tried to do all the composing, performing, recording, mixing and mastering all by themselves and I don't think that anyone should be expected to do everything to the highest standard even today. Of course, I may be biased, but I would think about concentrating on what you are good at and having someone else look after the areas where you are weak. If you can't afford to have every track mixed and mastered elsewhere, I would at least suggest you have one or two songs mixed by someone else while you look over their shoulder and ask questions.

If you want to read and hear a few mixing case studies then I'd highly recommend the Mix Rescue series in Sound On Sound magazine - see a typical example at

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep10/articles/mixrescue-0910.htm

James.

James: You are right about all that. It would be nice someone to mix this stuff and help teach me a little here and there. But, you do what you gotta do -- I am not that interested in spending any money (ha, ha). I'll just keep plugging away. Thanks for the input.

Kevin

Hi Kevin, when I started working with Joice I did a very basic introduction to mixing, it can be quite technical but I will gladly send it to you. It is a very basic condensation of what I went to college and uni to learn as I had the same problem, didn't know how to get the best sound for my music, didn't know how to mix. PM me with your email address and I'll send it to you.

Kevin,

As far as books I would highly recommend "Mixing With Your Mind" by Michael Paul Stavrou and "Mastering Audio" by Bob Katz.

Mixing With Your Mind is a fun read with tons of great common sense and unconventional ideas for recording and mixing.

Mastering Audio is a little more technical, but a must read for anyone interested in mastering.

Matt

Kevin,

Here's a mix I did for Scott Walters, it is the theme song for his wetland project in Minnesota.

www.walterswetlandbank.com

I played all the instruments. The beginning acoutsic guitar (and the acoutsic guitar all through) is really three tracks of the same guitar playing the same thing. They are recorded with a Shure SM-81 mic. One is lower and centered, two are hard panned right and left. I put all three on their own buss and then eq them. They have a bass rolloff from about 400 to 450hz on down. Then I put a very VERY mild compression on them set at 4:1 with a soft knee and fairly short attack. I also give them a bump from about 4k up to about 8k where I put on a treble shelf.

The vocalist, Sandi Kay, a great studio singer, is recorded through an MXL V-69 mic it has a bass roloff at about 150hz and a very small bump around 500 with a treble shelf increase from around 2k up, very small increase. The reverb is a freeware from Kjaerhus Audio, their Classic Reverb and it has a similar setting on the compressor, only even lighter, just to keep everything up on top in the mix. Also, I highlight sections by hand and raise or lower their volume to keep the mix even without squeezing it with compression. I did very little tuning, maybe a part of a word here and there.

There is a nylon string guitar on the left and a mandolin on the right playing figures as she sings. They are panned about 30-30. The whole track, other than the vocal, was bussed. The mandolin and nylon string, and you can assume everything else except for the bass, have a rolloff from about 150 on down. I didn't compress them, just highlighted spots by hand and raised or lowered them.

At about 0:23, there is a jaw harp (that's Mr. Frog LOL.) It's panned about 60 on the right. It, and all else except the bass was recorded with the Shure SM-81.

There is a tambourine hard panned left and shaker hard panned right. Tambourine is tricky, it's easy to get too much, as opposed to cowbell...there's never enough cowbell.

The Bass is an Englehardt upright with polymer "gut" strings. It has a KRK pickup run through a Fishman Platinum Pro preamp. I cut 20 hz on down, cut a little 80 hz, and boosted 100hz and a little of 250 hz.

The Irish Pennywhistle is about 30 to the left, has a high roloff around 5k and has a bit more of the Classic Reverb.

There is a vocal "tongue click" and two places where she over ran the mic, but not the track. See if you can find them. (This is a test ).

I mastered it with an Electic-Q EQ, a Kjaerhus mastering compressor and a Kjaerhus master limiter. When I master, I usually drop 30 on down a bit with a rolloff, bump 100 a tiny bit, then shelf from 10k up to 20k a few dbs with an upward slope. I'll dip 500 and 1k slightly. This is a starting point, then it's up to the ear to tweak.

The most important thing is...I didn't use Band In A Box.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Mike,

This is terrific...both the song and the mix! It really sets the mood for the site. And since I love environmental projects like this, it is a wonderful place for music such as this. Nice Job!

Mike,

This sounds great. thanks for sharing. Do you mean you played the acoustic guitar part three times or you used the same track three times?

LOL, I am trying to double my vocal on a couple of tunes -- it is tough to get it to sound like one vocal line. As for my guitar parts -- fahgetaboutit. I just play my guitar part, if I like it, I keep it -- if not, do it again. The thought of playing the same exact guitar part three times is foreign to me (and beyond my playing level). I never play the same part twice!

Kevin

Thanks, Jeff.

Colin, I played three parts. Getting the intro took several takes, because I knew it would be by itself. Nailed it pretty good...that's what happens after forty years of playing to metronomes and click tracks. If you listen to the guitar as the song goes on, you'll hear some differences between the right and left side.

Kevin, vocal doubles are tough for me too. Try this: sing one part and copy it to two more tracks. Put one lower in the center, hard pan the other two right and left but move them small fractions of a second later than the center, different fractions for each side. Depending on your voice and the key, you'll find there are fractions that become a "sweet spot" and really makes the vocal stereolicious. (my word LOL). Yeah, as I said, after about forty years of working at it, it gets easy.

Mike

"stereolicious"

Great word... :-)

Thanks, John, I might trademark it

By the way, when you are doubling and panning, either by copying or playing very close, you should make a habit of occasionally listening to the tracks in mono to see if there are any phasing problems. At best, it should add some shimmer, at worst it sounds like you are in a small tank at a low volume. You check while looking for the "sweet spot" in the panning.

All the Best,
Mike

One variation on this technique is to use a slight pitch shift on two of the parts - one a few cents up and another a few cents down. This is a great way to get rich and smooth backing vocals. In the old days Eventide included this as a preset on their expensive Harmonizers but nowadays it is easy to do with most computer systems.

James.

Hi I do that as well, but usually when I double up I add differing amounts of reverb and echo to each track and sometimes Eq, removing the high frequencies from the left and removing the low frequencies from the right and boosting the harmonic range (the very top).

I used three different vocal tracks with Joice, seperate takes and with a bit of twiddling provided some very nice harmonious singing ... there are no real rules but knowing lots of 'tricks' can be useful and add a different dimension to the finished song.

http://soundcloud.com/the-old-grey-wolf/joice-marie-and-the-old-grey-wolf-ltd-co-keep-movin-on

http://soundcloud.com/the-old-grey-wolf/joice-marie-the-old-grey-wolf-ltd-co-from-a-lush-garden

A more simplistic, and still very effective approach, is to just use a nice stereo delay (with a different delay time in each channel) for a slight thickening or doubling. Many delay plugins also have modulation which can be added to further thicken the sound.

I find that unless the singer is really good at doubling their voice, double tracking the vocals is just a waste of time as it rarely sounds as good as one track with a stellar performance.

Aye I do that too, Joice didn't know I was doubling her voice, so each was a separate take, usually because we changed lyrics rather than planning it that way.