JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville?

Poster: Polly Hager

This is going to be a very unpopular view, but, I consider writing the lyric to be about 10% of the entire process of the song



BOO! HISS! You're the one ELO did the song "Evil Woman" about, ain't ya???

When you did lullabyes for yo babies, did you sing the music or the melody based on the lyrics?

Like Stan The good Man says :
.......I'm aware about the only 200-year-old Pop Songs that have survived are Nursery Rhymes....
(and he ain't talking about the musical accompaniment.)
].
.

Don't Agree With 10%
I've been reading this thread with great interest. Where does a "co-write" come in? Every tune I have posted on my site is professionally demoed. I write the lyrics, I sing the melody --and then, I pay the demo firm to use professional musicians to accompany my accapella singing. But, I write primarily for female singers, so I also pay for a female demo singer. Frequently, the singer adds flourishes or style to the song.
The demo firm is paid to put chord progressions and a pleasant arrangement to my tunes. I actually pay extra for that.
So, let's say I get really lucky, and Susie Superstar likes the demo. She decides to record it, and it soars to number #1. Is the demo firm entitled to a cut of royalties? Not in the least, if Susie Superstar has a brain in her head. She'll redo the song with her own musicians, and her own style.
Polly is absolutely correct in one regard. If a songwriter needs a melody out of her, and she provides it, and that's the melody used in a succcessful song, she deserves a co-write. But, if the melody is already there with the lyrics, there is a ton of people who can write the background music for it. Including the musicians who work with the artist you are pitching to. The lyrics and melody and phrasing make the song unique.
Certainly,if you provide an artist with the musical base for his or her song, and they use it for their final product, you are entitled to a co-write. But if a songwriter uses your acccompaniment efforts to pitch to an artist (when the lyrics and melody were the songwriter's) and the artist decides to do the song, are you entitled to anything? Especially (repeating myself)if the artist takes the demo and has his own musicians re-do it?
Ott

BTW
Who's HAZE?
Don't forget I'm new here.
Ott

Ott,

That is a good question. Haze is a singer/songwriter/guitar and keyboard player who lived in Nashville for quite some time. He played for many years in country star Darryl Worley and many others. He moved back to his home in Cincinatti a while back for family reasons I believe. I got to know him a bit while he was here and that guy is amazing.

What he and Polly are doing are demos and in some cases write melodies when people are unable to do so. TO have someone of Haze's experience is quite a bonus for people trying to find their way. He puts a LOT of work into developing these things and it is more than just the random "throw a melody together work." he works to help craft a substantial part of the song and he and Polly are doing demos on the product. It is a very good process. In some cases Haze asks for co-writing credit. I am not privy to those discussions but I am pretty sure it is all talked about up front.

In my business I teach the songwriting process by actually doing it. I work with artists and writers and help them develop songs around their personalities and teach them elements of craft and process that they hopefully will use in all their writing. The "Teach a man to fish" senario. I have done it 2039 times in the past 7 years and many of those artists and songs have found their way into record deals, publishing deals, and helping people further their goals.

In all these cases, we are "fee for services." The details are worked out between the parties.

In Nashville, a "co-write" can be constituded by energy in the room. There are many times artists really don't get anything in the song yet their creative energy help that song get directed. Sometimes it is very 50/50, sometimes it is varying degrees of that. In LA, and New York, Often producers list their "tracks" as a "co-write."

In a perfect world, everyone would contribute equally.but that doesn't always work, especially with newer people, who in this day and age often end up being the artists, since the business is geared around younger people. They have very little life experiences. So the more experienced writers have to help out in that regard.

Pretty much every song has to be taken on a song by song basis. And what works in one situation might not work in another situation. There is no right or wrong. Just differences.

As you notice, Brian mentioned I am more involved in the commercial market. Others have their own definition of what their art should be. None are totally right or wrong. A lot of different ways at looking at all this.

Hope this explains it for you.

MAB

Polly
I didn't twist anything you said. You said the lyrics were only ten percent of the song. How did I twist that?
You also said you expected to get a cowrite if you wrote the melody and you also wanted to be paid. How did I twist that?

Here are your own words.



I really think if you expect someone to pay you for a melody and give you a cowrite you will probably not be doing much business.

I also said it was ok to do both. Write a melody for a lyric and get a cowrite then do a separate contract for the demo.

But there is a lot more to it than that. Are the Demos "DEMOS" or are they a collab with the lyricist? Will this "DEMO" be released and for sale? Or is this strictly for DEMO purposes? Is it work for hire?

Does the Melody get copyrighted separately form the lyric? or are they copyrighted together? If the lyricist isn't happy with the melody and you have taken a cowrite will the lyricist be able to take it to someone else?

But to make a statement if we do any more demos we will get paid and a cowrite is not sounding so good.

This is a very interesting discusssion. I tend to agree with Polly. IMO lyrics without music is just a poem. Melody without lyrics is just a tune. Even the two together make just another song....
To turn that into a hit or even a decent demo it takes great performances and production.
Most of todays hits are production driven rather than performance. The lyrics and melody of today are of little consequence to the overall song.... most modern pop hits have melodies that are very simple and basic most pop lyrics are repetetive almost moronic.....it is the production that makes it a hit. Most people do not even remember the lyrics or even sing the melody BUT are hooked on the production and its gimmicks.
I feel that the production teams in this world are very much under valued and under rated.
They are really the ones who deserve the credit for the song as their work is what really makes it a hit.....not to mention the many hours spent arranging and mixing etc. Probably many more hours put in than the lyricist and composer.

Yep, Pollys' right. The lyric accounts for 10% of the work. The melody also accounts for 10% of the total work volume.

The other 80% is taken up in production and/or marketing.

THat's something that you either do yourself, or pay someone to do.

cheers, niteshift

Hmmm...OK, I'm Late to This Party..but...

I'd disagree with Polly that "Lyrics are 10% of a Song." I'd say the TITLE/CONCEPT is about 35-50% of the MARKETABILITY of ANY Song, and most-often it's The Lyricist who comes up with it.

AND...go-ahead & Name Me how many INSTRUMENTALS lately have been Hits???

AND...It's always some of the Greatest Singers...like Frank Sinatra..who always gave their Writers CREDIT...before singing those Great Ones.

As a Lyricist, I've always ALSO given Credit (& Rights) when-&-where Due. I DO have Melodies..IN-Head..when I pen a Lyic. BUT..since I play no instruments..I've nearly ALWAYS split a song 50-50 "Rights-Wise" with my Music Folk(s). AND paid the Going Studio-Hourly-Rate as-well. (Tho that 50-50 usually got my Studio Time DOWN to $25 an hour..back when I had the loot.)

And..we could usually get us a Singer, too...for about $25 an hour...if it was to be Gal-Sung..(I'd always enjoyed singing the Male Versions..still WOULD except I got No Studio these days TO record in..until I master a TEAC Rig a friend gave me.)

Anyways...SOMETIMES a Singer/Musician DOES take a Demo to Another Level...&...yep, I got No Aversion to slicing the Pie a Bit-Thinner when that Happens. When Robert Pickens added His Vox to "Let's Take The Time" a few months back, The 3 of us Writers added Him to The Credits. I'm pitchin' it to a CBS Exec today-tomorrow...PROUDLY..and Trust Me, 25% of a HIT is a lot more than ZERO-percent-RETURN on a Loser.

Would I, the Lyricist, work for LESS-than-25%? Sure..IF I believed in The SINGER, The MUSIC, and The Marketing..AND The "SPLIT" was a FAIR One.

AM I, the Lyricist, worth LESS than the MUSICOS & Singer?

ONLY if they all wanna HUMMMM a Whole Lot.

Best Wishes & Big 25%-&-Up Hugs Backatcha,
Stan


Just HAD to post a "PS" here: Mark & Steve & Robert & My Demo..is on its way to Phil RAMONE in the next 2-3 weeks via my CBS Guy. (I have to make his 9" GE Oscr Fan work with some new gears I've found, in-the-meantime..heh!) STAY TUNED, Gents!

The never ending discussion. You can test it out.

Go to a music center, play something that is dynamic musically with very little lyrical content. If you are in a dance environment or background music, that will be the thing. But it will lose the attention span pretty quickly because it sounds like everything else.

Go to the same music center and do something that has tremendous lyrics and mediocre musical content.The lyrics will hold the audiences attention every time.

I used to be the Music guy.I was all groove and melody. In the past ten years since teaching songwriting the lyrics are really the thing that holds attention.Even if they are pretty inane and just singalong, the lyrics are what holds people's attention.

I have played all over this country and in a couple of others and unless you have something to sing along with that is memorable, people tune you out.

In this town it is 70-30% lyrics. In other places and formats it can be opposite.

Polly, I love ya, but you were just here and heard a ton of songs that all sounded exactly alike. Those are the people who believe in the 10% figure. That is why very few cut it here.

MAB

I still agree with Polly. With the exception of Religious and some Country most popular music has been traditionally performance or production driven. Today's pop songs melodically and lyrically are rubbish without the Melodyne and other production tools used....even the performances are mediocre at best. Most of the singers cannot sing and the kids who listen would not know good songs and music if it bit them on the ass.

I do write entirely for myself, but that's because nothing that I'm aware of has ever popped up that would encourage me to write specifically for any kind of audience. When I co-write with someone, it's also just a simple form of expression that we both attempted to render artistically. The thing about writing for oneself is just implementing what I'm picking up from the suggestions that are offered me here.

When a SERIOUS inquiry is made for me to significantly alter my writing style, I will consider it with equal sincerity, but unless and until, I will continue with my current path, which is learning how to craft my work with the help of writers on this site.

As for what Brian said, I am indeed listening to what Marc has to offer, but I may not show it all the time.

Sam
Writing for yourself is good. It allows you total freedom to express yourself. You can say what you want to say in any way you want to say it.

Where does that leave you in the song writing market place? You say if anyone makes a serious offer you might make a serious effort to write differently.
You started this thread asking how do you sell your lyrics. I wonder if you can "sell" a lyric if it is only written to please yourself. If you want your lyrics to "sell" they must be marketable, commercial.
Maybe that is the answer you are looking for.

maybe I need a dictionary

I said Sam should be AWARE of this.
I did not say Sam needed to BEWARE of anything.

As far as what you are offering Polly;
If it is a DEMO it cannot be released for sale, cannot be sold as digital downloads or reproduced on CD's or any other medium. That is why DEMO's are called DEMO. Demo studios are paid for the work they do. They also are not given cowrite or copyright to any of the completed song. They have already been paid for their service. They have no claim to future royalties. There is nothing wrong with that. It is an accepted and valuable service to songwriters. Even the ones who can write their own melodies.

Collaborators on the other hand do get cowrites. They get future royalties. How it is split up is up to the collaborators. If you and Haze are working as collaborators on these songs and get cowrite status that is perfectly ok..As it should be

Personally I would not pay anyone for collaborating on a song AND give them a share of any future Royalties. It is one or the other.


I'll add one thing
The last DEMO I had done cost me $150.00
It was Charted before the studio session. I assume that took about 30 minutes.
The Demo session took about 40 minutes. The musicians never saw the song before the session. The vocalist did the song in two takes (about twenty minutes, I was there) it was $50.00
All of the musicians where A List Professionals with credentials as long as your arm. Including tracks on dozens of number one hits.
All told it probably involved about 6 hours DEMO time.
It was well worth the $150.00 and I probably should have paid more
The Lyric took me MONTHS and several rewrites with Professional critiques which I paid for.

I did provide the melody so no cowrites were given.

Poster: BIG JIM MERRILEES
Subject: Re: What is the reality behind selling lyrics in Nashville?
[i]most modern pop hits have melodies that are very simple and basic most pop lyrics are repetetive almost moronic.....[/i]

It's odd I would see this note at this time. The song I've listened to the most in the past week is "Hey Soul Sister." The lyrics have a lot of rhymes but I think they are sort of moronic but I'm not smart enough to know what they all exactly mean. What does that say about me?

Whatever it says I dig that song.

Every literate person in the world can write a lyric (and sometimes it seems like they have). When they hear inane lyrics make it as hit songs they reasonably think "I can write something better than that" and they may actually be right some of the time. I've long said that music is all about production and melody. Lyrics mean very little in most genres. Country and some of it's offshoots (Americana etc.) may be exceptions, but they have their share of lame lyric hit songs now and then as well.

What most lyricists won't accept is that in the world of supply and demand their offering is in the most oversupply of any other part of the finished song by a margin of maybe thousands to 1. On top of that, there is a clear market for music without lyrics, but there is no real market for lyrics without music unless you're as deep and relevent to the national mood as Bob Dylan or one of a dozen people who might be able to cut through the masses in some meaningful way via lyrics only, you're out of luck.

I am a HUGE Bruce Hornsby fan. I have all his albums, have seen him 7 times live and listen to his music any time I am not screening JPF music almost exclusively. Last night I was listening to my favorite album of his, intersections, which is a mix of live and new arrangements of his catalog of work. I sat and very quietly listened to the lyrics and realized how much of them I had never fully understood or appreciated and it was like a whole new WOW factor came to me about his music. His strength is usually thought of as his music compositions, but the depth of his lyrics, sometimes written by him, sometimes his brother or him and other co-writers, are breathtaking. But it took me years and the right situation to really take them in fully. And that's my favorite artist. I could sing the lyrics fully but in some cases still hadn't really paid attention to them. It's the last part of what is most important about loving most, not all, songs for most, not all, people.

Brian

Bill,

Did i read that right... you paid 150. for a full demo? .. if so i would love to know the name and address of the studio.

thanks,
John

Correction on that John.
It was $150.00 for the music and $50.00 for the vocal.
Done During the last Pineyfest Demo Derby.

We tried to do another this year but it didn't work out.

I don't think you can get one done for that under normal circumstances.

All I was trying to do was point out the amount of time involved and the Demo was done by very talented people.

It might have been a couple hours more that I am not aware of.

I totally disagree that lyrics don't matter.
Can anyone say RAP or HIP HOP would have survived without the lyric?
The only people I ever hear that from is Musicians. People who don't write lyrics or play instruments don't think this way, IMHO.

I don't hear people (fans, non musicians) vocalizing guitar riffs or drum rolls, they don't hum harmonica parts or twiddle Banjo licks. When they whistle a song they don't whistle the music or the lead guitar break. They whistle the tune they remember and that is the melody which is sung in the lyrics. If they know the words they sing along. They sing the lyric hook.

Yes many times the people don't know all the words. They might not even understand the lyric. Many songs have been analyzed and picked apart to try to figure out what the singer was trying to say. Why? Because the Lyric mattered.

There was a discussion here about Alanis Morissette's song You Oughta Know and how important the song was. Can anyone really say the lyric didn't matter in that song.
IMHO the song would have been nothing without the Lyric.
Yes it would have made a good instrumental but it would have been forgotten.

How many of the 450,000 songs entered in the last JPF Awards were instrumentals?
How about the next awards be just instrumentals? Let's see how many entries you get.
I seem to recall an awful lot of lyrics being sung at the Awards show.
And yes I do agree most lyrics are not very good. Most are crap. It is really hard to write a good lyric.
So are most instrumentals that's why they need a good lyric to make them a good memorable song.
There are after all only twelve notes but there are thousands of words.

Lyrics are VERY important in Gospel songs,without them the true message would not heard, other than in sermons, but people will not listen to a sermon over and over,but they will in song, and a Gospel song is a 3 or 4 minute sermon, if it is well written. Amazing Grace, without lyrics, would be a nice tune, but it would not get people saved, but as soon as people hear the tune, the words come to their mind, the message of hope and grace and forgiveness for past and future sins.

Now if you want to dance, the lyrics are not important, it is the beat of the music. That's why Rock and Roll is so well liked, because the beat makes you want to dance, the lyrics mean little and don't even have to make sense.

If I were a top producer I would not ne interested in lyrics or even a melody I would be more interested in production hype and marketing...that is what sells a song.
As I stated already some genres of music are lyric driven but that is the minority. As for RAP well most of the time the lyrics cannot even be decyphered and the music is beat driven...nothing eles but production. These people could be mouthing off anything for all most people care.

My feeling is that each element of a good song is 100% necessary to its success.

Mark, WORD.

As for the discussions in this thread, I am using the resources that are available to me which can and may well help to a great degree in developing my talent.

Were I to honestly pursue a serious offer to write for a specific audience, that would require me to open another box entirely....

Thanks to all of you for your views on this, and don't run away from this topic to quickly....

I agree 100%.....problem is here are too many bad songs about where only production seems to be important.

Big Jim, just be thankful you don't have to hear the ones that didn't make the cut!

As far as lyrics, I'm on both sides of the fence. I love a good lyric that I can really reflect on, and I also feel the same as Brian about so many songs I love that I really don't remember much of the lyrics. I don't even understand some of my favorite lyrics. (The movement you need is on your shoulders. I mean...I think I understand that...I think...but how do I let her under my skin? And won't that hurt? Will it be gross?)

Country NEEDS lyrics...they're generally the most memorable part of a country song. It's a storytelling genre, a cinematic thing, like little mini-films. And even though there is a whole lot of country dance music, I think it's the sort of thing that people hear mainly in their cars, and they listen to the words.

If you play a rock song in the car, you just might be listening to the guitars and the howling voice more than the words...the story is the mood. Or sometimes the lyrics are like surreal poetry.

And the kind of highly polished international pop that Big Jim hates is usually filled with short phrases about a feeling. Sometimes without even needing words. Ra Ma Lalala, Gaga Oom pa pa.

You know, whenever I hear that Lady Gaga song, I like to add a little "walla walla bing bang" to the end.

I get a lot of funny looks at the mall.

Actually the 5th largest (out of 100) genre was inst. jazz, the 6th was classical, the 8th was instrumental, and other large ones included inst. Guitar, Inst. Piano (10th largest), Solo Inst (non guitar/piano), Inst. Celtic, Inst Rock, most of techno was instrumental.

We did have storytelling categories (2), and spoken word, though much of that incorporated music in some way.

Rap is about the beat, the groove, the attitude, the charisma of the performer and fashion and the chorus most of the time these days. Lyrics come after that.

Most people can hum the melodies from most famous and standard songs, but would struggle greatly to get much of the lyric right.

We probably have nearly 20 instrumental or mostly instrumental categories. I'd have to go look and add them up.

Brian

Definition --

A song is a relatively short musical composition for the human voice (possibly accompanied by other musical instruments), which features words (lyrics).


I'd like to add ....... that evokes human emotional response

Sam --- in this world there is supply and demand --- currently words are in Big supply
and very little demand --- this was not always the case

The trend for the coming decade is adapt and grow --- or be left behind.
Best wishes on your journey. ~ jm

WHEE..What a Fun Thread/Some Serious PO-LAR-I-ZATION Goin'-On!

Bottom Line: Sam, WHY Beef about the Difficulty of SELLING Your Lyrics when You Expect THEM to come to YOU with a Cash Offer before YOU've learned HOW to Write What THEY Wanna Buy?

You can't even sell LEMONADE without knowing how much Lemon..& How Much Sugar & Water to-add.

Good Songs are LOTS-Harder to whip-up...JMO.

Good Luck at it, Amigo!
Best Wishes Again,
Stan

Mark do not get me wrong I do appreciate good lyrics....even if I do not understand them.....I am a YES fan.....try understanding some of their lyrics.....I gave up at the shiny purple wolfhound. LOL
I am also a fan of some of the profound and deep lyricists whose lyrics are clever and thought provoking. Heck I even like some of the dumb lyrics......BUT generally in todays music most lyrics are unimportant as is the singers performance.....it is the production, hype, marketing and peer pressure that makes a hit. Sadly the public seem to get less discerning and more gullible with each generation.
Re todays music that I supposedly hate......well full marks for production just a pity they choose such poor songs and untalented singers to perform them.

Y'know what's kinda funny about this whole thing? For myself, personally, I love to listen to what is referred to as "New Age" instrumentals, or "Ambient/Chill".....

I'm driven to write lyrics, I work on my own stuff in order to make it into something that I'm proud of, and I also am open to working with other writers with the mutual goal of creating a lyric that we are both proud of....

But leave me to myself? I'll turn on Music Choice and veg out on music that has no lyric content at all....for hours at a time.

"Bottom Line: Sam, WHY Beef about the Difficulty of SELLING Your Lyrics when You Expect THEM to come to YOU with a Cash Offer before YOU've learned HOW to Write What THEY Wanna Buy?"

I was simply stating that if said opportunity ever actually presented itself, If anyone ever actually wanted ME to write for any audience, at that time, and only then, would I consider it.
I'm not realistically EXPECTING this to fall into my lap, but for the sake of discussion, I gave a hypothetical situation, and what my reaction would be.
But, the process of writing for some audience would also entail a lengthy (to whatever necessary extent) learning process which is no different than where I am now.

A hint about the aforementioned learning process? ALL ART IS WORTHY OF APPRECIATION, AND THEREFORE WORTHY OF THE TIME/EFFORT THAT IS REQUIRED TO CREATE AND FINISH A WORK OF ART.
Whether anyone else is even remotely aware of what is involved in the creative process, one thing is consistently true....

Nothing comes easily, nor quickly, and the love that one holds dear for that creative process is really the only motivation to do it at all.

I totally agree with this! You just can't wheigh the importance of the elements in a great song. Some songs just need a minimal lyric, other songs needs a more full treatment, and is of course bound by the traditions in the genre. If you have anything less than a great lyric in country, you will be drained away like spill water before any artist gets to hear your song. In rock, you can whine and act crazy, and it will be appreciated. Pop is probably the genre that accept the most clichés, but they have to be trendy cliché's

Personlly, I can finish 5 instrumentals for every song with a lyric. When you can play, everything just flows from your hands without thinking. For me it's the lyric writing that's delaying the process, due to the high bars of today. You have to wait for and collect great ideas, you have to develop it aside the music, and the rewriting goes on forever. The mind is a big obstacle, yet it's neccessary in writing those damn LYRICS!!

Those who can slip in poor lyrics in todays markets must have a lucky star or some heavy duty networks going on for them. Of course artists with contracts can do what they want, everything is a personal statement there and fits in some identity scheme or market strategy, but songwriters just can't do that. It's a completely different thing to be a non-performing songwriter.

hey Sam
there is one thing I might add to your question besides what
the other boys have ventured to you, which are all true.
I am from the old days of Nashville so what I say could be
taken with a grain of salt, but once you start selling your
material it becomes easy, kind of the Hock Shop thery. and
you might be selling a hit song for a hundred bucks. It
happened many times when I was there(Late 1974 thru 1984).
Jug

Yeah,you could make almost as Lady Ga Ga. She sold one million downloads of one of her songs on Spotify. She got paid $168. Maybe you could do almost as well as she did. Of course those songs were fully recorded and full songs. Maybe the music would be worth another $68.

If you find out this source of buying lyrics for money let everyone knows. I am sure everyone would love to go down to the song lyric store and pick up some extra cash. I have a lot of songwriter friends who would love to be able to do that. They are making nothing on them now.

MAB

Hey guys,

I've watched this thread for a few days and found it amusing. I figured about now might be the time to step in with a little perspective.

First of all about selling lyrics.

Jug, when I moved here in 88' I heard a lot of those stories too. There was always someone who had sold some song for nothing and it made a million for someone. The Wille "Crazy" story was always on people's minds. Most of that was stopped by the 1973 copyright laws which separated "writer's share" and publishing share. Although there are always charletons, it was pretty much stopped at that time.

It led me to a meeting with Tree publishing and the vice president, Dan Wilson, who was signing my song "That's Where It Hurts" to Tree where it would be recorded by Shelby Lynne. One of the many topics we talked about that day was the alleged "Selling of songs and lyrics." He kind of got that funny grin people do when they talk about some things. He said "That is kind of the songwriter's Bigfoot. A lot of people talk about hearing or seeing them,but when it gets down to it, nobody really has."

What has fueled this myth has been catalogue sales. That is where a publisher has the rights to a writer's work and sells some or all of it to someone else. One of the primary people this story was on was Roger Miller. When Roger died, his catalogue passed on to his son, Dean, who is a friend of mine.
Now, Roger didn't just write songs. He wrote poems, limericks, stories, a musical called "Big River", several things. At one point, Dean liscenced some of that stuff for books of poetry, collected works, etc.

That is what a catalogue sale is. You take a lot of stuff that is shall we say not that valuable, to get the songs or things like Dang Me, England Swings, and other things. Most of it happens after the death of the writer, but some while they're alive. Another friend of mine Chris Wallen, who has several number one's sold his catalogue. He got a LOT of money and started over. But he will write more songs.

What we are dealing with right now is getting paid period. I have very good friends who have songs on the charts and are supposedly making all this money who are having tremendous problems collecting on them. One friend, James Otto, sold 7,600 of his latest single in July. At the same time he had 80,000 ilegally downloaded on the Internet.

There are thirty BILLION downloads a month and 30 million artists on the Internet. This is what all of this is about. If they are having problems collecting on hit songs, what chance do you think someone with just a lyric is worth? Not much.

So the cash despenser for someone out there paying money for lyrics or songs just don't exist. As Dan Wilson told me, "We've got a million songs at Tree. I would LOVE to get a hundred dollars for each of those. That would be a pretty good day.

Before anyone thinks they are sitting on that "million seller" you have to understand that most songs these days are more like hundred sellers. There are abou 15-25 records a year in all of music that sell a million copies.

Even for the biggest contest in the world, American Idol, people like Ruben Stoddard and Taylor Hicks sold around 200,000 copies each. The break even point for a major release these days are around 650,000 copies. That is why you don't see most artists around for very long.

There are plenty of sharks. I once knew a guy who sold 400% of publishing on a George Jones song about to be released. He got $10,000 in advanced money and split town. When four publishers showed up for copy on the album they found out what he had done. The song was shelved and never released. One of my friends and co-writers was a co-writer on that song. Nearly drove him to a nervous break down.

So aside from a few crooks, the money up front for anything, is pretty much the musical equivalant of the "Nigerian General" who has billions of dollars in the bank and only needs the contents of your checking account to get them out and give you $20 million for your trouble. Yeah, right.

If you write songs, do it for the right reason. Because you are driven to do so. Pair up with people who can do what you can't. Write things that touch your own and other people's lives. Put all the money, deals, fame, hits, etc. on the back burner. Do everything else write and maybe you are sitting on a million seller. Sell a hundred first.

MAB

I'm a bit puzzled by this thread. Even more so considering that the original poster has clocked up over 2,000 contributions here so ought, I imagine, to have worked out the following.

Sam, if you "hear a lot about musicians who can't/don't/whatever write lyrics and could use a writer", then why don't you seek out those people and collaborate on some projects with them?

There are plenty of people who post music here and in other forums (Muse's Muse, SoundCloud, SoundClick, whatever) that want to work with lyricists. Many say so straight up. Some will gladly accept offers to collaborate.

Hell, I'm one of them. I write the occasional lyric myself but I've written a number of songs in collaboration with wordsmiths of one kind or another.

I would never pay them for the privilege, though. Nor would I expect them to pay me. It's a partnership and one that generally works on the basis that the lyricist gets 50% of the songwriting earnings and the composer gets the other 50%. Of course, the division is not always that clear-cut - each might contribute to the other aspect of the writing - but that's the basic principle of how it works. (Leaving aside, for the moment, the role of publishers and their cut for promoting your work and helping to develop your talent.)

That said, my 50% split in such enterprises has equalled zero money thus far. But some people have enjoyed listening to the songs. A bit. So what the heck? It was fun. Usually.

Bill, you AGAIN completely misinterpreted my statement, even after you quoted it...amazing! Haze IS NOT REQUESTING TO BE PAID FOR HIS MELODY...THAT IS COWRITE...HE IS REQUESTING TO BE PAID SEPERATELY FOR HIS MUSICATION/PERFORMANCE/RECORDING/MIXING AND DELIVERANCE OF THE FINAL PRODUCT!!! Because he is who he is, he has deserved the right to ask that. At a measly $150 for guitar/vocal (and he often adds so much more), many people think that's BEYOND fair, and again, who WOULDN'T want him on their song as a cowrite???

I just don't know where you're coming from, Bill. Do me a favor, go listen to www.soundclick.com/pollyhager and listen to "Burned", "One Together", "Man of Mine", "Rotten Candy" (although that one Joe Wrabek wrote, bless his heart, and SORT OF guided us to a melody, Larry "Haze" played the instruments and re-vamped the melody), and remember that these people came with us with JUST WORDS (Man of Mine...Dave provided a "clue" of a melody). Haze took these "slabs of stone" and carved them into viable songs. Often, he added even more instrumentation than what these people paid for. Always, he spent way too many hours making the songs the best they could be. How is the lyric, IN ANY OF THESE SONGS, better or more important than the instrumentation, melody, and performance? Please tell me! In fact, how could any of these lyrics been enough to stand on their own?

Polly
It is a waste of energy to keep beating this dead horse. The simple fact of the matter is you are expecting to be given a cowrite on a song for which you provide a melody.
I understand that and agree completely you (or Haze) should share cowrite on the song.

Once you do that it becomes YOUR song (or Haze's)as much as the lyric writer's song. You share ownership.
No one argues that.
That is how it should be.
I do understand you are not being paid to write the melody.

Then you state that you want the Lyric writer to pay you (or Haze)to perform the song.
And it is the arrangement or orchestration phase.
That is what playing the chords, Guitar, drums, keyboard, Singing, etc are. Performance of the song.
It does not matter what level of talent Haze is, it is still his song and you are expecting the Lyric writer to pay Haze to perform a song in which Haze has 50% ownership.

That is just simply wrong IMHO.

I'd ask you this. Why is Haze doing the song he has the cowrite on? Does he believe in the song? Does he believe the song has a chance to be cut.
You state Haze will be pitching the song. Or did I misunderstand that? Will Haze pitch the song because he expects it will be cut by someone and provide future earnings?
If Haze owns 50% of the song and performs it it is no longer a "Demo". It is a Master. He can release it, Press copies and sell it, do anything he wants to with it.
But you expect the Lyric Writer to pay for the "demo"

Once you take co write on the song it is YOUR song. Period. But you expect your cowriter to pay you to perform your own song.

That is how I see it.
Or am I not understanding it? If I am I apologize.

If you choose to do this it is your business. No one can tell you or Haze you should not. It is not my place or anyone else's place to tell you how to run your business.
If you have Lyric writers who are willing to pay you under this business model I say go for it. I wish you many successes.
I mean no disrespect to you or Haze. This is simply my opinion on the matter.

One small add. You can get Guitar/vocals done in Nashville for $150.00 every day.

http://www.barbaracloyd.com/Demos.htm

Selling lyrics......HOOOOOOOKAY!!!!!

I got a bridge for sale ($5)

Sorry, I couldn't resist. LOL Anyone who's good at selling lyrics, or whole songs for that matter, tell me about it. I wanna know.....


Markus
www.cdbaby.com/markusspence3

I'll tell you exactly why, Bill. Because now that the song has a lyric and melody...it needs performers. Even a guitar/vocal (as you stated, in Nashville is $150) is SEPERATE from the song. Haze performs the instrumentation, sometimes part of the vox, hires me to do vox, fires up his studio and records, edits, and mixes it, often adds other instruments to it, and has CONTACTS to get the song to. So, in reality, in a NASHVILLE setting, someone would pay upwards of $400 or more. Haze is asking $150 for his time (and his added time is his investment). It's like asking Eddie Van Halen to play lead on your rock song and then going, "God, Eddie! You wrote the lead. What MORE do you want???" (Assuming Eddie also did the vocals, the recording, the mixing, and delivered a quality studio version one could take to a publisher for $150).

Polly
The difference is those folks in Nashville don't own 50% of the song when it is finished. If you cannot see that I don't know what else I can say.

and to this

That is exactly what I would say if I was paying him to play lead on one of my song Demos.
It is how it worked with the keyboard player on my demo who played on 16 number one Alabama hits.

I DO see that! That's why I suggested my original formula!

Hehe, this thread has shifted to be about the reality of selling demos in Cincinnati :-)

It's a perfectly fine business model, Polly, when you separate the cowrite and the demoing. As I get it it's pretty much a package deal with Haze, and that's fine too if the writer accepts that model. It could be fine if Haze delivers consistantly, and has some work he can show up as examples in advance, so the writer knows what to expect. A great song is a great song, no matter how it's done.

Cowrites/demos between musicians works this way too, except there's no money involved and we usually share some of the workload. This proves the big disadvantage the lyricist is in.

At the end of the day it really isn't sustainable for a musician with a studio setup, to cowrite with lyricists only, if the musician/producer is to do all the work for free. So I certainly get why you do it this way.

The partnership between Elton John and Bernie Taupin was one of a kind, and would be more like the exception that confirms the rule, in this matter.

But I would also contest that this way of doing business is specificly aimed at lyricists only, as the idea of charging for demoing the song in combination with a cowrite will just not fly with songwriters who can play and produce themselves. So you'll win some, and you'll lose some. At the end of the day, you always look for opportunities to write with great musicians, and you won't be getting that action with this setup. So it will be somewhat demanding to keep this up in the long run, unless you work with other models of cowriting for different people (which would actually be pretty strange?).

Any studio should provide a work for hire agreement on a demo without claiming any credit for writing. Any costs involved in providing a demo should be split equally between the parties involved in the cowrite.
Should a musicator charge time for him to record a demo?
If it involves using a studio and/or legitimate expenses he has to pay...yes. These expenses should be split equally with the cowriters.....it is up to the parties to agree in advance on what is to be done and who is to pay for it prior to any work taking place.
I see nothing wrong with a composer charging legit expenses for his studio services even if he is a cowriter. Most lyricists have no idea how much time and expense is involved in producing a demo......compared to just writing a lyric. As the song will have very little chance of making any money it is fair that this extra outlay to produce a demo be compensated.

I had a long drawn out response to all this but decided to delete it.

I'll simply say you might be right. Lyric writers require no learning curve. Lyric writers don't do anything but sit on the pot for a few seconds and the lyric pops out all finished and ready to go.
If they are spending any more time, effort, and money learning to write lyrics they must be stupid or something. It's easy.

Let me know when you find a lyric writer who is willing to give you a 50% co write then pay you to perform your own song.

I'll check back once in a while to see how many co writes you are getting under this business model.

Well, all I can really say at this point is...Had I not asked the question, I would not have received so many answers.

Thanks to all of you for your contributions.

Bill if you work with a guy and you spend several hours digging over the garden only to see him come along and lay the turf in a few minutes expecting to be paid the same....would you insist on him getting the same wages?
The 50% split applies when someone writes lyrics and someone else whistles the tune......to turn that into a demo requires much studio time...that costs money and the cowriters should split the costs equally even if the person making the demo is a cowriter...he deserves an extra paid for hire for his work.
I have never charged for this demo service however.......despite providing it numerous times. just stating what I would consider fair.
You seem to insinuate that I think lyricists are stupid or second class....that is not the case. I just think that the art of musicating, or composing as some prefer to call it, requires far more knowledge, time, training and experience.....probaly the reason that lyricists outnumber composers by a considerable margin. Whilst I agree that lyricists can take time to compose lyrics.....it cannot be compared to the time spent arranging, hiring or buying recording studio equipment, recording the tracks, editing and mastering a decent demo.
I am surprised you expect the composer to pick up the tab as that sounds very mean to me.

For sure! It's a Thread Drifter's dream.

Jim to think Lyric writers have no investment is wrong as well.
If you own part of the song you are committing a conflict of interest to expect to be paid by your partner to perform it.
IMHO
It's kind of like the "company store"
Capitalism at it's worst... I'm surprised at you

The finished product is not a DEMO it is a master owned by the writers, both of them. This can be sold, shopped, set up for digital download. Anything either partner wants to do with the song.

If the composer has faith in the song they won't expect to be paid for COMPOSING THEIR OWN SONG because that is what it is.
If the composer has enough faith in the song to put their name on it why would they expect the Lyric writer to pay them. I just cannot see that as a fair way to do this.

I am by no means talented enough to match you or Haze's ability in performing the song but I do have about $7000.00 worth of equipment sitting here. If anyone came to me with a lyric and asked me to write the music for it as a co write I would never in my wildest dreams expect to be paid to record the music I have created and then have the Cojones to ask for a co write.
That is my opinion on the matter. I won't change the way I feel about it and it seems you or Polly won't either so lets just agree to disagree and move on.

I will wait patiently for news that someone is willing to enter into this type of co writing agreement.

Has it really?
Sam wanted to know about selling Lyrics. I assume that means no music is attached to the lyric. He would be looking for someone who could put music to it. Would he "sell" it, offer a cowrite on it? If he did find someone would he have to pay them to do the song AND give them half the song? or more than half as seems to be indicated here because he is ONLY a lyric writer?
isn't that what we are talking about?

Maybe that's the wave of the future for lyricists.
If you can't "Sell" lyrics.
Maybe
I'll take my lyric to Taylor and ask her to perform it. Heck I'll give her 10 grand if she'll put it on her next CD AND give her a co write.

Bill you are not grasping what I am saying.....I am talking about a demo not a performance. If the songs is demoed at a studio and the studio charge for the demo then both cowriting parties should split the cost equally. Same applies if the song is properly demoed by one of the writers and he incurs costs then these costs should be also split equally. He already fulfilled his 50% by writing the music. I consider a full production as being a demo of the song......We do not have the cheap demo system you have in the States. Regardless the extra work should be acknowledged as a work for hire not just a draft scratch performance. At the moment my studio is dismantled so I would have to in theory hire a studio to produce music for any lyric given.....should I alone be expected to bear this cost?
I think it is a bit mean for any lyric writer to expect a composer to be out of pocket this way.....especially when the lyricist has had no expense other than time and probably spent less time coming up with words than the composer has coming up with music. Supplying a demo track is over and above writing music IMO.