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Please don't waste your time trying to convince someone who has lived in a socialist country all their life to understand Capitalism.

People don't starve to death here, unless they are neglected children. That's the parent's fault. The Nazis starved people to death in concentration camps. I would like to see some credible stats of people who die in the US from starvation. People here, claim to be starving when they can't afford to buy nachos at the convenience store. Food is available everywhere. So is medical care. It is all mandated by local, state, and federal government.

Anyone who makes a living with no employer is a capitalist. I'm a capitalist, and make very little money. I will never give a portion of my meager earnings to someone else if forced to by the Government to do so. I will volunteer to help the more needy first.

I know the UK is talking about large companies with billions of dollars (BP anyone?), and large families (Like the Kennedy's).

I guess I could hire a lawyer and sue BP because I live on the gulf coast and my business has gone down this year, but I won't, because I have dignity.

I'll get by from the sweat of my brow.

Thank's for the advice from the UK, but, no thanks.

Oh Hey Puddle!! Nice to meet you. I've been away.

What's your Brit opinion on Brian May's Save-Me campaign to stop the repeal of Foxhunting and putting a stop to badger culling for bovine TB control?

Hey see, I do know a tiny something about Brit politics. LOL.

Anyway I appreciate what he's working on. But seems he's getting a lot of flack over there for it. He's a scientist though, he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the science and keeping the ecosystem balanced.
http://www.save-me.org.uk/feedback/

Linda

(yes, that's a blatant attempt to hijack thread into different topic)

You are right Joyboy. There was no filibuster. I guess there was a bill, S 109 maybe, but it was blocked somehow. Another attempt appears to have been made in 2008. There is so much conflicting information it is hard to sift through it to find the truth. If there even is a truth.
Far as I can tell what Fannie and Freddie did was buy the bad loans in huge quantities then sell them to investors who thought they were safe because they were Federally backed.
This was done, apparently, with the blessing of our Congress.

AS I understand it the Bill never made it to vote.
It apparently was blocked by Dems. Republicans screwed up by not forcing the issue but they needed 60 to pass it and didn't have the votes..
Dodd, Frank and Obama all benefited from the bill being stopped.
Obama and Dodd seem to have received considerable financial contributions. More than any others.

Are we drifting too far yet?

The stats you quote about debt actually prove my point......whilst huge multi national companies make trillions....the people pick up the tab for the bills these companies should be paying....that is exactly what I mean about unfair wealth distribution. Thanks for proving my point.
JFI Like you I too do believe that everyone should work and pull their weight as much as possible and not subsidise others. I have no time for scroungers living on the backs of others through handouts. Sadly the biggest cheats and scoundrels who fall into this category come from the very rich.
It is amazing that the same stats can be interpreted so differently by two people. We are all just pawns being used by the chess masters,,,,,,we have no power and certainly no democracy worth speaking about.

Re BP....There is no doubt that shortcuts were taken on safety....most if not all large companies like Union Carbide for example pay little attention to human lives, safety, ecology and conservation. BP are no exception. Just remember that BP is as much if not more an American company than it is British.....there are more US directors and employees than there are Brits.

Re Brian May.....he is involved in the foxhunting controversy. Most people are against this barbaric pastime. It was made illegal for very good reason by a huge majority. Now the tories, who traditionally love barbaric pastimes are back in power they are trying to repeal the legislation. Brian May is just a tiny part of a huge movement to stop this backward step.

Well,
I'm not sure what point I made for you Big Jim. Huge MultiNational Companies make trillions but people pick up the Tab? MulitNational Companies don't work with out workers. Workers GET PAID for their work. Maybe you missed that. If the companies can't sell the product(s) people get laid off.

When a company goes into business, it is the owners that take the risk. The employees only have to produce to get paid. They take no risk. If the company is sucessful they may take more of the profit but they deserve it. Or do you think the owners should work for nothing?

There is no free lunch. The Unions got what the wanted from the Automobile Manufactures. Guess what? The Unions priced themselves out of business and the Auto Companies went bankrupt.

That WAS uneven distrubtion.

Hi Niteshift, I used to go out with a nurse and watched over a period of about 3 years her disillusionment with working for the NHS, but it is exactly what I am on about, that is the really useful and productive members of our society, ie Nurses are treated like dirt, paid very little and the demands on their time are immense. Sound familiar ... and you probably know that the managers, who generally are the ones who screw it up are paid phenomenal amounts of cash plus perks and the doctors/consultants are also overpaid and treated like mini gods.

The NHS is a great asset and medical care is given to everyone freely and this is a good thing and I know that most English people do not mind paying tax to support it, they do mind the injustices of bad management and support the nurses in every way they can and we consider that it is a very good thing both in practice and principle to have free health care at the point of delivery.

I don't know the situation in Australia, please reveal!!

And my ex-girlfriend, she eventually told them where to stick their lousy job and dis-appeared into the sunset to live happily ever. Their loss!!

Sound familiar? Actually No it does not. My wife is a nurse and she is treated very well and is also paid very well. The Hospital she works at is world class and has a very high standard of care. That is usually the result when you let the free market thrive.

They are also very concerned about the future. The Highest paid experienced nurses and doctors may be let go to make room for new nurses and doctors at a much lower pay scale because of the New and better health care system that is proposed. Unfortunately the brightest and best will no longer want the job.

However if they make them Government employees that might be good since the Government pays about twice what the free market pays, for a comparable job, in the good old USA.
Of course our taxes will have to be raised to pay for it unless they can borrow a few trillion $$$$ from China

I am coming late to the table and probably missed the main menu. Thanks Ben for your courage to say what the majority of the people in this country really feel. No need to apologize.
Kevin, heard your song and liked it, and it was nice to see you participate in a political forum that you might actually wish had not been started.

You had a great Dad, Polly, very similar to my Dad and Uncles - who were true and appreciative patriots. Bill, those were very good quotes, not only funny but they show the truth below the veneers of some of our politiicans. Be nice to counter-balance with some good words on both sides, you know, the Kennedy - "what you can do for your country" idea and Reagan's "government is not the solution, but the problem" and "tear down these walls".

I wanted to make some comments stimulated by some of the things that people said here:

1. Criticizing the government is not un-patriotic and it does not mean that the person doing it does not love his/her country.
Love or Leave it, is not the answer, it just stops free speech.

2. I do know people who attend T-Party rallies. They are all honest, hard working, and patriotic citizens who love their country and the consitution. They are blue collar workers, doctors and other professionals, soldiers, unemployed, etc. They are democrats, republicans, independents, libertarians, catholics, protestants, etc.. Despite what the liberal media tells you, they are blind to racial and religious differences, they are not Klansman like fanatics, and you would be happy to have them stand by you if you ever really needed help.

3. I do not think anyone mentioned the adverse impact of a very progressive-liberal mainstream media, side by side with a similar public education system, which constantly misrepresent the truth and avoids facts; tries to remove God from our minds, and has helped create a large population of people who are self-victimizing and more socially dependent upon others.

3. The country's future does look bleak, but this pendulum swing has been predicted before. It occurs when more people become dependent upon government and taxation than the number paying in - and when the majority of the non-payors vote for more taxes and government control - thus increasing socialism.

I do not think we have lost the America that we all want back, but that it has stumbled. We have to vote out the clowns, and get more people working, and more kids studying and learning the truth about history, and how the present changes taking place will affect their future. They may have to put their cell phones down for just a little bit!

Doug

Got out of sink with the comments, but Bill we have a lot of nurses in my family, including my daughter.

The quality and types of doctors we have are changing and have been for some time.

As for myself, it has been an ongoing fight with private insurance companies to get paid for my services. They have many barriers and loopholes and you can spend as much time dealing with paper as your patients. But I have many more problems collecting from county, state, and federal payors (eg., Medi-Cal). Nationalized health care may be my stimulus to retire someday.

Doug

Thanks Big Jim. You might be interested in what Brian wrote re: Tony Blair yesterday on his Soapbox about his disillusionment with him: http://www.brianmay.com/brian/brianssb/brianssb.html

Anyway.... back to US politics.....

Linda

Doug
Those were great quotes.
I just need to find some from the other side of the aisle that are just as stupid.
I know there are some.

I never got a paycheck from a poor person.

Class warfare at it's best. The UK hates the rich. The US liberals hate the rich, though the most liberal members of congress are the wealthiest. Go figure.

I somewhat Agree with Polly... My request for my then 16-yr-old son to Mow-The-Lawn was met with "But Dad, that's Mexican Work"...
(Nevermind that we're only talking 15 Friggin' MINUTES to mow the Postage-Stamp Lawn we now have (Compared to the practically Football-Field-Size Lawn we had Out In The Suburbs for ME to cut as a kid..Weekly.)...

I blame SOME of this on the somewhat-Ritzy High School both sons attended..H.B.Plant High. (Most of the City's Movers-&-Shakers DID attend that school..within' spittin'-distance of The Palma Ceia Country Club..over the last 75 years.) LOTS of Rich Men's Kids..LOTS of 'Tudes. LOTS of Beamers & mini-Mercedes in the Parkin' LOT. (Yet..to give it its Due..Oldest Son got a Full College Scholarship to Mercer..thanks to Plant's Academics.)

But NEITHER Son wanted to Help Dad...around the house..and Dishwashing..Lordy, you'd think we wanted a Kidney Donated!

Both sons DID get Local Part-Time Jobs..& their Own Cars..WITH the money THEY earned...(SINCE they never DID wanna help DAD in his Clock Shop...a bit of a Father's Disappointment..but I only teach those INTERESTED in Learning The Craft.)

Oldest Kid JUST interviewed for an $85K a year Bank Examiner's Job..in Seattle. HAS come a long way from a Summer "Teller's" Job back in HS. Youngest finally left home a year-ago..for Montana..and got job at Best Buy selling Computers...his primary "Love" job-wise. NEITHER learned a thing about Yard Work..like I sure did BECAUSE my Stepdad woulda Killed Us Kids IF we didn't help maintain our yard.

So..I don't blame The Parents, exactly...I blame the Learned Attitudes from the HS Crowd. & the Videos that hype "How Rich & Carefree You Can Be" & bling-bling-bling.

MY hat's off TO The Mexicans...they DO know how to work..FOR cheap...and to Send The Money Back to Mama, too!

No 'Tudes either...they're HAPPY to have Jobs...(OURS..Formerly!)

Back to the Think Tank...
Best Wishes,
Stan

Like a RIVER, this thread has its twists and turns, and THAT'S OKAY, it happens!

Linda, you're right...our parents' generation, nor any after it (God willing) will never REALLY know what it's like to go completely hungry. That simply doesn't happen in this country. You all know (or may know) that my day job is housecleaning, and I'm a single mom. I don't know ANYWHERE ELSE where I could make $30 an hour housecleaning! I charge per job, which includes gas and cleaning supplies plus my time, but that is what it comes out to. GOD BLESS CAPITALISM!!! Do I deserve this amount? ABSOLUTELY! What I do is HARD WORK! My customers certainly don't want to do it, and I buy all the supplies and equipment, plus upkeep on the van and insurance, plus gasoline...and I am trustworthy, honest, reliable, and thorough. I started a business 17 years ago by passing flyers out door-to-door and in one month had $2,000 worth of commited customers! Again, GOD BLESS CAPITALISM!!! ANYONE who wants to get off of their ass and WORK can make a LIVING here!! I am a HOMEOWNER on a HOUSECLEANER'S salary!!!

I was engaged to a Scotsman for a period of time. He spent 2 weeks over here. He was amazed at how POLITE we are to eachother...in the grocery store, the gas station, the bars...he said it's because we all carry guns! LOL NO WE DON'T ALL CARRY GUNS! We all know deep down how FORTUNATE we are to live in this GREAT country, and even though we differ amongst ourselves politically (it's a BEAUTIFUL THING) we all love our country and respect it and eachother, as a whole. I see random acts of kindness every day, and try to be part of those as much as I can.

I have to admit, that after 9/11, I wasn't real thrilled with Muslims. Up until that point, I had joined a Uniterian church which respects the teachings of all religions, but after 9/11, Muslims just didn't sit well with me. After a time, after I observed the AMERICAN muslims apologizing for the extremist sect of their church which had nothing to do with the majority of Muslims, I started to "get it" and only in America does this happen. We have a Constitution that seperates Church and State. We can worship a friggin' rat's ass if we want to, and go to the Rat's Ass Church every Sunday, and nobody can condemn us for it, or not hire us on a job for it, or not sell us a home for it. We can hang a banner out on our front porches that says, "I belong to the Rat's Ass Church, and I don't give a Rat's Ass who knows!!!" and our neighbors will probably STILL invite us over to football parties and cook outs!

THAT'S the HUGE difference between us and other countries. In Scotland, it's all about Protestants vs. Catholics. Even their sports teams are segregated! It's so ridiculous! But that's how it is. Here, Hindus play next to Jews, who play next to Catholics, who play next to Protestants. At the end of the day, we're all people, and we're all entitled to be respected for who we are! Like Kaufman's song about "Believe The World Needs You" (It's on MP3) we are, for all intensive purposes, an all-encompassing society, and have grown the richer for it. ANYONE in America can make it if they put their mind to it!

Yes, we've been infiltrated, and yes, we have enemies, but BECAUSE we are such a strong nation due to our original ideals and foundations, we WILL perservere...we don't know how to do otherwise.

I second that post, Polly. The cultural melting pot, is one of the truly great things about the US! We could really learn a lot from that over here. Sadly European countires are being increasingly xenofobic. These are sad and dangerous times, overseas..

Hi Bill, we always aim to please, glad you found it amusing ... the commies are coming, lock up your daughters!!

In response to the comments towards the bottom of page 1... My grandpa was much the same way. However his angle on it was that while his children would never want for anything they also didn't live in excess. He taught that excess is to be given away in the form of hospitality, taxation and voting for social betterment programs, volunteer time and donations.

My parents gave us a cushier life than they had to be sure, but the spirit of not beleiving in your own supremicy, working hard for what you have, and the willingness to share your success with those who are less affluent were definitely a strong part of our upbringing.

These values aren't dead, they're just passed on to fewer people.

the smallest government is the best government

No economy model is perfect and you cannot rule out the fact that the bush administration sucked our country's blood. The effects are so bad that still our soldiers are trapped in iraq...we are people with hope and we expected that the obama would bring some sudden miracles...He is no magician with a magic wand and what he is doing is taking slow steps towards global peace which is required and the long term effects as i believe would be positive..

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Wait a minute.....

Are you saying we CAN rule out the fact that Obama may be sucking our country's blood through the stimulus funds, his bailout funds, and his burgeoning bureaucracy?

What you are saying may be true but with regards to what happened during the government change ...Obama came in and bang recession was at our doors...I quoted that no model is perfect but if you have believed in someone and given him an opportunity rather than making out the flaws you should look at what is good...I just believe at the present time peace is more important than any other thing..read about the activities that are going on in china and how they are a threat to the world and i think that obama administration is taking quite satisfactory steps in comparison to what bush did which made the world thing that americans are just after the oil in the world and will go to any limits to gain it...

The point you made is perfect polly....and to those who think otherwise i will give an example...i have lived in India for a while...we know the country is poor and do you know what my servant got their for the same job S15 a month...We have so much in the world that we think that our little problems are too big...Do you know a learned prof. in south east asia...Who might be an engineer or a doctor or a phd...gets paid less money for a days work than what polly gets for an hours work....

But i would contradict polly on the last point she made...We are not strong people...The terrorists have won against us why??? Because we panicked and the whole world saw that and we are still being laughed on by the other nations on our reactions...

Almost everyday around 10-20 people die in terror attacks in countries like pakistan, iraq etc..R these people not human beings...??? Or are we some super humans????

The muslims are not terrorists...They are just poor people and why poor because their religion does not allow birth control...they cant use a freakin contraceptive because that is considered killing...so these poor people become terrorists so that they satisfy their hunger or support their families. I know agree some muslims are terrorists but even most of the terrorists are not because they chose to be like that...

It's all shaping up as it is suppose to do in the last days, wars and rumors of war, men's hearts failing them for fear, earthquakes and pestilences in diverse places, stormes raging, when we get peace in the middle East, watch out then, sudden destruction. It's all in the bible.

Being laughed at because of our reaction to the slaughter of three thousand of our citizens?
So what you are saying is they don't understand why we are so upset about it? If you are correct it would explain a lot.

Almost every day 10 - 20 people are killed in terrorist attacks? Meaning what? It is normal? If that is true then what are we to think of these people who think it is "normal" behavior?

They also don't get upset over stoning 20 year old women to death in a public square.
It's normal.

Do I want to live next to people who think this way?
NO.

I listened to an interview of a young American born Muslim woman on the radio. She was asked what she thought about the 9/11 attack on our country. She said she understood why they did it.

She understood why they did it?
How can anyone understand why they did it? I can't.
I cannot understand why anyone can deliberately kill 3000 innocent people for any reason much less 10 or 20.

I cannot understand how anyone can understand it. If you can understand it you probably are capable of doing it yourself or at the very least would condone it or protect the people who did it.
And that is the problem.

Back to the subject.
Are you getting the change you expected from the Obama Adminstration? According to most if not all the polls the people are saying not. The unemployment rate under the Bush Adminstration was about 4.5 percent. Today it is about 9.6 percent. So what happened? The Democrats took back the Congress in 2006 and things got worse. Why?

Some are blaming the Housing Bubble. It has been discussed before here so there is no use in going thru it again.

Our current economic situation actually got it's start in the Roosevelt Adminstration and balloned from there. Bigger and bigger social Programs has led to a 13 trillion dollar debt.

People went to the Government complaining that they couldn't qualify for a housing loan. So the rules were modified so people could get a house loan. Some got loans where they only had to pay the interest and not the principal. After a time I suppose they had to pay that too. So what happened? The banks were right and those that couldn't qualify couldn't make the payments. So the housing meltdown. And of course it snowballed and high unemployment was the result.

Now Obama thinks we can spend ourselves out of this problem. There is only one problem. High unemployment and no money for these big programs.

The Party of No is the Party of No for a reason. And we now have about 13 million and growing reasons to prove it.

Obama doesn't want to extend the Bush Tax cuts for all.

There is an old saying. IF THE GOVERNMENT SCREWS BIG BUSINESS, BIG BUSINESS SCREWS LITTLE BUSINESS. Guess who litte business screws?

Have To Speak Out:

Hey, I reached my goal of 50 songs in the 50/90 song thinga-ma-jobber. Only about 9 or 10 recordings, though. 50/90 ends Oct 1st -- I am gonna try and do a bunch of recordings before then.

Yea, me! http://fiftyninety.fawmers.org/users/kevin-emmrich

Kevin

You are correct bill but isn't commiting murder for murder brings you down to the same level as they are...???
Bombing a nation down creates chaos in the nation and lot of innocents die.. Why should they die because of the mistake of some Saddam hussain or some Osama bin laden???

Nobody is born a muslim or a christian they are just made to think that way....Hatred for hatred brings back more hatred..or havent we learned from history too much...? those terrorists are pissed off and if they get a chance they would strike back again...

Having an open mind towards human beings does not take me down to their level....I dont backup the 9/11 attacks but i do still say war is never going to be a solution...
Imagine these guys had just a plane and some explosives how much damage they did...What if that plane was filled with nuclear weapons????And who can gurantee that they havent got one now???

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Way to go, Kevin! Congratulations.

To Whom it May Interest,

I'm for freedom. It's my default setting. I'd rather be free and have to work and struggle than to be regulated and be fed and housed. These days I have no desire at all to argue with those who disagree. The time is better spent doing what can be done to advance freedom. That's all. So be it.