JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Kristoferrson's helicopter

Let's leave aside Nashville's Marc, Blazetrack's Ron and their wonderfully informative(I mean that sincerely)discussions of various services and networking.

Let's leave aside the $20 bill bribe, or the naked singing telegram chick delivering your song to an artist's door.

Is there a modern day equivalent of Kristofferson landing a helicopter in Johnny Cash's back yard?

I have 1 song that would be perfect for artist "A", and another 1 song that would be perfect for artist "B"...If anyone needs some lining for the bottom of their bird cages, I've got dozens more that would suit your needs perfectly.

Neither artist "A" nor "B" have had a hit in ages, but they are both very well known and play to packed houses.

So, trying to think creatively, and on a budget, here's what I've come up with:

I will join these Artist's Websites and their Fan Clubs. I will gently make a few entries into their forums and do some mild cyber-networking/relationship building. I will, eventually, post a link to the two songs and state that I was inspired by the Artists and that the songs are sort of a tribute, and ask what people think.

I will NOT nag, beg, plead for someone to get in touch with the artist for me...I will simply place the songs out there, amongst the Artist's fans, and let Karma do the rest...And in the meantime, I'll continue to write screenplays, because that's what I do these days:-)

Silly me, I know. But I don't have a helicopter license.

Midnite

(scratches head)....Now where the heck did I put that needle in the haystack again? I could have sworn I put it right over there...

(Walks to location in question)...

Nope. It's not there. Can someone help me find it?

Not sayin' you won't find that needle, but if you burn the hay, you definitely eliminate hours of searching. :-)

Too true Greg...But the hay makes me sneeze:-) Now, if I was as young and handsome and talented as you, not to mention a$$ bustin' & hard workin', then I wouldn't need a virtual helicopter...But alas, I fear my prime, and musical energy, is gone....But two decent songs remain, along with a few that I'm managing to sneak into my films:-)

Glad I didn't quit my day job, and am just trying to tinker around with a few left field, or back door, ideas.

Midnite

You're never too old to make a friend or two brotha man. That's pretty much what I do when I'm not writing.

Shhh, I'm also a college student working on my degree in communications...So I don't wear just the writer hat (even though that's my favorite hat to wear). :-)

Someone once told me that success doesn't necessarily mean making lots of money. I would say that's true...(shows empty pockets). lol

Truth be told, no one's going to heaven with pockets filled with gold. Some of us can go to Heaven with our hearts filled with JOY though! Joy is found in the lives we live. Lives filled with love, family, God, and good friends is what will make us richer than material wealth.

Speaking of making friends....I just discovered that the guy who runs one of the Artist's website forums lives within 30 miles of me down here...So at the very least, a new friend with similar musical tastes may be waiting just around the corner.

Life's good.

Midnite

Now you're talkin'. :-)

I have a friend who has a helicopter charter service if that helps......

Thanks Colin...Lemme know if he's got a flight plan to Spielberg's house, or better yet, is willing to crash land it with flames and explosions in Michael Bay's.

Midnite

Pretty sure the cost of crashing a helicopter trumps the royalties from a hit song.....

Most artists have surface to air rockets on top of their houses now. Good luck.


Guy's, let me see if I can approach this another way. I understand that everyone here think that it is all about access. Access is a part of it. Getting songs in front of the industry is a part of the stuggle. But it is only a small part.

Everybody on these types of boards all have the same thing "if they could only hear THIS song.. My song.... etc." That is only a small part of it. You have enormous egos involved in the music industry. Everybody seems to think that artists, producers, writers, etc. all sit around waiting for that NEXT song to come to them. I can't for the life of me understand where that thinking comes from.


Think of yourselves for a minute. How did you get to where you are where you think you have music that artists, the industry, people who have done this professionally for most of their lives, HAVE to have over their own? Where do you get that idea?

Are you out there performing, pushing your CD's in every lonely roadhouse, driving thousands of miles a year, doing it night after night after night, making little of nothing, working multiple jobs BESIDES your music, approaching your music like an unpaid second job, that has people besides your friends, parents, relatives, telling you how good it is? Are they beating down your doors to have your music over anything else? Are you selling millions of downloads? If you are, why do you need these services?

Because that is what anyone in the music industry does. They generally are "big fish in little ponds' having gone as far as they can in their own areas. They usually have a completely different career music wise, either in clubs, or college or something else that gives them the drive to move to a music center in the first place. They have spent a lot of money usually on recordings while working multiple jobs, BEFORE they move somewhere else where their music can get bigger.

And granted, even the current crop of Karaoke Cowboy and Cowgirl's that make up the reality show circuit might not the most long distance experienced group on earth but they do have EGOS, and someone convinces them to go on these auditions.

So by the time anyone who gets to a town like this, they have gone through YEARS of trying to write, to sing everywhere and anywhere. Then they are put into a holding pattern here. and they do the same thing except starting over.

Think about your own music for a minute. How much have you spent on your demos? making tips? Buying home recording equipment? How many hours do you sit in front of this screen you are staring at,
late at night, early in the morning, anytime you can sneak a minute during work, to check out these posts, other threads, listening to music, visiting web sites, going to late night writer's nights, open mics, when you have to work in the morning just to play two songs or hear some singer? Making the trip for a seminar, writer's weekend, song camp, etc? How much have you spent?

Now you are going to tell me that you are going to put someone else's song that you don't know, have no connection to that is really no better than yours, OVER your own, if you have a very rare chance to play something for anyone else? You can't tell me that with a straight face. You guys are beating yourselves to death trying to find a way to get your own music out there. And everyone keep looking to all of these other services as the magic answer because there seems to be no other way.

This is what a normal modern artist is looking at:

When they are signed (which is AFTER they have something that demonstrates their own selling abilities, You Tube, fan base, impressing people INSIDE the music industry.) They are in an intern type situation for one to three years before major label product is released. And then only a single at a time. The submissions for new material look something like this:

Submissions:

Songs they have written themselves: 25-50.
Songs their co-writers try to pitch them: 300-500
Songs their publishing companies submit (Their bosses)300-500
Songs from other major companies: 300-1500
Songs from independents with repuations: 2000
Songs from outside sources they don't know 2000
Songs from TAXI, other services 3500
Random shots in the dark 3000

Not all of these songs are listened to. Most fall by the wayside. But if you work for a publishing or record company, this is what comes in once a project is announced in the trades (Row Fax, tip sheets, magazines, etc.)About 300 have serious chances at being heard, about 100 serious chances at getting enough consideration to really be in contention and about 30 have a real chance at being recorded.

That is EVERY project. And people here continue to talk about the difficulty of getting "forwards" from some company.


My contention is that there is not ONE project on established artists that anyone has a shot at. Period. That is not where you need to concentrate your efforts. Your efforts need to be on the "Next big potential things." The new artists. The people on MySpace, face book, etc. who are performing in local areas, who are building their fan base NOW so they can have something TOMORROW.

Once they are on their way, they are on their way. You don't have a chance at them.

Does that mean people don't pitch every way they can? Of course not. Even those of us with pitch services, song pluggers, publishers, etc. pitch every way we can. You never know where something is going to get lucky. Law of averages. But it has to do with diminishing returns and limited resources.

You can spend $300-$1500 with unknown faceless pitch sources, or you can make a trip to a music center, get a great sounding demo, write with other people, investigate up and coming artists, try to get into writer's circles or neighborhoods, or do things that legitimacy have some chance of return.

The choice is up to you.

All of these pitch services will tell you how they can put you into the living rooms of the artists. I am telling you that even if you were in the living rooms, getting a fair listen is probably just not going to happen. There is no real way it CAN happen because of the personalities, money, and directions the professionals who actually do this take.

I am just trying to provide the other side of this equation. Take it or leave it.

MAB

Midnite.

Taking your scheme to the next level.

Why not start your own fan club for the aritstes. Build it up and then pop your own songs in.

Yep I know it's crazy...lol

God Bless Roy

But ya see, Marc, I'm not thinking Nashville, or even a hit. Honest. Let the young 'uns have their fun.

I'm just musing about one(or 2) particular songs, aimed at a particular artist who's still active but has never been "on top", and yet are known to be encouraging to songwriters.

If I WERE serious, or still writing songs, then you'd be my go-to-guy!

Love ya.

Mean it.

Midnite

No need to Roy when other dedicated fans have already established the clubs and all I gotta do is play nice:-)

But sort of along those lines, I've got an 8 minute short film about to be completed that's based on an Emily Dickinsen poem. The reason the Independent Group chose to film my script, rather than 4 others, was because I stressed, during the "pitch" night, that mine had a built in audience, complete with Emily Dickinsn Facebook & MySpace pages with hundreds of "friends".

There's no money in "shorts", but since everyone was looking for maximum exposure...Well, there ya go.

Midnite

Chris Young poster here for years and years and has had 2 #1 country songs in the past 6 months. One he wrote and one someone else wrote. We have 100's of new artists come through here every day, but only a couple actually bother to register. Until recently, most of those were ignored if they weren't aggressive enough to jump in. Our new program of helping hands is improving that a bit, but how many of you are really watching all the folks who come through here closely? How many are reaching out to co-write with the new guys and gals? Odds are we'll have another Chris Young come through and there may be one or more already here... do you write with lots of new folks, or on your own or with only your good friends? Do you embrace other genres? Do you recruit artists you find when you're out scouting for talent to come here and get involved not only with you but with your group of peers who should be doing the same thing?

There's plenty of worthy artists out there for your material... find them, write with them, catch them on the way up and become their friend and when they rise up they'll take you another notch or two up with them. Those of you who helped Chris out probably have or had a shot at moving up a bit as well. If I were actively writing now I would be always scanning the web looking for young talent that would sound great doing my songs. I would bring them into my world and get to know them and have some laughs. I'd help them with their career in any way I could. I'd ask them to write with me even if I was doing the lions share of the work. My quote below is true... don't sit on your hands.

Brian

I agree Brian. There is so much, and are so many, that we overlook because we're stuck in our ruts. And they all have Soundclick & stuff so that we can scout 'em out on our own.

There have been some great collaborations here on JPF, but how many are with younger, hungry Artists?


Midnite

Midnight,

I'm never talking about Nashville or hits. I give the Nashville perspective because that is where I live and work and that is ultimatly where most of these efforts end up. And LA and New York are even harder.
In every post, I talk about writing what you love, getting it out to people AROUND you in YOUR area. Instead of just doing everything on the Internet and being a "living room writer."

Chis Young is a very good example. Participated in this thread, in the NSAI thread, I think he told me he has been on every songwriter forum availible. And he is doing well here. Did see him quite a bit then he has gotten hot so I see his Father nearly every Wed. (up until last week) at "Beer for Breakfast" a show that hit writer Gary Hannan, (Tequila Makes Her Clothes Fall Off) put on each week at Tootsie's Orchaid lounge.

My entire focus is on NEW writers. New artists. New people trying to find their way. That is how you create a career, by getting in on the ground floor BEFORE someone has begun their ride, and by extension they become part of your ride. If you study music history, that is the way every major artist and writer were started. It was by people on the ground floor.

And it is hard to do. I'll not deny it. You have to prove yourself constantly. But that is what you are trying to do anyway isn't it?

When I see about half of these threads, particularly on song services, I feel like people going into a house that has been abandoned long ago. I care about how people spend money and their overall music journey. I don't really care how they get there but want them to see all sides of any particular issue.

The current method of the music industry is to build it yourself. Build a reputation, and people come to you. From there more people, more songs, etc. come to you. How do you do that? That is the trick, but in my experience it is not done by remote control. There has to be personal contact. The problem with the Internet is while it is personal to a degree, about 80% of it is a total sham. it is cutthroats, identity thieves, scams and always someone working harder to take someone's money, than people who are trying to figure out how to take money.

So that is my deal with the limitations of the Internet. It is a tool. A useful tool. But it has it's weaker points as well. Most people, especially dreamers, never see that until it is too late.

MAB

I totally agree Marc. The 'Net is only a (sometimes dangerous) tool. When I lost my songwriting Muse, I spent a year in my attic(literally)hammering out screenplays...Another silly dream since I live on the wrong coast.

But the first day I came out of my attic and actually joined a local Film Meet-up Group was the same day I started relationships that led to the 2 films being released later this summer....And from there, who knows...I've made some 'Net Connections, "Net'ections"(?), have followed up other leads and things that we're supposed to do, and also keep up monthly trips back to DC.

But MAINLY, the MOST important THANG, is I'm back to writing stuff that I feel passionately about...And it's hard to continue to do that in a vacuum, ain't it?

Midnite

P.S...And let's not forget that when Kris wasn't borrowing helicopters, he was also pounding the streets in N'City.

And I should also add, that when Kris landed, he had "Me and Bobby McGee", "Help me make it through the night", "For the good times" and "Sunday morning coming down" in his pocket.

If we all did, somehow manage to get an Artist's attention for a few moments, would we have anything close to that in our Library?

Midnite

I'm a Kris fanatic and I doubt if many of Nashville's best writers have songs as good as the ones you named.

Cash wrote the liner notes* for one of Kristo's early albums. I don't remember much about the notes except Cash ended by saying something about "I heard those songs five years ago" if I'm not mistaken. So, if that was true, it may be that as great as though songs were, it took a while to get them recorded and released. I thought that was interesting.

* Liner Notes--the writings on the cover of old fashioned vinyl albums. Not every release had them and I think current releases have them to.

Kristofferson is basically known for five songs. they are amazing songs, and he wrote them all around the same time.

Sunday Morning Coming Down
Help Me Make It Through the Night
Why Me Lord
Me and Bobbie McGee
For the Good Times

He also had them for several years and played them for several artists, producers and publishers. They were all turned down.
He had a publishing deal with Buckhorn music, while he did janitor work with Tootsie Bess at Tootsie's Orchiad lounge, CBS records and other area locations. He also did acting and many other things at that time, including serve in the National guard reserve (he was a captain and turned down a job to teach at West Point) He also was VERY much into illegal substances as was prett much everyone else at that time, Willie, Tompall Glassier, David Allen Coe and others. It was the 60's and 70's.

The Helicopter incident came out of that. He and a friend did "borrow a copter" from the Armory and landed it on Cash's yard, stepped out and played "Sunday Morning Coming Down." that is where it all started but that song had been turned down before also.

A friend of mine was hired to go through back catalogue a few years later and his main job was to go through Kris's songs. says, "Everybody knows Kris for those five songs. And they were great. But Kris wrote some DOGS. You could tell when he was writing for his contract and when he was hungover. There were a LOT of those songs."

The point is that everyone is not perfect, you always write more crap than anything else, mediocrity is out there all the time. We are all just trying to rise above it.

MAB

Kristofferson should have stayed a janitor. He supposedly was a Rhodes Scholar. He could have been a Strode's Scholar. He just went to the wrong school! Can't say I like any of his songs. Maybe I need to re-invent that Bottle of Wine! He probably don't like any of my songs either!

He would probably say that too. One of the funniest things I ever heard was at a "Highwayman show." It was the Country Radio Seminar about 7:00 in the morning.

Kris was complaining onstage about how his "throat was sore and he was having problems making it sound good."

Waylon said "How can anybody tell the difference."

That one killed everybody.

MAB

Some of the ones on his first album were awful IMO. I think some of them got recorded though There were also some I thought were great like "Just The Other Side Of Nowhere." I don't know if anybody ever recorded it though.

When you hear some of a prominent writer's "dogs," it gives you hope. At least it did me.

I've always thought The Beatles did some crap too. And made money off of it!

Sausage,

I feel that way too. By the way, the friend of mine who went through Kris's songs and called them that is Sherril Blackman. He is the number one independent songplugger in Nashville.

MAB

I'll grant ya the "5" for the general public's limited knowledge, but would dare anyone to find a true "dog" anywhere on the Silver Tongue Devil and Me.

The Pilgrim, Chapters whatever
Loving her was easier than anything I'll ever do again
Jody and the kid
When I loved her
Etc...

Granted, not many number ones, but c'mon, don't diss da Kris....:-)

Midnite

Oh he has em', you don't want to hear em'. he has the good sense not to record them.

I would be great with him if he didnt' sing em'

MAB

I think that was his second album. I can't remember which had most of the big 5 Marc mentioned but I do remember the songs you named. I thought Pilgrim Chapter 33 was great. I always wondered if it was about Cash. Another one I liked on that one was Breakdown, which I called "Long Way From Home." I think that one was Kris' autobiography. I think that's how it was, my memory sometimes malfunctions.

Yeah, it was his 2nd. The Big 5, except for "Why me Lord" were from his first. The stinkers rolled in steadily after that.

Another quote about his voice came from Johnny Cash. Kris was sitting next to him at June Carter Cash's funeral. Before the service began, a little old lady stopped and told Kris how much she loved his voice. Johnny leaned over and said "That's one".

Midnite

Yes! There's an "app" for that!

You'll virtually be there.

I would suggest simply delivering a copy of a cd with the song on it ... (the cd should be insterted into the cd player of the Mercedes SLS of course).

Tom

Years ago I saw a TV interview where they asked about his voice. He said something about singing good enough to do his songs.

He's like Dylan to me. His voice is unique but I've grown to like it. The first time I heard Dylan was the Nashville Skyline album and I thought he was horrendous.

Kris,

Always wanted to be a movie star. His music opened up Hollywood for him. He was sleeping with Janis Joplin when she first heard "Me and Bobby McGee" and that opened up LA for him.
That led to his role in "A Star is Born' with Streisand in a part that supposed to be given to Elvis. But Col. Tom wouldn't let him do it.

So at that point while Kris still wrote songs, he concentrated more on his movie career.

MAB