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Bayside
by Gary E. Andrews - 10/19/26 10:48 PM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
JPF Mentor
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JPF Mentor
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Ray, I'm just reporting RIAA platinum. If you want to make your own platinum list, go ahead.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash It's only music. -niteshift Mike Dunbar Music
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This is exactly why I left science. Everybody is just opinionated for no good reason :-)
Music industry people aren't that dumb. They won't make us songwriters work for nothing, so why don't you just write the damn songs..
This standard rant has little to do with what this thread set out to be about. I guess the info requested was about if any studios could be recomended or if anyone was better than others.
To that I'll say, sure some are better than others, but it depends on what you want (and your taste, and how good you communicate if it's mail order). I tend to seek out the ones that's able to produce good contemporary sounding country, because that is what I believe I write. So a display of producing chops and samples of contemporary styled songs are important.
Those who specialize in traditional stuff are just as good, just for different writers.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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The Smith is Anthony Smith. There is also Russel Smith, who wrote "Third Rate Romance, Low rent Rendevous" for his group "The Amazing Rhytmn Aces. He had other hits for other artists as well.
About half the writers on that list are here in Gulf Shores Alabama and Perdido Key Fla. for the Frank Brown Songwriter's festival going on right now. This is the second day of the ten day festival.
In 2003 there were 1480 staff writing positions. As of now there are around 310. Those are divided equally between up and coming writer/artists and established hit writers. Of the established hit writers and people with major cuts, ALL have direct contact and relationships with the artists involved. For instance, Scotty Emmirick and Toby Keith grew up together, played in bands and Scotty has been with Toby since the beginning of his career.
The Nashville system of writers and artists can best be described as High School/college. Freshman, Sophomore, junior, senior. Each lasts around 3 years. When you first move to town, or began to make inroads by consistant trips, you write with people at your level, or a little above or below you. They are people you meet at writer's nights, party's guitar pulls, BBQ's.
As people get to know you and your reputation builds, both through songs and the "paying dues" which are waiting in line at writer's nights to play for three people, making ASCAP, BMI, SESAC and publisher's appointments that fall through, chasing dead ends that don't pan out, doing demos on songs that shouldn't be demoed. and mostly getting shot down.
As you reach the 5-6 year mark, many of the people you have interacted and written with, advance themselves, getting cuts, becoming artists, getting single song and publishing deals, advancing just like anyone working their way up through a company. Some advance faster in ways but almost all go through the exact same thing.
There is always a "top dog" on the pyramid who get several cuts in a row, since everyone wants the latest thing. So producers, publishers, record labels, other co-writers, etc. seek them out to get material. Each of their runs last about 3 years.
In the early 2000's, one of the top dog with a run of hits was Mark D.Sanders. In an interview they asked him what he was doing differently than before he got so many cuts. He answered, "My friends just got in better positions to make decisions."
The main movers and shakers in the industry from top to bottom right now, moved to town in the late 80's-90's. The artist's that are still here from that era, Alan Jackson, George Straight, Reba, Vince Gill, Ronnie Dunn, the writers, Tony Arata, Gary Burr, Sanders, Pat Alger, etc. are on the cusp of being gone for a few years, although they are still in the game. They have been supplanted by the Jeffery Steele's, Craig Wiseman's, etc. The artists are replaced by the Taylor Swift's Rascal Flatts and others.
The guard changes but the process is exactly the same and the town is designed that way. The Music Row are, which is where the business is located is a 15 block square area of small and medium sized houses, interspaced with large corporate buildings, housing Sony, Warner's EMI, etc. It was designed that way to keep a close knit family of writers, publishers, artists, promotional people, labels, agents, studios,managers, design companies, attornies, etc. That way everyone knows frankly everyone else.
Nashville is the art of the hang, and the art of the referall.
When someone develops a belief in your material, trusts and knows your personality, they begin to suggest you to others, co-writes, publishers, friends and friends of friends.
That is the music business in Nashville. The studios likewise interact with the same musicians playing on much of the records. Not a perfect system but one we like and the most accessable. Everyone there was a nobody not long ago, and after a short run will go back to being a nobody.
It's the way of things.
MAB
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Ande Rasmus sen
Ande R a s m u s s e n@aol.com
Ande R a s m u s s e n.com
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MySpace.com/anders
Texas Grammy Gov 06-08
grammy.com/Texas
Editor Of "Inspirations for Songwriters"
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Ande, this gave me a chance again to listen to "Eventually" on my son's new speakers. I'm frustrated that the world hasn't heard this song on the radio. Right now in it's demo stage w/Dave Brooks as the vocalist it is a radio ready, commercially capable, hit or atleast high chart topper. I love this. Dave Brooks could sing the phone book and make it sound good but this song has the right lyrics, the right melody, and Dave just gives it what it deserves. I am partial to singers who sing with passion and Dave is a classic example. I commend you and your cowriters for a great song that is being missed and I can't for the life of me figure out why!!!!! My 18 yr old son is listening and he agrees it should be on the radio. What publisher wouldn't snatch this right up!!!!! Venting in Pennsylvania,  Lynn
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Lynn, I couldn't agree more. I love "Eventually." And this production of it is just perfect...it captures the emotion of the song with a light arrangement and exquisite vocals. I first heard it several years ago when I got back into songwriting, before I found JPF, after listening to a lot of amateur songs that were, well, products of people starting to learn the craft (like me!) Then I came across "Eventually" and I was like, oh, this is an unsigned song? What? I was very surprised that a song that good was not on the radio. I still am.
Mark
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Just listened to "Eventually." Absolutely beautiful song. Love it  Well, another example of a great song waiting for the justice to happen. I'm sure it will though Nadia
Nadia
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poppycock I say. It's a hit waiting to happen!!!
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Helping Hand
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Helping Hand
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Marc, while I consider your advice and Dunbar's advice invaluable...what I'm getting from you is that if you don't "hang out" in Nashville, you can't pitch your songs? If you don't live in Nashville, you have no chance? I consider Nashville a very important "music hub" of the Midwest, if not the entire nation, so this is very discouraging. If Nashville is that overwhelmed...they NEED MORE PUBLISHERS AND RESOURCES!
Some folks don't have the option to pack up and move to Nashville and live their dream, or die trying. Yet, they still have great music to offer. Nashville needs to be more accomodating, in my opionion! That may sound ridiculous, but hey, while I love Taylor Swift, I'd also love some of the talent from this site to be heard to....really WORTHY talent...and maybe the rest of the nation, and WORLD, feel that way. So maybe Nashville business folks need to take that into consideration. It's just one town...not EVERYBODY can relocate and hang out there. That's unrealistic. Don't they want to hear what else is going on out there?
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Don't they want to hear what else is going on out there? I spent yesterday at a songwriters' workshop with four successful hit writing Nashville Songbirds (Lorna Flowers, Bridgette Tatum, Kirsti Manna and Julie Forester). Their words of wisdom were much the same as Marc's. In fact Lorna is from England and relocated to Nashville to further her country writing career. Somebody mentioned that one A & R person for a major label had a stack of CDs in her office from floor to ceiling that were submissions received just in January. So they don't have to go looking for songs.....they are already overwhelmed with stuff that just shows up. They did differ with Marc a bit in that they felt a guitar/vocal or piano/vocal was adequate to demo a song at least in the early stages. In fact they said that is the trend. Lorna has a production company that offers G/V demos for $175 and full band demos for $600, just as a point of reference. One guy in the workshop had been quoted $1500 for full band demos and they chuckled at that. I also noted that even though these women had all written hit songs, they all are involved in other music related businesses to earn their living. None sustain themselves just by writing songs. By the way, I had two of my songs critiqued by them and it was pretty humbling!
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Polly,
You are always looking at things from your own personal perspective. You have got to look at them from the other side. imagine what you do for a living. How long you have worked at it, to build your skills, how hard you have worked, making sacrifices for your kids, your own life. And how hard you have to work all the time just to stay there. Now imagine someone saying to you, "I hate my job, I want to do what you do, but I don't want to do the same things, I don't want to work as hard, I don't want to move, I want you to accomodate me, give me your money, your contacts. " Now how would you feel?
You are competeing with us. All those guys you met, Danny Wells, Chris Wallin, David Lee, Wynne Varble, etc. you are trying for THEIR jobs. You are competing with me. Why am I supposed to roll over to accomodate you? Life doesn't work that way. I have to do those demos, write those songs, make those contacts, work with artists, every day. I actually piss a lot of those people off because I do sites like this because they feel you should have to earn it your own way they way they did.
People on the outside are saying "I really want to catch the big fish but I don't own a boat, fishing tackle, or live near a lake. But I do want to catch those fish.
Collin, I am glad you got to work with those girls. They are all very good and at one time or another all have come to me for advice. Lorna was having to move back to England and sat down with me for a consult to ask if she should stick it out. I said yes and she got a deal right after that. That deal ended not long after that and she did have to go back to Britian for a while where she owns a house. but did come back. When she had breast cancer two years ago, this entire town came together to help her out. We did tons of benefits and every day I look at an autographed guitar my girlfriend bid on with a silent auction for her.
Julie Forrester was my song plugger for a while. She worked for Sharp Objects. I met Kirstie Manna right after she moved to town and heard she was about to write with a friend of mine David Kent.The first song they wrote was "Austin", Blake Shelton's first number one. That came from a message on another friend of mine's Ash Underwood's answering machine. I don't know Brigette that well but she and Kristi are actually the only one's with hit songs.
We actually don't differ on the guitar vocal/full demos. I think you should get good guitar or piano vocals on everthing you do as a first step and getting feedback, talking to publishers, etc. I talk about when you are actually pitching to artists, producers, the industry, the end result on a pitch, you better have competitive full demos because your competition does.
One thing that I found out about hit writers from the beginning of my run in this town. First of all there are never more than about 50 people that actually make a total living from writing songs. and the majority of those are the artists. There are about 25 of the actual writers, Steele, Wiseman, Dipero, Rutherford, Berg, Neil Thrasher, Brett James, Brett Jones, Wynne Varble, Chris Wallin, Tony Lane, Danny Wells, and about 10 more that actually get enough cuts to maintain a career by writing alone. Staff deals rarely pay enough for a living, about $125-$250 a week until you actually have some success.
Almost everyone have other careers. They invest in real estate, have studios, run publishing companies, production companies,development companies, are producers themselves, (if you are Jeffery Steele and you write the songs, produce the acts, and have a cut of their product, you make ALL the money) and of course, many like myself, Lorna,Barbara Cloyd, Jason Blume, Rand Bishop, are teachers. And even if they get hot and have a lot of cuts, they continue those businesses. They are just able to put more money into them, sign more writers. Again, you are in competition with them everytime you try to play them anything.
So are the powers that be inclusive? Yes, but not to those who don't do the same thing they have to do. i have told you the story of Julie Moriva, who has a deal with Big Machine. She is staying in Green Bay and making trips.That is why I say you "don't have to be "PRESENT to WIN" but have to have a "PRESENCE" to win. That is at least making trips and developing relationships. Yes, Polly you can pitch songs from somewhere else. but no one has to listen to them and with 48,000 writers in town, 310 staff deals and less than 3,600 people employed by the ENTIRE music industry, you are competing with all of them. And there are less than about 300 actual singles released per year out of about 250,000 songs written, demoed and produced. Those are on major labels or independent labels with major distribution.
Songs take longer on the charts and radio plays less songs. So only about 200 are going to achieve any significant airplay a year. BMI and ASCAP monitor 200 songs a year. That is it. So there are less opportunities for songs. Period.
The things you can do is write and promote people in YOUR area who might be shooting for a career in Nashville. Get with up and coming artists, promote your own My Space and Facebook sites. Promote with every person you come into contact with. Polly, you should be out there performing other people's material and writing with the people you are relating to here and other places. There is a GREAT NSAI group in your neighborhood. Have you contacted them? If you want to perform on next year's Taste of Clermont festival with all the hit writers, now is the time to start working toward that. You should be working with Bob Cummings. Hell, take all my songs. I'm not using them.
I never tell ANYONE what they should or should not do. I tell them what they have to do if they want to interact with the industry here. I tell you all what the real people that are involved in this business have to do. If you want to make inroads you have to do the same thing. This has not changed since 1955 when Nashville started as a recording center.
If you go to New York, LA, Toronto, Scotland, England, etc. you will have to find the rules they go though.
But understand, you are COMPETEING with all the same people. That doesn't change. You have to decide how much you are up for the task.
MAB
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I agree with Polly. I think Marc has scored an own goal here. I think the problem is that the "in crowd" from Nashville are always looking at things from THEIR own perspective. If their set up and music is so above the standard of everyone else what have they to fear from outside competition that they have to close ranks so much and be so insular and nepotistic? I thought that the free market system of conservatism that they hold so dear allowed fair competition for all.
How can the cream rise to the top when only diluted, processed milk from one cow is allowed into the churn?
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Jim,
I think the point is that access to record deals, radio promotion, record labels, etc. etc. is all controlled by people in power in Nashville. In order to play the game, at least in country music, you have to win the favor of these people. What Marc is describing is the formula to do that.
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I understand it Colin just do not agree with it.
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Marc, I'm so glad you said this. People don't have to like that this is the way it is. Most people don't like it because it's the big tough world and it's not easy. But people who say they don't agree with what you say are, IMHO, living in denial. Jim Allison said it best: "If you're here it's almost impossible. If you're not here it really IS impossible." But 'here' doesn't have to mean living next door to BMI. It means, as you say, having a presence. It's also about being connected. Cristy Jackson (Reba's Why Haven't I heard From You) lives out of state and she's better connected than most of the people I know who live here. I know people who come here 4x/year and they're doing it. I think living here can actually work against ya. It's easy to get discouraged and give up when you're here. We hear about all the people coming here but rarely do we hear about all those that leave. It's also easy to start thinking it's about something other than great music. Of course its ALSO about things other than great music...but great music has been, currently is, and will always be the lowest common denominator to success in the music business. People on this forum will argue with me about that til the cows come home but if I didn't believe that with all my heart I'd have given up long ago. Nobody's snubbing anyone here. There's nothing any publisher in this town would like more than for some stranger to walk in off the street with the next George Strait #1. I tell people there's no better strategy in making it as a songwriter than writing a hit song. ;>) Bill Renfrew www.writethismusic.com
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They did differ with Marc a bit in that they felt a guitar/vocal or piano/vocal was adequate to demo a song at least in the early stages. In fact they said that is the trend. Lorna has a production company that offers G/V demos for $175 and full band demos for $600, just as a point of reference. One guy in the workshop had been quoted $1500 for full band demos and they chuckled at that. See what happens with demo's and recording is everyone clumps everything together so it forces everyone to adjust. Yes $1,500 is a lot for a demo but is it really? Actually you need to ask - What am I getting, I mean wouldn't you think to ask if your getting something that is broadcast quality? Maybe they needed to be more clear. $600 is good. However... many people think what they get for $200 $600 %1,000 is all the same as far as time & work goes. And it shouldn't be the same. This approach forces those who do $1,200 + work to have to drop there prices very very low. Take your song and you to a local studio with $500 or $600 in your pocket and see how far you get. See people think demos online, so first you get the programmed drum beats, then it's midi this and that with a bit of live guitar over the top and vocals. No extra producing of the song. All on a computer in a bedroom just like you have. So you need to realize how creative someone is getting with your material and what they are doing with it. Songwriters go to a studio to learn, if need be. Often you'll get block rate offers like this 10 hrs - $500 with You and the engineer. If you want live players you either have to bring em or hire them. They still have to learn the song either way this all takes TIME. Drummer - $100 Guitars - $100 Bass - $100 Keys - $100 Lead Vocals $100 Backing Vocals $100 10 hour Block time is $500 that's $50 an hour Recording,Mixing/editing/ mastering in 10 hours (NOTHING) you can talk or argue for four hours lol. Total - $1,100 * And that's if you get all the recording, editing mixing and mastering done in 10 hours. Good luck with that. Now even if you lower your players rates that means get more desperate players lol Drummer $50 Guitars $50 Bass $50 Keys $50 Singer $50 Backing Vox $50 Total $300 plus 10 hours studio at $50 an hour $500 Total $800.00Ever hear some $200 demos? It often sounds like a Casio playing background music with you lyrics to it. That is fine but know that ahead of time, do not mix up having one guy program all your stuff with bringing in 5or six live players. Some places use the "assembly line" system. They have too, this is the only way they can get live players all at the same day at the same time to work for less money. Do MORE songs in one day. This makes it worth it for them to put a full day in. And still the one running the session has so much editing or scrubbing to do. Also he may or may not master it for you. Then on top of all this so many good singers want $200 to sing, so how you gonna do great demo's or recordings cheap? You must really plan and think about what your goals are situation is and then how to approach your music and investment.
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In my area Edinburgh there are about a dozen or so pro studios. They charge on average £30 per hour for recording with an engineer. It can take a couple of hours to record vocals and then these have to be mixed. The same applies for every other part and that does not include payment for the player. The cost of making a recording soon mounts up. It can cost upwards of several hundred for a simple track to be recorded.
I cringe to think what a $200 demo will sound like if USA rates are comparable. Most players in my area will want around £70 minimum just to play a part. Studios with a reputation to keep will not put out rubbish so while they keep up standards the clock ticks.
Drums, bass, guitar, vocals, piano, is 5x£70...£350and then the cost of recording mixing and mastering. £1500 for a decent demo is not a lot to pay when put like that.
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