JPF Home Page Forums Musician Gear and Techniques Recording Studio and Gear Forum Going into the red

When recording, is it ok to go into the red zone for a split second?

On a digital meter?
Generally as long as you don't hit the top (0dBfs) you're okay.
Sometimes you may even hit digital clip on a very short transient and get away with it. Your ears are the judge, really.

Really, there's no good reason to record hot in digital, especially in 24 bit. I usually set my levels so the peaks don't get above minus 6dBfs. I can always boost the level in software later.

I hope I understood the question.

Everett It is red for a reason DANGER. It is easy to turn levels down a tad so that you do not "clip" or go into the red....the end results will sound so much better and have less distortion and harshness. The same rule applies to amplifiers and mixers etc too. Do not go into the red or allow the clip light to come on. RED IS BAD

Another reason for not going into red, is that you want to leave some headroom for the mastering process.

You can have a single track here and there touching the red (especially if you want some disturbing pop vocals or a very warm tube sound on something), but on the master you want at least 3db headroom to work with in mastering.

That gives the best results.

Ahh, I never worry about it. Heat it up man! More juice!!! They always say "red" meat is tastier.

Only kidding. I've been reading some good threads on this subject. I'll be following this one as well.

Some of my tracks get rather hot. Now the problem is; I don't hear it on this end. I do hear a loud track, but not the distortion. Some hear it, some don't. So I imagine it's too close for comfort.

I do believe before the mastering process, the levels are more than safe. But afterwards - yes, a little hot.

The exciter, limiter, global reverb, etc. does add an extra boost of excitement that I'd hate to leave out. However, the question is, how far do I turn up the heat. I really don’t want to burn anyone.

I'll keep reading and learning the art of mastering until I can come up with a workable mastering technique I can use for all my projects. It is an art.

Best, John

Hi John there is a process called normalise where everything is raised and set to a max of 0db.....if levels are already on or above that 0db level how can you normalise or add any other process and avoid going over (clipping). I have said before that sometimes you do record a little too hot......I would suggest trying to leave a lot of headroom then once everything is done you can take it up to 0db to get a hot mix without distortion or clipping. I do not know what kind of monitors you use but sometimes quality monitors lead us into a false sense of security beacuase they sound great even with a bit of clipping and distorton etc. It is only when the piece is played on other equipment and speakers that these too hot a mix probs come to light.

I believe going into the red in digital usually gives a burst of static much like a scratch on a vynil record. And once it's there it probably can't be removed except by re-recording the sound. With Audio Tape going to the red was about 3 percent distortion not really audiable. With digital the distortion is about as loud as the assoicated music so you hear it loud and clear, er distorted.

So you make a nickel with digital and lose a nickel with digital.

I remember all the hassles with tape...not to mention the expense...the cost of a blank master tape was prohibitive ...and that was before you even started with hiring studios and musicians cause in those days if you wanted a trumpet you had to hire one. Going into the red digitally causes non removable noise.....Small price to pay for any minuses digitally. Clever people do not go into the red so do not create the prob.

I have a number of demos, some recorded fairly low and some fairly hot, I'm trying to bring up the over all sound to be fairly equal on all songs, so when I put them on a CD to send them to someone, they won't have to turn them up or down. I try to get them close to 0 without going into the red, even for a second, but some songs have high spots that go into the red, just for a second, I can't hear any distortion on these small speakers but I'm not sure if I trust my ears or not. LOL

Everett when you import tracks into the CD burner to be burned you can normalise them to 0db so all tracks sound recorded at same level. Some burning programs offer this feature....not sure if the program you use has this function. You may remember some while back me spouting off about Nero being an all singing and dancing multi media progam well this is one thing it does automatically if you tick the box marked normalise before burning. Maybe about time you invested a few bucks...it is on ebay for under 10$ and does loads more than playing CDs/DVDs, burning, photo editing etc etc, and creating great CD covers. But worth checking if the burner you use has a normalise feature.

Failing that as a labourious task you could import individual tracks into Audacity select all and then go to effect then hit normalise 0db that would work.

John, try reading the mastering pdf from Izotope. It's for their product, but you can easily think the same way and make it work using other products.

It's just a great guide.

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/guides.html

My CD Recorder Sony RCD-W500C/W100 has a Volume Control just like any other Recording Device so you can monitor the sound before you record onto CD. You may have to listen to a bit of what you are recording to see if you are too high and have to reduce or raise the level a bit. An occasional blip into the red won't hurt when sending out songs but would probably be un acceptable with a Commerical Release. I suspect most Commerical Tape Machines have been replaced with Digital Recorders BUT you still have to listen and adjust the levels to prevent distortion because Digital is un forgiving as Tape was.

Would it not be better recording direct into a PC using a music production program? Audacity is free and would get far better results. You can record multi tracks for each song plus edit each track post record to produce a far better controllable quality. A simple PC recording will produce infinitely better recordings than direct onto CD....with all due respect that is pretty outdated and a bit of a hit or a miss for quality. I would have more to fear than just a bit of clipping trying to record and mix music that way.

I am only a songwriter Jim. And when I got into Digital I wanted a Stand Alone Recorder. I first (Still) use a cassette recorder to record my Guitar Vocals then copy them onto CD and make copies to send out from there. I don't need 40 tracks to make a basic demo.

I'm sure it is a lot cheaper to make a commerical CD with computer music but ya know, it is beginning to all sound the same! It was 100 percent better when the Artist went into the Studio with Real Musicians and Recorded live. No wonder no one is making any money in music today!

I downloaded some of my songs into my computer and then tried recording them onto CD with the computer. They recorded Ok but would not play back in a CD player. Bummer.

Songwriters nowadays should use every tool available and most do pro sounding demos on a PC using the available digital technology. It is not expensive and basics are easy to learn.....give it a try you wil not be disapointed. What you are using I would consider more a hindrance than a help. I wish this technology was available forty years ago.

I will check that out Magne. I'm experimenting with different limiter settings. I'll be reposting some tracks later this week. My latest track, which was a remake of "When Love Was Really Love", I didn't use the exciter or limiter on it.

John

Everett, you might not notice those red spikes on your home speakers, but if it was recorded that way, it's there...so don't send those to any serious business contacts like publishers. It might be more noticeable to them on their systems.

To a studio producer, any red is a no no. The 0Db rule is sort of standard from what I understand. The question is why would you want it that close to redline. If it's just to hear it for your own playback, adjust the headphone dial, not the master gain IN, or even a track gain. Mark mentions that your recording might sound different on a more sensitive system. Amen to that. I learned the hard way (twice)to keep levels in the zone. Both times, sounded ok in my studio, but at the production house, yuck-all sorts of distortion. Doing re-tracks is no fun when you think you already nailed it.

Paul Ryan
www.ryantunes.com

Agree with Paul: turn up your monitors, not the mix!

Remember that 0db analogue is not necessarily 0db digital in the channel faders on your DAW. 0db on DAW channels is often really -12db to -18db, to mimic the extra headroom you'd get from an analogue system. But remember, that's for the fader channels, not the master buss.

So you can probably go into the red in the individual faders (I do, all the time!), but your master output can't go over 0db or you'll start hearing the clipping/distortion. Sometimes you won't even hear the clipping until you render it down to a final stereo mix.

Thanks guys, good advice.

Hey guys, to tack on to this thread,

I'm setting up shop at church to record the Steinway there and my vocals where I have a natural nice reverb room sound. Just getting my studio up and running again and this time using my Sony VAIO laptop, not the Mac with GBand.

I understand about not going into the red - but I'm having some popping (even on lower volumes) that sounds like clipping and I'm not going into the red at the loudest. But distortion is there.

I'm at most in the "dark green" zone before the red.

What do I need to set my gain/level at?

I'm concerned that setting it too low will pull in room "hiss."

What's worse??
(popping, I think)

Any ideas for me?

Thanks!!

Linda

Hard to say. Are you using a separate microphone preamp ahead of your sound card? Something may be clipping the signal BEFORE it gets into the computer.
Can you describe your gear setup?
Must have more data

Linda..... setting gains to low will not pull in hiss it is usually the other way around....hiss generally comes with gains set too high.
There are normally four possible things that can go wrong with any sound gear. Sorting the prob is a process of elimination.

Equipment failure
Wrong connection
Wrong settings
Bad placememnt.

Let us assume that your equipment is not faulty but it does not do any harm checking that you have a good signal and that leads and connectors are not faulty.

Sometimes things do not work properly if they are plugged up or connected wrong so check all ins and outs and switches and settings to ensure they are connected and connected properly.
I remember once one guy had leads going to ins when they should have gone to outs. (me lol)

Gains and levels have to be at optimum settings. This usually means tweaking to find the best. Use your ears and the level meters to determine. This may take a few different trial settings and much tweaking to achieve.

Mic placement is crucial as singing too close or too far away from mic is often the main cause of poor sound capture. Too close usually increases distortian and causes pops etc. Too far away sounds distant, weak across the spectrum and picks up more ambient or background noise.

Green (not too near the red) is good red is bad but ears are the best tool and level meter.

Once you have set up and found the best levels you will find that the settings in the future will usually be pretty similar with just minor tweaks necessary. For easier setup in the future I tend to leave knobs etc where they are rather than zeroing everything at takedown

Linda, room hiss is a drawback in untreated rooms. You can work with your room to make it better for recording, but you can also eliminate the hiss with a soft gate, or use an expander plug-in.

You don't need to worry about your levels too much when recording on a computer, as you can boost the track with compression/ limiting. So the only rule is that the level never gets in the red. That you won't be able to undo later.

As for 'popping' goes. I assume you are using a standard home computer for your recording? You need to set that up properly for recording. This means turning Windows' background services off, and get off the internet (and make sure the computer is not looking to hook up to it) while recording.

I have found that even after having the levels at zero db, once I used the mastering software, the levels were way too hot, so I would recommend staying well out of the red. It's easy to boost the signal with software, but impossible to get rid of clipping.