JPF Home Page Forums Fla. man says Home Depot fired him over God button

this country is going too far when this happens! I hope his lawyer breaks the bank of home depot!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091028/ap_on_bi_ge/us_god_button_home_depot

By BRIAN SKOLOFF, Associated Press Writer Brian Skoloff, Associated Press Writer – Wed Oct 28, 8:35 am ET

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. – A former cashier for The Home Depot who has been wearing a "One nation under God" button on his work apron for more than a year has been fired, he says because of the religious reference. The company claims that expressing such personal beliefs is simply not allowed.

"I've worn it for well over a year and I support my country and God," Trevor Keezor said Tuesday. "I was just doing what I think every American should do, just love my country."

The American flag button Keezer wore in the Florida store since March 2008 says "One nation under God, indivisible."

Earlier this month, he began bringing a Bible to read during his lunch break at the store in the rural town of Okeechobee, about 140 miles north of Miami. That's when he says The Home Depot management told him he would have to remove the button.

Keezer refused, and he was fired on Oct. 23, he said.

"It feels kind of like a punishment, like I was punished for just loving my country," Keezer said.

A Home Depot spokesman said Keezer was fired because he violated the company's dress code.

"This associate chose to wear a button that expressed his religious beliefs. The issue is not whether or not we agree with the message on the button," Craig Fishel said. "That's not our place to say, which is exactly why we have a blanket policy, which is long-standing and well-communicated to our associates, that only company-provided pins and badges can be worn on our aprons."

Fishel said Keezer was offered a company-approved pin that said, "United We Stand," but he declined.

Keezer's lawyer, Kara Skorupa, said she planned to sue the Atlanta-based company.

"There are federal and state laws that protect against religious discrimination," Skorupa said. "It's not like he was out in the aisles preaching to people."

Keezer said he was working at the store to earn money for college, and wore the button to support his country and his 27-year-old brother, who is in the National Guard and is set to report in December for a second tour of duty in Iraq.

Skorupa noted the slogan on Keezer's pin is straight from the Pledge of Allegiance.

"These mottos and sayings that involve God, that's part of our country and historical fabric," Skorupa said. "In God we trust is on our money."

Michael Masinter, a civil rights and employment law professor at NOVA Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale, said any lawsuit over religious discrimination might be a tough one to win.

"Because it's a private business, not one that's owned and operated by the government, it doesn't have to operate under the free speech provisions of the First Amendment," Masinter said.

"But we're not talking about religious displays here," he said. "This sounds more like a political message ... Wearing a button of that sort would not easily be described as a traditional form of religious expression like wearing a cross or wearing a yarmulke."

Gary
The first amendment and our Constitution can be a double edged sword. It gives the individual the right to free speech, it provides for the separation of church and state, and it gives private companies the right to set rules in the work place.
Those three things can certainly be at odds with each other.

This sounds like a little more than wearing a button. Bringing a bible to work? I'd be willing to bet there is more to the story.

Would you have posted this if the man was wearing a "Praise be to Allah" pin or one that said "assalamu alaikum". How about bringing the Koran to work and reading it during lunch? How about the prayer rug?

I think we have to be very careful with this stuff.

But Jim,

Our money doesn't say "In Allah We Trust". It is also a part of our Pledge Of Allegiance. As far as the Bible, anyone should be able to read what they want on their lunch break. And no, I would not object to someone reading the Koran, or any other religous book. I think, once they set a precedent by letting him wear it for a year, they should have let it go. If he was preaching to people, that is a whole different matter. We will learn more as this plays out. I will form my judgement then.

Big Jim????
OMG!!!!! am I starting to sound like Big Jim? God help me. Or Allah, how about Buddha or one of them other guys.

John
I wasn't defending either position. I was trying to point out that Private companies have the right to set whatever rules for the work place they want, in this regard. The Government should have no say in the matter.
It sounds to me like the guy was starting to push the limits and went to far.
If the lunch break is in the company cafeteria or on company property I think they should have a say in what activity goes on in there. Was he simply reading or was there more to it?
Our schools forbid any kind of religious symbolism so do all public government buildings. Separation of Church and state. But it does not apply in private companies. But Private companies can set policies. Either you follow them or leave.
The Argument that our Money doesn't say "In Allah We Trust" or the quote is from the Pledge of Allegiance has nothing to do with it. The Company in question has no control over that.
Are you suggesting it wold be OK to wear a pin that says "In God We Trust" but it would not be OK to wear a pin that said "In Allah We Trust"?

I think we have to be very careful when we start trying to control religious beliefs. By that I mean you cannot put restrictions on one and not all. Our basic rights in this country are our freedoms. That means freedom for the worker but also the company that hires the worker.

Had this been a story about a Muslim I don't think Gary would have posted it. It would not fit his agenda. I am not saying that is a bad thing, just that it is. Gary is a very Patriotic person and a staunch defender of this country and our constitution and I applaud him for that but we have to be careful with this sort of thing.

The Irony here is I am NOT a believer. But I will defend our constitution and our laws. It must be fair for everyone. I don't consider myself an Atheist and I don't support their ideals either.

here's the whole problem with it, he wore the button for over a year without anyone saying anything about it.I betcha the store doesn't have any problem with accepting money with the word GOD written on it.

Well,
There is a time and a place for everything. If you want get a dose of Religion you have 4011 places you can go. If you want a gallon of paint or some garden tools there are 4011 places you can go. And never the twain shall meet.

There are always some that don't get the word and think you need instruction. To me Organized Religion should be about the dead burying the dead but many times it is about the Blind leading the Blind.

I personally get offended when I see well meaning but misguided attempts at pushing religion at me. I suspect this person was doing just that. Anybody seen a Jehova witness lately?

our whole nation was founded on and around God fearing people and there can be no separation from it and I object to your referral of the blind leading the blind, to have faith is trusting in a life after death there's nobody forcing God on anyone, he don't want you to be forced that's a choice we get to make, if those who don't want him they can choose whatever.I won't say anymore about it because I made a choice long time ago and I sleep very well knowing my death just won't be about a box, worms and dirt.

Actually no. Our Nation was founded to escape from Religious Persocution. For more on that you would have to do a lot of research a lot of which is probably posted on the Net.

please read the following:link is attached also, does this explain it better?

Recently, many authors have debated whether or not the United States of America was founded as a Christian nation. I wish to provide a few historical quotes from our Founding Era that lend credence to the supposition that we indeed were founded as a Christian nation.

Granted, God is not mentioned in the Constitution, but He is mentioned in every major document leading up to the final wording of the Constitution. For example, Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…"

Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.

Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "...God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

Later, John Quincy Adams answered the question as to why, next to Christmas, was the Fourth of July this most joyous and venerated day in the United States. He answered: "...Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" Sounds like the founding of a Christian nation to me. John Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an "indissoluble" bond. The Founding Fathers understood that religion was inextricably part of our nation and government. The practice of the Christian religion in our government was not only welcomed but encouraged.

The intent of the First Amendment was well understood during the founding of our country. The First Amendment was not to keep religion out of government. It was to keep Government from establishing a 'National Denomination" (like the Church of England). As early as 1799 a court declared: "By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing." Even in the letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Baptists of Danbury Connecticut (from which we derive the term "separation of Church and State") he made it quite clear that the wall of separation was to insure that Government would never interfere with religious activities because religious freedom came from God, not from Government.

Even George Washington who certainly knew the intent of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, since he presided over their formation, said in his "Farewell Address": "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars." Sure doesn't sound like Washington was trying to separate religion and politics.

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Still sounds like the Founding Fathers knew this was a Christian nation.

This view, that we were a Christian nation, was hold for almost 150 years until the Everson v. Board of Education ruling in 1947. Before that momentous ruling, even the Supreme Court knew that we were a Christian nation. In 1892 the Court stated:

"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people...This is a Christian nation." There it is again! From the Supreme Court of the United States. This court went on to cite 87 precedents (prior actions, words, and rulings) to conclude that this was a "Christian nation".

In 1854, the House Judiciary Committee said: "in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.'

It should be noted here that even as late as 1958 a dissenting judge warned in Baer v. Kolmorgen that if the court did not stop talking about the "separation of Church and State", people were going to start thinking it was part of the Constitution.

It has been demonstrated in their own words: Ben Franklin, George Washington and John Adams, to the House of Representatives and the Supreme Court, how our founding fathers felt about the mix of politics and religion.

When we read articles such as "What's God got to do with it?" (Primack, 5/4) and "The wall between state and church must not be breached" (Tager, 5/7) it just reaffirms how little, even intelligent people, understand about the founding of our great Republic. To say that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation or that the Constitution was not founded on Christian principles is totally at odds with the facts of history.

Tex Browning

http://www.afn.org/~govern/Christian_Nation.html

Gary,
No need to make a Mountain out of a Mohill. We are discussing if this person needs to conform to a companies policy to stay employed. No need to argue if we are a Christian Nation or not. There are people of other faiths here such as the Chinese.

Many argue there is no seperation between Church and State. We do not have a state religion. The Constitution says something to the effect that the congress shall pass no law respecting the practice of religion nor prevent the practice thereof. Whew! God didn't have to decide that! Lucky him!

There are plenty of good people that have never stepped inside a church or ever will. The Jury is still out on Organized Religion. But you have the freedom to practice whatever you believe of which is guranteed by the Constution. But you don't have the right to impose it on me. I suspect that was what this young man was trying to do. Maybe it comes down to that old saying, WHEN IN ROME DO AS THE ROMANS DO. Maybe this young man will become a Preacher.

we agree for the sake of this country I hope he does get involved in theology

Hi Bill,

I'm sorry for the confusion on names. There is something called implied consent. If he was allowed to wear this pin for as long as they say, and the policy was the same, I believe he had "Implied consent" to wear it. If he was trying to preach to people that is something else. If someone was allowed to wear a pin that said "In Allah I trust" for a year I would stand up for his rights too.

Gary
The store has no say so in what it says on the money they receive.

They do have the right to say what you can and cannot wear on your person when you are working.
The fact that the pin referred to God is irrelevant. It could have been a smiley face pin and if they decided you could no longer wear a smiley face pin that is the company's right to do so.

It doesn't matter if he wore the pin for ten years if they decided no more pins that is their right. If the guy refused to quit wearing it they had the right to fire him.
I really doubt he wasn't warned numerous times before he was axed.

Just give it time John. . . Obama will do it to kiss someone's ass.

Easyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy there..

With over 51,000 JPF members from all around the world, I wonder how many of them are Muslim, and I wonder how these comments make them feel.

I don't have anything against Muslims in general, just the radical Muslims. And most of the non-radicals feel the same way we do about the ones who are radicals. I'm not sure who that was directed at but I don't think I said anything overtly offensive.

Unless Obama is reading this . . . And in that case I have a lot more to say.

I have no idea what the circumstances are in this guy's firing. He might have been a pain in the butt, as even (shock, shock) many of my Christian brothers and sisters sometimes are. The question is simply, if it gets to a court trial, will it be found that he was fired because of religion. If that's the case, he will win.

I'm a Christian. Let me tell you a story.

A few years ago, I was rehearsing at a Nashville rehearsal studio. This place is like a warehouse with a half dozen or so sound stages on which a band or show can rehearse. On any given day there will be a variety of acts and shows, anywhere from major label artists to private corporation "convention" shows, that will be rehearsing. In the cafeteria, there is a bulletin board where musicians, sound and light techs, and so-on, place their business cards. There were no thumbtacks available, so, it being a five day rehearsal, on the next day I brought a green thumbtack and put my card up. It was the only green thumbtack. On the following day, to my surprise, my card was gone. In it's place, using a green thumbtack, was another business card. It read: "JESUS (in large print) is what is important. I am only a pedal steel player..." then it went on to give this guy's name and phone number. I got another one of my cards, and used the green thumbtack to put it over the other guy's card in such a way that "JESUS" was visible, but nothing else.

Now, I believe Jesus is more important than any music ever played or written, but that's not, in my opinion, what this pedal steel player was probably trying to communicate. I would guess he was most likely promoting himself and using his religion as a sales tool. If, indeed, he took my thumbtack...unless someone else took my card down and put back the thumbtack, or unless both my card and thumback fell off and this guy happened to bring a green thumbtack with him...then he was being a pain in the butt. What I did was not stepping on his beliefs.

Just because someone's lawyer sends out press releases doesn't mean that's the whole story.

It is true, however, that Christianity is currently under attack. It is fair game for comedians and social commentators alike. Much of this, of course, is a backlash against folks like my pain-in-the-butt steel player friend who have, for years, wrongly used Christianity as an excuse for everything from advantage in business to stealing land to out and out murder. But acting badly or unfairly is not a proper remedy to acting badly or unfairly. It only perpetuates bad and/or unfair action.

I really can't say I think he was fired for his religion, I think the corporate part of Home Depot knows very well that would have been shooting themselves in the foot.

There absolutely has to be more going on. I think everyone has a right to choose their own religion, but on the same account there are people that are offended by the words "God or Jesus" and so on. So as a place of business they need their customers. If an atheist walked through there and saw the God pin maybe he would be inclined to head over to say lowes instead where they don't where god pins. So that's one customer's business they lost but then he goes back and tells all of his atheist colleagues about it so that potential business lost and so on. Word of mouth is a crazy thing.

I know in the Bible it says "Go forth and preach my name" and I very well do believe that someone who is a Christian should. But you can preach to someone without forcing it down their throats, and maybe JUST MAYBE this guy was preaching at their customers.

I believe in freedom of speech and religion, but when you're in a place of business you have to go by their rules. Wait til after work and stand out on the corner off their property with a sign saying God Saves but when you're at work you kind of have to do what you're told or this is the result.

I commend him for not taking the pin off and sticking with his belief. But if he wants to be defiant then they have every right to fire him.

I guess we'll just see how the story unfolds.

LOL
If you ever get to Nashville we have got to meet.

Well Bill I'm planning a trip there so I will let you know when I plan on heading that way. lol

Oh Well,
I remember. Back when I had just entered the Navy I, (You guessed it) ran into one of those Religious types. This guy came up to me and asked me to go to church with him. He asked me what Religion I was. Hell I didn't know, I never went to any church. However I said I maybe was a Presbeterian. We had a church like that where I was from. And wouldn't you know it, he had a little black book in which he must have wrote down all the bad things he found with other religions. I had already cleared up everything about religion by then and didn't really want to go to church with this guy but I thought it would be sinful if I refused.

But, Mike Dunbar, I can tell you, God Loves you, AND I AM TRYING.

Ray, yes, sometimes I do find you to be trying.

Actually Kevin I don't see where anyone said anything bad about Muslims here at all.
I used Allah as an example because it fit. It may have been hyperbole but it would be the best example. I could have said Buddha or any number of other "Gods"

That our money doesn't say "In Allah We Trust" should not offend any Muslim. It also doesn't say "In Buddha We Trust".

The only reason it was brought up was as an example of why we should be very careful with religious restrictions. I was also questioning Gary's motive in posting this. If anyone should take offense it should be Gary.
If anything I probably overstepped my bounds in questioning his motives. He very well may have posted this if the button had said "In Allah We Trust".
For that I apologize Gary.

I wonder if the guy that invented the Smiley Face Button was offended?

I wonder if Walmart won't put Jesus' name on a name tag? Would that be discriminating against minorities who name some of their children "Jesus?"

Oh My!!
That would be a tough one. I used to work with a guy named Jesus. I never thought anything of it because it was pronounced HAYSUSE.

A matter of perception?

Bill, I don't think anyone took offense at your post. I certainly didn't.

I was actually referring to another post, but perhaps after being up for twenty or so hours, I perceived things to be different than intended. That's what I get for allowing myself to be drawn into the political discussions.

For what it's worth, I have no more or no less love for radical fundamentalist Muslims than I do for radical fundamentalist Christians, radical fundamentalist Atheists, or radical fundamentalist Flying Spaghetti Monster worshipers.

Ha! we have something in common.

Man, I just don't get this kind of thing at all.

If I walked into a Home Depot and all the employees suddenly burst into a version of "Onward Christian Soldiers", I might be a little put off.

But one guy wearing a button? Our religion, or lack of it, is as much a part of us as the cut of our hair or the color of our eyes. As long as it's done on an individual basis, rather than organized, what's the harm in letting a little of it out?

It's just common sense - if an employee is wearing a button that says "Praise Jesus" - no problem. If he starts telling people at the check-out that they are going to burn in hell - problem. The manager should deal with each situation appropriately.

If I saw someone wearing a "Praise Allah" button, most likely I'd just continue on because I am focused on buying some 2 x 4's. But if it's a slow day, I'm just as likely to engage him in conversation about his button. If he starts preaching rather than conversing, I find a graceful way out. It's really easy.

I've come to think that many of these things (on both sides) are caused by small people looking for five minutes of fame. "This will put me in the news!" This applies both to the "advertiser" and complainer.

It's all about social skills and seeing people as individuals. If I had some guy working for me and he was simply wearing a button, I'd think "more power to you". If he started telling customers that they were going to burn in hell, I'd fire him. Not because of his religion but because he was in the wrong job.

Then again, I'm no businessman.

Sad it's come to this. But Bill's right - they are a private enterprise and no one is forcing the guy to work there.

Scott

Ya'll stop picking on me cause I am Radical fundamentalist Flying Spaghetti Monster worshiper.

Did you know,
Jehovah Witness won't take any religious material from you but they want to give you theirs. Some have showed up at my door. I usually try to give them some good information verbablly of course.

I don't know why the come as I am already a lost cause but I am trying! And will continue to do so.

Scott Campbell: Libertarian

LOL

do you sit up and worry about them? do you think they sit up and worry about you or comments they make about God?

Well Mike, you've actually made me do something - which was go check out the platform of the Libertarian Party.

I have to admit to being a little surprised - there was much I could agree with. Maybe even most of it.

In particular, their stances on personal relationships, abortion, personal privacy, energy and resources and international affairs were all things I could get behind. As I said, I was even surprised by some of them, such as their refusal to treat gays differently than anyone else.

So maybe I did learn a few things here.

Not sure I can call myself a Libertarian though. There were a few things they support that I just can't wrap my mind around yet.

(1) Repeal the income tax? Not realistic, imo, unless replaced by something else. I didn't see what the "something else" was.

(2) Free Market Banking. Sounds good in theory but the devil is in the details. For instance, what would the Libertarians say about banks that lend money that they don't actually have in deposits?

(3) Education. They say let the parents decide. In all honesty, as elitist as it sounds, I don't think all parents are equipped to do this. That's a decidely un-Libertarian view on my part, I suppose. If it was just a case of individuals being responsible for themselves or their kids, I could get behind it. Unfortunately it doesn't end there though - a bunch of mis-educated kids running around is going to impact MY quality of life - not just theirs.

(4) Health Care - they address the fact that people should have freedom to choose - but don't say what should happen if people can't afford it. Later on, I guess they address it by saying that helping the poor should be done by those who want to and can afford it. Not sure I think there are enough of these people to provide the needed help.

So like most other party platforms, I find much to agree with and a bit to be bothered by. But I grant that I won't immediately file Libertarians under "fringe" groups anymore and will pay attention to what they are saying.

Probably as big a battle as one could expect to win on this forum

Scott

Hi Gary

It sounds like this kid is using the button for the wrong reasons
(to make a buck) He already has a lawyer. Whats that about.

Here's the Fair Tax, Scott. It's not an income tax.

http://www.fairtax.org

Duh - my mistake Mike. I read Fair Tax and thought Flat tax.

Interesting link...

Scott

I am more concerned about the sense of community here at Just Plain Folks. That is why I'm here. I would hate to think that there are others here who may feel like they can't speak out without being attacked because their beliefs may not line up with the vocal majority here. Like Brian says, "We are all in this together."

Doug, I didn't know you were a Pastafarian.

May you be touched by his noodley appendage.

Ramen.

LOL

Many stores won't let their employees say Merry Christmas, for fear of offending someone that is not Christian. What about offending Christians, they don't seem concerned about that. These businesses have no qualms making money off the person(Christ) that they won't honour. How hypocritical.

But you know, all this confirms what Jesus said"When(not if) I return, will find faith" He's coming soon, be ready.

as I read it the kid was expressing to the world that he loves God and nothing else than that, it says nowhere that he was even discussing or talking to anyone about his button that he has wore for over a year and I'll guarantee ya that he will win cause he has the side of right with him(that being God)

Gary I believe in god. Wouldn't God want the kid to forgive the store and move on.

I think that is a catch 22 on how people percieve "what God wants" On one hand you're right he should move on and forgive and so on. On the other hand he might perceive that God wants him to stand up for his beliefs and religion. So it all goes on what you believe in your heart. But like I said earlier there has to be more to it, than just a button.