JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum is it worth it??

is it worth the effort to be your own publisher? I know, contacts are needed, that's part of why it wouldn't be for someone who isn't "where it all happens" wherever that may be...but other than that, can it be done by anyone? and be bennificial?

Caroline,

What are you trying to do? What does "Worth it" mean to you? If it is registering your songs, creating discipline, treating your music like a business, yes, it is worth it. But you have to ask yourself what you are trying to achieve.

If it is pitching songs to a commercial market, you have to ask yourself how many artists, producers, record exectutives high placed people you can sit down with and play songs for. And how much political muscle you can pull together to collect money on songs, when they are placed with a project.

That is what publishers do. Provide access that most people can't get. If you have songs for a certain market where do you go with them?

Publishers work long and hard at learning the ropes of networking, meeting people and paying attention to who is on the rise career wise. And while anyone can study the pitch sheets, very few can actually get the doors open enough to actually get material heard.

A good idea might be to form a publishing company, file with ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, etc. and work on researching newer and up and coming artists to get songs in on the ground floor.

It really is all in your perception of what "worth it is."

MAB

I can tell you my experience and what I learned about this in class.
My friend and the teacher in the class is a well known bluegrass artist. Her name is Donna Hughes
www.donnahughes.com
She is a wonderful singer/songwriter. She is on Rounder Records now, works with Tony Rice, JD Crowe, Alison Kraus, and many other big names in the music biz.
She had one publishing company work with her in the past. She was somewhat disapponted in their not pitching for her as promised. She represents herself now, with her own publishing company, home based and has done quite well. It is not easy to do it yourself and it depends on how much time you have, contacts, etc. She said something like...
on a cd sell if you publish it yourself you make like 9 cents on a cd and only 4.5 if you are not the publisher.

I am trying to publish my own now, but if a publisher came along and liked my work, (which is a hugh long shot) I am not sure I would sign over life rights to every thing I wrote along with upcoming work, as then you are confined to this contract even if you are not happy with how or how often they are trying to sell your work or pitch it to artists. If it is a big pub. company with contacts, it would be well worth it. I am curious to hear others response on this. I am new to this as well.

Just telling you what I was told in songwriting class from an artist:)

Kimberly

Kimberly,

Everyone is a self published writer until there is someone else who takes the reins and can get the songs in doors they cannot do themselves. If you are an artist, trying to do everything yourself, until you recieve major airplay you are probably best off doing it yourself. There is no real reason to go anywhere else.
If you are trying to pitch and promote songs to the commercial market, you have to decide what you want to do. In this day and age with rampant downloading and very few opportunities to actually make money at all, it is doubtful you would interest a publisher in less than 100% of any song. That is the incentive publishers use to work a song. Until you are a proven entity, it is doubtful you will interest a publisher.

What most publishers are looking for are writers that have radio ready songs, that are ready to be pitched, those that co-write with several other writers since it is a very shot gun business and those that have a wide variety of music. Aside from that, publishers are so overwhelemed with product they already can't do anything with, they are very hesitant to invest scant resources into anyone that is not tested.

In 2003, in Nashville we had 1480 staff writes. We now have 310.
In 2003 we had right around 4600 publishers. We now have less than 800.

Worldwide there are more publishers. With the Internet thousands spring up. But very few can actually get much accomplished. That is why you have companies like TAXI who are songplugging organizations instead of publishers. Since there is very little guaranteed on the back end, pluggers take money on the front end.
The latest trend is in "catalogue" companies,or libraries, which have hundreds and thousands of songs for people who are "interested" in them. The jury is out on how effective those are. My perspective is that when someone is overwhelmed with product, as every publisher, producer, artist, hit writer, major labels and publishers already are, why would they be expected to go outside for songs from people they don't know?

The music business is and always has been a personal one at a time business. It has never functioned too much on the "cattle call" effect. Music is a very personal thing. Matching emotions and story all together into something that motivates people to purchase it with their time and dollars, is never done by a random factor.

MAB

Thanks Kim! I appreciate it. I just want to get my songs pitched. With cuts, or listens, comes reputation, so I'd love to build on that. I'm not moving to Nashville, or anywhere else, so if I can build form here, that would be my goal. (not here on jpfolks, although, this is a great place to start (eh,eh,eh)
Umm...anyway, I just wanted to know if it's worth the effort, to get through all the tax stuff, to do it, or do I even need to worry. That's all I want to know.

I have no intention of worrying about representing others, I don't have the attention span for that these days, I'm just curious, if others have, and have they found it helpful. Has it made pitching easier? Has it helped with credibility?

(YES Marc, I know, no one knows me, so I'm not credible yet, that's not the question!) I just want to know if publishing your own work, with your own co. helps. Please leave any negative comments at the door....lol!

Caroline,

What have I said that is negative? I said you should publish your own stuff until you can get someone else to do it for you. And building contacts are exactly what you have to do no matter where you are. People come to Nashville after finding out most of the world has gone to being self contained where the artist is the writer, and they find it is pretty much the last vestige of publishing and writing.
There is nothing negative in this. It is simply business. If you want to earn credibility you do it the same way it has been done for around 100 years of the past century of recorded and published music, which is building demand for your music, getting it into the hands of people who are interested in paying for it. To do this as a writer you write with other people and interact with people until they take you somewhere you can't get yourself.
As a publisher you have to have contacts and inside track to build up demand for your product to let people know you are there. One way to do that is to appeal to people through My Space, Face Book and have web sites to build a repore on the way up since you don't have the contacts to higher level people until you earn that.
This is the way the music business has always worked. Instead of getting defensive you might want to find out from some publishers how they did it and try to replicate what others have done. The Internet can put you in contact with literally millions of people. You just have to find the ways to get to them.

Not one negative comment in this. Just business.

MAB

Anyone can be a publisher and have a publishing company. What one has to remember is that publishing is a contact game. If you publish yourself you still have the same contacts as you had when you were not published. I guess if you just want to say that you are a published writer it's ok or if you just want to say that you are a publisher it's ok but the fact remains that you still have the exact same contacts as you had before you published yourself.

Caroline,

I think June is spot on here. If you already have a lot of insider contacts in the music business, and can get to artists easily, it could be worth it to have your own publishing company. It is a contact sport!

If you just to have your own songs pitched, it might actually hurt you and prevent you from getting major cuts, to be your own publisher, as you don't have anything to bargain with, as Marc points out. A bunch of songwriting books point out the same, the big guys avoid shared publishing.

And in a way you already ARE your own publisher, as you already have 100% of the publishing rights to negotiate with, when dealing with another publisher. You just make a deal giving them away for something in return (contacts, administration ect.).

If you have songs for tv/film there is no reason to be concerned about publishing, as in the US (as the only country in the world), you don't get royalties from public displays. And if the film gets shown abroad, your PRO will collect.

So unless you have a plan of entering the publishing hustle and bustle with direct contact to artists, producers and record companies, I don't think it's worth considering.

That's the research version, anyway. I have no hands on experience.

I'd love for some real publishers to chime in, though, as I'll be very content being proved wrong.

Hey Caroline,

You can be your own publisher, but not here in Oz. The PRO, APRA, requires you submit the standard contract you use, and proof of 12 or more signed pieces to "other people". In other words, you can't be a legit pretend one.

You can everywhere else though. I'm my own publisher through ASCAP, but so what ? I'm still a pretend one. Anyone can see from a quick search, what sort of catalogue you have.

It's probably best to just be "the songwriter" until such time as someone is either going to be a real publisher for you, or you wish to go 2nd publisher on a given piece of work.

Just keeps it easy.

cheers, niteshift

HiDee Mz C!

SOME publishers EARN their "50%" & some Don't. So, if you can get Cuts WITHOUT using a Pub'r, more power To Ya! BEING a Publisher means YOU gotta get the Cuts/Cover the Demo Costs, often-enough, & do Whatever It Takes to GET those cuts. THEN comes the Administration Part: Tracking the Income Flow/Protecting Your Co.'s & Writers' Copyrights/Mailing out The Checks/Keepin' the Music Attorneys On-Retainer...etc-etc..WHILE ya continue to Work-Your-Catalogue..AND screen the New, Incoming Material for "Contenders".

My advice, since I've been working towards this for years, is to find a Partner-or-Two, ideally with Better Artist Connections, & let THEM handle SOME of the Duties-Just-Mentioned...IF you wanna continue to be a Writer. Otherwise, my personal guess is you'll get SO busy with All The "Outside Details" a Publisher faces, you'll not be penning MUCH material as the Pub House Takes Off.

Just One Guy's Opinion, &, I wish ya the Best of Luck, whatever way ya wander!

Big Hugs,
Stan

Thanks guys!

No Marc, you didn't say anything negative, didn't mean anything like that. I just want to know all the positive sides to it. Other then keeping the publishing for yourself.

Caroline,

There is a pretty good article on this in the "Complete Recording Guide" distributed by Discmakers for free. It's called Self-Control by Michael Cooper.....maybe you can find it on-line.

The bottom line for me is that it is too much trouble unless you are somewhat successful pitching your songs. YMMV

Caroline,

A friend and co-writer of mine, Jim McBride, who wrote Alan Jackson's "Way Down Yonder on the Chattahoochie" gave me the best advice on publishing. he said "Publishing is earned. You have to have someone else at first because you don't have contacts." and that is what publishers do. Have access. And it is very expensive.

It costs around $250,000 a year for the legitimate publishers to be in the business. That takes shape in the form of demos, travel, being in the right place at the right time, office space, salaries, insurance, etc. That is another part that weeds out people from doing it. And why most publishers are PINO's, or Publishers in Name Only. They really can't get in to see anybody, can't do much aside of print up business cards and pretend they are pubishers.

To be "official" you register as a publisher with a PRO, pick a domain name and you are a publisher. Probably a good idea for anyone to have a "holding tank" for songs in case any royalties are collected.

The basic problem in all of the money discussions that go on here and in other sites dedicated to songwriting, is that unless there is a song that has major distribution, radio airplay, and is in retail, there is simply no money to collect. There is nothing to publish. A publisher is the "agent' for songs. Getting songs out there and collecting money, which is what a publisher does, are two very different things.

So it kind of goes back to the original thought on this thread."Is is worth it?" If it gives a more professional feel to your writing and your musical journey, brings discipline, the incentive to write and interact with others and expand your musical universe, it is absolutley worth it. It can give a sense of accomplishment and there is something inner comforting for many people to look on letterhead or business cards and see "so and so publishing."

From the industry perspective it can be more of an impediment. A major publisher or even smaller publishers, are not going to share publishing. They have too many songs and writers to do that. A self-publisher can just represent one more impedimat to getting songs heard. If you are a major and are interested in a song or writer what you want to hear is "The publishing is open" that means if you put money or time or reputation into it there is less strings to deal with. If there is a pile of paperwork or rights you have to buy out, you are going to pass.

So I would answer your question with a question. What does "Worth it" mean to you? What are your expectations? What are you trying to achieve? What is your understanding of the way the music business works and do you understand the "other side of the desk" and what incentives are needed for other people to be involved in your work?

No negatives. Just need to look at all sides of an issue.

MAB

Magne,

I am a self published writer and have dealt a LOT with publishing. It is NOTHING I am intersted in doing. YOu end up like Stan says, spending ALL your time dealing with nothing that has to do with your own songs.
The first thing that happens when you list yourself as a publisher is you begin to get e-mails, phone calls, packages building up at your door from unsolicited people sending you material because the word "publisher" appears next to your name. and they are ALL horrible. you try to listen to a few, then start throwing them away. Then you have to deal with angry people calling and threatening you because you didn't send them their CD back in the self addressed, self stamped envelope and HOW DARE you criticize their genuise.
Just plain folks recieved 51,000 entries in their past awards contest. Imagine half of those coming your way. One thing we see in every contest. The SAME people participate in them all the time. That is the same with publishers, big, medium, small, self published. There have been "No unsolicited material" signs and warnings up for 25 years in Nashville and still publishers average hundreds of unsolicited CD's all the time.
That is another by product of mentioning you are a publisher.

MAB

OK, so without contacts it isn't worth it, of course, if I were going to cut my own material, it wouldn't be a bad idea, but otherwise....not really.

Thanks all, this is what I needed to know. I appreciate all the feedback!

Well,
Being a Music Publisher is like any other business. You just have to set it up and get aquainted with those that may be able to use the songs you either have written or have signed from writer's.

I doubt that many Publishers have $250,000.00 budgets unless they have been in business for many years. I imagine that any publisher that has such a budget has aquired songs from many sources and is getting royalities from many placements over the years.

The music business is tough and it may take years for a writer to get a cut.

I recommend you write and get your songs ready for submissions and when a cut happens then you can look at publishing. Many in the business will want publishing if they get a song cut. You have to be careful of what you agree to in that instance and if you want to sign your rights over.

Personally, I need to write songs, and I already struggle enough with allocating all the time I can to do that.

If I can avoid paperwork, I'll gladly give away all my publishing to serious publishers. I wouldn't even consider engaging in publishing.. I'd rather take a regular day job pushing brooms or something.. I mean it!

But then again, Im not your average Joe here. Im a guy who really gets stressed out from paperwork.. it worries me for weeks every time of the year when the tax is to be done..

Just to say, I respect and appreciate music publishers job tremenduously, and I wouldn't trade with them for anything in the world.

Ray,

Those are the budgets of the "real publishers" about 50 in Nashville that get 90% of the cuts in all country music. I just drove down 17th Ave. here and there are about 20 Big Green tractors parked on each block with "Congratulations Jason Aldeen for Number one for two weeks." signs on them. That is about a $10,000 a week promotion. The big boys play with big budgets, which is what weeds out those that can't play. There are other companies that are continually going out of business because they can't play.
There are around 800-850 publishers in Nashville or in other cities that have some Nashville inside connection. Of those less than 150 actually get enough attention to do anything.The rest are temporary people fighting for table scraps. That is down from 4600 six years ago.

MAB

I agree with Marc & June
Marc really nailed it.

I'd only add that...
I have always known that the number one most important job of a publisher is, if they accept you is to get your work accepted. There ONLY importance to me is getting my material to people and places that I CAN'T. And more of them. It is all about contacts.

So

1- We own our own publishing,ANYONE can do this. Who is gonna put your CD or Book on the shelves to make money. Nobody! That's not our business,it's theirs.
It's like those many record labels and publishers in Songmarket Guides that accept unsolicited material. Some dude in his home basement office. If he could get our songs on the charts he wouldn't be accepting our songs

2- Ya know what else a REAL publisher can do and has done. Give advances....
See if we can borrow 10 grand or more from ourselves?

If you have or once you have great connections and the funds to completely support your cause. Looking into your own publishing is a smart and cool thing. Not only for yourself but you could make deals with others. As long as you can bypass and get right to the labels and other contacts.

But this is still time consuming business. Do we want to focus on writing & product or even more business than pitching and making contacts? That's really up to you. I think making great music and trying to make contacts is work enough.

I think I was done when Mag brought up paperwork....

It - and Mike's comments - had the same affect on me, Caroline. I'm so glad you asked the question.

At the moment I'm going insane just trying to get Agreements signed by various musicians around the world, who collaborated on several of my songs. (The songs were accepted by a music licensing agency.) Once this batch is finished, I'm never doing it again. At least not unless I know everyone already belongs to a PRO.

I hate, loathe, and detest paperwork...

Donna

There you have it, Caroline.

Is it worth publishing your own songs? It is if you can do a good job at it. If you can get your songs cut and then administer your business well, then it is worth it. In the meantime, is it worth getting a publiher? Only if the publisher is a better publisher than you are.

If you are using a publisher with no track record for getting major cuts, then that publisher should give you a good deal. They should pay for all or part of the demos, or give you an advance, or give you a short reversion clause, or only take half the publishing. If you are an unknown writer and are taken on by a major publisher with a track record, then you've done well...unless they want you to pay a lot of money for a demo that they do. Often, that's all they want, to sell you a demo.

So be wise. Listen to the advice your team gives you. You DO have a team, don't you?

All the Best,
Mike

Hey, we should start a "Songwriters against paperwork campaign!". It needs to be online, of course :-)

ummm. no I don't have a team...guys...hello...what ya at???

I have no team, I have no time to worry with paperwork, I have no interest in all that stuff...so I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and try to get my publisher to see that I write gold and...oh, wait, sorry, daydreaming for a second. HA!

I'll be contacting them though!

Caroline,

Every hit writer I have ever known or worked with all started with a daydream. This thread has been a good one and you are right for starting it. A lot of people are trying to find their way through all this. My particular take on it is I deal with a lot of people that are so concerned with publishing or PRO's or copyrights when they should be focused on if they have any songs that warrent any of that.
The real deal is that if you are writing stuff that consistantly kills people (metaphorically)that takes on a life of it's own. Music is very much the referall I talked about. One thing I have noticed about songwriters is that they are always ready to comment and help a song or writer if it truly blows them away. You see it here all the time. Someone will say "Man I just heard a song that was great..." and post links and comments.
Incidentally, you do have a team here. You have a few very educated studio advisers, you have some people with PRO experience, publishing experience, people such as myself on networking and lyric and melody experience, and a peer review that can help you gather information on pretty much anything you want to know. You have people across the US, Canada, the UK, even as far as Australia and New Zealand that can give you feedback, pass along information on you and are always there to lend a hand if you need it.
So I would say you are in pretty good shape. Actually a LOT better than a ton of the people in Nashville, LA and New York. You have a lot in your favor. Never over look that.

MAB

Hi Gang:

Interesting thread. No Caroline, there's nothing wrong with being your own publisher... assuming you plan to represent only your own catalog of songs. If you decide to "take on" the works of others, the paperwork and red tape can become overwhelming very fast.

From my perspective, being one's own publisher provides the pathway to register your songs with your pro as both, the writer and the publisher. If and when you "hit it big" the possibility of having a better negotiating posture is enhanced by being a publisher. Nevertheless, there is a significant amount of work involved in managing your own catalog. It's not for everyone, especially if details are boring to you.

No, a team is not required... but it sure helps. As Marc said, "You have a team here at JPF already." It is a pretty good resource. (Even that guy who posts often here as "the Foot.")

Caroline,
There's a book called Making Music Make Money by Eric Beall (Berklee Press) which you can preview here:

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Music-Make-Money-Publisher/dp/0876390076

I read it cover to cover and Eric Beall, creative director for Zomba Music Publishing, covers everything you need to know to get published, including: the role of a music publisher; copyright - how to get one, use one, and make money from one; building a business plan; identifying which songs to sell and to whom; and much more.

One of his main points in the intro and throughout various chapters of the book is his emphasis on the fact that to ever get "signed" by a serious successful publisher, you must first learn to become one. There are many (logical) advantages to this, but most importantly it's a "guage" of your business success and reputation, etc. Unless you have this kind of publishing experience background, few will want to deal with you, but many will try to "snooker" you.

Anyway, if you haven't read the book or don't want to buy it, you can probably borrow it from your local library. It's a very informative "nuts & bolts" book and you'll learn what's really going on "inside" the music publishing and licensing business. If you're going to get into the "biz", you've got to learn and then not be afraid to jump in with both feet!

Hope this gives you some helpful direction.
Michael

Thanks Michael, that book sounds interesting...I'm gonna have to check it out.

All I can say is a big AMEN...Marc

They say nothing in life is free...
The advice given by a fair majority here isn't free...IMHO...somebody learned the hard way and payed a fair price along that journey...sounds dang near biblical to me...lol
It ain't free...but it sure is priceless.

Larry