JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Collabs are rampant these days!

Yeah Big Jim,
Marc gives all kinds of reasons of why we won't make it in Nashville and then someone does the impossible. It is that unknown qunanity that defies all logic. See, there is a chance for me after all!

Hey everybody, hope you're doing well.

Not everybody agrees on who has talent and who hasn't. What's irritating is to see someone whom one thinks is talented not getting the success one thinks they deserve.

To explain that, different explanations have been advanced: the Puritans said it was Predestination; others that the universe is dominated by chance and sheer luck; the left-oriented thinkers say it's because the elite uses their power to keep the whole pie for themselves; if you lean more towards the right-wing you'll say it's because you haven't done all what it takes to get your slice of the cake; etc.

I don't mean to be exhaustive. I just tend to think we're all somewhat puzzled when it comes to see who wins and who loses. To me, Jim seems left-oriented, he says Big Business rules the world. Marc seems more inclined to the right: he says anyone can fight for the Prize, they just have to be damn good.

What I'm saying here is that we're not talking about facts nor opinions, we're talking about beliefs (political, social, religious or/and philosophical). No wonder people are touchy about this. It all boils down to the world vision you have.

I personally think you increase your odds when you word hard towards achieving your goal. Some people tell me I'm naive, telling me "Don't you know there's no God in the Universe and that the bankers rule the world?" I can see there may be some truth in that statement, but I CHOOSE to BELIEVE work and talent can lead to success. I'm not saying I'm right. But I want to live my life BELIEVING in Justice and Positivity. This is not a fact - most facts contradict it - this is not an opinion - I didn't forge my opinion by examining facts and talking about them with other people - this is a BELIEF. And I'm not telling anyone to believe in this belief. But those who believe in the contrary tend to be sad and bitter before I am, so I'd say: maybe my belief is wrong, but it gives me hope and strength.

wow...some of these posts are downright funny.

I understand the frustrations stated here and I understand the opposite view and where it comes from,but I thought about it for a minute and realized that EVERY artist I admire would'nt make it past a guy like Simon Cowell in the 1st round.

That would not be the point though.The artists I love are not from that part of the cloth,they have alot of character and depth to what they do.Most top 40 is the opposite to my ears.

There is cake and there is bread.Talent can be found in the cake too it just does not run as deep.I compare music to food....there's the awesome steakhouse downtown and then there is mcdonald's.

I would agree that the music buying puplic are not the brightest bulbs in the chandelier,they gravitate to the flavor of the month mostly....cake.....mcdonald's.The artists that produce very intelligent works rarely ever chart highly because it is simply over the heads of "pop culture" fans and they do not want to think.

Yes,music is subjective..but come on,alot of the obviously shallow is just that......obviously shallow.I personally know many singer/songwriters that could routinely write circles around the "taylor Swift" types,but they are not young and pretty and do not oversing every note.

The young stars today are gifted singers and have talent,but that vocal style drives me nuts.It would be like Ed van halen soloing through a whole song,the magic wears off very quickly.

That is just an opinion,I tend to lean towards the artist with depth and they usually have a "slow burn" of a carreer with die hard fans.

2 cents from the peanut gallery.

Hey Mac,

I remember when the Beatles first came out. The folkies all agreed that they were just pop fluff. Shallow. It was obvious. Later in college, I had a music professor who insisted that any pop music at all was inferior to classical music. To him, even Tchaikovsky was kind of "pop." Nowadays, I work with some serious bluegrassers, fellows who are considered some of the elite of bluegrass music. Some of them think any music other than bluegrass is simply laughably stupid.

After spending a lifetime studying, teaching, and performing music, some of my favorite artists are "rootsy," often people who sing a little out of tune and whose timing might not be perfect. Traditional blues artists, appalachian country and bluegrass, folks like Mississippi John Hurt and Dr. Ralph Stanley. Tom Waits, Ry Cooder, Leonard Cohen, Iris DeMent, and many others are considered inferior by people of whom can be said to have finer taste and a discriminating ear.

I remember once being riveted at a jam session by a singer's rendition of "Down by the Riverside." He sang it with a rough, whiskey voice and some quirky stylistic turns. I was transfixed, moved. A fairly well known singer at the jam told the guy he sounded like someone was strangling Bugs Bunny.

So here's to all the shallow arists. The pop fluff, faux music hall, psychedelic, aleatoric, pretensious garbage of the Beatles; the commercial, sell-out, sometimes pseudo intellectual, poorly copied R&B of Creedence; The quacking and croaking of Ralph Stanley; The nasal, crying in your beer country of Hank Williams; The gravelly throated sound they call singing of Louis Armstrong; and, to all the others...the Bee Gees, Barry Manilow, George Jones, and Taylor Swift....folks like Igor Stravinsky, Klaus Nomi, Ray Charles, Vincent Van Gogh, Tiny Tim and Susan Boyle.

Man, what kept them going? What kept them slogging through with all the naysayers and critics so quick to pronounce them inferior? What made them believe in themselves with all of the experts calling them shallow, untalented, garbage? Find out what that was...that's what we need.

Mike,

That is a band I didnt even think of.....you are right.I remember the naysayers concerning the beatles.I guess it just comes down to taste.

There is a guy here in portland who is what I would consider a musicians musician.We were talking one day and the beatles came up,he did not like them for that very reason.He thought they were too sugary/pop/bubble gum,I was aghast....ha ha.

I can see how they were a bit fluffy in the early days,but thats a band that still really got under my skin despite the fluff.

There was about a ten year period from around 68' to 78' of counter culture FM radio called "Underground" radio which has since been replaced by "Classic Rock". They usually had a DJ who spoke real low and peaceful and said things like "groovy" and "man" a lot. A lot of these stations were college radio stations but some were commercial.

Think about the old SNL skit with Dan Aykroyd switching from AM to FM. They played album cuts along with the hits. The Beatles White Album was not fluff. AM radio didn't play that album. You had to find it on FM. AM had a cover band called "Underground Sunshine" that played "Birthday".

I collect radio broadcasts. I have a tape of an FM station air check from 68'. There is a commercial for a Jimi Hendrix concert in Houston.

Mike, I know what you mean about bluegrass elites. You also have to play a Martin guitar, preferably a D-28.

It all comes down to taste. Talent? What good is fast hands and a good ear if nobody likes your stuff? Is B.B. King a less talented guitar player than Steve Vai? I guess you could say so. Is Steve Vai better? Because he's faster? Or is talent some innate ability to sound "good?" To whom?

Talent is important to teachers, managers and critics. Love of music is important to musicians. The ability to communicate feeling is important to listeners.

If you want to be a critic, then learn to discern who is "talented" and who is not. Who is "shallow" and who is not. Bud don't be surprised if others disagree with you. Then you should make some sort of educated pronouncement.

"The Beatles were a guitar band, something that was waning in the middle sixties, with an approach to harmony that was somewhat of a throwback to the late fifties amalgamation of pop and rockabilly. Their meteoric success, brought on by the shrewd business maneuvering of their manager, Brian Epstein, put them in a position where they could either imitate their successful pop rock ditties, or try to expand their audience by synthesizing styles.

So they turned to their producer, Sir George Martin, whose knowledge of Classical music and the English Music Hall gave some structure to their excesses of composition, fueled by drugs and the immature megalomania of the superstar."

So, I just wrote that. Well, I don't believe it, but I'll bet it would sound compelling to a lot of folks. Instead of pronouncements, I'd rather see critics write: I did or didn't like that song...and here's why. Heck, the very reasons why so and so doesn't like something may be exactly the reason why I do!

The truth is, people will look for all kinds of reasons to make excuses for their own taste. But in the end, what difference does it make? If you like it, listen to it. If you don't like it, and you're not studying it, then leave it alone. But don't call it a "value" judgement to anyone but yourself. It's not. It's a matter of taste.

That is, by the way, what I consider to be the genius of Brian's rules for the judges of the JPF Music Award Contest. Brian tells the judges: Does it move you? ....and that's it. Those are the judges' instructions. Not, "Listen for recording flaws. Are the songs harmonized correctly? Do the lyrics make sense? Does the chorus have a lift? Is there a four line bridge? and on and on." That stuff is for teachers and students. People who are learning are often (not always) best served by developing skills in creating things that are structured similarly to things that have worked in the past. When Picasso studied art, he learned to copy the masters, then went off into his own thing. But then, the critics held him to the rules of the student, not recognizing the value of the free, unrestricted creator. And it is ever so.

I am 56 years old and have been singing pro with bands since my early teens. The songs I sing are about as diverse as you can get in style and genre. I rub shoulders with talented musical people daily so I think I know by now a goodun from a badun. I can tell when a singer is out of tune or has poor tonal qualities or cannot express feeling or light and shade. I know when a guitarist has a limited repertoire, when a keyboard player is not up to scratch or when a drummer has only learned the basics. I know what I like and what I do not like but still can appreciate talent from other disciplines or musical styles. I know when someone talented is playing a piece I might not care for. I see that talent still shining through. I abhor rap music for the crime and gang culture it stands for and flowery vocal gymnastic R&B singing. I am not keen on some folk and country music either..yet I can see that some of the exponents of these genres have talent.
In short we should all be able to determine crap from talent. Why shallow, crap and mediocrity should sell big time is beyond belief and understanding..... it should be beyond every other honest persons thinking.
I watched in disbelief and got so angry I almost threw up during this weeks X FACTOR. What sickened me was not the woeful lack of talent. It was the fact that people get enjoyment and entertainment watching sad deluded people being ridiculed and making a fool of themselves on national TV. One or more of these people will become a millionaire and make hit records.....none of them have any real talent.
I am not bitter....just angry that people with huge talent who have spent a lifetime dedicating themselves to music and perfecting skills get nowhere and the charts are made up of average karaoke singers who succeed or fail on the whim of a panel of equally shallow people who only have cash registers for brains.

Threads still alive Then lets have more fun..

Love your posts Mike D on the money..
Still part of the point Jim was making has nothing to do with
guys like BB King or Steve Via They are not on TV & Radio 24/7
Actually they never were lol..

We are really talking about POP music. Popular Music from Glen Miller to Lil Wayne

Somebody here I think Mike Z said if there was a scanner or machine that could determine talent...

The thing with music is that it's VERY VERY subjective!

Take it's skill & business concept and switch it to a simple sport like BOXING. Now it's No More Subjective...

There's your scanner, In boxing the less talented get eaten up. They also get judged by professional judges,
They do not get rich & famous, they get knocked out, disabled and sometimes killed.

That is not a debate, opinion, tastes, kids, industry, radio blah blah.. It's flat out truth.

Your a FIGHTER so your fighting abilities are ALL that matters.

If the music business were a boxing match and your MUSICAL abilities were all that mattered. Then Jim would have his perfect music industry

Here's your first fight,,, lol
Shakira would dance around and sing and look great for a round and half then Joni Mitchell would knock her unconscious and she would NEVER come back. Because it doesn't HURT to keep believing your the bomb in the music industry.

Music used to be like boxing in a way in the fact that when artist like Paul McCartney, Stevie Wonder, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell, Queen, Elton John, Billy Joel, The Eagles, Chicago, The Bee Gees,Michael Jackson etc... etc.. were on the radio 24/7 WE had NO CHANCE! If they were in line in front of you to get into this business you would get off the line and go home.

So if you are in fact trying to get into the business today be glad there is nobody with anywhere near the level of talent I mentioned above. NOBODY!
I'm happy about that, nobody on the radio today I mean nobody scares or intimidates me...
But now it's a a flood gate,numbers to overcome instead of monster talent to compete with. Same game though!

Do you know your own weakness?
Hey what round would you make it to if music was like boxing?

Heavyweight champion of the world...well I am 20 stone or as they say in the USA 280 pounds.

I like sports. I'm watching the Giants beat Washington right now. I like boxing too, watched a lot of it while I was a kid.

But the music business is nothing like sports.

Sports are quantifiable. You push someone over a line. Knock them down. Move a ball a certain distance. If you watch a football game or boxing match, you know who won. If you compare Paul Simon to Joni Mitchell, some folks won't like one, some won't like the other, some both, and some neither. So, who won? the one who sold the most albums? That would be Taylor Swift. The one that Mike C. says won? I'd say neither, I'd say John Prine won.

Music is more like politics. Or, my favorite comparison, music is like the restaurant business. But, I'm not going to go into metaphors. I'd rather talk about music itself.

When we were kids, music was more important to our lives than it is to kids today. Music took the place of the internet, the video game, the cell phone, texting, the mall, and on and on in today's world. For us, music was more important to our culture, we didn't have those other things. So we had time to really get into music. Can you win at the new video game? I don't even know what the new ones are, except Guitar Hero. My son can beat them all very quickly. Year ago, the time he spent playing video games, he would have spent listening to the latest Poco album.

Kids now, don't want music to focus on. They want music to be the soundtrack for other stuff. It's more like the 50's. Be bop a lu la. Bim bam boom. Poppa Oo Mow Mow. Blip blip blip blip blip blip blip blip, Mum mum mum mum mum mum mum mum. Oooo Oooo Baby baby. That 50's pop filled the bill....it did it's job. So, was it bad? Funny, if you played "Yellow Submarine" or "Bohemian Rhapsody" to a bunch of guys cruising the soda shop in 1955, they'd have called you a sissy and slapped you. So, what was wrong? Why didn't the heavyweights from the future knock out the shallow stuff from the 50's? Why wasn't it obvious that this was something superior? Because the audience was not led to it.

Just like the audience who first heard Stravinsky's Firebird actually rioted in the theater and began burning the seats, any truly revolutionary art is often not appreciated in it's vanguard. And just like the Beatles took rock from woooo woooo to she came through the bathroom window, they started with something accessible, then moved to something revolutionary. They first created the audience, then they led them on their musical journey. Taylor Swift may take her fans on a ride as she develops. She's already entered the first phase, a lot of people talk about her and she has a lot of people who don't even know her, that hate her. Just like the Beatles did. Just like Stravinsky did. Just like Elvis did. Whether she becomes a pivot point or not, only time will tell. Who knew it would be the Beatles instead of the Beach Boys to be the revolutionary pivot point? The Beach Boys were quite possibly more talented than the Beatles. Glen Campbell could play rings around George Harrison, and they outsang them by a country mile. So why weren't the Beach Boys the heavyweights? Because music isn't quantifiable. It's based on taste and fashion, and tastes and fashion always change.

I think I'll go and listen to some Louvin Brothers. Now that's REAL music.

I'll listen to uncle John Hurt. Thanks for the reminder MD.

Great idea, Mike C!

I would flat out WIN early rounds involving recording techniques and getting a good sound and doing it all within the confines of the same room where I take care of my dying mother.

I would tie in the mixing rounds, I use an old pair of headphones, but know them so well that the judges would give me points.

I would WIN the round involving recorded vocals. If I need to break the song up into phrases, then loop the music so I sing the same phrase thirty times while recording alternate takes, so be it. I will then painstakingly composite a vocal, making sure every nuance is what I envisioned. The judges won't care about "singing all the way through" until the last round, the performing live round.

I would tie in the "networking" round, as the judges would like my passion, but would wish I would show more restraint in some situations, and bite my tongue more often.

I would get to the last round, involving "playing live" ...and because I would show no consistency night after night, I might possibly lose this round. Never learned the secret of playing the same songs over and over, with the same enthusiasm. I was always best in cover tune bar bands, but the thought of playing the songs me and my collab partners write, scares me, because it's hard trying to "reach people, enthusiastically, sincerely" night after night. This is my last round, where I may get knocked out, or I might learn to find more inner strength...the round continues...

Mike

Collabs rock...they always bring out something that never would have happened written all alone. Are they always better? No. Lots of classics are written by one person. But I'm beginning to believe they are USUALLY better, due to having someone watch your back, and vice versa.

That said, these internet collaborations do miss something special for me: the same room. Something magic happens when more than one person gets into the zone together, each hitting that creative rush simultaneously...you can feel it in the air. Sometimes internet collabs are like playing chess by mail.

a little cake?-----

"Indian Outlaw"

I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind

All my friends call me Bear Claw
The Village Cheaftin' is my paw-paw
He gets his orders from my maw-maw
She makes him walk the line

You can find me in my wigwam
I'll be beatin' on my tom-tom
Pull out the pipe and smoke you some
Hey and pass it around

'Cause I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind

I ain't lookin' for trouble
We can ride my pony double
Make your little heart bubble
Lord, Like a glass of wine

I remember the medicine man
He caught runnin' water in my hands
Drug me around by my headband
Said I wasn't her kind

Cause I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind

I can kill a deer or buffalo
With just my arrow and my hickory bow
>From a hundred yards don't you know
I do it all the time

They all gather 'round my teepee
Late at night tryin' to catch a peek at me
In nothin' but my buffalo briefs
I got 'em standin' in line

Cause I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind

Cherokee people
Cherokee tribe
So proud to live
So proud to die


a little bread?----

All rise, behold the famous disappearing man
Who comes in crimson robes but leaves in yellow rags
Hear now his ancient call to union
And the furious communion of the maiden and the stag

In the dark, in the dawn, with your wedding dress in tatters
You reveal the yearning desert in the country of your skin
How you ache for the fawn, and he says it doesn't matter
But it does and he's gone, and you know that he won't be back again

Long now he's borne his heavy armor resting
Only in his sorrows and his noble-nosed regrets
Some light, some momentary solace
And he'll ride off gay and lawless as the moment that you met

So the night comes and goes, and there's no one there to nurture
But yourself and you know that you've nothing left to lose
Will you stand in the road waiting for another searcher
Will you weep soft and low in the voice that your mother used to use

Springtime the swain came green and hero like
A friendly gypsy storm on tender lilies, hale and blaze
Late fall, the boatman rowed you grimly
Down a canyon dark and empty in a stale and dreary haze

At the end of the year when the cliffs rise up behind you
And the stream runs in circles from the chasm to the core
And the sun comes in tears 'cause the gardener did not find you
Will you bloom bright and fierce, will you know you don't need him anymore


sorry...I couldn't resist.

Great point........There is the wecam where you can see each other and communicate in real time. It is not as good as being in the same room but is the next best thing....
Has anybody collabed using this and how did it go?

Big Jim,

I have tried cowriting on Skype with a Nashville writer recently. He called me up at 6am (that's Tennesee time, 1pm my time) as he'd been awake due to a pipe leakage, and we wrote a song from scratch in one 5 hour session, line by line. We just had audio, and no cam, though. But we worked in real time for 5 hours, at absolutely no cost! Skype is an amazing tool.

I think real time colabs are way more intuitive than email, even on Skype, and the interaction is there, but different than in a real room. We didn't really play together, but listened to each other in turns. But I realized after doing this, that the song captured some emotions I was not quite aware of. Thats the beauty of real time writing, it's intuitive, and it brings the deep stuff up to the surface - in this case without me even realizing it!

So it's somewhat slower than being in the room together, but I'd say it's the next best thing. And in some situations it might even beat real time cowriting, I think.

You need to prepare stuff beforehand though, like procedures, have the material you bring to the table accessible in pc files ect.

We ended up with a finished song, though, so I think it can be done.

I like that idea.....you get time on your own to formulate ideas and then Skype them with a collaborator to come up with the basis for a song...then you can go away and polish it up. My big frustration is not being able to discuss in depth the finer points....emails take such a long time and there is always something about interaction in real time that you cannot get without being face to face. I believe that Ebony and Ivory was written and recorded without Jackson and Macca ever meeting flesh to flesh.

Yes, I think you definitely risk loosing the finer points. You have to be more effective and professional in terms of communicating and knowing where to go and what to do, when you interact though media, as it always reduces some modalities of human interaction and communication.. so, some creative energy and opportunities inevitably gets lost. But that also happens face to face depending on the chemistry, so if you go into it with pro attitude, chemistry issues can be less of a hindrance too, I think.

At least for me, cowriting over Skype is viable as one of many different songwriting activities, as there's still a lot of lyrical and musical improvisation to it - And for those who never get the last words in flesh to flesh conversations, it can even be an advantage..

Interesting topic I will be looking into Skype. I agree with what you say....I was referring more to the quantity of input being lost rather than chemistry. Lack of chemistry when not face to face and to instantly throw back and forth ideas is a given. Too much work tends to be wasted between emails. I have noticed that there can be a lack of spontaneity when waiting for a co writer to put his thought and feelings forward. A lot of times we can go of on the wrong tack and it is difficult getting back.

Yes, I have the same experience with emails. It's funny, I hear songwriters in the big metropols, no matter where in the world, are collaborating over email and Skyping - even if they live in the same town. There are even people collaborating in the radiowaves over Music Row! Of course some US cities like New York are so big, that if you live in each end, it's like living in each part of Denmark :-)

So the big dominating paradigm is the band and same room thing, much because of the immediate response (on Skype we very often say "do you like that?", but I still think long distance collaboration can make great things happen. Sometimes when you reach 40 you don't want all the crap from young guys either, but still think they are talented, so long distance collaboration can be an option for us old jokes

I've heard a lot of A 'level' musicians who really can't write a lyric, and no matter how great they play, their songs just ain't happening. There are a bunch of great players who just have those elitist ideas about music being about virtuoso techniques, and fail to acknowledge the amount of skills and talent involved in great lyric writing. And they are killing their career IMO. And by great, I don't mean the divine 10 minutes of flow experience, but the skills involved in telling a compelling story, crafting a lyric around a concept, and have the clout to make it appropriate for and artist and a genre.

I think this thread somewhat have forgotten the A talent SONGWRITERS, over 20, that'll never will get a record deal, and are miscredited as B level talent or worse, just because they are not session level players.

Those hidden people are the ones to collaborate with, if you are looking to make great recordable songs, I think.

I just joined Skype.......It is free so I can see lots using it.......I await my first Skype collab to test it out.....

The charts are jam packed full of B and even C listers. I do not think any A listers have much to worry about comparing their songs to the competition. Problem is most people cannot seem to be able to tell the difference between crap and class. Talent seems to be the least of the qualifications needed for a hit nowadays when it all comes down to it. All you need is a good body and a soft porn video....... it sells any old crap.

Well, I at least have a soft body. Do I have even half a chance?

Kevin you would need a sex change to have even half a chance with me.LOL

You might want to start a thread about talent, Big Jim.. I don't understand the word?

What talent? Talent to do what? Remember Niteshifts long list of roles? http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/749582/page/2#Post749582

If you write songs for others to hear, you try to combine talents to make the best entertainment. Great songwriters, great musicians and a singer that looks good, can sing and is nice to people. And if you are doing records, a producer..

There are thousands in line for these parts in life, and many can fill them out. I don't think there are anything special about music. Of course for records you don't need all of those players, you just need a great producer. But 'live', you do.

Some can do everything, but hey I don't think all Stevie Wonders lyrics are that great, and Bob Dylans music is often just standard blues progressions played bad, and many more examples like that excists.

I guess you are talking about the multitalented, but even they don't do everything. I believe 'hype' is a big reason why A talents became big. They started to believ more in themselves and got the neccesary chances in their careers. But you don't think hype has any part in it? You believe these A talents have something unique deep down in their toes or where ever, that makes them great? You belive in comic book heroes, idols that show the way for humanity and all of that romantic stuff?

I think those are great stories, and we wouldn't be better off without them, but I believe minimum requirement to be great is to be out there in the first place, and if you get into the flow of music and your cowriters/players, you might even do something great.

I don't understand what kind of lack of talent you are critizising, Big Jim? Is it the Britney Spears'? Is it the Autotune plug-in? Is it the homogenization of music on the radio?

You are free to seek out great shows, buy the records you like, listen to the radio you want ect..

What?

Thanks for the consideration, Jim, but I'm saving myself for Shakira.

Who said 15-year-old, teenage girls couldn't write? Know who it is? I'll give you a hint: it's NOT Taylor Swift. Damn, we're gonna soon be encircled, LOL. This is better than anything I've ever written: you can say it's because I'm crap and maybe you're right; I'd say that's why SHE's on the radio and NOT ME (yet).

"Four Walls"

These four walls
They whisper to me
They know a secret
I knew they would not keep
It didn't take long
For the room to fill with dust
And these four walls came down around us

It must have been something to send me out of my head
With the words so radical and not what I meant
Now I wait
For a break
In the silence 'cause it's all that you left
Just me and these four walls again

It's hard now to let you be
I won't make excuses
I've made my peace
It didn't take long
For me to lose the trust
'Cause these four walls
Were not strong enough

It must have been something to send me out of my head
With the words so radical and not what I meant
Now I wait
For a break
In the silence 'cause it's all that you left
Just me and these four walls again

Yeah
It's difficult
Watching us fade
Knowing it's all my fault
My mistake
Yeah, and it's difficult
Letting you down
Knowing it's all my fault
You're not around

It must have been something to send me out of my head
With the words so radical and not what I meant
Now I wait
For a break
In the silence 'cause it's all that you left
Just me and these four walls again

Again

BIG JIM MERRILEES "Problem is most people cannot seem to be able to tell the difference between crap and class."

There's Jim telling everyone else we aren't worthy again. Now I'm just trying to figure out if you have the golden ear how you never became an A&R rep. Or better yet why you haven't scooped up all the talent you hear that everyone else ignores and started a record company. Surely your walls would be lined with gold and platinum by now.

Hi Magne & friends

A ways ways back I wrote a thread to Jim very similar to what you guys are writing now. One of things I said was something like "Jim why do keep turning every post into an attack on the music industry"? We know it is like a nightmare, but really,what are you gonna do about it? just focus on your work for now"

I'm not here to attack Jim or to defend him, He certainly doesn't need any help lol... Ever meet someone in your life who was nice & cool to hang out with but was also very opinionated? Had strong beliefs as do many people but comes on a bit strong in pushing them?

I have!

Some of them are my best friends... Only it takes my new friends about a year to get used to them lol and then they become friends. It reminds me of a line from a Rocky movie. Apollo says to Rocky about his brother in law Paulie "Hey is he always like this?"Rocky says "yeah it see takes about six years to get to know him" LOL Apollo replies "well I haven't got six years"

Jim is upfront,honest,sincere and helps alot of people here. I see that all the time. And i know others know that as well.And even when I feel he may not be going about in not the best way lol.. I can't completely disagree with what he's saying usually ever really.. Actually most of it's true, straight up.

Only it's not always necessary big guy
I know your not trying to break into the biz so you have no rules to be attached with.
And to someone who doesn't know you there gonna get a negative vibe. The only reason I'm saying this is because I like you personally, I respect you and care.

I know how Jim feels and what he is thinking, He's just very passionate about music. We all are, that's why we are here.

1- If we study this game we know it's the industry that sets the bar. Most of the artist/whichever you dislike or feel have nothing to offer are HERE because that's what is happening
on the scene. So all mediocre brings is more mediocre copies.
It's really not young artists faults.... they copy what they hear and see, It's the nature of the game... Whether you feel they have talent or not they still MADE IT throught the door
In there time... VERY VERY VERY hard to do regardless od what they do. PS - They don't know NOT to use autotune.. lol..

2- It's a shame that the BIGGEST attention in all the music industry is focused on a TV show.. AI just another version of Star Search only deals are sealed right on the spot. They are pre-selling and fabricating a music start & career right in front of your eyes. And doing a heck of a lot of critiquing lol
Ever notice a lot TV is like someone standing or sitting up there on a stage or platform... and a review board or audience is judging them and analyzing. Not so great for MUSIC - GENIUSES
for making money. MUSIC/BUSINESS always remember the two words..

Magne, - You keep thinking "A" talent is only virtuoso players... wrong! Paul McCartney is triple A talent he is not George Benson on the guitar,(who I love) he's beyond Benson in depth of talent

Stevie Wonder - has many many great lyrics.. why is he so superior well, it's just the way it is. He wrote loads of GREAT songs.. lyrics and melodies. He is a GREAT singer with a unique voice. Nobody sounded like Stevie before Stevie but since...

He is a KILLER musician. Yeah he''s one of my favorite drummers!
He is a PIONEER of the synthesizer and on keyboard.. He is so "Musical" it's not even funny, it's scary.. Go listen to Innervisions . The guy plays everything himself. Not only is he versatile in his hands on abilities,instruments,voices
But his music is versatile. From super funk, to reggae,JAZZ all over the place... Oh and did I forget to mention PRODUCER!

He's get full blown props, every grammy deserved, The radio & pop loves him, Rock loves him, Jazz loves him, Reggae loves him,
Funk loves him, R&B adores him, RAP & Hip Hop LOVE him, all musicians with any know how love him. Great drummers love him, songwriters LOVE him, singers love him..

He is like Ray Charles on juice man, to the 10th power.
Ray was awesome especially for his time, but lacked in the writing dept. Stevie took it to a whole nother level, just like Jordan did with Dr. J in basketball. And no one has been anywhere near him since. That's the beauty of it.. To be truly unique and great that they can't. Like Ali to boxing.

When i listen To Songs In The Key Of Life at first I get sad,,
I feel I have absolutely no business making music of any sort.
Then after a while I get inspired beyond belief,my eyes tear up and I think, hey "this is what it's all about"

So if Music were like Boxing lol Stevie would be champion. The only thing he can't do is dance,I think

There's your gauge and NOBODY can argue with it, he humbles everybody and anybody knows it
The Beatles are this as well completely. It's not even fair...

So again Jim I'll say, whats over is over, thank God for those of us trying to get a cut there are very few "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" to compete with,there sure used to be a lot more of them

I won't argue with what you think of Stevie, Mike.. Im sure you are right.. ;-)

I think Big Jim has got a talent for ranting about the music business.. or so it seems? We'll might be looking out for the next Simon Cowell.. heheh

Hi Mag

Yeah I'm right for sure! lol

And I would love Jim on one of these shows..
Better than Ellen

Music industry spends big money on very few artists, because that's what it takes nowadays to get things heard above the rumble. I read somewhere Brian's post who says that the vast majority of albums released each year - with a promotion budget - goes simply nowhere (less than 1000 copies, I think he said).

So the choice is rather limited for the audience. Once an artist has been signed, he or she'd better sell his songs if he/she doesn't want to get out of business for life. That explains why risks and artistic experimentation are kept to a minimum.

Mike C., Stevie Wonder is HUGE. Songs in the Key of Life is truly a masterpiece. But I wonder what he'd do now if he were 18 and a commercial career to start. Would he be as magnificently revolutionary or would he play safer? And what sort of success would he get, depending on his decision?

I think each generation is able to produce musical geniuses, which means that there are some young ones right now who have the talent to do as huge as the Beatles or Stevie. But I also think our times - economic considerations here - don't give them the opportunity to exploit their full potential. They have to be very careful, they're not free to deliver their goods fully, so they may record songs a wee bit conventional. I think it's true in all sorts of businesses right now. Very talented people everywhere with a leash on their creativity, frightened to lose their jobs.

I agree, Swift's album is nowhere near Songs in the Key of Life, I'm not deaf. But that Swift girl could go further if only provided the opportunity, that's what I think from what I can see and hear.

Thanks Mike..... I think....... LOL......
PS. Rocky was a petty cool character he acted dumb but undernath was as sharp as a tack.

I think of myself as a moral conscience inside a head..... it tells you something is wrong....you want to go against the conscience....... cos everyone else goes against it..... but deep down if you are honest you know the conscience is right. It might not be popular but it is usually right.

We are always cool Jim

I say to everybody don't worry about it especially if it has no affect on you.
If somebody here was 20 and an artist on the verge of a major record deal. Than I would say okay.... but even then you'd be too busy being 20 and on the verge lol

Mike D explained in detail the historic nature of the game and the listeners.
I feel pop music has always been "pop music" only that GREAT stuff used to be VERY popular in the past. That has been filtered out. Never mind The beatles,zeppelin,floyd,stones,the who
If there are such greats equaled to the Bee Gees, The Eagles, Elton, Earth Wind & Fire, Chicago (ALL POP STARS) out there than the industry has decided to keep them OFF the radio and TV.

I don't believe they are out there even on the internet. You show me a group that has songs catchier than Chicago's and plays as well and even half as many,as they do anywhere on the internet, and I will see it, acknowledge it and buy it in a heart beat lol..

Ever watch The Last Waltz?

Oh it's a real beauty contest. Dylan, Neil Young, Joni, The Banned etc.... Before MTV you sat next to radio, couldn't see a damn thing, only used your EARS for music. Now turn on the radio.. Your eyes have become your ears... very common habit humans have

Last words on this subject

1-Let the kids have there fun and THERE music.

2- You want great? than be it yourself that should keep us busy enough.

3- "I can't truly diminish things I can't do" even if something is less than good or even crap (technically) Well if it is so beneath us then what's stopping us from doing the same thing and getting a HIT song finally??? Making loads of money so we can sing & play ANYTHING we want regardless of the biz...

4- Try to find and see the positives in most things first, you'll learn more that way. Only don't ignore the negatives and such... You need both, it's balance, learn from that as well. It's safer & smarter. Much of one is hidden in the other.

5- No matter what it is try to put all your energy, passion,love and focus on who and what you love most. It's all that really matters.

Did I mention - "I love this place"

"4- Try to find and see the positives in most things first, you'll learn more that way."

Think negative but talk positive is key IMO

Nobody cares about analysis, even if it's a great one, but everyone wants to hear about new stuff.

So keep the reasons for yourself, and just come up with new stuff.. that's how any good business 'spins' around, I think

Mike...... strange as it may seem you will not find anyone more positive and encouraging than me. My pet hate as you are probably aware is right wing exploitation and people who get undeserved success. Most folk only remeber these posts. I have been exploited all my life but still remain positive. I love to help up and coming acts but like a dog to a bone am compelled to chew when anyone mentions Simon C or SHALLOW pop music. Do not get me wrong some of the pop music is pretty good...but some of it is woeful. I do not blame the stars so much as the SCs promotor types of this world. God I nearly signed myself for one of them in the late sixties. Narrow escape....fame is not all it is cracked up to be if you know what I mean.

yup. worked for Lennon and McCartney. Seriously, wouldn't collab work if both or more parties wrote down the ground rules rather than assume process or outcome. jes saying

I just went to your site. You may be slow but man, you write and sing some damn fine songs. Good on ya.

In that case Jim you will love this song despite the language. With one simple four minute song this guy just blew the music biz to smithereens. Your mileage may vary but this is pure genius. Much like the "United breaks guitars" song. Don't go there if strong language offends or someone who breaks barriers like Chris Rock does. You've been warned. :-)
But if you struggle through you will never listen to a typical pop song in the same way again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Gs4xGw1Eg&feature=channel_page

riddle me this Marc. The beatles were together TEN years before they broke big. They had chops or the 10.000 hours it takes to get good at anything. how many three chords and a cloud of dust wannabe's make it because they are cute or whatever flavor is current. No-one would wait for another "Beatles" today.
would they? ok, maybe in Nashville but where else?

I'm a Beatles disciple, but that's not such a good thing if you want to make money as a recording artist/performer. The wheel has turned, and what they did no longer flies: you have to fit into one genre. You can't get signed to a label segueing from "Honey Pie" to "Savoy Truffle" to "Cry Baby Cry".

Unless you already have 100,000 fans...

Lucky me, I'm not trying to make money at it.

Carthehorse,

I don't know if there would be another Beatles. I think they all find their way. I will tell you this. That the waiting time now for songs from the time they are written, to the time they get in the pipeling to getting out there and becoming hits, are sometimes between 5-8 years. Most acts take three years of developement from being signed to having a release out there. and most never see the light of day.

I look at many friends of mine, Keith Urban, Brad Paisley, Big Kenny of Big and Rich, and know how long it took them to get anything out there. How long it took songs that I first heard being played in writer's rounds and open mics years ago. I know the people who never went anywhere.

Someone said the Beatles were around for 10 years before they broke big. That is just about any one that has ever been in the business. The BAND did their movie, the LAST WALTZ after ten years and most of the people had not known who they were until they broke up.

It is the nature of things. It is the same way now as it has always been. It is populated mostly by people who are above mediocre, flash in the pans.there are a few recognized genuises in one way or another. And there are a LOT of people who should be farther along, but for whatever reason self inflicted or just the "way things are" don't get the breaks.

It is fine to talk about all this, vent if we want, whatever. But when it comes down to it, any of us can only be responsible for the 15% that we can do something about. Write, perform, record.The rest is up to other people, other things. At the end of the day, I just don't see a lot of upside in complaining about anything, at least for me. I would rather find things that work and spend my time exploring that.

Better to light a candle than curse the darkness.

MAB

Marc--

"Better to light one little candle than be alone in the dark" Fred Waring" when I was a KID.

Remember the green book?

I have an old copy--52000 song writers in Nashville, about 450 making enough money in music to not need a day job. I had to make my money in Photography and Electronics--to allow me to be close to the music, that I love. Money is not #1, it's just ahead of whatever is 2nd.

Any song in production, is there to bring in the BUCKS--Who will buy this song????

I remember Skip E. had a song "Gospel according to Luke". I drove down town to see if I could find "Luke". I bought the Sheet Music and Record--Because the song touched me. That doesn't happen much anymore in today's GIN MILL PRODUCTION.
It is more difficult to tell who the artist is, because of all the recording effects used in production. I still think SAM PHILLIPS had a killer operation in Memphis--small but had that sound.

As usual, Just my opinion!

Mackie Humphries

And today more than ever. Collabs between man & robot.

John

Lol... OK, I'll play.
Tell us John, how does an "actual original musician" collab with a robot?

Well a lot of artists collab , probably dictated by labels . Leaving the endless debate on AI out of it .Luke Combs did Fast Cars , maybe cuz he wanted to to cover Tracy Chapman .

BRILLIANT!

its a great cover. I like her vocal more but this was an outstanding cover.

odd how Chapman could write such a huge song and never write anything else...least not at that level. Gimme one reason was pretty good.

But basicly shes a one hit wonder

Tracy Chapman never wrote anything else? One hit wonder??? You missed a couple of good songs:

- Baby Can i Hold You
- Talkin' Bout A Revolution

She had a couple more....

All the best - Robert

Yup and lives in a mansion in San Fran , you don't live in mansions on one hit . But she's not a loud mouth like Taylor Swift . She's pretty laid back .