JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Ande's Lyric Writing Tips

anyone using these?

Terrific --- thanks very much. Your ideas clarify many things for me.

Tom

you're welcome
now go write hits

ande

This tip is genre specific. It is a good tip for country music lyrics but not such a good tip for hard rock or heavy metal, where lyrics can often be very mystical and poetic.

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now
It's just a spein clean for the may queen



The above is not very conversational. Neither is the following:

Wake up,
Grab a brush and put a little (makeup),
Grab a brush and put a little,
Hide the scars to fade away the (shakeup)
Hide the scars to fade away the,
Why'd you leave the keys upon the table?
Here you go create another fable

You wanted to,
Grab a brush and put a little makeup,
You wanted to,
Hide the scars to fade away the shakeup,
You wanted to,
Why'd you leave the keys upon the table,
You wanted to,

I don't think you trust,
In, my, self righteous suicide,
I, cry, when angels deserve to die, Die,

Wake up,
Grab a brush and put a little (makeup),
Grab a brush and put a little,
Hide the scars to fade away the (shakeup)
Hide the scars to fade away the,
Why'd you leave the keys upon the table?
Here you go create another fable

You wanted to,
Grab a brush and put a little makeup,
You wanted to,
Hide the scars to fade away the shakeup,
You wanted to,
Why'd you leave the keys upon the table,
You wanted to,

I don't think you trust,
In, my, self righteous suicide,
I, cry, when angels deserve to die
In my, self righteous suicide,
I, cry, when angels deserve to die

Father, Father, Father, Father,
Father Into your hands I commend my spirit,
Father, into your hands,

Why have you forsaken me,
In your eyes forsaken me,
In your thoughts forsaken me,
In your heart forsaken, me oh,

Trust in my self righteous suicide,
I, cry, when angels deserve to die,
In my self righteous suicide,
I, cry, when angels deserve to die.

Chop Suey - System of a Down



And then there's Kurt Cobain

load up on guns and
Bring your friends
It's fun to lose
And to pretend
She's over bored
And self assured
Oh no, i know
A dirty word

Hello hello hello, how low?
Hello hello hello, how low?
Hello hello hello, how low?
Hello hello hello

With the lights out it's less dangerous
Here we are now
Entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us
A mulatto
An albino
A mosquito
My libido
Yeah

I'm worse at what i do best
And for this gift i feel blessed
Our little group has always been
And always will until the end

Hello hello hello, how low?
Hello hello hello, how low?
Hello hello hello, how low?
Hello hello hello

With the lights out it's less dangerous
Here we are now
Entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us
A mulatto
An albino
A mosquito
My libido
Yeah

(solo)

And i forget
Just why i taste
Oh yeah, i guess it makes me smile
I found it hard
It was hard to find
Oh well, whatever, nevermind

Hello hello hello, how low?
Hello hello hello, how low?
Hello hello hello, how low?
Hello hello hello

With the lights out it's less dangerous
Here we are now
Entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us
A mulatto
An albino
A mosquito
My libido
A denial
A denial
A denial
A denial
A denial
A denial
A denial
A denial
A denial


Smells Like Teen Spirit - Nirvana

hey rblight,

I think tip 2 covers it,
plus tip 38 which I haven't written yet
which is

"artists can do whatever they want, it just needs to sound good"

should these be included as tips:

a. The more you've worked on a lyric the more likely you are to be blind to its flaws and the more eager you are to want to say it's done and move on to the next one.

b. Some lyrics are worth revisiting and rewriting,
others aren't and were just stepping stones to your next ones.

I continue to go back and read this list of tips. I find that the more songs I write the more meaning I find in these tips. Thanks very much,

Tom

Hey Tom

You're welcome
Glad to hear they're helping you

ande

anyone using these?

Ande

Hey Andy,

First off, thanks for all these tips...several I already knew, but others, I was like, DUH, what was I thinking? Plus, it's nice to have this concise list to refer back to.

It seems I never have enough time to write, but no matter what's going on, my song radar IS on 100% of the time. My family and friends are constantly subjected to "hmm, there's a song in there somewhere". Just in conversation here on the boards, I find that happens a lot..."HOOK ALERT!"

So here's at least one person using your tips -- and I suspect there are more than a few others....

Cheers,
Beth

Ande, to let you know, this tip saves me a lot of worry. I can now jot down the beginnings of something and leave it for later, confident that it's all not "here" yet. My mind will work on it while I'm doing other things. And every time I come back to it, I see and add new things! So, thanks for that bit of wisdom!

Kristi

hey beth

thank you glad to hear it

ande

Hey Kristi,

You're welcome.

Songs come to me in bits and pieces. Very rarely complete & fully baked. Also overcome the desire to drown them at birth. When I reviewed rewrites that helped me and my cowriters finally arrive to our final draft, some of the early drafts were pretty bad.

I'm a big believer in the set aside technique. I'll set lyrics aside for weeks, months & sometimes years. Then come back to them.

Great songs are co-re-written.

Ande

Great post Ande. Always nice to have a point of reference to go back to, even when experience tells us we don't need it. One thing that always stands out to me is the need to listen - a lot.
"Why isn't my song better than it is?" "What makes that one work so well?"

There will always be dissenters around structure and method, etc., and certainly exceptions to everything.

Anyway - well done.

Barry

Ande:

Wow,you really know your stuff!

This is perhaps the most concise, complete and accurate list of songwriting tips I've ever seen. It took me more than 250 pages to say what you've summed up here. Of course, I included a bunch of song examples and more than a dozen stories of serendipity, self-destruction, recounting decades of close calls on my road to eventual victory (an experience, BTW, I wish on every creatively compulsive soul who applies him or herself to achieving songwriting success).

Anyway, I'd add only a couple of comments to your brilliant treatise.

First, songs (as copyrights) actually have only two essential components - music and lyrics. Music comprises the melody, the chordal context of the melody and the rhythm (including the relative length and dynamics of each note and the spaces in between).

Secondly, every song needs a "concept." That might be what you're getting at with your reference to "themes" and/or "ideas." By concept, I mean the characters, the story, the message, the point of view. A title is usually meaningless in and of itself. After all, what does "Yesterday" mean without that forlorn, heartbroken man longing for it?

So, as we keep our radar up and collect new song ideas and titles, we will need to paint them into a landscape that captures or re-captures a moment in time, or a period of time, or projects a wish upon the future, AND demonstrates a point of view. And, you are so right. Songs are, first and foremost, emotional things. That's how they communicate.

All in all, you have provided great wisdom in this post. As a pro in this biz for nearly 40 yrs, I take my hat off to the blogger from Texas.

Thank you for sharing this with the JPL family.

Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author - Makin' Stuff Up, secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz
www.makinstuffup.net

Thank you Barry,

I wish you the best with your songwriting

Ande

Wow Rand, thank you, what an honor. I just stole bits and pieces from everyone & everything I've ever learned about lyric writing & songwriting to make it what it is. Every writer needs a frame of reference.

You're right lyrics & melody makes a copyright.

What people hear on the radio is music, melody, & lyrics. I feel like melody is most critical, and sometimes there's really cool things in the music that makes a HIT a HIT. Ear Candy. Stuff people love to hear. Over & over. Mind Meth.

Like the cool signature licks:
the Bass line in Lou Reed's "Walk on the Wildside,"
The Instrumental intro of Shania Twain's "Man I Feel Like a Woman,"
The Guitar Riff in "Heaven" by Los Lonely Boys
Intro to "LaBamba"
Guitar Riff in Aerosmiths "walk this way"
Prince was great at this in many of his huge hits in the 80's
There's thousands I love.

You're right! Every song needs a concept, something that makes it stand up & be unique. The challenge we all face is every type of song has been written, we need to find new interesting ways to communicate something that millions of people connect with, with a unique distinct melody. No one has ever quite put it this way. Sometimes it's putting together 2 common things in a new way.

Taylor Swift is great at writing songs that connect with millions of teenage girls.

Katy's Perry's Hot n Cold tells off a wishy washy person in a super catchy way.

Rascall Flatts "What Hurts the Most" by Jeffrey Steele & Steve Robson is a thing of beauty with it's raw emotion & killer melodic changes.

I think Zac Brown Band's "Chicken Fried" is one feel good catchy song with a touch of Patriotism

I recently heard & really liked Pat Green's "What I'm For"
It fell into my Wow!-I-wish-I-wrote-that-song list

I look for how people (who know nothing about music & songwriting) react to a song. The true measure of a song is "Fan Reaction." Sometimes I feel songwriters can be unnecessarily overly critical about songs, especially their own.

Rand thank you for sharing your wisdom.
Folks oughta grab a copy of "Makin Stuff Up" by Rand Bishop

Ande Rasmussen

Interesting thing about this song and perhaps an encouragement to folks out there..... the song is not recent. It is several years old (I think at least 4 years old) before it became a "hit"

great advice Ande,I find all of your advice very helpful to me(a newbie)I remember some of the advice that I first learned when I signed up with SongU,was that there are a lot of rules that you should apply when you are songwriting,and there are times when you just need to throw those rules out the window.After hearing some of your music,it does seems that you have mastered the art of when to follow the rules,and when not to...and "Eventually" is absolutely beautiful...my teenage daughter thinks its about her and her BF...lol

Hi Michelle,
I'm glad you find my advice useful
there's more if you go to http://www.songwriterblog.com
then click on messages
songU is great,
if folks want a trial membership they can drop by
http://songu.com/ifs

I feel fortunate to be a cowriter on Eventually.
It's a break up song. Glad to hear your daughter likes it too.

Keep writing, critiquing, & studying songwriting, you will improve as a writer and your songs will be stronger.

Ande

anyone using these?
you might find them helpful

ande

Truth:

"artists can do whatever they want, it just needs to sound good"

Ande, is the mail list still active? Just wondered, haven't received anything for what seems ages...

Chap

that's true artists can do whatever they want, though
what if you're a songwriter who's creating songs for singers and artists to record and perform?

hey chapman,

I haven't sent one out since

here's the home page for IFS
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/DIFS/

here's the IFS Message Archive
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/DIFS/messages

anyone using these?
I believe they'll still work

tony on songramp
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.php?userid=13425
posted this

instead of sharing your lyric ideas,
SET THE DAMN LYRIC ASIDE
and talk to each other and come to an agreement on
WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY
in each part of the song...
keep it simple...
you have to decide:

First: what is the general storyline?...
just sum up the what you want to happen in the song from beginning to end -
NO LYRICS PLEASE...
here is where you should decide where you let the listener in on the twist, if there is one...

verse
decide what you want to say here to set things up? ...
don't share the lyric, just decide what part of the story you want to tell here...you might talk about how you lead into the chorus (no lyric!)

chorus:
what is the central idea you want to drive home here - you might discuss possible working hooks at this time

verse 2:
how do you use this verse to move the song through time and/or to share some completely different angle on what started in the first verse...whenever possible you want to use the last line of this verse or a lift to give a new reason to repeat the chorus - it's cool when it's a little different type of lead in than you used at the end of the first verse...you can discuss that in general terms...

chorus
whenever possible, you want the second singing of the chorus to provide a little more insight into the central idea - you do this by the way you choose to lead into it - you can talk about that here...

bridge:
how can you use this to say something that hasn't been said elsewhere in the song - often this is the place to put the twist and really send the listener off into the last chorus with an "aha!" - and a complete understanding of the song...

all of this discussion can take place without sharing ideas for a single line in the lyric - one of the problems you've been having is that in your posts, many of you are sharing valid ideas for the song WITH maybe a so-so lyric idea to accomplish it (or vice versa) and that's where you lose each other i think these should be kept separate - especially when trying to coordinate so many people's opinions on one write...

my advice at this point: i would get together even now and agree on these issues - then go back to all the stuff you've accumulated lyrically, and see what accomplishes what you want it to...don't force it!...write new stuff if it doesn't fit with your vision for the story in each part of the song...

hope this helps...
tony

How's everybody's writing going?

Anything cool happening?

Ande

Great tips, Ande. I think Scott Rose and I went through much the same process when we wrote "Born Again Barbie" (except we were usually tossing random lines at each other the whole time). We discussed Barbie's motivation, and history, and her problems with Ken (and the impact of Ken finally coming out of the closet), and why she'd turn to religion and how it fit in with her being a role model (if a somewhat airheady one) for girls. And then everything fell together almost instantaneously. It does work--and you get a good product out of it.

Joe

Hey Joe,

Glad you like my tips, I hope they help more JPFers strengthen their craft and REwrite stronger songs. Great songs are Co-Re-written.
"Born Again Barbie" sounds hilarious, do you have a link to it I'd like to listen

Write On,

Ande

These might help writers write better songs.
Study hard
Build your craft up to the point where you can write exceptional songs

Still lovin' "Eventually"! Still completely baffled why it's not being covered by a major artist though Dave Brooks sings like one already! Great, great, great song!!!

http://www.songramp.com/mod/mps/viewtrack.php?trackid=12739


Best,
Lynn

Thank you. It was the first good song I ever cowrote.

http://www.songramp.com/mod/mps/srplayer.php?type=hipub&trackid=12739

we got several demos of it

Halie Loren
http://www.songramp.com/mod/mps/viewtrack.php?trackid=61657

Alex Anders
http://www.songramp.com/mod/mps/viewtrack.php?trackid=12740

Alex's brother Adam is the music producer for Glee
http://www.andersmusic.com/about-us/
http://www.myfoxla.com/dpp/entertainment/television/Glee_Adam_Anders_20091015
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/glee-music-producer-adam-anders-186441

Hows your writing going?

Ande

still in love with songwriting

Halie Loren Rocks!

Halie Loren seriously rocks.
She is simply amazing

I've had the great fortune to have her vocals on the following songs

All Of Us Together

Safe In Your Arms

Dreamer and Her Dream

That Magic

Send Me Out

Eventually

Blue Holiday

I Resolve (the New Years Resolution song)

My Forever Family

Pieces of Her Past

and my biggest mistake was
not having her sing on more

She is a super sweet person and I love her sound. She just launched her latest CD "Heart First" and re-released her holiday CD "Many Times Many Ways"

Ande,

You've had over 42K different people read this, (a click is one unique visitor IP clicking on it) so I'd say since the numbers keep growing, folks are still using it!

Brian

Wow that's crazy!

just looked at CDBaby, Halie Loren's latest isn't up there yet but they do offer

STAGES

After Dark

Full Circle

They Oughta Write a Song

Halie's latest is Halie Loren: Heart First

In 2011 she rereleased Many Times, Many Ways by Halie Loren and Matt Treder (2011)
I'm thrilled & honored that she included Blue Holiday that I cowrote with John Gillam.

Here's a youtube of her performing IN TIME
that she used to help Japan's Earthquake victims.

10) Move People
Well written songs emotionally move listeners.
Well written lyrics emotionally move the readers.
Songs need to be universal this means many people can relate to the song’s story or situation.
We write songs for our listeners.

This one makes sense.. songs should be an instrument of moving people to be better.. super LIKE on this!!!!!



15) Titles
Every song has a title. Titles are the songs' brand. The title is the most repeated phrase in the chorus. It's the phrase that sticks in people's heads. Find a word or phrase that DEMANDS ATTENTION. The title usually summarizes the song.

problem sometimes is some songs has great contents yet poor choice of title sometimes makes them less attractive.



_________________________________________________
These blogs keep the fire of music burning in me:

www.scarysquids.com
www.audiomasteringman.com

Thanks, good luck with your writing.

Ande

kinda crazy this thread has now had over 86,000 views
how's everyone's writing going?

I joined the site not long ago. I've recently fell for songwriting and have written a few. Each one seems to get a little better as I learn the tools needed to execute them properly. I've found this thread to be very helpful. Thanks for all the postings!

Ande does a great job. Can't believe I've known him so long already. Time flies. His contacts and knowledge built up from persistent work forward is certainly one to mimic for anyone out there.

Brian

Hi Justin,
Welcome to the community, it can be pretty overwhelming when you get bit by the songwriting bug. There's no cure. Just write more songs. Keep studying and learning.

you might find this info helpful too
http://groups.yahoo.com/messages/DIFS

Thank you Brian
Where have the years gone?

Hi Ande

Yep, I'm reading your tips. As to the bits and pieces, I'm with Kristi, I get them all the time. I was chatting in an email to my song writing mentour months back, finding many Hooks, in many of my emails to him, and also they were just coming to me. Well I got one, that is so perfect, Not a title in the world like it, and once it's written, no one can ever use the same title again. But currently it's not flowing for me, and one day me and my mentour when I do get to Nashville will write this song. I've still got lots of learning to do.

Co-writing is good for me, and collobarating seems to work well for me too as I haven't the experience just yet. Here is my latest on the Mp3 forum, love it if you checked it out. Yep a great collobaration, which I'm sure you'll love too.

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10768122

Sitting here this morning on JPF, this song came to me, and I haven't written in months, yep still needs lots of work, but I have no doubt I'll get it right with a little help from my friends here on the boards. It's called "In A Minute", one for me and my little girl to record. I really want to write for my daughter now, as I'd like to see more songs for children in Country Music. When I take Elliza who is 10 yrs old to our Country music practice nights, the songs are way to old for her to sing, or the lyrics are not appropriate etc, so I feel strongly to write songs for her hey. Hmm, I better go read about structure, not sure if I've got that right with "In A Minute".

I've been reading your tips again today, and I'll keep reading them.

Yep, I had to give it a Bump so I didn't have to go right back through the posts so I could read it again.

Edit, eek, I don't like number 11.Lol.

a.) only using title words in the chorus

Ande, I don't think I can get out of putting In a minute in the verse hah, other wise I lose the story. Can I get away with it being Country Pop? Donna just showed me on the lyric 3 forum regarding my question. Yep you are right, and so is Donna. What I need to do is start a folder up, and put in it all the developments, critics, changes made to the song and label each change, then I've got it to always look back onto, as suffering with Post Traumatic Stress, doesn't help much as to remembering important steps to help me grow as a songwriter. Edit, eek, now I'm up to 12 The building block, structure, mine goes VVCVVCBC is that ok Ande? Back to reading your tips. Yep Donna offered some great suggestions, I'll see what others suggest too.
Thanks Michele

In A MINUTE! (Mum and daughter song)Yep I know the lyrics are still not right, this is just my first draught. What I enjoy the most about working on a song, is it's development from beginning to end. So addictive, and lots of fun.

VERSE (MUM)
Elliza Jane can you lend me a hand
There are dishes to be done
Our clothing to be washed
Those now smell and begin to stand

VERSE REPLY (Elliza Jane)
Mum I’ll be there in a MINUTE
I’m a little busy on my facebook page
I’m typing a message to Taylor Swift
And I'm just chatting away to her (boy) fans (friends)?
Mum I’ll be there in a MINUTE

CHORUS (Mum talking to herself)
In a Minute, In a Minute
30 minutes has passed me by
Yep in a Minute, in a minute
Sure, I’ll be there in a Minute

VERSE (Mum)
Elliza Jane I haven’t got all day
All your chores I’ve just about done
It is now, is what I meant
Clean your room and get off that net

VERSE (Elliza Jane)
Mum I’ll clean my room in a MINUTE
I’m just a little bit busy right now
Listening to “Mean” on YouTube
Singing along with Taylor Swift
Mum why do you have to be so mean?

CHORUS (Mum talking to herself)
In a Minute, In a Minute
2 hours now have passed me by
Yep in a Minute, in a minute
Sure, I’ll be there in a Minute

BRIDGE (Mum & Elliza)
(Elliza) Mum can you make my lunch, (Mum) In a Minute
(Elliza) Mum can you get my cloths, (Mum) In a Minute
(Elliza) Mum can you brush my hair, (Mum) In a Minute
(Elliza) Mum can I go to my friends, (Mum) In a Minute

CHORUS (Mum singing it to Elliza)
In a Minute, In a Minute
The day has now passed us by
Yep in a Minute, in a minute
Sure, I’ll think about it in a Minute
In a Minute, In a Minute
Sure, I’ll think about it in a Minute

Edited by Michele Howlett (Yesterday at 10:02 PM)

Another thing to consider is each song has 1, 2 or a few themes
AllMusic.com has a list of many at:
http://www.allmusic.com/themes

Hi Michele Howlett,

How have you been?

Glad you like & use my tips.

" finding many Hooks" can be a problem,
I found many more than I could write

"Not a title in the world like it, and once it's written, no one can ever use the same title again. "
You can google a phrase by putting quotes around it. You can search for a phrase in PRO & music databases. You can't copyright a title.

"But currently it's not flowing for me, and one day me and my mentour when I do get to Nashville will write this song."
Don't wait for Nashville

I've still got lots of learning to do.

Co-

Sitting here this morning on JPF, this song came to me, and I haven't written in months, yep still needs lots of work, ...
"In A Minute", one for me and my little girl to record.
~ isn't it fun when you write a new lyric especially after a dry spell

"i'd like to see more songs for children in Country Music. When I take Elliza who is 10 yrs old to our Country music practice nights, the songs are way to old for her to sing, or the lyrics are not appropriate etc,":

)

Edit, eek, I don't like number 11.Lol.
a.) only using title words in the chorus
~ remember these are tools not rules for songwriting fools. Guidelines

Ande, I don't think I can get out of putting In a minute in the verse hah,
Maybe, there's other ways to say I'll get around to it

Structure, mine goes VVCVVCBC is that ok Ande?
The structure is fine
Looks like vcvcbc

first draught = first draft?

Michele, I read the lyric, to me the biggest issue might be, I think you wanted to write a lyric for pretweens like your dau. But because of the bridge it's really a song for moms. The gist is I told you to do something, you put it off, when you want me to do something I'm going to put it off.

To get kids to do what you want them to all you need to do is change the WIFI password then give it to them when their chores & homework are done, inspected & approved

I think the chorus needs short phrases and to be more rhymey

I think songs that kids love will be about them, from their POV, about relationships & situations with other kids.

Study
Taylor Swifts earlier songs
The climb Miley Cyrus
Pink Raise your glass

Hi Ande

I could of been better! Golly gosh, I seem to find those abusive people who take advantage of yah. But I'm good now, I just finished doing a Domestic Violence Course, I learnt a lot, feel heaps wiser, and have the knowledge to know what to watch out for in the future. 50yrs old next year, and I feel I'm just starting to live life, hows that hah. I'm single, happy, and I've got back to where I belong, songwriting.

Ande, I have lots to learn, and thanks for pointing out (Looks like vcvcbc) so I learnt something new today, Cool.

"Not a title in the world like it, and once it's written, no one can ever use the same title again. "
You can google a phrase by putting quotes around it. You can search for a phrase in PRO & music databases. You can't copyright a title.

"But currently it's not flowing for me, and one day me and my mentour when I do get to Nashville will write this song."
Don't wait for Nashville


I wish I could copyright the TITLE! It's UNIQUE in it's own RIGHT!

You are absolutely RIGHT, I'm not waiting, my Mentor is to busy, so Stan Good and I are working on it now, and it's looking great. I can't wait to be able to show you, my unique title that I thought of, YIPEE! Stan he's an amazing writer to work with, and this song is gonna ROCK! I'm very excited!

As to the song "In a Minute" yes, it is a duo, Mum and Daughter song,(and thanks, you gave me a few other idea's for the song) Stan and I have achieved that, but before I post songs up now, I want to get the melody, go over the lyrics like a fine tooth comb with my producer, because I've found when Rodney starts writing the music for the song, Yep those lyrics can change, and it's all worth while when it's finished.

Childrens songs, thanks for your advice, I will google Taylor's and those others you've mentioned, because it's certainly a challenge writing songs to suit a 10 year old. I'm going to start listening to words that she come's out with, story idea's, and go from their.

Ande, your TIPS are excellent! Thanks for the FREE advice, because I financially live from week to week, single Mum now, but I'm doing it, and I'm proud of my recent achievements, especially coming from the bad place that I've got us out of, and I'm excelling in every way, and so are my two youngest children.

Hooks, I save everyone that I feel has potential, when I see them. This songtitle I never lost it in my mind, and I'll let you know when we post it up on the Mp3 forum for you to listen hah? It's just about finished, waiting on Stan, oh golly gosh, he hasn't been on the boards, EEK!

Hi again Ande

Oh I couldn't wait, please check it out hah, we are very excited about this unique title, song.

A song is never finished, until it's finished, so yep, we will see what others say, and we'd really appreciate any feedback you give us before we put this to Music Ande.

Thanks Michele/Stan/Rodney

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/984813/page/1#Post984813