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Hi Rand,

I agree with your sentiments: I've seen many people have vague aims in terms of getting their songs heard.

I'm currently experimenting with a new approach to marketing my music: I have two songs that I've prepared to sell, with optional copyright. I don't know whether it's appropriate to post the advertisement on the forum or not. Could you advise?

Thanks!
B Tait

Hi Rand,

I agree with your sentiments: I've seen many people have vague aims in terms of getting their songs heard.

I'm currently experimenting with a new approach to marketing my music: I have two songs that I've prepared to sell, with optional copyright. I don't know whether it's appropriate to post the advertisement on the forum or not. Could you advise?

Thanks!
B Tait

Thank you Rand and Marc for gracing our JPF boards and lending your expertise and humor so generously to our JPF creative community here. Welcome neighbors!! You are among many friends who like you, simply love songwriting!! Appreciate your insight.

Best to both of you,
Lynn

Lynn,

Glad you are here. Any questions or thoughts?

MAB

Hi Marc,

My questions:

for the sake of quite a few of us here I was wondering:

1. If we are non-performing songwriters and we can't get to Nashville (although we would if we could) for varied but legitimate reasons ranging from work commitments, caretaking, finances, disabilities, you name it, and we want to pitch our song(s), then given that restriction, what is the next best option to being there. Is pitching to publishers via Songwriters's Market or TAXI our only hope and are they both something you would pursue if hypothetically you could not get to Nashville? Do you know of any personal testimonies where a song got cut as a result of a little brown bubble mailer that reached the right ears at the right time and it was the right song.

2. What about when you have music outside the country genre. Where does one promote music that might fit the adult easy listening genre. Does everything get filtered through Nashville or do people go to New York and LA in person to promote their songs?


My thoughts:

Thanks for offering to hear my questions!!

Best,
Lynn

Post deleted by Marc Barnette

Marc: There are a lot of folks that are NOT going to like what you are saying -- but keep saying it. I think if folks really find out that they probably will NEVER get a major cut from their home writing, it will free them up to do what's important.

If you're an outsider and have to write songs, keep doing it. Co-write with friends, get folks here to put it to music (why waste money on pro demos) and post the songs here for us to listen to and comment on. Help friends here complete their songs, do the FAWM.org, RpmChallenge.com and 50/90 type writing exercises -- and most of all keep trying to write that great song. If you have made enough friends, maybe lightning will strike. Just don't expect it.

Kevin

Post deleted by Marc Barnette

Guys Marc didn't just give a death sentence, what he said was work your skills till you are ready for the big game AND that the big game takes place in Nashville. I have been to Nashville twice...I learned enough to know I am not ready yet. I took NSAI's 101 course...I recommend it. You learn up front and personal about successful songwriters. so much of this bussiness is not a cakewalk...Turning life altering events into songs the general public want to hear. Its not easy but at the same time so easy...

so, I continue to write and I have found a mentor who is on the inside of Nashville. I am not ready to leave my nest and if I did as soon as I open my mouth Nashville will know I am not ready yet....There is a lot to learn, thats why someone who has been writing for 10-15 years becomes an
"overnight success" ....LOL

Keep writing!!

Post deleted by Marc Barnette

You both are saying the exact same thing just have a slightly different spin on it. I went and reread what Rand said, same thing. Ya have to be there to win.

As a writer I do want the golden goose....who doesn't...:)
my steps are smaller at the moment because of personal responsibilities....but I still take steps....I laugh when I think back three years ago and the guy I work with said it takes about 10 years to get noticed....lots of perseverence and patience...my response was "no not me, I'm a quick study"...LOLOLOLOLOL.....

He just grinned and went uh huh....again that was 3 years ago....

The only thing I don't understand after reading all this is why the stuff on the radio is such unadulterated crap that I cannot stand to listen to it, even though it is well produced and performed.

Well, "I" don't know if there is an answer I think music is a personal taste issue..."Just got started Loving you" made song of the year is that song crap? Maybe some people say it is...but the writers wrote for the artists vocal pattern and the artist had something to say...he was newly married. Crap not crap I don't know. alot of people could relate to what he was saying...

Wow Marc, I read your post twice just to make sure I didn't miss anything. Appreciate so much all the ink. You must drink a strong coffee. Nah, I have a feeling you are a naturally up kind of person and it is so evident you love what you do. I am envious in a healthy way of course that so much of your day is surrounded by things of a musical nature. I write alone and I also have had the privilege of collaborating with a few fine folks here on JPF. It has been a wonderful experience in so many ways. It's kind of like we're brothers and sisters in song, almost spiritual if you will. God bless you (looks like He has) with many more years of doing what you love and "touching people's lives" in the process. Thanks again!

Post deleted by Marc Barnette

Marc, I am a practical person, that is why I never buy lotto tickets, your chance of winning is next to nil. I never send songs to song contest, if you win you still have nothing but boasting rights. I guess I've been holding off from joining Taxi for the same reason( and you confirmed it) your chances there are slim to none of ever getting a major break.You may place a song or two on a soap show paying a little money,but that's about all.

I know things can be tough in any sport or business where big money is at stake. It is not always the best that makes it, it is those that are willing to do what ever it takes to make it, and it is not always pretty. If I was a less practical person in my younger days, I would have likely went to Nashville chasing that elusive dream, but instead I stayed home, worked at less than glamorous jobs, raised my family, did all the practical things. But I'm foolish enough to believe that there are talented people, be it writers, singers, musicians, etc. that took the practical view and never went to Nashville or where ever. They are still in their home towns, still with their talents, likely sharing those talents with their neighbours and friends, who question why they never went to Nashville because they are as good or better than what they are hearing on the radio. It is rarely the practical person that makes it in a big way, often the less talented but more self confident, Devil may care person is the one that makes it. They have a dream and they go for it, I'm not saying it is wrong, but if they don't click and make it, they may find themselves middle age with nothing to show for it, not even a family.

Life is not fair, never has been and never will be, it is nice to know when the deck is stacked against you, for practical reasons, but not nice to know for dreaming reasons. I believe everyone has a right to dream and believe that talent will float to the top, like cream on milk, but in closed, mutual admiration societies, out side cream is not welcomed.

There are many sharks out there preying on the dreams and aspirations of those trying to make it, but it is very sad to know that the legitimate business has excluded the rest of the outside world, willing to fish in over fished lakes where there are fewer and fewer prize catches. The biggest losers in this scenario is the listening audience.

As I'm not the administrator of this forum, I don't know what's kosher regarding promoting your business. It's a touchy subject. Maybe Brian could weigh in on this.

I'm always reticent to overtly promote or advertise in this context. Brian has built an amazing community of creative souls who are all trying to find ways to improve their work and expose it to the right people.

I don't know what your ideas are, but I'm sure they are worth discussing in terms of how effective they might be. The ethics of using this forum to promote your work is another issue altogether.

Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author Makin' Stuff Up (secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz)
http://www.makinstuffup.net

Post deleted by Marc Barnette

Everett:

You gotta be in the game to win. Every song you write is literally a lottery ticket. (And it has about an equivalent chance of creating remuneration and recognition.)

You know the story about the devout old man who, after years of penitence finally asked God for one thing... "God, I've never asked you for anything before," he prayed. "Please let me win the lottery." Weeks went by. The man didn't win. So, he prayed again, repeating his plea. "God, all I've asked is to win the lottery. Why have you denied me?" The thunderous voice of God came down from the sky, "BUY A TICKET!"

Every time you engage in networking or send one of your songs out in to the world (Taxi being a prime example) you are learning about your work and you are putting your work into the culture. Songs are about communication. How do they communicate if nobody hears them? How do you know if they are communicating if you don't give professionals a chance to listen and offer their critical opinions? (You can take it or leave it, but you can't do either if you don't share the work.)

There's a big difference between being a "practical person" and being a "self-defeatest." By not buying a lottery ticket (entering your songs in contests, attending conferences, joining Taxi, etc), you are pretty much insuring that you will not win. You're creating a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author Makin' Stuff Up (secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz) http://makinstuffup.net

Post deleted by Marc Barnette

Rand and Marc,

I do believe we have a forum for advertising personal services (don't take that the wrong way)...:) cause we do have JPF'rs that provide demo services, voice lessons, etc.....This way that thought can be taken off the table. JPF'rs will know where to contact you if needed.

If we don't maybe that is something we should have, writers looking for help living out of Nashville might feel "safer" with qualified referrals from JPF.

Anyway it is something to think about.
Brian will have to decide.

Would that be a song hooker? (lol - sorry)

On the services thing, Rand was making a direct reply to Benjamin Tait's question about Ben's "marketing ideas". He wasn't talking about his replies or Marc's comments. Of course, if I am wrong about that, then I just added to the confusion (LOL!).

Kevin

Kevin,

I am going to start a different thread so that I am not walking so much on these. I'll clarify my positions there.


MAB

LOL

I've used a partial quote of yours, Below Marc!!...and Welcome Rand!! Nice to have you here too.... This is really cool of both of you to spend time here! and share. We sure hope you both stay!!

A good friend who used to frequent these boards a long time ago...and never told me she was a publisher until about a year later...sat me down a few years back and gave me the facts of life (music industry version)talk....that you gave above, Marc. So It was good to see you spell it out so clearly on the boards, thank you.

Still....
I don't think any of us should be discouraged..., I am hopeful...and will continue to be hopeful...for a larger opportunity some day....but until that time, I'm going to work on growing....and adding to those smaller opportunities
you've mentioned. Because there ARE opportunities out there...

A few weeks ago....Calvin and Joice...posted that one of their
songs...was being used by a non-profit state organization. Ya know...it took initiative....and going after it!!!

"Find artists online who might not be superstars but you might be able to pitch to." ...Ande Rasmussen...has had so many cuts from finding and making friends with folks who are on their way and sets a great example.......

This morning...Joe Wraebek posted that He may have been the first Local....to be invited to Play at the....oh dern....
all I can think of is...the Critter Ball...but that's not right...sorry Joe. How cool is that?

Vikki Flawith is getting placements through Taxi... after
she's said...some beginning struggles....

Al David...is having some of his instrumentals used and considered for Film..... How cool?

Scott Campbell wrote a song...that was played at the
Home Opening Phillies Game in 08....The world series winning
Phillies...There were several board regular JPF'rs....involved in that...I know I'll forget names...but John Daubert and Sub (Mike Caro) come to mind and John.....

I believe Harriet Ames...was used to bring a Man out of a Coma...with her music recently.... To me this tops them all..and is a beautiful testimony to songwriters....

Dave Rice shared an adorable idea he had with songs....A musical...that was used in Schools and Sung by kids!!....

Last week I received a call from a publisher and found out during the conversation that 2 songs I'd given up on ...but had signed contracts on 2+ years ago....were still going to be coming out in Print...small $...but the royalties are consistent.

and the list goes on!!!...

There's opportunities out there....while we're growing...
and I won't stop dreaming ............

best to all...
Kaley

Kaley,

That is exactly the point of threads like these. There are many forms of advancement and many joys to be experienced. Most writers will make less than $2000 in their life times so it is not a good bell weather to have an amount of something to judge success. It is about how many lives you touch.
I started a different thread that I hope will clear up a few points of views of mine. I invite you to read all these posts as it is how we all learn. There are many people like Rand and myself that do try to help. I hope you let us.

MAB

I wrote a stupid ditty called "Fartin' Man" when I was in college, way back in some other administration. An absolutely ridiculous tune with very few words, no chorus, no change-ups. I made an even stupider recording of it last year just for a quick laugh at JPF and posted it, all just for kicks. Took about a half hour.

The right person heard it on SoundClick, and last week I signed a nonexclusive licensing contract to include it on the soundtrack of a new xBox 360 game called "xFart". No joke!

You never know.

Post deleted by Marc Barnette

OMG! I can't believe you just made my song the butt of a joke.

Honestly!

Thanks Marc!

what a shitty thing to do ! !

GREAT Thread, thanks Rand ! !

Mark just stuck in his thumb and pulled out a plum!

Colin:
Sometimes playing small ball leads to the home run. Take "Wind Beneath My Wings" for instance. That song had been cut a dozen times by indie artists before I think Nancy Griffith cut it and then Bette Midler for the copyright making recording.
It's my philosophy (for better or worse) that every cut is meaningful because every cut gives the song more exposure. Some writers don't agree. I've never had the "Wind Beneath" experience. But I hear all the time about big artists cutting songs off of smaller, indie projects. There is a big difference between the money earned by a little cut and a grand slam (I've had a lot of the former and only one #1, so I know). But, songs are like vacant lots - they might sit vacant, somebody might pitch a tent, and then a big investor might come along and build a skyscraper. That's when you have a tenant with a long term lease on some prime real estate.

Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author Makin' Stuff Up (secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz)
www.makinstuffup.net

Rand,

Thanks for that answer. It would seem to me that any well-performed exposure is better than no exposure at all!

Colin:

You're absolutely right - exposure is the key word.

BUT (big but!) - you have no guarantee that an artist is gonna interpret your song in a way that makes you happy. Once you let that baby play on the playground, it might be gigglin' or it might skin it's little knees. I've had artists (of the "highest caliber") make wholesale changes in my songs - without so much as asking for permission. I write about that in my book. That's something we have no control over.

I make a plea in my book to artists and producers to respect the writer - we make the choices we make for good reasons. For them to decide spontaneously that a chord change or a lyric or a melodic phrase should be re-written on the fly is incredibly disrespectful. It happens more often than you might think, and it's infuriating.

However, Toby Keith actually improved "My List" by changing a single phrase of lyric. The original first chorus included the line, "Bate a hook and cast a line." Toby (a pretty decent song scribe himself) took it upon himself to change that line to "Wade the shore and cast a line." At first I wondered why he'd done that, and it kinda pissed me off. Then I realized that he really knows his audience: picture, if you will, a wiggly worm being forced onto a barbed hook; now picture the fisherman wading in clear, placid waters. Which is the more pleasing image? Aha! The song is now a better song with wider appeal.

So, on a rare occasion the artist might make your song better with a change in composition. It's more likely to drive you crazy. But, know you're not alone. Every songwriter goes through that. And, hopefully, just hearing that little song you made up one day being performed by some gifted musicians and singers will be thrill enough (even if they do play the wrong chord in the bridge).

Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author Makin' Stuff Up - secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz
www.makinstuffup.net

Mark:

Congrats on your fartin' triumph. You never know where your next success is gonna come from. You just keep writin' and know that good things are happening.

Does anybody thing Todd Rundgren would have thought that "Bang on the Drum All Day" would become his most lucrative copyright?

He probably wrote that song in five minutes and recorded it in a couple hours. Yet, you hear it attached to sports events,
commercials and films all the time. Probably makes a half-mil a year.

It also goes to show you that folks are eager to hear songs that make them feel good. And, honestly, farts are always funny, regardless. Aren't they? Even Shakespeare thought so.

Rand Bishop
Songwriter/producer/author Makin' Stuff Up - secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz
www.makinstuffup.net

Hey Marc and Rand:

Just a brief note to tell you how much we "minor leaguers" appreciate your shared wisdom... and yeah, humor, with us. The beauty of creating songs is the instant gratification you get when the thing is "rolled out" and at least you (the writer)enjoy it... then, as Kaley says... you never know when it might just hit the right ears. (... or in Mark's case... the right noses... LOL!) Confusing... Marc and Mark. Gotta be careful to give credit where credit is due!

Best,

Dave

Here's what I always say: As a writer, I always have the satisfaction that I put my head on pillow at night having created something that wasn't there when I woke up that morning. If any of us find ourselves unable to be fulfilled by that and THAT ALONE, we should reevaluate our motivations for writing in the first place.

There is no guarantee of success and no relationship between effort and reward. Accept it. There are a lot of things we can all do to increase our chances of success. But, I surmise that there are some geniuses on the level of Dylan, Joni, Paul Simon, et al who have gone to their graves without making a single penny as songwriters.

It's a blessing and a privilege to be a writer. To be a successful writer is transcendent. That we've recognized and taken responsibility for our creative talents is a wonderful thing. Writing to get results only leads to heartache. Throw the work out there, play your songs for anyone who will listen. But, do it without specific expectations. Celebrate the process and be grateful for the opportunity to express yourself.

Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author Makin' Stuff Up - secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz
http://www.makinstuffup.net

So did Toby ask for a share of the song writing credits for making that change?

Rand and Marc,

This is excellent information and observation. It applies to much more than songwriting.

For a musician, Nashville is one of the logical moves. Once someone does whatever they can in their hometown, either growth stops or they look to find places where they can be challenged. The scene for the musician here is very similar to the songwriting scene. Instead of cowriting, we play together in bands. In a band, you depend on each other, you all succeed or fail together, so soon it becomes obvious that there are team players, hotshots who care more about themselves than the band, and dead weight. A good example of being a team player is found in rhythm...the "groove."

The drummer is the groove boss. Some great drummers speed up or slow down a little in certain phrases. The other players can either go with them or try to stay "on the beat." The ones who stay "on the beat," even if they are metronomically perfect, are wrong. They kill the groove. Only team players make the groove into something magic.

Hotshots, on the other hand, think it is all about them. They often do not listen to the band, but expect the band to listen to them. A true virtuoso is a team player. Watching Yo Yo Ma with the Nashville Symphony, it was obvious that he blended in and followed Maestro Giancarlo Guerrero's conducting expertly.

Then there's the dead weight. They are along for the ride, there for the paycheck. Often they do not respect the music. Some players will come here, wanting to get a lot of work, but they really don't like Country music. They'd rather be playing Jazz or Metal or whatever. You can hear it in their playing.

It's a lot like songwriting.

So thanks, fellows. Your points are a source of enlightenment. You are providing an important educational experience, not only to the songwriters, but to anyone interested in the business of music.

Agreed. And thanks, Rand, for the kind words. I always knew that if I ever made a dime off of a song, it would probably not be the one I expected.

I've been absolutely consumed by your strong suggestion that we stick to the positive. I'm currently kicking out 14 songs this month for the FAWM (February is Album Writing Month) challenge, which is to write 14 songs in 28 days. Now I know that for you, that's probably an unacceptable number, even on a vacation month. For me it's tough because I work 60 hours a week and have a family and a house, etc. Whatever though...the point is, now that I look back on the last five lyrics I realize how much negativity is still there in the lyrics, even the funnier ones. Dang it.

In interviews when Paul McCartney looks back on his Beatles catalog, he often expresses how proud he is that their message was essentially a positive one, all about love and fun and peace and good feelings. I wonder how many of us can look at our own catalogs and say the same. Songwriting is such a good way to exorcise our demons, that I believe sad songs are probably twice as common as all the others put together. It's always easier to bitch, isn't it? So your advice is resonating with me, and I appreciate that.

My Dad used to ask what kind of idiot would try to make a living at something like music, or any art for that matter. Kind of like George Carlin's take on drivers, the slow ones are all idiots and the fast ones are all maniacs...well, sometimes it seems like songwriters who are trying to make a living at it are all fools, and the handful of successful ones are geniuses.

But you can't make the goal if you don't take the shot.

Here's to the fools! God, I love 'em all.

Everett:

Excellent question.

No, Toby didn't ask for a writer's share for making the lyrical change. However, he did become a co-publisher of my share of the copyright.

I will be writing and posting a discussion telling that story soon. I'm sure it will be a provocative subject to delve into in this environment.

And, if you're interested in some of the stories of how several of my over 200 cuts came about (and how I shot myself in both feet numerous times and still got up dancin'), I highly recommend that you read my book. It's "a songwriting course wrapped in a memoir."

Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author Makin' Stuff Up - secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz
www.makinstuffup.net

Mark:

Actually, I find little virtue in writing songs in volume. I admire writers (like Hugh Prestwood and Terry Britton) who write maybe a dozen songs a year - but every one is honed to perfection.

I've probably averaged about a song per week over the last ten years. Part of that is because I'm a big believer in writing, getting feedback and re-writing until I get it right. As I only write the songs I know I can dedicate myself totally to on an emotional level, I feel justified in spending as much time as necessary to wrestle each one to the canvas and pin it's shoulders for a count of three. And, as I spend at least three additional days making a demo, I can't crank 'em out the way a lot of other writers do (nor am I interested in "volume sales").

Regarding positive songs - yes, we all have a tendency to dwell in the negative, because life is complex and challenging and stressful, etc. And, for writers, it can be even more difficult, because of those pragmatic distractions you mentioned (kids, mortgages, day jobs, etc) that we deal with in addition to our creative compulsions. The majority of the public doesn't want to be reminded about those things. As far as they're concerned, anybody who gets to be creative is lucky. So, unless we frame the challenging themes in a way that empathizes with their experience, our "negative" songs will miss the mark. There's a big difference between "whining" about one's problems and sharing the challenges in a truthful way.

And, just because you may mention challenging stuff in a song doesn't mean it isn't ultimately positive. If the message in the end is what McCartney was talking about, then the challenges are overcome. Just don't preach. Keep the lessons coming from a personal place - as in "this is what I learned and how I learned it," instead of "this is how you should live your life."

All the success...

Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author Makin' Stuff Up - secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz
www.makinstuffup.net

Rand,

Again, excellent information.

How about demos? What do you want in a demo? Do you aim "for the market," or try to sound different? What do you find most important in a demo?

Rand:

Mike has asked a question near and dear to my heart. I am fairly prolific and just cannot afford to have my songs demoed (unless you know somewhere I can get radio quality for free... LOL!) due to the cost involved. A songwriting friend is still working a big bucks day job and his songs are demoed in Nashville for big bucks... sound marvelous... and still he waits... 'cause it's so difficult for an outlander to find someone who will listen.

So... do you aim your demos for the market... or try to achieve something special? (Or does it vary, depending upon the song?)

Dave Rice

http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/DaveRice

Demoing is critical. I tell every burgeoning songwriter to learn to be a producer of great demos. Once again, this is a process - but every songwriter knows somebody with a recording studio. Hang out, learn the vernacular, learn to read and talk about charts, learn about effects, eq, compression, reverb, etc. so you can speak articulately in a studio environment.

Back in the '80s I used to drool over the Fairlight - for just a mere $150K you could have a digital workstation with 8 tracks of 16 bit digital recording. Now, you can put together a home studio of similar quality for three grand or less. There are thousands of options, but it's worth the investment for a number of reasons. First, because you'll learn on the job how to produce. Second, because you'll be in complete control of which songs get demoed. Third, because as you develop your engineering and production chops, you can barter with talented players, programmers and singers - give them time in your studio in exchange for a guitar part or a vocal, or visa versa.

I made the demo for My List in the attic of my house on an 8-track hard disc recorder. It didn't cost a penny, and the song has grossed over 2 million bucks. If I hadn't made the investment in my home studio and taken the initiative to spend the several days it took to demo the song, I never would have had a number one.

The production style depends on the song itself. While I always think that something unusual and extra creative can make a demo stand out from the pack, many songs just cry out for that Top-40 radio mainstream treatment. You either want your demo to sound like it wants to be programmed every 20 minutes by Clear Channel, or you want it to have a certain quirky charm that pricks up jaded industry ears. (The danger with "quirky" is that some of these people have no imagination as to how the song might be produced any other way.) But, for me, throwing in an unusual instrument or background vocal or structural idea (when appropriate) is always more appealing and fulfilling and makes me want to listen to it. If you have your own home studio, you can experiment with different instrumentation and mixes.

Bottom line is if you have a strong enough desire to make great demos, you'll find a way to do it. For me, waiting for a publisher to demo my songs would be unacceptable.
As much as possible, I need to be in control of which songs get demoed and how the demos sound.

And BTW, there is a whole chapter in my book on The Demo.

Hope that's helpful.

Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author Makin'Stuff Up - secrets of songcraft and survival in the music-biz
www.makinstuffup.net

Rand,

Thanks for this point.
"Just don't preach. Keep the lessons coming from a personal place - as in "this is what I learned and how I learned it," instead of "this is how you should live your life."

I have always been told "If you just tell the story, the listener will find themselves in it."

Steve

Thanks, Rand:

Suspicions confirmed! This was a very enlightening response and we appreciate your sharing with us immensely.

Dave Rice

Anyone seen that can of "Troll Be Gone?" Ah.. there it is. Since the troll said he was leaving multiple times on his own, we'll simply take him at his word and look forward to surviving without his keen wit and intellect.

Disagreeing and engaging the discussion is one thing. Even being obnoxious is tolerable to a point. But when you devolve to useless drivel for the sake of being annoying, it's time to move on.

It's pretty clear that he had an axe to grind with several entities around here. It's been a while since the troll family and their minions popped in, so we can only hope they crawl back into the cave they slithered out of for a while.

Brian

Hey Brian,

Can I get a refund for the 20 minutes of my life I wasted reading through the Troll's writing in the hope that there might actually be something worthwhile?

Midnite