JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Why explain abstract lyrics?

Why explain abstract lyrics?

Feel free to disagree and join the debate. I refer to no one in particular here, these situations used to come up all the time...

I don't understand how, when an author puts a one-to-one correspondence between a symbol-rich test or otherwise abstract lyric--how this does anything, other than diminish this writing from future readings, which must then be "misreadings", since the author himself has supplied the "keys"...

Example of what I'm talking about:

Song lyric (Mr. Author (C)2009):

Quack, quack
boom boom,
gob smacked by
duck soup

Critique:

Nice little action poem. A haiku-ish foray into hunting at close range.


The author:

"interesting take, Mr. Critique, Actually, I was reading the "tibetan Book of the Dead" while standing on my head, while thinking about the making of "Demi-glace" which is basically 40 cows reduced to a cupful of thick brothy essence, and applying this to the idea of death in today's fast-food society. "We" are the duck, "gob-smacked" is the fabric of society being ripped apart, "boom boom" is a reference to Oppenheimer, and Quack is the sham our society has become..."

But your take is interesting.

**********************************************************************

No matter how nice the author tries to be, in these situations I always feel like there is an undercurrent of "if you were more perceptive, you would have known the true meaning of my work." I realize this is (most of the time) a projection on my part, but nevertheless, I always feel really crappy when "my interpretation" is way off from the authors. Authors "own" their texts, and no matter how hard the effort to release them for "open interpretation", readers MUST defer to an authors own reading of his/her own text, once made.

Thank God, Dylan or Lennon/McCartney had the good sense to keep their meanings to themselves. If I knew that Dylan meant "Mr. Jones" to stand for "Big Brother", or Lennon's "Walrus" to be the "scapegoat" and the egg man, the "scapegoaters"...does knowing this ADD or DIMINISH future readings? ...curious...you never heard a Dylan or a Lennon explaining their lyrics.

Often times, the authors "key" to his/her lyric IS as arcane as the one I've described, and yes, there are probably some lyricists who do play a game of "look how much smarter I as than you" but for the most part this all happens innocently enough. I don't think any of us are guilty of doing this...

It might simply be the nature of communication, and how words trigger different things in different people. Language is slippery, but that's what makes it fun, and why the text must continuously be added to, rewritten, and otherwise explored...

I might enjoy reading how an author came to write what he wrote, but I wake up the next day and that lyric means less to me, MUCH less, for now my imagination cannot turn towards it, and do its thing.

--Mike

Very interesting topic here.....
I will depart until later in order to see how this thread grows....

I always take the easy way out, Michael.
I avoid critiquing abstract lyrics. If I haven't worked out what the author is trying to say by the end of the first verse or at least chorus, I simply move on. For me, life is too short to try to read someone's mind.

(Perhaps there should be a separate section in the forum for abstract lyrics. I'd probably post one or two there myself. )

Donna

Good point: why explain at all? Unless someone wants to know. But as you said: curiosity might "kill" your own imagination.

Hi There,
Strangely enough, I answered a very similar question this morning on another forum about one of my own songs ! Here's the excerpt from my answer explaining how I feel about it -

'The whole point of any song that's finished is that you release
it into the public domain and let people interpret the song as they
see fit. I liken it to having a child and giving it up for adoption.
I could write the greatest song ever written and 50% of the world
wouldn't like it. There would most likely be thousands of different
interpretations of the lyrics by listeners and who am I to argue with
them ? If one of my songs is liked by, or touches one persons life in
a way that they can identify with, then that song is successful IMHO.'

Regards,

Keith

I like the freedom of drawing my own conclusions/ meanings from abstract lyrics. It’s kind of like personalizing the lyrics to fit my desires.

Abstract lyrics are interactive lyrics. They require the listener to find his/her own meaning.

Most the time though I prefer being hit over the head with down-to-Earth lyrics. There’s a place for both, though a smaller audience for abstract lyrics.

John

My favorite example for this is Don McClean's American Pie

I think its like any information though.
Some people want to interpret and imagine. Some want to know.
An author should put out an explanation separately, rather than forcing it on the public.
Those that seek, will find what they are looking for in the facts,
Those that do not seek, will find what they are looking for inside themselves.

Here is a relevant part of the wiki on American Pie:

When asked what "American Pie" meant, McLean replied, "It means I never have to work again." Later, he more seriously stated "You will find many 'interpretations' of my lyrics but none of them by me... sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence."

McLean has generally avoided responding to direct questions about the song, except to acknowledge that he did first learn about Buddy Holly's death while folding newspapers for his paper route on the morning of February 4th, 1959 (referenced in the song with the line "with every paper I deliver").

Despite this, many fans of McLean, amongst others, have attempted an interpretation; at the time of the song's original release in late 1971, many American radio stations released printed interpretations and some devoted entire shows discussing and debating the song's lyrics, resulting in both controversy and intense listener interest in the song.

Well, you seem like a thinker, Michael.. starting a thread like this :-)

I'd like to defend the 'explainers' position, at least as long as the song is still in process. I agree any time, that as far as finished song marketed to the public, no particular explaining or 'set up' should be necessary, allthough certain song require a little talk before they start and still works.

But as far as a song that is still in process, and if it is peers who are doing the critique'ing, everybody understands that songs most often come with an intention from the writer. Even if this intention is not relevant anymore when the song goes public, peers can assist and support the writer in his/her intention, ending up with more satisfaction doing songs.

I'd say, there is nothing as good for creativity as confident integrity, and peers could support each other by accepting to discuss how the writers intention with the song best can be achieved. This is also craft, I think, as songwriters most often are not the 'average audience', and it feel just as pretentious if they should act like they were, while talking with peers about songwriting.

Well, thats my dollar on this..

Uh,
Would ja run that by me one more time?

Hi Magne,

The critical point for me, Magne, is when the writer's intention is made clear. If it's at the top of the post, a peer can turn his focus towards what the writer is trying to achieve.

If it's announced after critiques, I wonder as to the writer's true intention. I think it may have innocently been to see how folks respond, with no steering, as in "is my intention achieved without influencing the reader?" And if THAT is how a writer proceeds, I would argue that THAT particular writer is indeed treating the reader as an audience and not peer.

If treated as a peer, the reader/lyricist would be privy to what exactly it is the writer "is trying to achieve" aka his/her intention. When "true intention" is announced late, it's often very awkward for the reviewer, who can understandably feel "Shanghai'd" or embarrassed or stupid...or angry...If it was me I might say "Well, why didn't you say so in the first place, I could have been reading with my eye out for that."

But the truth is, most of us "writers" want our cake and to eat it too: we both want uninfluenced reviews, AND for the reader to understand our intentions AND whether or not we achieve them, ALL with a simple "let me know whatcha think" at the top of the page...and I believe such a reader is being treated as an "audience" by such a writer, or at least
momentarily like a "guinea pig" ...'til the writer announces what's really goin' on..almost a "you've been punk'd" kinda moment...

--Mike

I don't think they should be explained UNLESS someone asks, and ALWAYS try to avoid the udercurrents... the thing is , IS the undercurrent really there, (in your example I agree, seems to be self agrandizing pseudo intellectual bable for it's own sake, but it is hard to understand "tones" and motivation when reading peoples posts or an authors explanation.. either way I think it only hurts the interpretation if YOU let it.. I have read the bible many times over and have many people (many of whom are very knowledgeable about the subject) have given varied interpretatons, and (granted the author himself only directly intervenes in the spirit) I have never felt less about a previous interpretation because of an expanded later interpretation.. it just makes me realize MORE about interprative symbolism.. and about MYSELF ....and hopefully about the author...

As to the WHY of explaining, I personally think it comes from a NEED to be accepted by a group , a need to connect. it's as basal a need for a social animal as is food, water, and air.. so sometimes it's just about the authors need. (just my opinion of course..) to me it is very much the same as the questions, "Why does one wirte a lyric "in plainspoken language" and TRY to connect with the audience.. Especially lyrics that contain a moral lesson, or a "higher message" granted the explanation is contained within the lyric, but the need for connection would seem to be the motivator to at least SOME degree.

I agree that there is a clear distinction between WIP lyrics on a review forum and something a writer considers a "finished product" for public consumption. The level of abstraction in the lyric is somewhat irrelevant, or at least in the eye of the beholder; I've seen the most clueless and bizarre interpretation of lyrics that I thought were completely transparent. No comment on whether this can go the other way...

There are a whole lot of ways in which a lyric can work or not work even if the lyric is basically unintelligible. For example, lot of rap is meaningless gibberish to wack mofos who ain't "down", but it's still possible to appreciate how the words work sonically and rhythmically.

I think the confusion experienced by the OP is really a reflection on the writer not being aware which category their lyric belongs to. If you think you're posting a finished masterpiece, but people are consistantly finding interpretations that are strange and unpleasant to you, or missing the sublime message you intended, it might not be the reviewer's fault... I think a writer who prefers to explain their intention without being willing to take advice on board is doing themselves a disservice in this situation. But if by way of explanation the songwriter can understand some specific of where the lyric went wrong, and find a way to bring the finished product closer to their intention it can be really helpful.

I saw a thread on another songwriting web site about Dylan's song You Ain't Goin' Nowhere. Somebody started a thread asking what that song was about. Most people said they didn't know. I have not heard of any quote by Dylan explaining it. You Ain't Goin' Nowhere happens to be one of my favorite Dylan tunes and I don't know what it means either. I just know it makes me feel something.

I think songs are like paintings or any other art form. Sometimes you have a Jackson Pollack and sometimes you have a James Whistler. I think a good song achieves a magical marriage of words and music and makes you feel something. Most people who write are just responding to the voice or music they hear in their head and heart. I don't think there are many who want to be vague, they are probably just rolling with the muse.

I often read the Tibetan Book of the Dead, while standing on my head, thinking about the making of Demi-glace when I write too..

Hi Kenneth,

For me there's a big difference in regards of abstract and plainspoken lyrics.

In plainspoken lyrics the intention of the writer is usually self-evident and there's no need to speak of it, unless it is not readily apparent. I can imagine writing/singing a love song meant to show how conceited and unlovable the singer is. This "kind of" strategy is practiced by Randy Newman: it's a comedic, satiric turn, for sure, and I'd better explain to my peers in a forum what my intentions are, or I'm dead meat, LOL...
So there are some exceptions...

But with more abstract lyrics, the reader is starting out with something "strange" to begin with, so talking about what "one is trying to achieve" is certainly natural and welcome, but for most of us it's not comfortable territory for reviewing...I would rather know up front (from the author) what he/she wants me to pay attention to, so as to concretize, somewhat, how to approach the lyric...

--Mike

LOL

BTW LOVE Leonard Cohen...

Hi Danny,

Funny...I always felt that if I ever figured out American Pie, that I'd never have to work again...hmmmm....

--Mike

Well, as someone who writes the odd abstract "artistic" lyrics, I have, against my better judgement, sometimes explained my lyrics and it bugs me to do so, because I really like people to find their own meanings in anything I write. And the worst thing is, the people you end up explaining the song for are the ones who don't like the song anyway, and learning what the song really meant never alters their opinion! NEVER! But you can detract from someone else's enjoyment of the song by revealing it doesn't mean what they thought it did.

So I will never explain my songs from now on - not even under torture.

Lucian.

Well said...perhaps it's the nature of "posts and threads" that keeps this from happening more openly and honestly, for perhaps some are afraid to go back time and again to another's thread in fear of making a nuisance...certainly when really trying to be helpful with abstract writing, it's something that is not easy in one post, all at once, but is a give and take process that could go one for several posts...I would hesitate to do this in fear I was making the other party nervous, and would probably PM them to continue...

--Mike

Hi Mick. Interesting topic indeed. There have always been artists who sing songs that years later people don't know what they meant. I'd like to see what happened if Lennon or McLean posted thier lyrics on a site like this back before they recorded and released them and asked opinions. I've always been taught "if you have to explain a lyric then it's not a clear enough lyric". Now I don't think that can apply to an abstract lyric very well. Then again I wonder what a person that writes in the abstract hopes to accomplish with thier song? Great thread

Steve

Exactly...we feel compelled to explain because we feel, at least for the moment, that "if they knew what it was really about, how could they not help but enjoy it" and, as Mr. Cade points out:

It's human nature to want to be understood

To bad it rarely works out that way...

..and yes, if I had a book of meanings to Dylan songs, I would hope I would get rid of it before I spoiled Dylan for myself forever...yes I would be curious though...

--Mike

Thanks...

THAT would make a great comedy skit though...

A PHONY THREAD as if Don Mclean posted American Pie for reviews. LOLOLOLOL....

Hi Don,

I like what's going on here, you have some great images, but honestly, I lost interest around "Helter Skelter" and anyway "swelter" is a pretty dodgy wordy...hows about

Funny bunny
in a house that's sunny

K-O-S

I'm having a hard time following the story line, too, Don. You have too many characters, it rambles, and rambles. I think if you get rid of everything except "the Jester" you have something. Why is he on the sidelines? Might be interesting to know.

--Mike

****************************************************************

Actually, we could do a whole book of those, that would be hysterical

I'm with you on liking both, JB...

Sometimes in the same song...One of my favorite artists, Tim Buckley had a lyricist for a while Larry Beckett who would right real straight verses and then the chorus you were meant to feel...The Album "Goodbye and Hello" is just amazing like that:

(Goodbye and Hello Buckley/Beckett (C) 1966)

Title Track (Goodbye and Hello)

The antique people are down in the dungeons
Run by machines and afraid of the tax
Their heads in the grave and their hands on their eyes
Hauling their hearts around circular tracks
Pretending forever their masquerade towers
Are not really riddled with widening cracks
And I wave goodbye to iron
And smile hello to the air

O the new children dance ------ I am young
All around the balloons ------ I will live
Swaying by chance ------ I am strong
To the breeze from the moon ------ I can give
Painting the sky ------ You the strange
With the colors of sun ------ Seed of day
Freely they fly ------ Feel the change
As all become one ------ Know the Way Know the Way

The velocity addicts explode on the highways
Ignoring the journey and moving so fast
Their nerves fall apart and they gasp but can't breathe
They run from the cops of the skeleton past
Petrified by tradition in a nightmare they stagger
Into nowhere at all and then look up aghast
And I wave goodbye to speed
And smile hello to a rose

O the new children play ------ I am young
Under the juniper trees ------ I will live
Sky blue or gray ------ I am strong
They continue at ease ------ I can give
Moving so slow ------ You the strange
That serenely they can ------ Seed of day
Gracefully grow ------ Feel the change
And yes still understand ------ Know the Way Know the Way

The king and the queen in their castle of billboards
Sleepwalk down the hallways dragging behind
All their possessions and transient treasures
As they go to worship the electronic shrine
On which is playing the late late commercial
In that hollowest house of the opulent blind
And I wave goodbye to Mammon
And smile hello to a stream

O the new children buy ------ I am young
All the world for a song ------ I will live
Without a dime ------ I am strong
To which they belong ------ I can give
Nobody owns ------ You the strange
Anything anywhere ------ Seed of day
Everyone's grown ------ Feel the change
Up so big they can share ------ Know the Way

The vaudeville generals cavort on the stage
And shatter their audience with submachine guns
And Freedom and Violence the acrobat clowns
Do a balancing act on the graves of our sons
While the tapdancing Emperor sings "War is peace"
And Love the Magician disappears in the fun
And I wave goodbye to murder
And smile hello to the rain

O the new children can't ------ I am young
Tell a foe from a friend ------ I will live
Quick to enchant ------ I am strong
And so glad to extend ------ I can give
Handfuls of dawn ------ You the strange
To kaleidoscope men ------ Seed of day
Come from beyond ------ Feel the change
The Great Wall of Skin ------ Know the Way Know the Way

The bloodless husbands are jesters who listen
Like sheep to the shrieks and commands of their wives
And the men who aren't men leave the women alone
See them all faking love on a bed made of knives
Afraid to discover or trust in their bodies
And in secret divorce they will never survive
And I wave goodbye to ashes
And smile hello to a girl

O the new children kiss ------ I am young
They are so proud to learn ------ I will live
Womanhood bliss ------ I am strong
And the manfire that burns ------ I can give
Knowing no fear ------ You the strange
They take off their clothes ------ Seed of day
Honest and clear ------ Feel the change
As a river that flows ------ Know the Way Know the Way

The antique people are fading out slowly
Like newspapers flaming in mind suicide
Godless and sexless directionless loons
Their sham sandcastles dissolve in the tide
They put on their deathmasks and compromise daily
The new children will live for the elders have died
And I wave goodbye to America
And smile hello to the world

Hi Keith,

I much prefer your simile of "giving up a child" to mine of "ownership"...

I think your way, too, when I think of all my unfinished songs (screaming, hungry kids begging for attention)...

Also, the idea of "the gift" makes for good karma; a gift thrown out into the world, a gift (back) to the world....

Cheers,
Mike

Mr. Cade makes a good and simple point: that it's human nature, or at least the need to "be understood" is...

Thing is...when I wrote abstract lyrics, I strung words together that resonated a certain way; I had no top-down overarching approach...Writing was part of a ritual that involved "altering my senses" and getting to a place where words, themselves, were magical...and whole lines could be downright earthshaking....ah the good old days...

--Mike

Now, Donna, the thing is...the whole performance can change everything...even if its an author reading aloud...but give an abstract lyric a piece of music and an attitude, and the meaning can come flooding in...

--Mike

Sometimes the abstract lyrics are just a vehicle for the vocal instrument to impress otologically. I think I just said that it sounds nice.

Great thread! I try not to be too presumptious when interpreting lyrics. More often than not, I find my solution to be faulty or downright wrong.

I'm one of those authors who sometimes explains what it really was later. I do it to piss people off. I try to put the deep thoughts in the song...but when I post? Well, that's another story...and probably easier to critique.

Ok, Michael. I think I hear your point. You want the position of the critic made clear beforehand by the writer setting up his needs prior to the subtexts, so that the writer by stating his/her intentions doesn't establish a defensive discussion on who is right about what and why?

I agree with that to some point, depending on the participants, as one can certainly initiate a defensive discussion by expecting too much of each other. If the whe writer explains the lyric after the fact, without setting the dialogue up properly beforehand, it can seem disrespectful to the critic, making the critic look bad and not displaying any will to consider the suggestions made.

This makes it an etical issue, I guess, if we think of it in relation to writer-critic relationships in our feedback forums here at JPF. So I'd agree that the better the discipline and the dialogical skills of the writer, the better the feedback experience overall.

I'd let it rest there, as I think this is a good point, Michael.

I love your obervation that abstract lyrics are interactive lyrics. I think of it in open and closed terms, like the open lyric is the one where the listeners are to fill the meaning in the blanks, and the closed lyric is the one where the meaning is guided more closely with concrete examples. The open lyric type then is more demanding at first glance, and you can more easy relax and just feel entertained by the closed one.

Allthough things are not all that simple, as the human brain fill in blanks all the time, even with closed type of songs (country is a genre that rely on redundant texts), as we still need to relate the particular text elements to our personal life experience. A little different with functional songs, but this is why you never really know what chatches on, I guess.

If we go into the craft dimension of these issues, the author Sheila Davies has put a lot of thought into her brilliant formula for making songs universal. It is from her brilliant book "The craft of lyric writing" p.102 stating:
You go from the personal to the general to the particular = universal.

Just a must read for everyone interested in these issues, who haven't already read it.

Another issue is how to deploy it in every work, thats hard work! But I guess, attainable. Another discussion is if it desireable, though. I think it is an absolute in country to aim for redundant universal lyrics, in Davies sense, but universal as you point out Michael also could mean abstract. And I guess this goes for a lot of pop/ rock and other genres.

The question is really about taste: music for the heart or music for the mind? :-)

Andrew,

I believe you're absolutely right.

"There are a whole lot of ways in which a lyric can work or not work even if the lyric is basically unintelligible"

Yes, I say thank you for the music! Also when we write on the lyrical parts of a song, we sometimes forget that music basically comes from our everyday speech, that is enhanced and dramatized to work in songs. Thats how I musicate - reading the lyric, finding its melody, try to put some sections to the fore over others etc. Every expression can work musically, and the twain are unbeatable :-)

And a lot of what is accepted in terms of abstract and plain is to be found in the categorizations of songs. You mention our own categories in relation to the writer-critic relationship, but also the genre categories contain information about the level of acceptance for abstract lyrics.

But there are exeptions to be found, even in country, and thats what crossgenre really means isn't it? But, I guess genres are developing (I don't like the word 'evolve', as plenty of recurrent trends are to be found) fast these days. And if our minds are evolving, we might slowly beging to accept a higher degree of abstract lyrics in the mainstream as well.

Please don't respond to my posts in this thread, I can't find more time to do this..

Well, now I really gotta go. Need to work to break into the music industry :-)

Shades of Nastradamaus, he wrote that way so the church of the day would not understand and punish him for his views. Abstract lyrics and abstract art leaves me cold. Art of all kinds should relay a message to people to understand and relate to, not confuse and turn off. Maybe abstract writers and painters want to appear to be more intelligent than the rest of us, while covering up a lack of skill to communicate on a level of the average person.

I agree, Michael. When I referred to abstract lyrics that I avoid, I didn't mean delicious ones like American Pie or Macarthur Park, both of which I adored, and can still sing by heart.

I was referring to the really obscure stuff that even the author isn't clear about in his/her own mind, and that's so obtuse it's difficult for the reader to resonate with it at all.

That's what I mean by abstract.

Donna

WOW,

that seems like quite a leap of logic... I would just like to say that I for one.. LOVE abstract lyrics as well as abstract art.. (not all of it, but I don't dislike it because it is or ISn'T abstract).. and I for one definitely don't think I am smarter that anyone else...

i guess your keyword is MAYBE, but I can't agree that THAT would be a valid assumption... anyomore than saying, people that write plainspoken lyrics think they are BETTER than those that write abstract lyrics... it's just a matter of taste (I THINK!)

Now I just love this song...but I shudder to think how the critiques would turn out. By Bob Dylan, from The Basement Tapes.


Lo And Behold!

I pulled out for San Anton',
I never felt so good.
My woman said she'd meet me there
And of course, I knew she would.
The coachman, he hit me for my hook
And he asked me my name.
I give it to him right away,
Then I hung my head in shame.
Lo and behold! Lo and behold!
Lookin' for my lo and behold,
Get me outa here, my dear man!

I come into Pittsburgh
At six-thirty flat.
I found myself a vacant seat
An' I put down my hat.
"What's the matter, Molly, dear,
What's the matter with your mound?"
"What's it to ya, Moby Dick?
This is chicken town!"
Lo and behold! Lo and behold!
Lookin' for my lo and behold,
Get me outa here, my dear man!

I bought my girl
A herd of moose,
One she could call her own.
Well, she came out the very next day
To see where they had flown.
I'm goin' down to Tennessee,
Get me a truck 'r somethin'.
Gonna save my money and rip it up!
Lo and behold! Lo and behold!
Lookin' for my lo and behold,
Get me outa here, my dear man!

Now, I come in on a ferris wheel
An' boys, I sure was slick.
I come in like a ton of bricks,
Laid a few tricks on 'em.
Goin' back to Pittsburgh,
Count up to thirty,
Round that horn and ride that herd,
Gonna thread up!
Lo and behold! Lo and behold!
Lookin' for my lo and behold,
Get me outa here, my dear man!

Copyright ©1967; renewed 1995 Dwarf Music

I think the problem with abstract lyrics is quite simple.

Most listeners are looking to the sand
while I'm still looking for the ladder.

Question: How many surrealists does it take to change a lightbulb?

Answer: A fish.

MARK! That has been one of my favorite jokes for years!
Figures you would know it.

Q. How many male chauvinists does it take to change a light bulb?
A. None. Let the bitch cook in the dark!

Question: how many "realists" does it take to change a light bulb

Answer: I can't understand the question without a clearer definition of the context of said lightbulb changing situation.

I'll also offer three reasons WHY to explain abstract lyrics:
1) because they are there
2) why not
3) just because

I would like to publicly apologize to Michael for derailing the train...

Hey, while I got a few folks with a sense of humor's attention, do you folks think a "parody thread" in Lyric Forum #3 would work? ...a sideways reference to this was made by newbie "blueridgebound"...Posters would act "as if" the lyric in question was never published, was wet ink, and would critique it as such...

Some could give serious critiques, others could have fun, example (Don Mclean/American Pie):

Hi Don,

I like what's going on here, you have some great images, but honestly, I lost interest around "Helter Skelter" and anyway "swelter" is a pretty dodgy wordy...hows about

Funny bunny
in a house that's sunny

K-O-S

I'm having a hard time following the story line, too, Don. You have too many characters, it rambles, and rambles. I think if you get rid of everything except "the Jester" you have something. Why is he on the sidelines? Might be interesting to know.

--Mike

**************************************************************

Would you participate in something like this, called, say, "Parody Thread #29: Jimmy Buffett/Margaritaville" ??

I'd need to run it by Brian, so let me know if you think it would be fun...

thanks,
Mike

man!! there are SOO many songs that are GREAT that read AWFULLY!!!!! even songs that AREN'T so abstract.. (and yes O.K. abstract ones too) I 'm sure there would be LOTS of people dispensing GREAT advice on making them tighter and more commercially viable!!!!

Hi Everett,

I'm sure that is true for some people, but for others, put simply:

words are music too

and, like music, they carry no exact meaning, and can only evoke different meanings to different people, no matter how hard the effort to pin them down. Of course certain idioms like country come close to this, but Country music itself loves to exploit words with multiple meanings, especially as a source for hooks.

There are abstract writers who write "top-down" and those who write "bottom-up": "top-downs" know exactly what they're try to "achieve", more times than not it's an "effect" as opposed to an "exact meaning", and go about creating something that hopefully comes close to achieving this.

"Bottom-uppers" put words together from basic cellular units: a word here, a phrase there, oooh, this goes with that, wow, I can add this....and more times than not the writer himself does not know what it means, only that it "feels right" and its meaning exists in...another dimension perhaps; I'm betting this is middle period Dylan, and most abstract lyricists: they simply put words together in a way that "resonated" with them...Any "overarching" meaning to be found usually comes ex post facto, and is just an "educated guess" by the author; if he/she does make such a guess, though, readers must defer to it, unless the author makes perfectly clear that his/her reading is just a stab at it, too...

--Mike

That's a fun idea, Michael. Might be more educational to songwriters to actually write parodies of popular lyrics.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
-the Great and Mighty Oz

Hey Donna, we're creating a hall of mirrors here, weee heeee!!!

I LOVE Macarthur Park and Webb in general, and would defend the song to my death. Now THERE'S a GREAT example of a writer changing with the times, experimenting, growing (at age, what...20 ?)...writing a "Little Symphony" as pop music, my God, and getting a British actor to sing it, to lend an air of ...regality(?) to it!!!
Nice example...

--Mike

Ooh Ooh Ooh (raises hand)!

Can we put this in the parody lyric idea in the challenge forum? I've always wanted to do a Dylan parody based on Dr. Seuss.

Something like:

The cat's in the hat
and the Lorax is back
but he's gone this week
cause' his camel got the gleeks
Yeah he's run into trouble
in his one-wheeler wubble
He was talkin' with the Who's
when he started-in to bubble
And the pale green pants
well they began to shiver
cause' nobody's fishin'
doubt trout on
the roover river

Sorry, work is making me nuts today.

When answering Everette's, mail (above) I thought of an EXTREME example of lyricists who act as if

words are music, too

...Liz Fraser's rather dada-ist
looking lyrics. If you've never heard this heavenly band (the Cocteau Twins), I highly recommend them, but don't try to make ANY SENSE whatsoever out of anything coming out of Fraser's mouth. I doubt you'll care though, because her melodies are simply breathtaking...I recommend the albums "Treasure" and "Heaven Or Las Vegas"

Fans of the band take their stabs at what Liz is singing, in fact there are whole fansites for this:

http://cocteau_twins_lyrics.tripod.com/

Here's an example fan transcription:

Ivo

Peep hole, Peach blow, Pandora, Pompadour
Pale leaf, Pink sweet, Persephone, Near our rito(ivo??)
Peep peep hole, Bit animal, Peep peep
He didn't deal, little rito, Peep peep hole
With the part animal, Peep peep, Near our rito
Peep peep hole, Bit animal, Peep peep
He didn't deal, little rito
Peep peep hole
With the part animal
(x2)

Predentive, Predo
Pra-da-da-dee

Peep hole, Peach blow, Pandora, Pompadour
Pale leaf, Pink sweet, Persephone
(x2)

Near our rito
Peep peep hole
Bit animal
Peep peep
He didn't deal, little rito
Peep peep hole
With the part animal
Peep peep
(x2)

Peep hole, Peach blow , Pandora

Lorelei

Get off the car
Kick his chain, Kick his pride
Get him soaked hit run
Lift up your toes
In my mouth
And we can make love
And we can go(x5)
We're covered by the sacred fire
When you come to me, you come to broke
(x2)

Without a doubt (x15)

We're covered by the sacred fire
When you come to me, you come to me broke
Guilty girl, Guilty boy
Get to make out
Him chocked with mousse
Lift up your toes
In my mouth
And we can make love
And we can go
(x2)

*************************************************************

Dylan's singing this in my head, really gettin' into it

How about this GEM.. I LOVE this song..

Paul Simon's
You can call Me AL

A man walks down the street
He says why am I soft in the middle now
Why am I soft in the middle
The rest of my life is so hard
I need a photo-opportunity
I want a shot at redemption
Don't want to end up a cartoon
In a cartoon graveyard
Bonedigger Bonedigger
Dogs in the moonlight
Far away my well-lit door
Mr. Beerbelly Beerbelly
Get these mutts away from me
You know I don't find this stuff amusing anymore
If you'll be my bodyguard
I can be your long lost pal
I can call you Betty
And Betty when you call me
You can call me Al

A man walks down the street
He says why am I short of attention
Got a short little span of attention
And wo my nights are so long
Where's my wife and family
What if I die here
Who'll be my role-model
Now that my role-model is
Gone Gone
He ducked back down the alley
With some roly-poly little bat-faced girl
All along along
There were incidents and accidents
There were hints and allegations

If you'll be my bodyguard
I can be your long lost pal
I can call you Betty
And Betty when you call me
You can call me Al
Call me Al

A man walks down the street
It's a street in a strange world
Maybe it's the Third World
Maybe it's his first time around
He doesn't speak the language
He holds no currency
He is a foreign man
He is surrounded by the sound
The sound
Cattle in the marketplace
Scatterlings and orphanages
He looks around, around
He sees angels in the architecture
Spinning in infinity
He says Amen! and Hallelujah!

If you'll be my bodyguard
I can be your long lost pal
I can call you Betty
And Betty when you call me
You can call me Al
Call me Al

What Black Sabbath song is that from?