JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum So Where Does Your Song Rank On Ourstage?

I made the quarterfinals in Comedy with "Dead Sexy". Interesting dynamic going on here. For about two weeks Greg Tamblyn's "Side Effects Include" was locked in at #1, never budged. Once the quarterfinals started, things changed, and he was pounded right on down to #20, the bottom of the quarterfinals.

Ya gotta wonder. I think most of the "organized" voting happens in these final days. I invite you all to check out the Comedy category and vote what you really think...maybe that will balance things out. Something tells me that Greg Tamblyn didn't suddenly go from best to worst in one day...

Well, I've been trying to get on OurStage almost all evening. For the past couple of hours my attempts simply time out. I have tried EI 6, IE 7, and Firefox. None of them will connect...always a timeout issue.

As for where I finished this month, my best entry, "Beyond Eternity" in Instrumental stayed #4 through #9 for almost two weeks straight and fell overnight to #41 three nights before quarter-finals. It worked its way back to #23, where it finished.

I made the quarterfinals in comedy but didn't even bother to vote in the competition. Early in the month I would've bet the house that "Beam Me Up" would win because of the voting patterns I observed. When my song "Up For Hanky Panky" hit #2 on 10/06, it didn't take long for it to drop to the lower teens. If it wasn't for the neutral voters, I wouldn't have made the quarters. So thanks to those who voted honestly. It's odd that the song "Common Side Effects Include" is the Top Fan Favorite and the Most Played in the comedy genre yet it has never won. I noticed just like Mark that it was at #20 in comedy when I checked yesterday. It also doesn't look good when the nephew of the winner posts the kind of comment he did. Although I graciously accept positive comments from friends and relatives, I really wouldn't consider a relative identifying himself as a relative and gushing over my song a strong endorsement that would help or mean anything to the movers and shakers in the comedy or music industry.

Congrats to you guys....

Its Flawed, but what the hey, just another way to get the tunes out. If I offended anyone with my concerns regarding channel requirements, sorry, but I call em like I see em...I've had positive feedback on the Ourstage site, however, regarding my concerns. From quarter finalists, none the less.

I know this was addressed, but I have a duplicate tune on Ourstage and can't figure out for the life of me how to remove one.....I've been snooping around my page for a half hour trying to figure it out.

Any help appreciated....

Nix that never mind....help!

Overall I think OurStage is a fun place to be. One can get exposure for their music and fans get to find artists that they may enjoy even more than the highly marketed artists that are signed to major labels. The competition aspect is one of the things that draws the fans to OurStage and benefits the artists. The monetary rewards and exposure draws the artists too. While OurStage has implemented designs to safeguard the integrity of the competition, they can not change unscrupulous artists - yes, the human factor.
Bands and artist who have developed a fan base and have a street team to help promote them have an advantage - and well they should. So OurStage should not be used as a sole measure of how good a song is. One needs to test their material by live performances and submissions to music industry people as well. Can artists fix the competitions? Perhaps.
Common sense reveals that the larger the competition - the harder it is to fix. Sheer numbers prevent artists from organizing their street team (hereafter known as PC posse)to vote in a way the would fix for themselves a spot in the quarterfinals in a large competition. Once in the quarterfinals though - only 20 artists - the pc posse can go to work by voting for their artist and voting down whoever they consider to be most competitive. Those who have a loyal fan base also are protected to a degree from those who would use PC posses to game the system.
Those who don't have a large fan base, but may have a great song, could easily fail to advance at this point. Therefore an artist shouldn't give up on a song if it doesn't win in it's genre. But what if a song doesn't even make it to the quarterfinals in it's genre. Does that mean that industry people would think it's bad too? Certainly not. Let me share an example.
I am an OurStage artist who has a song that I have performed for years. A couple of years ago, the song peaked at 200 plays per day at mp3.com (pre CNET). The song was my closer and was considered by some, my signature song. At a performance during a past Millenium Music Conference in Harrisburg, PA, Matt Pinfield(at that time VP/A&R Columbia Records and of MTV fame) caught the close of my performance with this song. Upon finishing my performance I was able to quickly pack up and leave. As I was leaving, Matt Pinfield and his entourage gave me a second round of applause and yelled across the room, "You Rock!"
This same song “Up For Hanky Panky” was entered at the beginning of July into the Comedy genre which eventually had less than seventy total entries. At the beginning of July, there were only 13 songs competing. Right away this song fell to the bottom of the competition. Since I had not performed regularly for four years, I didn't have a fan base anymore or a PC posse. It stayed near the bottom as more songs were added. As I was judging in that category I noticed that some of the quality artists in that genre didn't fair well against certain artists, that in my opinion, were well below that quality artist's material.(A quarter-finalist who's a professional comedian was shown to have lost most battles with another artist who made the quarter-finals - the margin at that time was 3% for the comedian and 97% for the quarter-finalist who obviously must have had a PC posse) Other A&R people have observed that my song was "radio morning show material" - which is great for this particular genre. Incidentally, the song has been played on commercial and college radio. So this experience shows that while OurStage has made efforts to make their competitions credible, there are circumstances that they can't control.
I had a new song I’d just recorded this year entered into an appropriate genre. It was quickly voted down to near the bottom of that genre which had around 70 songs the first month it competed and around 170 songs the second month. During that same time period “White Collar Man” song made semifinalist in the UK Songwriting Contest 2008. The song has been played on commercial radio as well as Internet Radio.
For evaluation purposes I had decided not to recruit friends, fans, and family to go to OurStage to vote for my songs - providing a constant that may be of some value in interpreting results.
It would seem to me that an artist who lives in a metropolitan area with an association group for songwriters and artists would have the opportunity to muster their members to support their efforts on OurStage more so than an artist who’s asking fans at their gigs for support. Although in the past I’ve seen spikes in plays on Internet sites where my songs were, after I performed live and directed fans to that site, I doubt if most fans would take the time to judge the huge number of battles necessary in order to do their favored artist any good. Also the age of the artist and the age of the fan bases for a particular genre factor in on success with OurStage. It is noteworthy that most of the finals winners are young and probably single and are in genres that typically attract a younger fan base. Genres like Jazz, Bluegrass, and even Country are likely supported by fans, who don’t have as much time to spend on the computer voting for their favored artists.
I entered “Up For Hanky Panky” again in October, within a week of entering it, it was at #2. It held a position in the top 20 until the quarterfinals. The previous month I had entered “Big Busted Women Flat Busted Broke” in the Comedy genre. Within a week, it moved from about 70 to 30. It received more favorites that any other song I’ve posted on OurStage – including three that have made the quarterfinals. Yet after some apparent negative organized voting (See my post “Negative Voting on OurStage?), it did not make the quarterfinals.
In judging other genres, I’ve noticed that many songs that I think are great are well below the top 20 in their genre. Let’s take Indie Rock for example. I found what I considered a “great song” by Beautiful Criminal entitled “Run”. However it only made 415 in July. Yet I listened to the top 10 in that genre for that month and couldn’t find one song that I thought was better than “Run”. Even though tastes different, I doubt if any neutral listener could justify the disparity between the number 1 song and the number 415 song, “Run”.
I also had a couple of novelty songs that could crossover to Hip Hop. Knowing full well I didn’t have a prayer, I entered. After starting in the 670s, I jumped to the 370s. But then a week later,
I was back to the 600s. It ended up under 500. More than any genre, the Rap and Hip Hop genre are controlled by the “street teams”. I have heard a VP of A&R at a major label demand that any artist that comes to his company, have a working “street team” before they call on him. The artists who are in this genre generally are not going to win congeniality awards. In fact, I’ve been threatened by rap and hip hop artists in the past, at others sites for doing rap novelty songs.
The intricacies of each genre are different. I would suppose that in genres where the artists and fans are older and more refined, it is friendlier and more honest. Perhaps in those genres, an artist could use the voting results as a fair gauge of how good a song really is. However, my
examination of the OurStage has given me reason to discount voting results as a gauge of a song’s worth. It may rather be a measure of an artist’s ability to draw fan support – provided
they are indeed fans and not some association group organized for voting. Knowing what I know about Ourstage, if I were an A&R person, I would be skeptical about big claims of success at
OurStage – especially in certain genres. Sales of songs at OurStage however would be the ultimate measurement of an artist’s commercial viability.
So in conclusion I say to the OurStage artist:”Have fun”. “Don’t take negative results as the final
word on a song.” ”Use it as a tool for exposure.” “Give feedback to OurStage that may improve it.”
“Vote for the good songs that are competing against your song because it may make any good results you have more credible.”

Well it would appear that I have been given an award for judging honestly according to the logo beside my name. The site claims that it can identify unfair judging as well as good honest judging. If that is the case then surely it would be possible to program against dishonest judging counting for anything. Those people with dishonest judging patterns votes would just be discounted. Problem solved.
According to Brian there are millions of people voting on the Ourstage site so a few rogue teamers should make little or no difference to the outcome.
I am more concerned with the transparency of the system and the "engine" used for calculating positions. If that is flawed then it accounts for more position discrepancies than anything else.
I have been keeping my eye on particular songs that I think are either very good or extremely bad and that any unbiased opinion should spot. I have a rough idea where they stand in the category. Either my opinions as a neutral (with a badge for being a good judge) are way way off or there is something basically wrong with the system as a whole.

Despite it all Ourstage is a neat site and is worth exploring and posting material for the many reasons explained in various posts. But I do not accept that positions at any time during the month or the final positions are in any way fair and accurate even allowing for fickle public opinion.

Cathy

Go to the "Manage My Stuff" page on Ourstage. Then edit the song you want removed. Go to edit info on that song. Change the title of the song to REMOVE. Then, at the bottom of the page, click on CONTACT. When that page opens, click on COMMUNITY. It will set you up to email Ourstage. Simply email them and tell them to delete the song labeled REMOVE from your profile. They'll have it off in less than a day. Hope that helps.

Eric

I have two songs in the top ten, #6 in bluegrass and #8 in comedy. I don't expect to win either category, but making top ten is my goal. Being on dialup means I can't easily judge any battles, therefore I can't vote for myself or against anyone, I have no street team to help me, so where ever my song ends up, it did it on its' own.

Congratulations Everett and Mark. From what I could tell by voting patterns all month, the current top 6 in comedy all have organized voting - and #9 has it too. I tend to do a lot of voting in Jazz at this point of the month as well as some other categories.
As for my judging rating - I went from "Honorable" to "Mighty".
I kinda preferred "Honorable".

My song in Americana finished at #13 out of 381. Not bad. Didn't even ask anyone to vote.

Unfortunately it looks like I might not be selected for the performance opportunity I was gunning for, which is too bad. Still, I was the top-ranked Washington artist in the relevant channels for both months, so I guess that says something.

Scott,

I've pushed you for that opportunity. I am sorry if it doesn't work.. but I've been plugging for you.

Brian

Scott, I'm glad your song made it into the top 20. I remember loving it when it came up for me. At least most of the top 20 does seem to be in-genre, I ran across a lot of stuff that really seems like straight ol' country or traditional in that category.

I finished the month at 282. Oh well. I spent a fair amount of time early on cruising above 100 then it just plummeted.

I've been in the quarter finals several times, but never made it to the semis. Twice, my songs were in the top ten the day prior to semis, but one dropped to #11 just hours before the semis and the other time it dropped somewhere in the teens just before semis.

Guess I need to find a way to improve my songs just a bit more. I'll be working on it.

In reference to Scott's and Bryan's comments above...I agree that the "Country", "Traditional Country", "Folk", "Americana" and "Roots" genres seem to be pretty much homogonized. You get a little of all of them in each channel. Also, I find the "Tropical Channel" and "Latin" Channel have the same issue quite often. I compete in the "Tropical" channel almost every month and see this regularly.

On a tangent issue...can someone try to explain to me the difference between "Indie Rock" and "Alternative Rock". As I judge in the two channels, I see very little difference in the genres....not enough difference for separate channels. They sound very, very simialr to me. What am I missing? Thanks.

Alan

"Indie Rock" as defined by OurStage is "less Mainstream". Now the problem is defining what is "less Mainstream". It's the same with "Pop" and "Indie Pop". The "Indie" differentiates Mainstream from Non-mainstream - which probably has something to do with what's more likely to be played currently on a Top 40, Hot AC, or Rock station.

I wouldn't waste time trying to figure out the difference between Rock and Indie Rock and Pop and Indie Pop. The answer is there is no difference. = )

Ssshhhhh! If you happen to have three songs that fit any one of those categories...

I'm just sayin'.

Thanks Brian, I appreciate that! Apparently the venue makes the final decision who to book (or at least has a big say). I'd like to win it, but I wouldn't be crushed if it doesn't happen.

Usually this two days of semifinals bounces all over the place, but Comedy has stayed pretty much the same. Either the people have spoken or they aren't really voting much this time around. I'm hanging at number 7, just happy to be there.

Scott,

That is true. All I could do is get your name submitted for consideration and endorse you. But as we've found with other opportunities, sometimes that carries weight and sometimes it doesn't.

Brian

Finished 8 and 9 in bluegrass and comedy. I have no argument with the song that won it in bluegrass, I like it.

Hi Scott. I certainly think you should be considered. However, you may want to rethink not asking people to vote. If you look at it from the venue of any performance opportunity's perspective, they are looking for artists who could draw people to come to the event(more money for the venue). One way to gauge that is how many people you can rally to support you on OurStage. While that doesn't mean that they would support you by coming to the event - it wouldn't hurt you to have organized voting. If your bio indicates some success in drawing crowds I'm sure that will press their hot button.

Everett
You enter in traditional country each month
What do you think about the song that is currently in 1st place?
Things Change

Hi Bill I had a quick listen to this "traditional Country" song problem is it is NOT trad coutry. Perhaps modern up tempo country pop but traditional never. As a song it is OK but nothing special. I do not think it deserves the No1 having listened to other stuff in the same category JMO.

I gotta agree with Jim on that one. I wouldn't think that song was out of place on my local contemporary country radio station--but it's definitely NOT traditional country. When I think of traditional country, I'm thinkin' Lefty Frizzell, Ray Price, Roy Acuff, and Carter Family, etc. I think it's a good song and I like it, but it ain't traditional country.

Eric

I haven't heard the songs, but it's not surprising the general public would choose something out of genre over the more in genre stuff. They only vote for what they like and pop country is more popular than traditional country. That's why it's such a tough job to get the genres right. But if you don't let people make their own choices, they get angry. And if you move them to the genre your staff has judged a better fit, they get angry. I've seen example of people threatening lawsuits (always an indication the people are crackpots by the way) because they were moved to a more suitable genre. I've heard the songs and they were moved correctly.. but logic and common sense doesn't matter.

It's even tougher when a song falls in between pop country and traditional country. Pop country (like Shania Twain) often has pop production, less traditional instrumentation etc. Also keep in mind that Country from the 80's and even early 90's era is going to sound like Traditional Country to most younger listeners. So if you have a specific bar set for "Country" and another set for "Trad Country" and the song sort of falls in between, you're better off just leaving it. But always know that when you do, more often than not it's going to win. That's what happens in our own awards. If we have a debate about where a nominee belongs and come to a tough decision, we always end up paying for it by that song winning. We had a song do just that last year. A band that was hard core 1 genre had a song that was slightly off their normal format. It didn't cleanly fit in a genre outside of their normal work and we debated about what to do with it. We decided to leave it in the genre that they are identified with as artists and with which part of the song matched perfectly, but another part did not. Of course it ended up winning by a large margin and many people sent us notes complaining. No imagine having to make that decision EVERY month across thousands and thousands of songs in all 50 of their genres.. it's a tough job. So if something isn't blatant OR if no one even calls attention to to it being out of genre, they're going to leave it.

Did any of you call attention to it being out of genre prior to the quarter finals?

Brian

There is no way anyone from any generation could confuse that song with traditional country.
Good spin though Brian.

I didn't listen to that song. Did it win? Where I am on dialup I only listen to those in the top ten if my song is in the top 20. In traditional country I never made it out of the top 30 this month, so I didn't pay much attention to the top ten. If it won I can listen in the winners chart.

As Bill said nice spin. Whichever way you look at it it was in the wrong category. I think if most folk are like me they will have given up reporting as it seems almost every second song has a problem this way. You feel you are banging your head against a brick wall reporting. No point in having different categories for genres if people cannot distinguish between them. As I said before there are many issues that need cleaning up this is just one.

Well, I ended up at #7 in Comedy with "Dead Sexy".

This month I'm entering all new songs:

"Lady Stardust" in Covers
"Mystery Tree" in Folk
"Ghost Writer in the Sky" in Singer/Songwriter (Male)

There's something I've noticed in the Comedy genre at the beginning of each month since it's inception. Most of the songs that made quarterfinals in the previous month end up low in the rankings for the first week or so and then have to climb up the ranks. A few quarterfinalist songs do remain at the top. Often when one comes upon these in head to head battles with other previous quarterfinalists there is a major disparity in the voting. Has this been happening in other genres? If so which ones?

I guess you can report a song as being "out of genre" if you think it might beat yours......

Wow, I am 4th in Rock Instrumental - by far my best result so far! I guess they fixed all those statistical problems!!!!!

Colin

PS - Let's see how long it lasts....

I'm at #5 in Singer Songwriter with "Ghost Writer in the Sky".

One week's results never means much, but I started at the bottom and it slowly rose...so I'm getting hopeful for this one.

Congrats. I am at 95th in covers. Perhaps it will climb back up. It held no1 for a couple of days but two days before the Q/fs it plumetted to 112 in just 24 hours. I reserve judgment on whether the system has been fixed. My other song "Just another Day" in male songwriter is pretty much the same position as when it started at near the bottom of the pile.

I no longer participate at OurStage. I cancelled my account.

Alan

What brought you to that decision, Alan?

I too am interested Al in knowing why all of a sudden. What happened?

Hey Guys!

OurStage is a financially supporting partner of JPF. Therefore, I'll just say that I wasn't happy with a turn of events over there and decided I would expend my energy elsewhere. I politely and courteously informed them of my reasons. Good luck to all of you who continue to participate.

Alan

Al,

If you didn't want to call attention to it, why post it at all?

Brian

Brian,

I've been a constant contributor to this thread. Just letting folks know why I'm no longer contributing. The post is not to slam OurStage. I am taking the high road with that. As I said, it is only to explain why I'm no longer involved with this particular thread.

Alan

Regardless of your reason Alan it is your decision.
I probably won't bother entering anything after what happened in Traditional Country last month.
I will still put songs there but I won't bother with the competition. It has made it clear to me that I don't have a clue about music and peoples tastes.
I went through most of the winners to see if I could get a better handle on it. I couldn't. It seemed there were similar problems in other genres.
What's the point of trying to do a good traditional country song if it has no chance of winning in traditional country. It's pointless.
But it is still free so might as well use it as another way to get people to hear your songs.

I'm not doing well in traditional country and bluegrass this time either, #5 in comedy so far.

I am starting to feel like Al and Bill and thinking of pulling out of Ourstage. I notice that position 1 and 2 in covers is held by the same band. It distictly states that only one entry is allowed in each chanel. I tried to enter two songs a while back but was told that the rule had changed and one entry was the maximum so could only enter one. So now it seems that AGAIN there appears to be one rule for some and another rule for others by letting a band have two entries. I tried to enter another song just to see if it could be done and lo and behold I now have two entries for this month in covers. Either they keep changing the rules or their software and engine as I have always suspected is flawed big time.

One of my songs has been moving gently up and down near the top of rock instrumentals - presently 15. The degree and speed of movement seems reasonable. My other two songs are near the bottom but have not experienced any large swings.

Big Jim: LOL, I just caught your version of Hot Legs -- pretty dang good!! Brought a smile to my face.

I am glutton for punishment, I decided to add a couple of songs in there for this month. I won't do so well, but I refuse to go away without making a fuss.

Kevin

EDIT: Big Jim: I think you would do better if you used better graphics.

Question: When a song wins in any category, are they permitted to stay and compete the following month?

Yes! You can enter one song any month in any category..... sometimes two songs despite the rules stating otherwise if you can get away with it. A few have.

Big Jim,

Daniel mentioned in one of his blogs that they decided to allow two entries in Cover Bands since they usually cannot enter into any other category.

Well that makes sense...NOT. Most of the songs there are NOT even covers.

BTW just had notification that Just Another Day has been moved to Rock as someone deemed it inappropriate in singer songwriter.
Well that is OK but sheesh I would like to see more songs put in the correct genres cause I see out of genre songs so often I have stopped flagging as it is a full time job and waste of time.

My song "Wonder the Street" is #7 in the electronic/electro-pop channel. Not bad. I'm registered as "The Audible One" there. I'll see how it fares towards the end of the month...

http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/22-electronic/RIXWMQYCADNV-wonder-the-street