JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Blume article

I think I'm a minimalist with minimum talent.
I never try to state anything else.
I can also say with satisfaction that I really believe I did a poetic ballad in the Al Stewart fasion and I still don't see where the recording sounds that inferior.
I know that says nothing to a publisher.
We all have our own perception.

I am one for going through channels.
I would state that in this day and age just because of all the con artists on the internet.
If I draw a black picture and someone only sees white, that would'nt be in my hands, just like I could'nt be told.

I hear smut with loops and samples sometimes and there are people that actually like it only for the rythmn.
In this day in age, one does'nt even have to touch an instrument to make music.
I would think that the simple method and ones pounding the bricks (or cyber bricks) to get themselves noticed would say all the more.
If being a funk with no soul is what it took, than I guess I will never get published.
But nothing is saying that I can't keep passing them along.

Great philisophical and business points to go along with this subject.

Big Jim..You are what you are..and obvioulsy you have no intention of changing..so live and let live.Tho we speak the same language as our American friends,we DO have differing cultures,...God, different parts of the USA have different cultures..i dare say that is what makes that country so unique..We here in Scotland being a celtic nation and a protestant nation combined, have to live together as well..you are the opposite side of the fence from me,tho we are both Scottish born and bred..i TOTALLY disagree with your religious outlook..but iam used to it,because it is part and parcel of our culture..live and let live...some of my best buddies share the same beliefs as you..tho you really cannot call them beliefs,because they don't believe,but that is bye -the -bye..tho if someone is going to employ me ..i definately do not ask what religion he is before i take his cash..it takes all sorts to make a world,and as i say we are different cultures ..and mybe just mybe,your Scottish bluntness perhaps ruffles a few feathers...well again live and let live...i don't think for a milli-sec there is any real malice behind it..but mindful we are two different nations split by a common language..i see a lot of posts on here i do not agree with..but i just move on..i really prefer talking about the nitty-gritty of the songwriting world,or the odd political debate,or texas -hold-em,,or roulette,or horse racing,or football.not american football the Real football...SOCCER....sorry.. no offence to my American Buddies...lol.........Terry...

Not to believe in something is to have a belief of it's non-existince.
I'm agnostic but would love very much to see the people I loved here when I'm dead.

Existance in itself seems to have an agnostic principle about it.
Unknown.

Just like with music. Or perhaps this discussion.
I hope I am not bringing it off topic.
It is a debate on the credibility of a musician (or quickly turned into).
Every post has pointed to that in some way that I have seen.

Sometimes people like "Commercial songs" because of the availability, this dose not mean the song is necessarily good or bad. It just means these songs get tons of air play, usually due to people/lables with deep pockets that can afford to push it with heavy promotion. "Pop" songs tend to repeat the same phrases constantly...and yes there is a psychology to this as with any type of advertisement, and repetition coupled with simple lyrics makes for a memorable hit. I respect and understand that fact that people need to get paid in order to live. We all do what we can to make it in life, while hopefully passing on a little something positive to the next generation. I am also aware that some pop songs are very deep touching, and beautiful. But for the most part, this kind of music is about making a quick buck. It is what it is. I don't think the money making songwriters should look down on those who wish to write deep stirring complex songs, and vice versa. I will say there is no better feeling than to have total strangers come in from off the street and into the venue in which you perform, and say "I love your music...you guys are talented." With our own words and in our own way, and no amount of money can put a price on that natural high. Each person will decide what music or song writing means to them, lots of money, fun, a message story whatever. I accept my responsibility that goes with what I'm doing as regards to the music biz. I do what works best for me and my situation, and that is all anyone can do.

As for places like TAXI, I sent things in so as to get a critique and got nothing!!! No comment on anything good or bad. No advice at all, and believe me...I'd love to know what the industry pros are thinking. After this went on for some time, I saw that it was an obvious waste of money, for my cause. So now, I'm just going to work my way up the totem pole gig after gig, and do endless research, because I get better results this way, than to invest in things like TAXI or SonicBids

I thought this was good Mike.!!! and what if Jason Blume
said ..... "I'd like to help __________________(insert any of our names) achieve some greater success. I have someone I'd like to share your song with" How many of us would honestly turn that down and say..., ..I'm not interested.

Best to everyone this mornin'
Kaley

Children's Songs
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=6469&content=music

Piano Melodies and Demos
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=8404&content=music

Wyman and Kaley's Andy & Friends CD
http://cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg

Goodness this thread just won't die, will it?

Okay, Jason may not be the deepest writer on the planet. But below is a link to a song by some very famous writers who are constantly named when people name the best of all time (they are in the Dylan level of greatness). This song was a number one pop hit and sold MILLIONS of copies. I myself thought it was great till me and a girlfriend were singing into an old tape recorder and she had never heard the song and she was singing off a lyric sheet and said something like "this is the dumbest song I ever heard."

As someone said, P E R S P E C T I V E ......................

Now go to this link, read the words, even think of the melody, and diss the writers of this one. Blume's songs may not be as well known, may not be as "beloved," may not be as deep, may not have sold as much, but if they aren't at least lyrically comparable to this, we are all in trouble.

http://www.lyrics007.com/The%20Beatles%20Lyrics/Hello%20Goodbye%20Lyrics.html

You got nothing? No reply? No critique, no advice? I find that terribly hard to believe. You always get a reply from Taxi. Some listings are 'no critique' listings, you know that going in, but you always get a reply. Every other regular listing has a critique. Their custom critiques are great.

I don't spend money unwisely, and as far as I am concerned, for ME, my investment in Taxi has been the best investment I could have made for my musical career, bar none. I've signed 5 songs through Taxi. Because my music makes the grade. And it makes the grade because Taxi pushed and pulled me, kicking and screaming, into the reality of the commercial music industry... and made me work my ass off. and I paid them to do it.

**Now let's talk about Jason Blume "Selling Out" and writing music that many of you don't respect. Uh huh. Let's see you do it. Let's see you get a number one hit with your 'selling out lyrics'. Do it for me, to prove your point. Just one hit this year, and then you can go back to being true to your vision of yourself.

Here's my take on it - someone works their ass off over a decade or so to finally get a major cut with a huge band (Back Street Boys). He finally proves to everyone who thought he was crazy to live on $10,000 a year that he could crack the music industry using the talent, skills and network that he grew over that decade. After some more successes as a Staff Writer (which I don't anyone on this thread is), he writes a book called "6 Steps to Songwriting Success". IMO one of the best books on songwriting out there that I recommend to aspiring songwriters all the time because everything in it is what I learned painfully over 4 years from membership in songwriting boards, Taxi, getting critiques, etc. He also has a book called "Inside Songwriting" which is a great journal-like tome about his experiences in trying to break into the industry, and this little book reflect his creativity. And he pens a book called "This Business of Songwriting" in which he gives a lot of information on how the music industry works & how songwriters get paid. In addition, he becomes a respected teacher of songwriting. And a Mentor for Just Plain Folks. And you get up on your high and mighty horse and diss him.

Jimi Heath said something on her blog that I think applies here. She says "...as a writer who is trying to make it you HAVE to respect the work that was put into getting that song recorded by that artist and then give props to the writer. Remember, that writer worked his ass off to get where he/she is and at the end of the day, the check is coming to their mailbox, not yours. Like the song or not, is to be respected. You never know, one day it might be YOUR song that some newbie writer thinks sucks."

Nuff said.

No, I did not get a response, and I had issues from day one! First they tried to make us pay 2x because there system was slow! After that, we saw there was slim pickings for the trip-hop electronica sections, but figured we would try it out any way, and nothing! $400 for nothing!

Hummingbird, you say it took Jason ten years to get a hit...why are you giving us just one? when was Jason's last cut by a major artist?

personally I never said anything about him selling out....I just said listen to his songs. surely not an unreasonable request. I noticed you referred to the BS Boys as a huge band, not a good one.

your testimony regarding Jason is very passionate but can you be more specific? what about his songs helped you to be a better writer? be specific...cite favorite lines and/or melodies. then show with your own writing how his songs helped you. if you're convincing...I'll buy his book.

TAXI did nothing for us, and we gave it an honest try. $400 for nothing, and we had problems from day 1 when they tried to charge our credit card 2x. We got, no feedback at ALL. I'll see if anyone gives feedback of any sort on here, something (even if its harsh) would be better than nothing. I know I've got much to learn, and I'm curious as to what the professionals would say. But I'm happy for you that it worked out for you, that's cool.

All three books gave me information.

I think this video answers your questions. Watch this, and tell me how he's advocating 'selling out':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2MrG8bxR_Y

"Just Plain Folks Mentor Jason Blume is one of the few writers who has ever had the distinction of having songs on Billboard's pop, country and R&B charts — at the same time, Blume's songs are on albums that have sold more than 45 million copies in the past two years. Britney Spears, the Backstreet Boys, and country stars, the Oak Ridge Boys, Collin Raye and John Berry are among the artists who have recorded his songs."

"JASON BLUME is one of the few songwriters to ever achieve the distinction of having his songs on Billboard’s Pop, R&B, and Country charts - - all at the same time. With his songs recorded by pop superstars Britney Spears, the Backstreet Boys, and Jesse McCartney as well as country stars including Collin Raye, the Oak Ridge Boys and John Berry,and international artists like the Gipsy Kings, Blume’s songs are included on albums that have sold more than 50 million copies.

One of the nation's most respected songwriting teachers, when he is not writing hits, Blume teaches others how to do so. He developed and teaches the BMI Nashville Songwriters workshops and has taught his songwriting techniques as a guest lecturer at U.C.L.A. and Vanderbilt University, as well as a member of the faculty of Los Angeles' Pierce College, Nashville's Watkins Institute, and internationally in Norway, Ireland, Jamaica, Canada, and Mexico. His lessons are used by the Nashville Songwriters Associations members throughout the U.S. and internationally.

Formerly Assistant to the Director of A & R for RCA Records, Blume has worked with artists including the Judds, Alabama, the Pointer Sisters, Eurythmics, Diana Ross, Dolly Parton, Starship, and Kenny Rogers. He has been Production Coordinator for artists including Aaron Tippin and Engelbert Humperdinck.

The best selling 6 STEPS TO SONGWRITING SUCCESS: The Comprehensive Guide to Writing and Marketing Hit Songs and INSIDE SONGWRITING: Getting to the Heart of Creativity (Billboard Books) by Jason Blume take you step by step through everything you need to know to write successful songs - - and get them published and recorded. Jason's newest book, THIS BUSINESS OF SONGWRITING (Billboard Books) has just been released and has received phenomenal reviews. "

PS - you don't need to buy his books. Borrow them from the local library.

A Taxi membership costs $299 for a year. They offer a money back guarantee, and they stand by it. They have excellent customer service.

It's IMPOSSSIBLE to get "no feedback at all" from Taxi unless you submit to a 'no critique' listing. IMPOSSIBLE. How many submissions did you make? To what listings? How did you make those submissions? Did you call customer service?

Yes, Taxi works for me, and it works for many of the professional songwriters I know.

However, that is not the topic at hand.

As far as iam concerned,after watching the video,...and this is my personal opinion only....he is only stating the bleedin obvious.....structure,melody,length of lyric,short phrases etc
to fit the musical pattern etc and so on...and he has never heard anyone walking down the street humming a chord change?....well he is not alone in that statement...how can you hum a chord change....but anyways..good luck to him..he sounds enthusiastic enough... but, at the end of the day it is horses for courses...iam sure he will help some aspiring songwriters along their way...but if you have been writing for a good length of time and what he tells you is news to you..then you are in trouble.....Terry...

Hummingbird, I know his resume of the BS Boys and Britney. I never said anything about selling out. hell, I want my songs to sell...I just want them to be good songs.

basically, you couldn't answer my question of how he helped you. I didn't think you could. when it comes to these mentors, few ever can. I'll stick to my albums.

There is so much opinion and crap going on in this thread...bottom line, Jason Blume is a success in the music business... that is self evident.

He is trying to share his way, but it is one way and not necessarily the universal way. Take what you can from him, and from all your good examples....try things...IF your goal is to make it, learn from everyone, and disparage no one.

And understand that the road to success runs from "the right artists with the right song at the right time" to "persevere and one day you will....." ....and the level of success runs from a long career to a one hit wonder ....

In other words, there is no one right way. There is only "your way".

Everything else is an object lesson...and it is up to you what you want to learn...just don't slam the teacher because you don't like or agree with the lesson or their experience...or because you, the reader\listener, may not be their "core target audience"....that imaginary person with a specific level of experience\talent that the teacher is trying to reach and teach.

BTW, the best, short, pithy lesson I've learned here is

It is not about who you know, it's about who knows you....now THAT is a powerful road map.

Sorry, I didn't realize that I didn't answer your question. I have read all 3 books. I found them all informative. In addition, I found "6 Steps to Songwriting Success" & "Inside Songwriting" to be inspiring.

In addition, I have heard Jason speak. Like he is in the video link, he is passionate about sharing his journey. He is an inspiring speaker. And by inspiring, I mean, he says "you can do this too".

If you haven't his books, or seen him speak, or asked him for a critique, then how do you know that there is nothing that he has to say that is of value?

My only real point here is, it's easy diss / dismiss the journey and success of someone else and say they have nothing to give us as a mentor. It's harder to admit that perhaps we have something to learn, and that perhaps there are mentors and teachers who could take us one step further. If you don't want to read Jason's books, etc., then don't.

Of course, according to the logic I see on this thread, only someone with a recent hit is worthy of being a songwriting teacher... and in that respect... no one here can really compare themselves to Jason or Pat Pattison, or John Braheny or Pat Luboff or Harriet Schlock, etc

I have more thought to add to this topic.

I don't read Jason Blume's books because he's had hit songs. I don't attend his songwriting seminars, or his opening & closing at the Road Rally, because he's had hit songs.

I read his books, I go to see him speak, because he has something to say about the CRAFT of SONGWRITING that I find valuable. In addition, he is a Passionate and Inspiring speaker.

For most of the people on this thread, if you haven't read Jason's books, or attended a seminar with him, etc... how do you know he has nothing to teach you? It's like people slamming a movie they've never seen.

OTOH, that's okay. I'll be the one that reads the books & gleans all I can from every source imaginable. I learn from the guy singing his song at an open mic. I learn from each of you. And I learn from mentors like Jason Blume. Because my mind is open and I am eager to grow.

I forked out some money for a couple guitar lesoons about 130 years ago.
Sometimes you have to buy the book or see that instructor, like anyone.

I would just like practical tips myself for where when someone believes they have the product to market that product.
Not "what it takes to be the right musician".
Because some of these unorthodox ones by professional standards may have worked their butts off and shopped that around.
Maybe they hav'nt been stirred in the right direction where there is the opportunity.
There seems to be so much methedology to getting published.

I think the hits of yesterday stick out more.
They did'nt look at the conforming side the same way since they were the originators of it.
Just sending that simple recording off to a publisher or getting heard somewhere.

Now it is so easy to get lost in the shuffle.
There are books on how to better market and where to go.
Musical instruction is fine, but I think from reading many in this post that they already pretty much know what they want to do.

Hummingbird, you still didn't answer my question. HOW did Jason's songs help you? what about them did? what lines...what melodies? ir is it a case of...his songs don't motivate me but his seminars and books do.

I don't think "recent" has anything to do with it. I completely respect Jimmy Webb because he wrote timeless songs, even if he has no recent hits. But Jimmy didn't catch the wave of a music fad with some bubblegum tunes and then fade out. He's written great, great songs...has Jason? if so, which ones? what songs has Pat Pattison written? who's John Braheny? what's he written?

people seem to think it's a bad thing this thread turned into a Frankenstein...it's not, it's a good thing. There's a biblical proverb that says iron sharpens iron and man's faces sharpen each other(or something like that). civil disagreements about music are what it's all about. Most of the critique sites on the Net are just mush...pen pals paying each other soft pedal compliments. if they're afraid to be honest with each other, how DARE anyone question whether or not Jason Blume can write a good song?

if democracy allows us to question political and religious leaders, surely we can question a guy who wrote some tunes for Britney. it's good for the soul.

cross post...I'm not criticizing a movie I've never seen....my first post on this thread recommended listening to and studying Jason's songs. (which I've done)Later on I recommended doing the same with his students to see if his methods resulted in good writing.

so show me Hummingbird...don't just say he "inspired" you. what exactly did he inspire you to do? what lines specifically has he written that motivate you? what lines have you written that show his influence? or is he just good speaker?

I realize I'm looping here...asking the same question over and over. but that's the Net...staying on topic isn't a common trait.

Good points Couch...if it stopped there. What I understood is "because Jason wrote songs I did not like, he can't teach me anything"

By all means, pick apart "successful" songs to see what makes them go.

I nowhere said I didn't like Jason's songs. I've spoken in complete generalities concerning Jason's songs. although it's not a stretch to say it's hard to learn from someone's work you don't respect.

post some links to Jason's new songs on cd baby...what has anyone learned from them?

Couch,

Specifically, do you like Jason's songs?

It seems to me that Couch is making a different argument than what some people are perceiving. He is arguing from a standpoint that he has already learned something from Jason Blume, having read his works and looking at some of his lyrics.

He is suggesting there is a secondary level of measurement he thinks is worth applying to his evaluation of Jason's work, that being one should consider the works of his students. For several people here, the argument seems to be do I read his works at all, or pre-emptively disregard.

While I think Couch's tone gives away his thoughts in some regards, I think what he is stating is a reasonable approach to evaluating another's work. Music will always come down to personal taste, so what is a treasure to some of us will be a bag of trash to others. If you read him or attend a seminar and find value in his approach because of similar taste or target goals, then you have learned something. If you read his works and find that his direction is not one you wish to take, then you have also learned something. Both lessons are valuable, however, the student of former will value the lesson more than the student of the latter.

Just wanted to say I ain't wild about his songs.

I think making a big deal about Blume's credentials is a faulty premise. Yes, we could go into the old "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" thing...

But I've also found that those who can, often can't teach.

So my point is, whatever Blume has accomplished on his own may have very little bearing on how well he teaches.

That said...I don't expect much from "The College of Songwriting" other than a few nuggets of wisdom here and there. It's not like cutting hair. You need to have something within you that already understands the majority of the process...and these classes should shore up your knowledge of structure, the market, etc. I have a hard time believing a complete novice could walk into a songwriting class and walk out with everything needed.

Mike, I think I've already said that if you look at what I post and tunes I've co-written like Goodwill Coat, Some of My Best Friends Are Songs, Annabelle and Old Crow On the Rocks...you'll know what I think of Jason's songs. That's the most I'll be quoted as saying. When I start a thread like this, I'll feel obligated to state it specifically.

from what I've seen so far, most are willing to say they like his seminars but not his songs. most are are able to say he's "inspiring"...but they can't say what he inspired them to do. or they say he helped them learn to network...nothing about creativity.

that says more than anything I can about his songwriting abilities.

Asking me how Jason Blume inspires me or how I have learned from his experience is like asking how Brian Austin Whitney inspires me and how I have learned from his experience. Or how Julia Cameron inspires me & teaches me. Or John Braheny. Or Michael Laskow. Or Pat Pattison. Or Dr Wayne Dyer. Or Eckhart Tolle. Or Barbara Livingston. Or Gary Zeller. Etc etc etc.

They inspire me because what they say and what they share resonates with me, makes sense to me, moves me forward. They teach me because they share their experiences with me, and through the story of their experience, and the tools that they talk about, they mentor me, they teach me.

They seem to say, "here is what I know from my personal journey on this path. Here's the road map that worked for me. I don't know if it will work for you, but I'm willing to share what I know with you. I hope you find it valuable."

That's exactly what I tell my students.

i see it as a question of...is it his actual songwriting skills..OR is it his publications about songwriting..there is a monumental difference...and where does his influence lie, in either one, or both.Was hummingbird influenced by his writing prowess,which in turn helped her to be a better writer..or was it his insight, and tips, and pitfalls of the business end of the craft,which helped in her understanding of how to hack one's way thru the songwriting jungle...or perhaps a mixture of both..But there is a myriad of options in this business..the only solid advice in this business is a finger pointing you in the right direction..the rest is up to the songwriter...Terry..

Good post Terry!

Jason Blume has inspired me to pay more attention to prosody. I tend to write story songs with long, wordy lines. Often these lines don't meter well. Mr. Blume's work itself is a lesson in the ability of music to add feeling and nuance to simple phrases.

Also, I've learned from Jason Blume that a lyric that matches what is spoken intimately and in a heartfelt manner does not have to be "clever" or "deep" to move people. Not if it is (and here I go again) matched perfectly to a rhythm, melody, and background that also conveys the intimacy. The Beatles got known for songs like this. "She Loves You," "I Wanna Hold Your Hand," "Dance With Me," these are the songs that made them popular, not their artful or whimsical tune. Mr. Blume, as a writer, is deceptively simple. As a result, when he presents a new, thoughtful idea, such as in "She's Gonna Fly" or when he writes unusual, descriptive language such as in that Incubus song, it has more power than if he wrote long, wordy songs that belabor the setup of the hook and feel the need to be clever in every line, as I am likely to do.

Lastly, here, but not finally in my estimation, Jason Blume inspires me in his love of songwriting itself. He could easily be living on a boat in Jamaica, but he continues to teach and lecture. I'm sure he makes a good amount of money, but lecturing, writing, and teaching takes a good deal of work. And yet Mr. Blume has spent ten years regularly offering free lectures and workshops. I find that inspirational and exemplary.

I'd also like to add that I do like his songwriting abilities and his songs as well. He's the "Yin" to the "Yang" of the wordy, ponderous, clever spinners of consciously twisted aphorisms and forced hooks ( of which I am one.)

Hummingbird, what exactly do they say? how did what they said help you? Where can I listen to Pat's songs? post a few lyrics that show your progress from before you read their stuff, and after. I won't ask again but I'm willing to wager you won't. or can't.

I don't doubt all these people have "inspired" you...you seem more enamored of people who write about music than music itself!

I'm sure they're all great speakers, but remember this...the whoring-est southern preacher yells an inspiring sermon. He packs the pews because of his dynamic personality...hell, that's how he bags the broads! just don't peek behind the curtain cos the wizard ain't no wizard. lots of people in religion, politics and yes, songwriting are afraid to part the curtain and see the Britney songs.

there are four kinds of people:

1) the 9-5 workaday guy/gal who's the backbone of society.

then there's peeps not so inclined to the punchclock...

2) artists
3) gamblers/sports figures
4) criminals

your basic artist is allergic to following rules...he's creative and wants to do it his way. he's not above learning from those that inspired him to be an artist, but the Mona Lisa wasn't painted by the numbers.

there are certain artists who have a mind for glad-handing and working their way up the ladder like an office droid up to the cubicle with a better view of the rubber plant by the elevator. He'll make money and get promoted but since his spirit is closer to the 9-5 guy(nothing wrong with that), his stuff will be rote and yawn-worthy.

the best art is made by the guy whose spirit is closer to the gambler, if not the criminal. he's gonna fall on his ass a bunch of times taking risks but when he's on, he's on. that's why there's some really awful Neil Young albums out there but damn, there's some great ones, too.

when I first came on the net in '99 this guy suggested I read some Pat Pattison book. I didn't know they existed...I thought the only way to learn to write songs was from songs. I was intrigued...curious even. Then this guy posted some lyrics he wrote and they stunk. scared me off Pat. That pattern's been repeated over and over since then. "I suck but damn, I sure am inspired by these guys!"

forget that 12 steps to a better McSong crap. when you sit down to write a lyric or compose a melody...think like a criminal.

Mike, the Beatles didn't write artful songs around the time of She Loves You. It's well known that after hearing Dylan they realized their songs were meaningless fluff and deepened them. as writers they were much prouder of songs like Eleanor Rigby and Strawberry Fields than She Loves You.

I wouldn't call Jason's lyrics deceptively simple, I'd call them simplistic...but that's a judgement call. I'd like to see the descriptive language in the incubus song...which one is it? I'm glad you learned about meter from jason...I learned it from Springsteen, Dylan, Neil, the Beatles, the Band and others.

what story song of yours would you recommend I listen to see how jason helped you?

Hummingbird, I watched the Jason Blume video link you posted. After watching it, I realized I had in fact learned something about songwriting from Jason. I learned and have been trying to incorporate in my writing what he has to say about being brief in musical and lyrical phrases- I just forgot that he was the one who taugtht me that. Like Mike said, his advice is deceptively simple. He keeps it simple and it works for him. I like him personally and I admire him. The majority of the songs he writes are for people I don't listen to so I will not even attempt to judge the merit of his songs. I am willing to give him his due, wish him the best- and I wish all of you who posted success, because I know a lot of you have been working hard and deserve it.

Perspective Perspective Perspective! Great persepctive Vikki...

How you see things and hear things and feel about things at the end of the day is all that really matters. If you open your mind to somethings you will learn perspective and place that perspective where ever you want. Maybe you'll gain something valuable in your own life from it maybe not. But at least some insite into it is interesting.

If you dont think Jason Blume can teach you anything at this point, then don't buy his book or listen to his speeches or listen to his songs as those are the ways he can influence you. What he is basically pushing is the idea of success, may he be struck by lighting for that lol.. and since were all so successful in the music business, it' even more absurd right?

Forget the fact that he is a HIT songwriter Great or Not he's still did something you & me haven't been able to. Unless his daddy owns the publishing CO or a major record label that deserves credit. Nuff said. Lets forget the BS talk I like action even better.


Perspective - Look at that BUM fighter, he gets knocked out in his last 4 fights he don't train enough, he's got NO HOOK, He's the bottom of the barrel,he's this he's all this you say!

Then you go in a room with him to play his game he knocks you out cold in 2 seconds. You just got perspective handed to you right on the jaw. Thank God he was a Bum and not Joe Louis right?

Jason Blume writes HOOKS in his world that crosses a few styles.. most likey if anyone here goes into a room with him and plays his game you get knocked out too... No??? Wake Up!

That's right five people are in that room, two of them keep playing music one piece after another after another and you have to write HOOKS on the spot to say be approved by the other 3 people in the room... Guess what? Jason kicks your ass, thank God it wasn't McCartney or Stevie Wonder huh? Then if you asked more & more people you would be further crushed. He's not even in the same world as the other two legends and he's out hooking you all day. But this doesn't apply to you because you write a different kind of song the what the hell are you doing on tbis thread about Jason LOL...

Perspective...

"Oh I hate the way he plays the guitar, with all those fast notes and this & that and all that distortion blah blah " Ah Then he comes to your house sits next to you with an acoustic and BLOWS you away! You know it and so does everyone esle in the room. But you can't admit it (so where does the real problem lie?)

Now this in not always the case, and maye you are as good or better, but doesn't seem like the ones who are are never knocking down everyone else? Are they to busy being great"

If you wanna keep talking about something on & on & on, at least be in the same game not in the stands,if not for anything else but to gain some persepctive for self piece of mind.

I bare a fair goodbye to Ande's Thread, I must get somethings done. I do have contests & exercises on the mp3 board that make people step out of there comfort zone, try to write out of there normal style for some. Great for Perspective & learning.

Writing HOOKS is hard, we address it in ACTION, within a SPECIFIC STYLE, within a TIME FRAME, with REJECTION
Sound familar? Like something called like, the Music Business?
Whether you like it or not its a business, work with that or not.

Mike Caro, I love hooky pop music...Pet Sounds is one of my favorite records. I didn't hear any memorable hooks on Jason's site. I heard production...there's a difference.

Couch.

Since the inception of this thread, I've been inspired to write, not story songs, but simple, intimate lyrics. People, when they speak intimately, speak plainly and simply. They say things like, "I want to hold your hand," or "She loves you," or "You're still the one." Folks like songs that say such things just as well, maybe more than, they like story songs. I understand, some folks don't like the early Beatles lyrics, think they are "fluff," but the average person, obviously, did. Every girl I knew in high school did.

The lyric that was inspired by Jason Blume's lyrics and philosophy is already finished, Razzy Bailey and I cowrote it. I won't reveal the hook (it's very simple), but it will be released during this year on Razzy's next project. When it's released, I'll identify the hook and give information where you can buy it.

For story songs of mine, pre Blume, I recommend you listen to "The Voice" or "Mama's Dancing" on my cd "Mike Dunbar '02" available for sale at CDBaby.

Couch - Pet Sounds AWESOME!

"Oops I Did It Again" Not Awesome, but still catchy, many think so, a modern Material Girl. Not sooo easy to write. And in todays game Production is a HUGE part of the game and success.

Oh and Pet Sounds had a little production as well don't ya think?

And some songs on there were really geared towards teenagers and kids for that time weren't they? I'll save you the typing lol YES! is the answer lol...

Lets put up "Wouldn't It be Nice" and read the lyrics... well I like that melody much more than Britany's smash breakthrough hit as well. But one point is my name aint on any of these checks either so who am I to really nit pick too much.

Like I was trying to explain to Big Jim. Nobodies beating the great bands and artists from the past. It's too late that game is over.. Are you playing in this one 2008 or not? If Jason or Diane Warren are the cometition for some , then take em! take em down!

You didn't hear any memorable hooks on Jasons songs but a few million others did, including some songwriters and record executives, and producers and engineers.

Imagine yourself an enginner and you just finished recording Miles Davis and your BLOWN away... Killer live players as well...You had a great time,,,,

Then then the next day someone comes in with Britany and that big hit of Jason's
and you start working with all kinds of neat computer tools and production tricks,
And your having a GREAT time as well, Your thinking wow look how different this was then yesterday (which of course was much more awesome) but your learning and expierencing more things in life... And my engineering skills are getting broader!!! And you know better even as an engineer, this is a well crafted song,
The kids are gonna love it, I'm gonn amake it sound best I can to contribute to that.

The engineer whos say's wow that Britany session sucked.. is a fool (unless he has a personal reason for it) You know what the pros who do thoses sessions NEVER say that....

""Oops I Did It Again" Not Awesome, but still catchy, many think so." you're right, not awesome. I've rarely heard Brit's music spoken of with anything but complete derision. Her and the backstreet Boys are punchlines.

lyrically Pet Sounds is basic pop. but God Only Knows has a beautiful lyric. to me, that's deceptively simple, not simplistic. "life could show nothing to me, so what good would living do me"...that's a wondrous couplet...has Jason written any? Wouldn't It Be Nice has a fantastic musical hook that opens the song. so does You Still Believe In Me. direct me to a Jason hook that good and I'll buy his book. production is a major part of Pet Sounds but not the crucial part...those songs are strong without it. In their case(and Phil Spector's) the production compliments the hooks, it doesn't mask their weakness. I had a long discussion about Pet Sounds with a top session player once. he loves that record and holds it as a big influence. he never mentioned Jason.

I've never heard any major songwriters praise Jason's hooks. or seen the Backstreet Boys or Britney spoken of as anything more than teen fodder. and teens do have disposable income. the only problem is that in a few years the music they bought is disposed of.

as for writing a hook as good as Oops I Did it Again...I much prefer my own Some of My Best Friends Are Songs. or what I wrote today Life Leaves Traces for that matter.

Post deleted by Hummingbird

Lynn don't rhyme when she's mad. Uh oh. Ben

'Nuff already. Back to writing songs.

Hummingbird, I know Steve Seskin and I respect Cactus In a Coffee Can. I know Pat teaches at Berklee but can he write?

and I hate to say this bu-ut...although your newer lyric has darker subject matter, creatively it isn't much stronger. "I threw in the marriage towel" is a really sore thumb line. I'm no authority at all(and don't want to be) but I'd recommend this simple method: think of songs as organic beings with DNA that consist of melody, hooks, titles, stories, imagery and metaphors. Songs don't need all of these ingredients but they do need at least half. Don't work on an idea unless it has sure promise it'll grow legs, arms, fingers and a soul if you nurture it. This lyric needs a stronger idea and lines with more bite.

for all the praise you've heaped on those guys as "inspiration", the results aren't there. I in no way mean to be hurtful. You may get a hundred people say different and good for you and them.
I've purty much exhausted all I can say on this topic.

all I can say is whatever works for you...do it.

ps there's nothing wrong with simple. Some of My Best Friends Are Songs is very simple. simplistic is different. that's just trite and shallow. there's a great divide betwixt the two.

So you're going to use my efforts at a new lyric as proof that my songwriting teachers don't know what they're doing. In fact, that lyric was picked up by a producer in Europe & we'll see where it goes. (That's why I deleted it)

Seems to me, if my lyric needs work, that's MY issue, not a problem with my teachers. They can't get the skills into my thick head.

In case, I don't even know why I'm arguing with you. You've already obviously made up your mind.

You guys inspire me. This was originally the Hummingbird and the Grouch.

The Humminbird and the Artist
(c) 2008 words and music by Mike Dunbar

A Hummingbird flew by the Artist's window
She could see her reflection in his pane
Though her hum was sweet and clear
The Artist could not hear
Her refrain

But he kept sketching flowers with his charcoal
Trying hard to capture beauty in black dust
He'd tear away each page
Then crumble it with rage
And disgust

Oh if we could only see what's in our eyes
And throw away our doubt and expectation
What would it take for us to realize
There is beauty in the simplest creation

The Hummingbird could see the Artist's flower
As it stood upon his table in a cup
She kept trying to break through
Til with nothing left to do
She gave up

Oh if we could only see what's in our eyes
And throw away our doubt and expectation
What would it take for us to realize
There is beauty in the simplest creation

Beauty in the simplest creation

lovely Mike!!!

PS - I just wanted to say - I pitched a new lyric to a producer today - and just got the email that there will be two demos recorded, one with my lyrics and one with someone else's... and that the artist will chose between them.

So thanks, JasonB, JohnB, PatL, PatP, HarrietS, Taxi, & all my other teachers for bringing my work to the place where it can be seriously considered by the industry. This is on top of the 3-song deal I'm signing right now. Good week.

Couch, just wondering, as a lyricist, how do you get this organic lyric to grow arms fingers legs and soul?.do you have a definite melody "feel" in your head when writing,to give you a melody line to follow,...or do you sit down with your co-writer,and as you are a prolific writer,does he perhaps pick out a lyric that takes his fancy and then start work on it..i ask this because iam intrigued by your reply here, as i have often thought "if i were a lyricist only..where do i find someone with the exact same mental DNA..in musical form"..and yes simple and simplistic are two different disciplines..the Beatles are expert exponents of that equation..but you forgot one thing in your ingredients to go along with the songs DNA...a sprinkling of "gold dust"..we can all have a go at writing the cleverest,deepest,most meaningful,simple,simplistic lyric...but if it doesn't resonate with the listener..well!!..The songwriter we aspire to be will be "stillborn" and we wont need to worry about growing arms legs or a soul....you mentioned some of your recent writes...good and well...but in all probability...one of your songs which you may not have a lot of confidence in will be the one that cracks the door open...this is one funny old business.........Terry...

Vikki, If you'd like to put music to it, be my guest, I want 75%...no just kidding half and half.

Might take you up on that

(50 - 50)