JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Where is the morality of the young people going?

See what happens when you bring up religion? [LOL}

yep.
It all ends up in the toilet.
I wonder how Bidett uses are handling the save water policies of most countries these days?
That should bring a flush to their cheeks.
Graham

Mike,
Your wifes friend is getting way too close to the truth. And I thought I had all that stuff well hidden! Maybe your wifes friend uses corn cobs. Yikes!

Interesting reading. Wish I had time to read every single entry. I will say a few things. I don't have kids, and that's my choice....but it amazes me at how the parents of today let their kids run THEIR lives. One of my dearest friends, she and her husband have had to let their 20-year-old son, his young wife, and their BABY move in with them. The had to finish their basement for their living quarters. NEITHER son or his wife work, and my friend and her husband are taking care of all three of these humans. The kids go "out" looking for a job.. like at Pizza Hut .. get a job, work 3 days and quit.. come up with all kinds of excuses. In the meantime, my friend's teeth are bad and she needs dental work, her husband is becoming depressed, and I just DON'T GET any of this. I'm to the point to where I am TIRED of hearing about it.. it's taking all I can do not to tell her she's stupid. And these two friends aren't the only ones I know who have similar situations.. then there's the friend who has two small children, and you can't even visit her w/o the two kids crawling all over her wanting her attention, poking her in the eyes, turning her around and around in her recliner while she's trying to talk... WHAT IS WRONG??????????????? Well, for starters, I see the PARENTS having some serious issues.

~~Shelia
www.sheliaquattlebaum.blogspot.com
www.gmia.org

Whoa Everett I did not say anything about like or respect. I disagree with you on religion and God and certain other viewpoins but as a fellow human and musician I both like and respect you. I have arguments all the time but it does not effect anything else if you see where I am coming from. I speak my mind and do not bear any grudges. I love a good discussion and sometimes an argument. That is all it is. Nothing personal.

The original question was 'Where is the morality of the young people going?' - now I think about it some more, I'm led to wonder at what point people stop being 'young'. Who are these generic 'young people' - are they just anybody younger than anyone who poses the question in the first place? And is their morality only questionable because it is different?

Morality is essentially a product of necessary commonsense behaviour in a civil society. The Ten Commandments were rules to prevent the diminished people of Israel from falling into biological chaos (and to retain social cohesion). They are very strict (and with little room for clemency or discretion - lying is as serious a crime as murder) and they essentially impose order. The concept of tempering justice with mercy only emerges in the New Testament. Throughout human history, crimes which were punishable by the most terrible ordeal or death have ceased even to be crimes as societies have altered.

It does seem to me that the subtext to the original proposition is (more or less) 'why don't those under an (undefined) age of majority behave according to a set of rules which have never been fully adhered to at any point in history?' - a question which more or less answers itself.

It is 120 years or so since Nietzsche commented that 'God is dead - and we have killed him' - in other words the morality derived from religious observance has unwound and become moribund. Human society has no morality of that sort any more (at least in western secular nations - Islamic societies are still very much bound up in a divine morality). That is not to say that the desire for moral guidance from above (in some form) does not still exist. One could see the Russian Bolshevik experiment as exactly that (since it elevated the writings of a political economist to the level of a near-religion) - and the liberal societies of the western world as a humanist moral reaction to it.

In the broadest sense, the question is - 'where is the morality in Godless world?'.

Dan

Within the individual Dan.
You either have it or you don't.
If you don't have it, you can aquire it.
All it takes is acepting the fact everything you do effects the world, and deciding you want to do so in a benificial to all way.
Graham

I wouldn't disagree with that - indeed, that is a commonsense morality!

Dan

My Grandad used to say you can teach most things including morality and right from wrong but you cannot teach commonsense. You either have it or you don't.
The problem is too many Homer Simpsons in this world and not enough Homers..... that is one of mine.

this thread is so boring,its all a matter of opinion
we're all immoral at times anyways so what difference do any of our opinions make?

They make as much difference as any opinion on any topic make I'd think.

The fact we have, and state them, yourself included airrun, makes the differance.
Graham

On the local TV news yesterday a shop in Leven, Scotland has installed a special alarm. This shop is a magnet for teenage gangs who hang about in packs outside. They have caused problems with graffiti, noise, intimidating and accosting local residents. This alarm emits a high pitched mosquito type whine that seemingly can only be heard by people under 25 years old. The annoying sound is switched on when gangs congregate and disperses the crowd seemingly. I believe that it is used succesfully in USA. More shops are set to follow suit and the police recommend such a system. In my opinion this is not a solution as it only moves the problem on and the kids will soon return.
I am shocked that this problem cannot be resolved in any other way. I cannot see why the youths cannot be arrested and their parents found and punished for failing to control their offspring.
Perhaps an alarm could be invented audible only for the over 25s to get lazy parents off their lazy backsides and see what their kids are up to and keep them under control. That is the root cause of the problem lack of parental control.
Has anybody heard of these alarms and how they work exactly? Is it true that our ears change as we get older and that a sound can be inaudible just to folk over 25. The implications are huge when it comes to music. Can you imagine records with sounds inaudible to grown ups yet clear as a bell to teenagers.

Ringtones are available at these frequencies. Kids use them to message each other in school. The teaches can't hear it.

Thanks Jim, I am pleased that you don't consider me an insufferable religious bore and despise me for it, that I don't want to be. The bible tells me that I am to be a witness to warn those that are astray and in danger of being lost, or else their blood I could be held accountable for. Once I've done that, I am not responsible for what happens, and I am told to not continue browbeating a person with it. The bible puts it a little harsher than that but I don't like using that quote.

I'll leave it at that but I'll still pray for you, unless you request me not to.LOL

"Morality is an offshoot of responsibility. If God gave us no choice, there'd be no responsibility and no morality." Mike D

This is very logical and traditional view of free will. And it points to the issues that make me an agnostic instead of a Christian. Judgement. God creates an imperfect world, fills it with fallible people and punishes the creatures he makes if they don't see beyond it through faith.

But either God could create responsibility and morality without "choice" or he's not all powerful. You're saying he has to follow some rules that exist outside him. It's like saying God couldn't create good without allowing evil. Maybe I couldn't figure out how to do that, but I'm not God. Where did those rules come from? If God chose them, he's at least as responsible for what happens to people than they are.

Have you ever noticed that all the people we're supposed to emulate in the Bible did have direct evidence of God? Abraham, Daniel, David, Moses, Jesus, the disciples, Paul...
Even Job, as he struggled along with God telling him to shut up, didn't have to decide through faith that God exists. Faith, the evidence of things unseen, wasn't demanded of them.

The "all men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence wasn't some comparison of individuals or acceptance of people as they are, farts and all.

It was revolution.

The European royal vision of the universe was the chain of being.
God was better than the angels, who were better than the king, who was better than other humans and could control their lives or kill them on a whim because he was God's choice to rule.

The Americans rejected that and said everyone was created with the right of life, and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It was the rule of law among "equals" verses rule by the divine right of kings.

That's exactly what my brother left his girlfriend over!


How can you dictate what a God you don’t believe in must do? What makes you think He hasn’t cried? Besides, the Bible says He will never leave or forsake us.



Right now I’m taking a history lesson on the fact that drivers have caused terrible accidents because they were late for work. We should ban driving.


Why can’t He?

Wait just a minute here...are you saying you DON'T put hidden messages in all your songs?

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen you at any of the Secret Meetings...

I thank God for imperfection. I thank Him for the mysteries he heaps upon us. Of course, He could have made Himself into a Giant Cuddly Toy, everybody's pal, giving us all the answers and letting us all live in perfection. Instead He gave us this wonderful life where we don't have all the answers, never will, then we die. But the death and the pain is inconsequential. I have this feeling that one reason He sent His Son to suffer and die was as an atonement for causing us all to suffer and die. That may be The Way. It is in living that we die, it is in dying that we have eternal life. At that final moment, when the spark of electricity leaves my brain, then time ceases to exist there is no E, there is no 2, and the MC hammer comes down. All that's left is belief. Do I believe that's it? Or do I believe eternity is now mine? All because I've been duped...tricked into being born, tickled into laughter before I discover pain, gradually realizing life before I consider death, and given a tantalizing mystery for which there is no answer. I didn't ask to be born, Daddy, you just made me. It's OK, child, I was born too, and suffered, and died, I'm sorry, child this is going to/has already/ always will hurt me more than it will/does hurt you. OK, Daddy, I'll be brave, I love you, Papa. I love you too son. And there is no time, I'm now His only son, His only brother, and there is life and eternal love. Thank you, God.

And, yes, it was revolution. It's still a revolutionary revelation. All men and women, queens, kings and serfs, short, small, fast, slow, smart, and challenged...all men and women are born of men and women. We all burp and fart, cough and sneeze. Some of us revolt. Some are revolting. Some will live on when the voltage stops. But, we're all created the same way, created equally, none specially. 'Specially not "opressor" types. The founders figured it out. It gave them the moral certitude to revolt.

It's been a joy, boy.

Mike

Re those hidden messages Lyle.
If you didn't hear them by the time you were 25, you ain't going to hear them now as they are all aimed at controlling ypoung minds.
And need playing backwards anyway.
Graham

Dang Mike
How do we follow that.

To bad this has become a debate on religion. I don't think it was meant to go that way.
We have talked about a lot of issues here.
I think things go in cycles. Like Jim said, I am not a stupid man. I think I have a pretty good grasp of what is going on. My beliefs may be very different from some of you. Some may think they are wrong, Some may think they are right.
I have studied religion. I was very involved with the church at one time in my life.
Now I just tolerate it. I don't have a relationship with a God, or Jesus, or any other deity unless you want to call apathy a relationship. I use to say Hate. Hate may be to strong a word. Can't really hate something you have no use for.
Nature is about the closest I come to it now. I love nature. I love being out in the woods. I even love the deer I killed the other day. I am gonna eat him. When I killed that deer I said a little thank you to the woods and nature for the harvest. I do that every time I kill an animal when hunting. I am, after all, taking a life. The least I can do is thank the animals.

I came to this in August 1976 when my 6 year old daughter died in her sleep. She was my third child I buried. A man ain't supposed to bury his kids.
I tried after that to regain my faith but it was not to be. I have no use for anyone who would allow the misery that goes on in this life and then expect us to worship him for the privilege. That is just plain Sadistic.

Now to try to blame the actions of the young people on God or lack of religion is a waste of time.

Things go in cycles. 150 years ago people raised their kids on family farms. 3 or 4 generations lived together. Not just farms either. People in cities lived in communal groups as well. Grandparents, their kids and their grandkids all living in the same house. The community policed the kids and their activity. I know even when I was a kid I feared the neighbor. If we screwed up we got the [naughty word removed] kicked out of us. If we wanted money for the show on Saturday we found a way to earn it. I had my first job when I was twelve years old. I killed and plucked chickens for the neighborhood butcher. I also shined shoes for money after school.
Our affluent lifestyles in this country over the last fifty years has fragmented the family unit. It is doing the same in other countries as well.
Today kids are on their own. But, the economy is starting to swing the pendulum back the other way. I raised two of my grandkids. I know other grandparents who have raised their grandkids. I also know grandparents who have their married kids moving back in with them because they don't have jobs. For what ever reason. Some because they can't find work but others because they won't do the jobs they can get. So, the illegal immigrants take the jobs.
A lot of the young people are lazy today. They think the world owes them a living. And don't tell me it isn't so. I have nieces and nephews like that and my own daughter and granddaughter is like that.
The work is to hard, the job is to far away, I have to work nights, I have to get up at 5 o'clock in the morning, etc. any excuse to not have to get their lazy ass out of bed and go to work.I know several people on SSI who are completely healthy. But they are LAZY.
And because they don't work they don't have any money so they tend to "borrow" but it is only borrowing when you pay it back.

Bottom line
God ain't got nothing to do with it. We make choices on how we want to live.

Some people have faith. It doesn't just come, it is embraced.

Some people don't have faith. Many of them are wonderful people.

It is written that those who fail to accept faith will be left behind, will never see Heaven.

There are people I would die for, living peaceful, loving lives, who will never embrace faith, and so they will be left behind.

I could never abandon them. I decided long ago, when I was still a child, I won't board that train. I'll stay with the suffering faithless. Just seems like the right thing to do.

Would Heaven wash away my conscience?

The problem is not limited to the young. we live in a changing world of instant gratification. We have access to anything we want with the internet--Lot of good and a whole lot of bad influences.
TV--Radio--Internet--Our own government--We are all in it to some extent.The adults should be the ones to stand up and lead.
No morals are taught in the schools you cant depend on our leaders. We must teach our children if they are to be taught.We must also watch ourselves and teach by example.

Wow Bill, Sorry to hear about your tribulations, my heart goes out to you! But you "followed" Mike just as eloquently, and you both made great points. {You too Lyle and Palidin.} I suppose I'm someone who's spiritually confused/adrift.. {Everytime I think I see proof of God's existence, I see MORE proof that it can't possibly be}
But I live by the golden rule because it was instilled in me from birth. I would hope that those like me who try to be good people because it's the right thing to do, won't be left behind, if this ol' heaven thing turns out to be true. The only people that know for sure are no longer with us, and they ain't talkin'!
O.K, I've gotten in WAY too deep, and I'm going to bed now.

Humm,
A long time ago I figured that the Jury is still out on Organised Religion. The posts here just re-affirm it.

Now why pray tell, would this All seeing, All knowing perfect God make all us imperfect individuals on one side of the coin, and on the other side of the coin expect us to know exactly how to fix the problem?

Think about it. If we are imperfect then we know nothing from nothing. We don't know up from down, we don't know light from day, we dont know a circle from a square, a hexigon from a pentagon, we don't even know we are imperfect or sinners!

Everytime I thought I finally had things figured out some nut came up with something new to throw s**t in the game. I cleared this religion thing up sometime between 1950 and 1955. I was right then and nothing I have heard since changes that conclusion.

At least twice I am aware of someone of a certain religion has decided they knew when the world would end. And when it didn't happen they were flabbergasted.

Yes we have had a few soothsayers over the last 2000 years. Check it out for yourselves. I did. Everytime I heard something about religion that didn't sound right, I did my own investigation. And I found I was always right.

And for the record children are no better or no worse today than in any point in history. Write a Hit!

There are two main powers, good(God), evil (Satan),they are both after our souls. God wants to save your soul because He loves you, Satan wants to destroy your souls because he hates you and God, in who's image you are created. Man was created to live forever in a perfect world, but Satan, who had fallen from grace with God, because he wanted to take over and dethrone God, decided he was not strong enough to defeat God, but he could defeat and destroy God's perfect creation, man. God can not stand sin, so Satan set out to make man sin, he succeeded, now man no longer had a close relationship with God because God can not look upon sin.

But God loved His creation and decided to put a plan in place to rescue fallen man. He sent His son, Jesus, who was without sin, to die in our place, He took our sins upon Him and paid the penalty for our sins. If we believe and accept Jesus as the son of God and accept His sacrifice, we are saved from paying for our own sins, if we do not accept Jesus and His sacrifice, then we have to pay for our sins after we die. It doesn't matter how good a person you are in this life, you are still a sinner and sin can not enter into heaven. The bible says, "man's righteousness is to God as filthy rags". You can not redeem yourself, if you could, then why did God send His son to suffer for us.

All this is in the bible, read it and find out how much God loves us.

Hell was created for the Devil and his demons (fallen angels), God doesn't want one person to go there, that is why He provided a way to escape it, but if people don't accept His means of salvation, then they have decided they just don't believe or they can escape on their own, then they will have to face the reality of hell. I would not want my worst enemy to have to go there, let alone my friends, so that is why I ask you to search for the truth before it is too late. Read the bible, don't dismiss it as a book of fables, it God's word to us. If some one you love, or loves you, sent you a letter, would you not read it.

Everett, fear of Hell never made any man good. If God exist, Hell cannot exist. Otherwise God would not be Love but both Love and Hate, because by definition God is the creator of ALL. Your fairly tale is too simple. The morality of our children is a concern but there is an evolution of consciousness going on in our children and our world that is more or less tracking the general scientific advancement of mankind; and one day, generations from today, immorality will evaporate like fog in the sun because it will be obvious to all that happiness happens when we are being, and doing, good.

It is want and poverty, self loathing and reproach that fuels imorality. Even at the highest levels of evil such as Hitler's hate, there is a remedy. He suffered from the illusion that he could compensate for his insecurities by crushing his imaginary enemies, and he used his intellect to pursue his hate. Had he been guided and mentored as a kid, he might have been taught that his dream of 1000 years of German rules was a stupid and pointless ambition; and that the "grand scale" of things is, as it has always been, in the hand of God and not man.

Oh, I do think the hand of God is guiding us all-I grant you that. But I think all our fairly tales about wars with Satan and arch angels and a battle for our souls are just us being silly children. We need to grow up and understand that we are still looking "through a glass darkly"- admit that we don't see the big picture yet. We would be better served standing in the soup line serving the homeless, or letting the guy merge on the freeway; or advocate for the elderly; to vote, drive a smaller car. Our children are smarter than us- that is a good thing.

There is so much arrogance it religious rhetoric that it scares me a little. Christian zelotry is not so much different than the Islamic Jihad mentality- we are right! and we will die for what is right! and we will kill you for what is right! and "I told you so" if you don't believe in Jesus, then you deserve to go to Hell"! etc.

Well guess what? I believe that Jesus was born the son of a virgin, the son of God and the best man who ever walked the face of the Earth. We should listen to what he said and try our best to follow His example. But in your quest to study the bible, study bible history as well and learn where you fairy tales came from- they didn't come from the bible- they came from a misguided interpertation of the bible! The whole "swept away" idea is a flight of fancy yet millions believe it is bible truth. Brother, we still are a bunch of silly kids believing in ghost and monsters. Let God be the "Dad" that sits by your bedside and tells you, "Son, don't be afraid of Hell and Satan because that is a fairy tale. In the morning, the sun will rise to a beautiful day and we will go fishing"

Everett,
It has been said that Lucifer was an Angel at one time and at one time things were perfect in Heaven. Well,if things were perfect in Heaven there would have been no reason for Lucifer to rebel. Things would have to have been perfect for Lucifer too wouldn't they? So why do you think Lucifer rebelled? It doesn't compute.

And just exactly who decided mankind needed a Savior? And if Jesus died on the Cross to save mankind of his sins it is all done isn't it?
If I have to do it myself Jesus may have as well just stayed home.

If you examine your facts the three Wise Men were looking for a Savior of the Jews, not a savior of the world. Somehow this has gotten screwed up over the last 2000 years. Read Matthew 2:2.

While there are no written records it is estimated that the Wise Men showed up some ten months to two years later. And since they didn't know which child to pick who knows how they picked the one we now know as Jesus?

Some of these questions or discussions you will never hear in a Church setting because they come too close to the truth.

Organised Religion takes no responsibility for it's message but puts it out there like a puff of smoke in the air and you are suppose to grab onto it. But who can grab onto the illusions of Neptune.
Jesus was born at the beginning of the Astrological Age of Pisces.
Over rulership of the Sign and Age of Pisces is the planet Neptune.
Among other things Neptune rules spirituality, illusion, deception and self deception. There is little concrete form asoociated with the effects of Neptune. If you dig deep enough you can seperate fact from fiction, the sheep from the goats as it were.

Everett. If we all are made in God's image how come we are all different. We are different colours shapes sizes sexes and we all have different IQ levels and ideas. Above all he must be an ugly sod if he looks anything like me and far from perfect.
Perhaps you could also explain satan and all the other angels etc. There must be a whole clan of them. So you are saying, cause you believe the bible, that there are a number of gods, superior presences or beings or whatever you want to call them then. Are they aliens and we are just an experiment gone wrong? another theory that did the rounds for a while. Even that is more logical than your childish nonsense.

You say in your last post "Read the bible, don't dismiss it as a book of fables, it God's word to us. If some one you love, or loves you, sent you a letter, would you not read it."
If it is from someone I know I would read it but not always believe every word it says. I do read the bible it is a good read but I take it for what it is. Badly written history and fables.
I ask you this do you read and believe all your emails? I do not even open most of mine as I know it is junk or spoofs or phish or scams or viruses etc. The bible is just like a collection of thousands of years old emails written by humans with different axes to grind and opposing views on everything and if you read it properly with an open mind you would see that it is full of hypocracy innacuracies and contradictions.
Everett we are now in the 21st century is it not time that you and your theology moved out of the 17th?

Now folks I think we need to back up a bit here.
I see no reason to attack a man for his beliefs. Everett has every right to believe as he does just as the rest of you.
I personally have stated my position.
I don't care if there is a God or not. I have no use for him if he exists.
Maybe when my last bit of electricity leaves my brain and I meet him and he gives me a satisfactory explanation for what has happened I'll change my tune. But til then he can forget it.

That does not mean I won't try to live the best life I can. And I certainly will not be attacking Everett for his beliefs. He seems to be a good and honest person. What more can you ask of him.

And I am not saying that just because Mrs. Everett said she like my songs.


You can analyze and rationalize religion til you are blue in the face and never come to a conclusion. There is no proof one way or the other.

Except I was watching Ghost Hunter stuff on the Si Fi channel and they were seeing Ghosts. Makes you wonder.

"Hell was created for the Devil and his demons (fallen angels), God doesn't want one person to go there, that is why He provided a way to escape it, but if people don't accept His means of salvation, then they have decided they just don't believe or they can escape on their own, then they will have to face the reality of hell."

I'm sorry about the religious post, but this is exactly what I mean. If this true, it's as much God's choice as it is some poor confused sinner. God creates fallible creatures with free will; puts them in Paradise where he has to know, as God, that they'll fail; grits His teeth and slays people left and right for the transgressions of other people; then changes his covenant and sends his son to take on their sins.
Meanwhile, he doesn't do anything to correct the misconceptions the vast majority of humanity have about the Divine.
Then He shuts up other than in a book written by men.

And if his creatures don't wend their way through all that and make the right choice, he tortures them for the rest of eternity.
What's the point of God damning the creatures he brought into existence? Who know? But it would be His choice.

"Even God can't save them who can't love Him.
Suzanna, don't you cry."

Double post. Sorry. Nobody's perfect.

Ye Gads Joyboy,
Surely you jest. Why would this perfect??? God make all of us imperfect creatures, who has NO ability to fix the problem, according to the soothsayers, but expects us to fix the problem?

First they say we are all Sinners, and have fallen short of the Glory of God but then say we have the ability to fix the problem. Either we are all sinners or we are not. You can't have it both ways. So if God made all of us imperfect creatures maybe he is also flawed?

The Bible is so full of contradicitions it isn't funny.
And the Bible has it's own built in Disclaimer. The Bible totally disclaims it's self. Have you found it yet?

It also says we are all part of God. A bit disguised but there. Have you found that yet?

Fallen Angels? How do you become an Angel and then fall? Sounds like thing aren't so peachy after all in Paradise.

I put my faith in the Gospels according to John, Paul, George and Ringo.

Thanks Bill, I do feel a bit like I am being attacked for my beliefs. There are two billion Christian believing people in the world, why do I feel so alone on this topic on this thread?

Part of the answer is here:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=576195&songID=4261608

Another part is what is accepted behavior. How many of our parents would have accepted the notion of "Friends with benefits"? How many of our parents would have let most of the rap and hip hop music you hear today be played in their homes? How many communities 50 years ago would have let that music be played at a level where everyone had to hear it walking down the street, or riding in your car with the windows rolled up and your own music at a level that won't break your eardrums? How many of your parents would have let you say "F You!!" to them and you still be able to sit down for the next two weeks? How many of your parents didn't have a very good idea of where you were almost every minute of every day? I could go on, but just thinking about it is making me sick to my stomach.

Who is to blame? In a large part we all are. The moment we let lawmaking be out of the control of the majority, we signed away a lot of our rights. Look at a lot of the laws that have been written in the last 50 years. Then tell me how many you would have approved if you had the chance to vote on them. We have let this country run out of control. We are sending mixed messages to our children. When they see people on TV getting away with doing whatever they want, they ask "Why can't I?".

What can we do? The very first thing we need to do, is find a way to take back control of our government. That means getting involved. Enough of the apathy. Start finding out who is running your local government, and how you feel about what they're doing.If you don't like what they're doing, find a person you believe will do it better, and get behind them. I not talking money, I'm talking time, and your voice. There is no better salesperson than one who believes what they're saying. Then move your energies right up the line to the county, state, and national levels. When all good people can honestly say they've done this, the country will change, for the better. Remember, "Evil Flourishes when good men do nothing".

Nuff said!!

John....BINGO! You win the prize!

Well Said John
You summed up very well what I was trying to get across.

I would not allow my Grandkids to play that kind of music(if you can call it that) in my house. That does not mean they did not listen to it though.

Now all I have to do is find a politician that thinks like I do. So far no luck. I'd probably have to go back a hundred years.

Thank you Bob.

Thank you Bill. And, if all else fails, run yourself!!

I am still confused by this topic - is it taken as a given that morality can only derive form one interpretation of God? Is it the same interpretation that gave the world the Crusades, the Inquisition, witch-trials, anti-semitism, sectarianism? Or is it the interpretation which condones the death penalty, but abhors abortion? That preaches mercy and forgiveness, but offers only hellfire and damnation?

The point I'm trying to make here is that if one believes in one overarching and indivisible God, how can any human even begin to lay claim to deciding what God wants? People believed in God before Christianity, and have re-interpreted the whole thing since (Islam regards Jews and Christians as part of the 'family of Abraham' - I think that's the correct term - who have just gone awry).

Draw a circle 10 miles in diameter from where I live and there are Anglican churches, Baptist churches, Catholic churches, Seventh Day Adventists, Presbyterians, Free Presbyterians, Methodists, Elim churches - well, you get the idea - and they can't all be right. But they think they are - and a lot of them seem to think everybody else is wrong.

People are bad - but some are less bad than others, and they all have the potential to be good. But you can't make people good. Civil society creates the circumstance where people make choices - as Graham suggested somewhere up this topic (and I apologise in advance for the paraphrase), it is accepting the consequence of those choices which seems to be the problem, and which promises a solution.

The basic tenets of Christian morality are good - don't lie, don't steal, don't kill, don't cheat, don't judge others, be charitable - but it just seems to me that as soon as these are applied as man made laws, all hell lets loose.

Dan

Hi Dan,

First off, this isn't me railing against you. Here are a few quick answers.
I believe everyone has the right to worship as they choose, as long as that belief causes no harm to others. Most of the things you listed against Christianity were things done in the past. Comparing the death penalty to abortion just doesn't hold water. One is protecting the life of an innocent. The other is taking the life of someone who has been proven guilty of commiting grievous harm to someone else. I also believe if most people lived to the tenets of most religions earth would be a lot better place to live. You will always have your zealots. I don't believe any religion should be judged by them. I believe there are many more good people in most faiths than there ever will be zealots.

The basic question here was about morality. It's true, you can't force anyone to be moral. I believe religion gives us much better guidlines for morality than most of the laws out there. The laws just tell you it is wrong, not why. Again, I'm talking about religion in general. I don't believe any denomination, of any religion, should try to pass itself off as having the only key to heaven. I think the only thing that gains from religions fighting each other is evil. And yes, I do believe in evil.

Personally, I will always believe in the basic goodness of man. I also believe we need laws, and punishment to suit the crime. The main problem is our laws have gotten out of hand. A lot of what has been written, at least lately, protects the guilty far more than the innocent.

Hi John

I suspect that my view of organised religion is coloured somewhat by the fact that I have lived much of my life on an island cursed by its consequences - and by the hypocrisy of many of its practitioners.

Laws should fair - and attempt to bright about what is right, rather than dispense justice. Justice is a much abused term - and if it applied equally, we are all damned.

I accept it is possible to draw a distinction between abortion and the death penalty - but I do not approve of either on the basis that to take someone's life is wrong under any circumstances. Of course, different denominations define the 6th (or sometimes 5th) commandment differently. Again, interpretation!

thanks for the reply - something to think on!

Dan

Hi Dan,

I did note where you live before my reply. I do understand. A lot of the hipocrisy you witnessed was done by people who had their values drummed into them from birth by misguided leaders. Your country has had a very troubled past, not only religous, but civil. It definitely doesn't make it easy to see anything about religion in a good light.
Laws should be fair, they should also not be so convoluted it takes forever to find someone guilty of a crime. I do believe in justice. If I saw someone harming an innocent, I might very well take my own. Then I would have to be judged, by my actions. I believe the only deterrant to real crime is punishment. Why would anyone not commit a crime again if all they got was a slap on the wrist. I also don't believe we made all criminals become criminals.
I personally don't believe in abortion unless it is the best option for the fetus, or the health of the mother. It should not be an easy out for someone who just doesn't want a child.
The death penalty I do believe in. But that has nothing to do with religion, at least with me. It also has nothing to do with revenge. It has to do with making sure that person never has the opportunity to perform that act, or influence another person to do the same. I don't believe in warehousing criminals who will never get out. But both of these are persomal beliefs. I will never try to force feed them to someone else. I will state my views. I believe in standing up for what you believe is right. I think that is an integral part of morality.

Just noticed this on the sidebar. Usually I just say in Tampa, but being the season that is is, I thought I'd add my .02

You see what you look for in this world. You attract what you give.

Any and all attention to the negatives just breeds more.
Any and all attention to the positives breeds more.

Give attention to what makes you feel good!

Happy Holidays!

All the stars above
Is what we're made of
There in the atoms of all time
There is love

Rumblings of life created a wonder
Rising as one on this land
There was a need for words to be spoken
When there was greed, they were damned.

End.

We're songwriters! (Most on JPF anyway). Maybe pick out a few lines from your songs, or write some new ones to explain your viewpoints, especially about religion, where misunderstandings and misinterpretation of the tone of voice not actually heard can occur.
John

A drowning man will clutch at straws.
whilst his life ebbs and flows.
He prays to God to give him aid
but God never answers any pleas he made.

The third time that he was going down
He was pretty certain that he would drown
Just when about to give up hope
A lifeguard threw him a long strong rope.

The moral is simple it is quite clear.
Don't trust in god when a lifeguard is near.
Odds of God helping are next to nil.
He never could He never will.

St. Peter met him at the gates,
Despite that rope, he drowned,
Instead of reaching out he prayed,
So one last time he went down.

The man asked Peter why the Lord,
Didn't save him beyond all hope,
Pete said, "God sent you that lifeguard, son,
You should have grabbed the rope."

There is more than one way to be like someone or something least of all being to look the same or even similar...

You are not alone Everett. Remember Jesus was also in a minority in His day. Some denied Him then and some deny Him still. He gave man a free will then and He continues to give man that same free will today. Life is full of choices. The choice (and it is a choice) to believe and trust in Him or not, is the most important decision any human will ever make for it will determine their eternal destiny. Some will make the right choice, sadly some will not.