JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Live Performances.

Reading the various posts it is obvious that a lot of JPF songwriters never or very rarely perform their songs live. How many of you actually perform your songs on a regular basis? Or do you just write, record, then post on say Soundclick or a similar forum.
I think performing a song live to an audience is a valuable tool to assess it for audience reaction, popularity and potential. Only then would I commit time and money to making a demo. If the demo is up to standard then and only then would I consider posting it or pitching it. The A&R job should not be seperating wheat from chaff but selecting from the creme de la creme.
PS Your wife, neighbours or aunt Mary do not really make good, informed, unbiased judgements.

I would like to perform more live but don't get invited to do so,I wonder why,it can't be that I am that bad a singer,can it.LOL They do let me sing in church once in a while and nobody leaves,that's a good sign isn't it?LOL

C'mon Everett you cannot count a captive audience. They are there for God. Anything else is just the warm up act. Lol

I haven't found anyone who wants to listen/watch me play the only instrument I can play--the radio.
I can tune one in when no one else can but it's not much of a draw. :>)

A lot of writers are not performers, but they do study, write and understand songs. Why would they go in front of an audience?

Hi Lyle I am simply trying to establish why folk capable of writing a song are afraid to perform it. I also want a rough idea as to what percentage are writers only and who are both writers and performers. You ask why would they go in front of an audience. I would ask why not.

I perform some of my songs - my style as a performer is rather limited, whereas my style as a songwriter is more varied. I don't want to disservice any song of mine by performing it badly, so that's why i don't perform them all myself.

For me, performing and songwriting are two different art forms - sure, you can be good at both but being bad (or not so good) at one doesn't mean you can't do the other, eg singers need songwriters and vice versa.

Actually, i wrote a post about this on my blog dedicated to songwriting and music recording - i'm not sure if the forum rules allow me to put a link to my own website in a post so i wont, but if you click on the link in my signature, the post is dated from 27th November.

I perform regularly, covers & originals. I take my songs to open mics, sing them with my trio at gigs, etc. I think it is valuable to sing your songs for an audience, however, not every songwriter is a performing songwriter.

In that case I would suggest joining a songwriters group where you might do a songwriter's circle, but only for each other, with the aim of feeling out how a song works & perhaps getting a little feedback.

Failing that, then the option left is record a worktape & put it up for feedback.

H

I used to perform all the time. But lately my songs are written with the intention of being complete arrangements, and a guy and his guitar can't do justice to them. Well, some, maybe...but the tapes are what I'm shooting for...live performance isn't always the intention.

That said, I also agree with Big Jim that you will definitely learn plenty from people's reaction to your live performance.

Big Jim,

I performed 25 - 30 nights a month for over 40 years. I have made more money playing music than I have everything else in my life combined. I would play regularly if there was a venue in which to do so. Here in the States...not everywhere, but in many areas...venues for live music other than rock are few and far between. I live in the St. Louis, Missouri area...about 2.4 million folks total in the metro area...I can count on one hand the number of venues that have live music in the genres I perform.

My wife and I were having a general philoshophical discussion the other day. She asked me what I thought was most missing in my life. I told her unquestionably it was performing live. I have performed for anywhere from a dozen folks to over 5,000 in the audience. The thrill is the same for either audience.

It certainly isn't a matter of stage fright...it simply a matter of finding a stage.

Al

Good Post Big Jim...Performing your own songs to a live audience?
Without a shadow of a doubt,that is the best route for any songwriter.You just cannot beat the buzz of a live audience.Now iam fully aware of the limitations and obstacles for Songwriters e.g. finding gigs and live venues,confidence in performing live,experience of performing,and most importantly, finding the right audience for your material to perform to..it really is a big melting pot of probabilities..BUT..at the end of the day..how do you get your songs out there? it is very difficult to get your material out there if there is not an outlet for it..people must hear it,if it has to stand a chance...Then you have to network the material if you think it is good enough...and that takes time, and cash..to get it to a level where you can compete...Ask yourself this question...how many songs do you have in your CD or record collection by an unknown singer/songwriter..The internet would be the best tool for the songwriter who can write a good song but does not perform..e.g. finding collaborators,or vocalists..or reputable demo houses to do your material justice..BUT..it still brings you back to the start position,you still gotta go down the established routes..the REAL answer to this question is..how committed is the Songwriter in his/her craft..if you want to get your songs out there..if you do not perform.it can still be done, tho it may be a long way round for a short-cut,it IS possible..but it is a strong test of will and determination...Good Topic..Cheers ..Terry..

I've been playing 300 dates a year for 20 years, and would never THINK of recording any of my originals until they were "road-tested". I usually play out my new stuff for at least a year before I record them.

Thanks all. Now we are getting somewhere. At least it is food for thought for all writers. GET YOUR STUFF PLAYED LIVE Is the message. If you cannot or will not play it yourself then get someone else to do it. Bob had a great point about a road test. I would never dream of demoing until I have played it live. Save a lot of time money and effort. Sadly Al's point about fewer live gigs rings all too true. But what the heck maybe if more original music was played live then we could "open" more venues.
One final thought instead of chasing rainbows with the big boys pitch your songs to a local band or artist. They will perform your music to local audiences and announce it as your song. It is a stepping stone and will gain YOU experience and a possible following or fan base. They might even record it. Make sure you have a contract or whatever to protect yourself and your music.

Hi Jim and All

I perform almost every week at an open mics. I've only been playing music and writing for a few years so all the practice I can get playing out helps. In general folks want to hear songs that they know (covers). But I try to stick in one or two of my own and slowly people start to tap and sing along if they like it. Today I played a whole hour of my own songs live for an open house event among several other songwriters. So the opportunities are out there if you are willing to play and network. Here's a link to find an open mic in the us and canada for those interested. jm

http://openmikes.org/

Well,
I would guess that the huge majority of songwriters over the decades didn't perform their songs live anywhere. There is no reason for a songwriter to perform unless they just want to. Practically every Major Artist didn't write their own songs but relied on songwriters. If you can write and are a very good performer OK. But it isn't for everybody.

Thanks for the link,i was recently laid off and plan on taking advantage of this new found time to hit as many open mikes as my energy will alow,there are alot more in my area than i thought.

Anne.

Hi Ray. There are plenty of reasons why a songwriter needs to learn to perform. Most have been highlighted in this thread. I would say that any songwriter who cannot or will not play his song is at a distinct disadvantage to someone who can. It is also much cheaper to play and sing on your own demo rather than hire someone else to do it. In fact I can see of no reason why a songwriter would not want to perform other than through inability to play or an embarassment about the song's quality. If you can learn to play an instrument and compose songs then you should be able to learn to perform those songs. Not all great artists relied on songwriters many wrote all their own material including most rock bands and folk singers.

People often seek agreement to validate their opinion. It isn't necessary. Our feelings are valid simply because we have them.

I don't think it makes all that much difference whether you perform what you write. What is important, IMHO, is being 100% committed to what you enjoy doing most.

Howdy Jim!

I was a performer loooong before I even considered writing.
It took me years to get the nerve to play my own stuff live. Part of it was playing solo which I hadn't done until about 2 years ago. The other part was playing untested homemade songs in the cold, cruel world. It took a very long time to get comfortable with it even with years and years of performance experience. For me, there is a huge jump in stress level playing original stuff. I still do it though because it is necessary. If I don't play 'em who will???

Here in L.A. there are no shortages of venues. You can pretty much get a show whenever you want (maybe not where you want, but whenever you want). The tricks here are: 1) getting paid (good bloody luck!), 2) getting people to show up, 3) and getting invited back (see #2).

"Uncle" Chuck

PS> I dunno if my wife makes good or informed judgements, but she can make ruthlessly unbiased judgements! Yikes!

I claim I perform because I have to. (I have grown to like it. But crowds still scare me.) I am trying to get exposure for my material. Exposure means somebody has to play it. When I want to know who's going to play it, I am forced to look in the mirror.

And yes, it is a good test of what's "good," and one I'm not sure I could replicate any other way. It's "good" if people ask for it again. For that to happen, they have to hear it the first time. Haven't figured out a way to do it other than to perform it.

Joe

Hi Chuck If we could magically combine all three points in our favour we would all be happy. We get plenty gigs WHERE we want them gigs with packed audiences AND get paid.... Nirvanna.......

When you jump off the high dive for the first time you think you are going to die. Next time you are afraid. Third no big deal. Then it just becomes fun and you show off.

I have never had a problem with crowds except for the fact that I TEND TO SCARE THEM.

As someone else said for themselves....I pretty much perform out of necessity. My songs aren't written with having someone in mind to perform them. I really never wanted to be a performer, but I've become comfortable with it and actually look forward to it and enjoy it most of the time.

As a songwriter, I really think it is a benefit to perform your own songs regardless of whether you want to be a performer for the song or you have someone else in mind. The audience feedback towards the song being performed is good, but there's also a connection you have to relaying a song that you have written that no one else can get - something that can't be explained in words - it's a 'you have to do it' type thing.

Steve

I do get to perform my material live. Since my genre is gospel, I don't have a hard time finding venues at local churches. Outside of church I perform at schools and various community events. I have often been able to perform at work related functions and fundraising events.

Like another poster, I was a performer before I started writing, so the two go hand in hand for me. If I write it, I know I'm performing it at some point. Down the road, I'll intentionally write songs for others to perform.

Stanley

Hmmm, Jim. People go to bars to drink and socialize. Unless they are already a fan, they aren't there for the artist anymore than church congregation is. Likewise coffee houses.

Like Everett and Stanley, I perform my songs in church but on a regular basis. My music is created for congregational singing and people let us know when they like or don't like the music. (If they don't tell us, they tell the pastor, LOL.) When the song is intended for audience participation and the congregation jumps right in and sings along, then you know the song is well received. Sometimes they come up and tell you which songs they appreciate but the coolest way to find out is when the people walk out of the church humming your tunes. I also teach liturgical music at school and you know your song is a hit when the kids beg to sing your songs as a reward song.

Jean I think that there are similar lessons to be learned from both your church music and my cabaret/entertainment type of stuff. People go to clubs and bars to drink socialise and be ENTERTAINED. People go to church to worship and entertain God so sometimes they may have to perform music that is not to their own personal taste or liking.
We all, if we are serious or consider ourselves pros and want paid, sometimes have to perform "punter stuff." That is STANDARD cover music proven to fit the requirements of the audiences and their expectations.
Most performers at some time or another reluctantly have to perform material that they do not really want to perform at a time when they would prefer to be somewhere else and in a place they do not really want to be. It goes with the territory.
I have had arguments with folk that say they will only play what they want to play when they want to play it. This of course is utter nonesense and they are kidding themselves on. They are eitherjust hobbyists out for self gratification and ego boosting or are selfish ignorant folk who have no respect for an audience.
Any job requires people to do things they do not really want to do. The mark of a true pro is to oblige folk by giving them what they want when they want it.

Jim, if all we ever did was to play cover songs, there would be no new music. I think it depends on the venue you play at and the billing. Many of them have audiences that do want to hear old favorites and current popular stuff. However there are some venues which feature performers with original music and the audiences expect that. Hopefully the performing songwriter is writing music they enjoy and can relate to.

I like the smorgasbord approach myself. A nice variety. It's a good way to introduce new music and give everyone a little something they enjoy. I wonder how the "big names" did things before they were famous? Did they cover other people's songs and sneak some of their own in, or did they just go for it and perform their own music?

Hi Jean first and foremost performers MUST keep the audience happy. That is a given. If it is expected for you to play your own original music then that is what you do. Same applies to covers. If they want covers you give them covers. OK you can put your own style or slant on them. There is enough room for both covers and new music and I like performing both.
Most live bands perform cover stuff until they have a fan base or have as you say hit the bid time. With solo artists it is quite different. Most solo acts play acoustic music generally for listening to as opposed to dancing to.
In my experience as a gigging band or solo cabaret folk on a night out want to dance to music they know. Whereas there are some small acoustic folk music venues and coffee shops where people may want to listen to original music.
I have always played the larger type of venues where a crowd of 200 plus want to boogie as opposed to a handful of people who like to relax and listen to acoustic music and that is what I base my observations on.
Anyways it does not matter, the important point is that a good band or artist/entertainer will be able to please an audience by playing what they want to hear as opposed to what the artist just wants to play. Anything else is doing an audience and yourself no favours.
It should also be pointed out that singer songwriters performing is a whole different ball game to a pro gigging rock band/cabaret act.

Respectfully Jim, neither do many live audiences make those same judgments, as far as what the music industry folks are really wanting at that time for their artists. Some could also be drunk, or heading that way.

I've heard many songwriters even at no drinking coffee houses that need a lot of help writing,,,never mind playing or singing, and they still get the polite and sometimes even loud applause just for having the guts to get up there. Many times, it's even fellow songwrters who later say in confidence that "whoa,,,,is that guy really bad or what?,,,but were one of the ones smiling and clapping after their songs. NO factor,,,,songwriters and MOST crowds at MOST venues. Probably exceptions somewhere,,,but I wouldn't base "professional" songwriting on polite or maybe fueled listeners. Got to base that on what the market wants at the time, and knowing how to craft those songs and properly demo them.

NO barring as to what the publishers or A&R reps, or artists, (if they even have a choice now), care about, (a writer making a demo based on coffee house or bar playing and applause.) Just not even in the same industry really. Claps and praise are easy to get out, is my point. Especially when really bad, among other songwriters. ("Let's make him feel good anyway"). And ("Hey,,,that was cool man"!).....Thanks says the songwriter, and thinks what? If smart, he knows the business, and wouldn't base his songwriting skills as they are relevant to what is wanted by publishers, on playing them out and getting some "Yeahs"!!

The only way a songwriter, (NOT talking about an artist who writes songs, or a band), can tell if their song is ready to demo or not, is to know what the industry wants, and to craft songs to fit the needs of whatever publisher or Taxi or similar opportunities are asking for, and knowing you have that. That can take the assistance and advice of others who have been, or are in the music business, and know the real workings of this business.

Playing out is very helpful for artists, of course,,for that is the only way to establish sales of CD's enough to maybe capture some attention, IF the style of those songs, and age of the band, (looks too), are what the labels are looking for. But even for them, not even a instant applause of seemingly greatness of a song is really a gauge for what the industry wants.

Songwriters? It's in the knowing of the craft that is wanted. If that didn't matter, or wasn't the real judgment, we all would already have real hits and Grammy's. Even the bad ones at many venues all over the world who demoed their songs based on people at clubs or coffee houses should have hits, if going by the premise of having to get public approval before spending money making a demo. Wish it were the case!

I play out, and present the songs we want to present. I played out solo and played a song that Brian wanted me to play out. Great responses. As of yet, not wanted by labels that have heard it. They might like it,,,but that has nothing to do with anything, other than they like it.,,,,just like the people songwriters play for.

John

Just for info I am in a band and that is what I was referring to. As for your point about drunken applause. I see where you are coming from but most experienced performers CAN tell the difference and know how to test the waters properly. I think that there is a very big difference between a solo hobbyist performer trying out own compositions at a writers workshop or coffee house and a pro band playing their latest work at a paid gig.

I was going by what you first said.

Many are writers,,,just like writers of past days that were in the Brill building....Only write.
John

Playing wise, sure....but fans can still show up at progigs plastered ya know! It's in the sales,,,,and even then....??? (IFFF we're talking what you first said,,,about knowing what to demo,,,(which means for publishers mainly). For JPF songwriters

John we are on the same wavelength. Just differ I think because the music scene in the US is very different from here in the UK. There are more bands here than there are solo singer songwriters these are very thin on the ground. Most chart stuff is either indie type bands or manufactured popstars singing commercial karaoke type covers. We do not really have a country scene or a Mecca like Nashville that looks for original music.

Probably why The Beatles were able to write their own music, after being challenged by Martin to "come up with good songs then".

I'm half English, and have family still there,,,hundreds of years, if not thousands going back. ("Gant", and other names of course, but don't know my blood related grandmother's maiden name.....long, but good story). I've been there twice as a kid and want to return to where I refer to as "Me motherland". One question, does the music scene for original bands exist as much as for cover bands, (Get more than open mic nights?) And do they except baby boomers as well as young bands, for performing, and for selling original CD's? (I know,,,,depends on if good or not, but in general I mean?

Thanks for the respectful exchanges here!
John

Hi John. There is a huge scene here for indie bands who mostly play original music. There is also a pub/club scene where bands are expected to play dance or rock covers mostly sixties and seventies. These two scenes are very seperate and few bands cross over. We do have open mic events but they do not attract many solo artists singing original stuff. It is more like a jam session where experienced bands get to play cover songs with each other. It is interesting and sometimes challenging as you sometimes have to play a song you do not know very well with a band line up you have never played with. Most folk who participate are very accomplished players who can adapt and busk. We do not really have an amateur night and very little country or acoustic music is ever played. So you maybe can see how my opinions and experiences are slightly different from yours. Pro bands can work a few times a week and earn reasonable cash from playing covers. It is a living. In past lives I have played original stuff and made a few recordings with bands some have made it into the big time some have not. At present due to contractual issues it is difficult for me to produce original music without it being "stolen". However come 2008 things change as contracts run out so here is hoping I can start writing again without FEAR OR hinderance.

I agree that songwriters who can sing/play their songs for an audience (that is actually listening to them) can get instant feedback that can be extremely valuable on many levels, but that type of venue is difficult to find in many areas.

Even if you are lucky enough to have an outlet like this available to you there are still a lot of factors at work that have to be taken into account. People listen, appreciate, dislike songs for as many reasons as there are people.

I have played for hundred of audiences in many different types of situations and even when it wasn't necessarily called for I usually managed to sneak in some original material, for my own enjoyment if for no other reason. I agree that those of us who can do both absolutely should but I also think that writers who can't or won't perform their own material will usually find ways of getting their songs heard/critiqued that we don't necessarily take advantage of.

There is also the case of the songwriter that writes in many different genres/styles and can't perform in them all. (or any)

Like so many other artistic endeavors, songwriting requires a certain amount of skill/ability but the art element means that there is no right or wrong way to do it. The concept of getting paid for it is what forces us to look for the approval of as many people as possible.