JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum "i don't go to sites to listen to music..."

it's all about this age of technology we have now and the mind sets of some in the process of screening, listening, introducing and connecting with music.
numerous times, i have encountered individuals who have posted on this forum and through emails who still have an open door policy to listen to music. at this stage, they're all about using the technology to contact people. i contact them with a post reply or a private email. i explain how i've set up my website, cataloging music into genres and that a simple "click" would tell the listener if my music was even worthy of them to follow up. not a difficult task and not one that would take anymore time than it did to respond with an email saying "i don't go to sites to listen to music. send me a cd with 2 of your best songs... blah, blah, blah.
in this day and age, where it is so convenient to establish a web presence and build on it for the sake of promoting your art, what is the problem with the couple of minutes it takes to listen to streaming audio as opposed to the expense of packaging, mailing, burning the platter, the receiver opening the mail (if they ever really do!), placing the disk into a cd player and listening?
consumers world-wide log on to music sites to shop, sample, listen and download songs. it is the one reason my download sales through cdbaby have surpassed physical cd sales and the trend is growing. if it works so well on the back end, why shouldn't it work on the front end?
i even find it perfectly logical to point a publisher or a&r person to your cdbaby page... i would think they would not only hear your best shots, but learn a little something about you in the process.
could someone attempt to enlighten me as to the reasons this "mail 3 songs on a 1/4" reel / 8-track / cassette" mindset is still alive and kicking?
and the other turn of the cheek is... if they love to do the email thing and post on forums, why can't they accept an mp3?
this rant and my opinion is in no way connected to any rational think tank east of the st. john's river.
rock on,
r.

You want a thoroughly cynical answer? (I don't know for sure.) I would attribute the insistence on archaic media (&c.) to three causes: (1) It makes you put out some effort (and time and money), so you realize how important they are. (2) By making you put out some effort (and time and money), it reduces the number of submissions. And (3) they weren't interested in hearing anybody's stuff anyway.

When I visited Nashville last summer, the only music publisher I actually got to talk to didn't ask for any of those things. She had only one question: "You got a MySpace?" (Yes. Gave her a card.) "I'll check it out."

Joe

I can add one more to Joe's list
4) they listen to submissions in the car on the way to/from work

Well,
It has been generally known that those that are seeking songs, Artists/Publishers will most likely want a physical CD to listen to a song(s). An Artist/Producer may listen to 2000 songs before they condense down to the final list. And most serious players will not listen to songs on a Web Site. I would much rather send the CD so they can listen more than once if they are considering one of my songs. They may forget a song or writer if they listen to sound files on a Web Site but if they have it in hand the first pass may materialize into making the final cut.

At present I don't have songs on a Web Site. The Publisher I work with has decided to give it another go so I may have some songs posted before long. I actually have done both in the past. I suscribe to a Tip sheet and when I find someone on the Net looking for songs I will send them to the Web Site. I rarely pitch to Publishers anymore but Artists/Producers actually looking for songs for a named artist. You may want to pick up the new Songwriter's Market maybe in the book stores now or soon. Good luck.

One thing I might add. Most Publishers are already loaded down with material so getting heard is tough to say the least. Don't give up.

hey joe...
i don't think your answer is cynical at all... in fact i'm thinking you're right on target. especially number 3. i think they go through the motions and most mailed packages end up in a large outdoor garbage can behind their desks... unless they actually do screen stuff to get "ideas" for re-writes! (now i'm being cynical!)
also, if they don't think putting up a multi-meg website isn't an expense... they're not dealing with a full deck either.
interesting conversation about the myspace! did she ever get back to you?
rock on.
r.

Sending CDs through the mail was costing me hundreds of dollars a year,so I cut back.I have song up on sites where they can listen,if they find something interesting,I can send them a hard copy with lyrics.I've had just as much success doing it this way with a lot less cost and work.

I thought that our songs on our site wouldn't get heard by anybody in any top media business. Then out of the blue, us not even soliciting, a TV producer was surfing mp3.com for songs to be used for one of his particular shows. I got an email from him asking us to issue a license for such and such, with all the details given. We said something like, "How about that"! THEY found us"!

So, based on that, (he can't be the only one), there are probably many pros listening at home on their computers than we might think. And that was in 2001. So, imagine all the music on many more sites to listen to now!

I suggest to include your music sites on any soliciting correspondence. We got listened to without even doing that!

John

And...... it seems like many only have a 4 minute drive which explains keeping a song around 3 minutes in length! (sorry, just couldn't resist)

and i ain't buying that they need a cd to listen to on their drive to and from work... we all know they have a cellphone stuck to their heads from the time they leave the driveway... besides, i-pods and i-phones also play your songs!
rock on.
r.

I figure if I ever get those dream recordings I am working on, I would have to go through the channels.
Much to be heard seems to be through connections and who we know.
I don't know if technology has really changed that fact.
Though technology has seemed to change expectations.
Now anyone can hear anyone play and there is really no set of expectaitons in place for it.
Almost like going from too little to do with to get heard and going straight to too much to do with.
Some people still can't muster putting something up unless there is that effort to make it professional.
But this mass media culture has made it much easier to get a perspective on a more passable recording than peddaling to a local college dj for a listen and an opinion.
So there is the good with the bad.

Many people go on the net thinking they will get discovered or sell cd's.
Which, to anyone that has been on the net for a certain length of time knows that could'nt be further from the truth.
The internet is definately a vehicle. But it still takes good old fasioned marketing, people skills, and getting back on that horse no matter how often thrown off.

Matt

Mail a CD ? C'mon... whataya mean ? The only time a CD is needed is when the WAV file needs to be loaded to be used in another medium. A publisher that doesn't accept mp3's either emailed or from a download link is not a publisher.....just some guy stuck in a time warp. I wouldn't waste my time or effort.

cheers, niteshift

I can add one more to Joe's list
4) they listen to submissions in the car on the way to/from work
Yep Vikki.
And that is why a site that has play all new (with skip that ability) and burn all played facility will get the business ears.
They can set it in motion while shaving etc and have it to play ias they comute no matter how they do it, and have their follow ups if any all lined up by the time they hit the office.
Graham

In answer to the question about the music publisher: No, she never got back to me. I assume she did check it out (she did seem like one of those serious types who would do what she said she was going to do), and I therefore assume she just didn't like what she heard. (T.A.N.A.F.T., remember--There Ain't No Accounting For Taste.)

Joe

Aw c'mon now guys. I just looked at a couple pages of my last pitch list----29 leads----14 asked for C D's. Out of the other 15
"one" gave a web address to mail MP3's to. Even the ones who didn't specify CD's ,all gave their complete mailing address. "No one" asked for your web address so they could listen to your stuff.
I can understand completely their not wanting to go to your site to listen., like --slow loading--doesn't play right--seems to be a problem today, etc. etc.
You may "wish" it was so easy as to just tell 'em to go to your site and listen. Sure, a few will, but way in the minority from what I've seen.
As mentioned, they can put a bunch of Cd's in an automatic player and go on with whatever they were doing. If something catches their ear they'll bring it back up 99% is trash anyway or not what they want. Right, they put some in the player in their car when they're driving and so on.
Wy

Dear readers,

Well, I guess I better confess. I'm a Nashville music publisher, and I recently opened my doors for outside (of Nashville) writers, inviting them to submit music to me providing they request permission by email to do so, and I have told people who've contacted me that "I don't go to websites to review material". (See my 'improved, but still under construction" website...www.writethismusic.com, which incidentally, I was horrified to learn (yesterday) doesn't function properly on Netscape or Firefox, and in 1 case on IE. I assure you these problems will be fixed soon. I'm still learning more than I ever wanted to learn about web site programming, but obviously I have more to learn.)

As to why I don't go to websites, I'd like to explain why, and there are several reasons. But first I'd like to say I completely understand how someone may view this as an unreasonable request.

The main reason I rule it out is time. I don't want to have to spend my time searching through your stuff. I'm willing to spend my time listening to your stuff, not spend my time surfing for it first, THEN listening to your stuff. I get a ton of stuff delivered to me by people in town, in the format I specify, which, incidentally, is the format requested by just about every publisher I know. I also want to have something physical I can have on hand so I can quickly copy and pitch without having to download to my computer, taking up my disk real estate, then burn a CD, then email you for the lyrics. The most valuable contact I have on the west coast has the same policy, and you won't find any major publisher in Nashville who will go to your site to 'find' material they like that you've written, by you sending them an email asking them to do so. It's just not going to happen. I'm quick to add that I'm not a 'major' Nashville publisher...I'm an independent. But I like they way the majors do things...I figure there are reasons they are majors so I try to implement as many of their approaches as I possibly can.

Here's something interesting: Everyone in Nashville charged with listening to the 'unsolits' (unsolicited material sent in from out of town) has developed the rather unique skill of being able to spot 90% of the non professional or non-serious packages (which correlates highly with 'bad songs') simply by looking at the envelope. This is not an exaggeration...I listened to submissions for a major for 2 years...it's a bit of a 'rite of passage' for newbies by which much is learned. You'd be amazed by what gets sent in...it's absolutely unbelievable...and literally, hands down, no exaggeration, I lie to you not, 95% of the material submitted is absolutely horrid. (I'd say more like 99%, but you might not believe me.) That baffled me as it does anyone who dares accept the daunting task of opening outside submissions, but it's the God's honest truth. That said, if you mail me something in the mail I will learn a bit about how you conduct business right off the bat, and if you don't do it well, I won't have to waste my time finding out by listening to your music. Then again, your material might be mailed in just right and still be absolutely horrible, but I'll have at least listened to it. If I receive a flaky package, (ie. writing DO NOT XRAY!!! in red on your envelope, or stapling 25 times BEFORE sealing shut with 5 winds of duct tape) it might be great, but I won't ever know because I won't ever open it...and neither will anyone else who's serious about finding good songs from serious writers.

More reasons:

It's also a security risk in that I could pick up a virus, which I'm not too concerned about with my virus checkers in place, but no risk is no virus.

It's also simply wanting to have it in my hand and have a copy of the lyric sheet when I listen. I learn much by seeing how the lyrics are presented and I see things I might miss if I only heard the song. We get a lot of 'blank' CDs. Someone who doesn't check his work is a bad business risk.

I also ask for 'your two best songs'. I want to know what YOU think is YOUR best work. I don't want to have to ask you, "What are your two best songs", then go to your link, then try to find them, and go to another link to see the lyrics (if you've posted them).

Slow loading of some sites, having to deal with myspace.com and all the crap that goes with that in trying to find stuff on everyone's custom made, rather uniquely designed pages are more reasons. I don't want to read about you. I don't want to hear about your band and where you're playing and your new lead singer, etc. etc. I want to hear your music.

Having to re focus my computer from activities I was working on is another hassle. For instance, if I'm mixing in Samplitude, I have to quit and get out to free my soundcard to listen to mp3s.

I figure some publishers go to websites to listen to music, and if that's a criteria someone has in finding a publisher they feel comfortable with, that's well and good. and that's by all means your choice But I've chosen not to. I'm sorry if that's an inconvenience...I know it would be easier for you guys/gals if I did. But that's the way I want to do it, and I assure you I have more than enough writers who are eager to do whatever it takes so it's not like I'm hurting for people outside of Nashville who want me to listen to songs...in fact, I'll probably have to stop taking outside stuff in the not too distant future since I'm getting so much...I'm a bit overwhelmed.

The last reason, and lowest down on the list but one that's shared by many of the publishers I work with on Music Row, is one that I hope won't offend anyone as it's sincerely not meant to so so; here goes: I want to listen to stuff that someone is not just able to submit to me by following my simple, yet specific, submission requirements, but is willing to do so as well. After all, by listening to someone's material, I'm doing something FOR THEM, at THEIR request, to provide a FREE song evaluation on THEIR 2 songs, using MY time. I'm willing to do that for you if you'll honor a few simple requests that make that process a little easier for me. If someone can follow instructions and respect my time enough to do it the way I'd like it to be done it shows me, if nothing else, that they appreciate me using the time that I'll be spending listening to their material to evaluate their songs at no charge, and are willing to show me their appreciation by being meet a few very reasonable requests that will make my life easier in doing so. A little respect goes a long way.

2 questions:

1. If you read about a job in the paper that you wanted to apply for, and they said, "Send resume to:....", would you email them and tell them to get your resume off your website or would you send them a resume in the mail?
2. What if someone said they had a favor to ask of you, but rather than them asking the favor, they told you had to go to a website and 'find' from a list of many favors, the one that they want to ask of you because they've been spending too much time and money the old way, which was sending you a note specifying the favor they want to ask, so this time they'd like YOU bear some of the expense by having YOU spend more of YOUR time and YOUR resources ((disk space, blank CDs, printing paper and ink to print out lyrics) than you used to by first finding out what the favor is by finding it on a website...and all this before you spend the time it takes you to do them a favor? I ask, would you be beating down the door to do them a favor? Or would you wait for someone to ask you a favor who tried thier very best to make it as little of an inconvenience as possible?

Sincerely and respectfully,

Bill Renfrew
www.writethismusic.com

Bill,
That does make perfect sense.

There are times with my day job that we accept submissions/applications that are often over 20-50 pages. For us to accept and review, we require they submit a specific number of copies because we don't want viruses, don't want to print and copy it all. We can't manage it.

Thanks,
Dave

What bill says definately makes sense to get heard.
But I am a non-conformist, anti-professional that still wants to be big enough to respect the professional point of view.
If I gave a submission, no matter if the best musicians were on that, it would most likely find a spot in a trash can.

I will never be a musicians musician or probably never learn to play at the pro-school level to save my life.
But I have a hechuva lot of song ideas.

I would most likely have to get hooked up in my locality or the nearest thing to that that offers my chance to be heard by a publisher.
Who I know that does music professionally publishes themselves.
But I have no business savvy other than to watch out for spammers that try and solicit eager musicians.

Who outside my locality would give me the time of day, unless they were probably out to scam me?

Matt

I don't know why you say that your songs would automatically wind up in the trash. That's very frustrating for me to hear an artist talk about his work like it's going to be spit on before it gets out of the package just because he/she isn't 'up to the level' of the pros. Why? Because, I have to admit, I thought the very same things and the same way about myself.

Some of the best songwriters in this town can barely play an instrument...I'm not exaggerating. A guy who wrote a HUGE hit for Deena Carter (sp?) played that hit at the Bluebird and I was cringing because it sounded like absolute CRAP...he could barely play, and he sang so badly I practically had to hold my ears. But man, that song...what a killer. There are many like him...can't sing, can't play, but they sure as heck can write great songs. That's what's great about songwriting...you don't have to be the next great player/singer to really knock it out of the park....and you can be butt ugly too.

In 2 weeks that i've communicated with people in this group I've gotten 3 songs with amazing potential...songs that may need tweaking, songs that may have to be re-written, songs that I may not even be able to use to pitch (because of the market), but they're cool songs and they make me smile. That's all that matters to me anymore. Finding great songs. I don't care who writes them, but I don't want to talk about who they need to (you know what) to get ahead...I want to talk about what they can do next time to write a better song. When I focus on that other crap about 'getting in' and 'connecting' and all the hubbub you read about that we're supposed to do to 'make it', to market ourselves, to get in with some producer, I find myself lost, depressed and feeling like I"m a failure. The biggest mistake people make when coming here is entering the fight without having their guns loaded. ANYONE who comes here can get a one on one sit down meeting with Joe Galante if they try hard enough...but very few will be granted a second meeting.

It's not about who you know, it's about what you write, learning a very very difficult craft that takes YEARS to hone, and the relationships that happen along the way. The people who move here because they love music stay and find some level of success, whatever it is they've decided success to them may be. The people who come here cause they heard a bad song on the radio and said, "I can do better than that...I'm gonna go get rich" leave here bitter, frustrated, and very pissed off...and many of them stop writing, and that's the saddest part of the story. If they don't leave they try and make money off people like some of you who are reaching out to find someone to trust. My friend says he'd bet his house that no less than 85% of the people in Nashville that came here to make it as artists or writers are now trying to make money off of OTHER peoples music, not their own. Pretty wild, eh? I'll add to that...I believe most of the folks who try to rip you off are people who are bitter because they feel THEY got ripped off..they feel like THEY were snubbed. They feel like THEY didn't get their fair shake...someone just threw THEIR song in the trash. Maybe they didn't have the talent. Then again, maybe they listened to other people too much and believed what other peoople had to say about their music instead of believing in what they love more than anything...their music...and then gave up.

I hear the same attitudes in Nashville that I hear in some posts here. And i confess, I felt very much the same way about 5 years ago...I'm glad I got out of that trap. Now I know I can write songs. I'm positive I'll find success. Will I get lucky and get a cut? Who knows. I keep trying, but that's not my focus. My focus is on becoming a better writer than I was last week.

When I write something I love, I feel like a winner again. If you love your songs...I mean if YOU REALLY LOVE your songs, I guarantee you someone else will too. If you write something that you think should get cut 'cuz it's like or as good as something on the radio, the best you'll ever be viewed as is 'as good' or 'sounds like' so and so. It took me a long, long time of being frustrated, feeling like I was beating my head against the wall, feeling like the industry was out to snub me because I was....me. Finally, One day I woke up and I said F___ the industry...I love to write! I'm gonna go write something right now. I didn't edit it as i wrote it, I didnt' think about if it was a great idea or not, I didn't ask myself, 'would a Nashville singer use the word 'sonogram' in a song?' (part of it was about becoming a father). I didn't think about anything but what I wanted that song to say. I just wrote it. It's one of the best songs I've ever written. I LOVE it. And so do a lot of other people. Not bragging...they just love hearing someting that's all me, not something that's all Nashville. I even broke a couple rules they tell you not to break...but i don't care 'cuz it's what I wanted to say. If it doesn't get cut, so what. I have a song that i wrote that I love. Will I keep trying to get it cut? Hell yeah I will!

I have a new rule now...every song I write, no matter how much I'm tempted to say, "Nashville won't like that, I better change this and fix that and edit this", instead, I write and produce that song in a way that if I was stuck on a desert island for the rest of my life with one song to listen to, and this is that song, what would I want it to sound like? What would I want to have in it to keep me going? What would last...what would continue to make me feel good that I had created it...What would make ME absolutely LOVE it! When my songs pass that test I've satisfied the ultimate judge of MY music...ME! And what a difference it's made in my writing. When you love your music, other people will too. Yes. your songs might wind up in the trash...but they might not. It's not about techical expertise...leave that to the demo players and singers. Write a song that pulls YOUR heartstrings...not Nashville's...that's when Nashville will start listening. Matraca Berg (Strawberry Wine) said she used to try to get cuts and she failed over and over and over again. Then one day she said, "F___ Nashville! (that gets said a lot here) I want to write songs I love." So she did, and that's when the phone started ringing off the hook. Every successfull writer I've spoken with or heard speak in classes I took or conferences or whatever has been in that trap. I've been in that trap too, and for a lot longer than I care to admit. I got so I dreaded writing. I hated it. When you're in that place, it really sucks.

There's this obsession with finding success that people can develop who are new to the craft or even mid level or above, meaning they won't be happy until they're on the radio being sung by Garth. That's such a huge trap. There are very few songs that wind up on the radio, but there are a LOT of people making it as writers who don't. Sure, that would be great to have a Garth cut. I've been doing this in Nashville now for 10 years and I still don't have a major cut. Had some exciting holds, but no cuts. But I'm loving writing and music more than I ever have before. I sent a song to a friend of mine from the church I go to who happens to have become one of the biggest producers in Nashville over the last 3 years. He also wrote 4 (FOUR!) #1s in 1996. Only 3 other writers tied him. We were friends before all this happened. Naturally everyone who knows him is handing him songs (sometimes at church). Naturally he's a bit overwhelmed. I finally sent him a song the other day for the first time ever...the reason being it was a song I really loved that I'd written with a friend and I wanted him to hear it. Not with the goal of him saying, "Wow, I'm gonna cut that!", but because I just wanted him to hear it. I wanted him to see where I've gotten with my craft. He absolutely loved it and that made my year. The fact that he loved it made me feel like I'm on the right track. But tomorrow if I try and write something cause I know this big producer and it has to be something that I think he'll like cause if it is maybe he'll cut it on his big huge artist, I'll fail and embarrass myself.

So many writers who've posted here sound so bitter, so frustrated, so convinced the industry is out to get them and snub them 'cuz they're not good enough. Write a killer song and all that other crap will take care of itself. i have to believe that or I'd have moved back to Maryland long ago. AS Jim Allison once said to me, "Creme floats to the top. Keep writing."

And if you have really great song ideas, I sure would love to hear some of them. That's one of the really tough parts...finding really great ideas...one of my frustrated buddies says, "All the good ideas are taken". (He thinks the last really great idea was "He Stopped Loving Her Today" by George Jones. I don't believe that for a second.

Sorry to go on and on...I guess I had to get some of this out of my system.

br

Hey Bill, welcome....

Good to read your thoughts, and those of some one who is trying to do both business and make music in the best way they can.

There's a couple of points you've made, so firstly about the CD thing......

Being on the other side of the world, and not being Nashville influenced, I find the whole " must mail a CD " thing a little strange. I guess I'm not looking for "cuts", rather music placement, so it's very much easier to submit mp3's and provide streaming. If the music supervisor is interested, a CD containing the relevant format can be mailed, after the submission has been screened. It saves a lot of time on both ends, and a lot of trees. Relevant to this, is building up solid working relationshiips, which I am endeavering to do with producers, mucic supervisors and directors. I occasionally submit for open cattle calls, but only if the piece is absolutely suited to the requirements of the project. Sending in any old rubbish is simply a waste of everyones's time.

2) You're right, that 95% of the music produced, has no practical purpose other than a creative release for the writer. This applies to my music, and eveyone elses. The reason for this is that it is not screened prior to release, either by qualified industry professionals, or peers such as on this board. Well over 80% of the music that I listen to randomly on various sites, has faults that are so glaring, that in most cases, it needs re-working just to bring it up to an acceptable music standard.

3) Websites such as myspace are not designed primarily for the music element. They are essentially designed as social networking sites. Soundclick is not bad, but iacmusic.com would have to be one of the easiest sites to listen to both streaming radio, and individual artists pages.

4) I would always tailor my presentation in the required format of the requesting party without argument, the same way that a musician plays to an audience, and not for his own personal gratification. It's just much more profitable time wise to do things in an efficient and easy manner.

Which brings me to..... I see you're offering 2 free critiques ?
As an experiment, would you consider dropping by my website, and providing a critique on the songs "Salala" and "Someones Got a Better Hand". They are self evident to find, stream in mp3 in a no-nonsense pop up player, and the page loads at a resonable speed. Link http://iacmusic.com/Artist.aspx?ID=70202

I'd be happy for you to post your critique here if you like, and also to give some thoughts on web page lay out and design, ease of use and navigatable response.

I like different ways of doing business, neither is more correct than another, I think we should all be aware that there are different horses for different courses.

Again welcome, hope you can stay awhile,

cheers, niteshift

For someone living in the USA,it is easy to slip a CD in a padded envelope and mail it,but living in another country,like Canada,it's a little harder.We have to send it as a small packet, which requires extra paper work to be filled out,not to mention the higher cost.I can appreciate where Bill is coming from but that doesn't make it any easier for songwriters from foreign countries to have access to the market.

I was just at an industry conference with well known publishers who absolutely listen for music from submissions, find artists and sign them through the artists websites as a place of first contact, will gladly take a link to a song and give it a listen. If they are truly in the biz, they need great songs and new artists to exploit. Moker

everett, moker... you're right on.
it's all about the mindset and grasp or no grasp of technology. a lot of excuses and personal preferences but the overwhelming evidence is showing it's time for all of the music industry to move into the future... nashville most of all. but then there maybe other reasons for the hesitation there.
you can tell a lot about someone by the quality of their website as well. that too is a first impression. at least your website and digital music hasn't been mauled by the united states postal service and you're "downgraded" on that first impression, which you will probably never hear about.
i don't think one needs a website if you're not going to let the technology work both ways.
rock on.
r.

Everett,
I have a good system set up to send CD'S. I have a stand alone CD Burner that I use. I use 6x9 white envelopes (AMPAD) 28 LB Heavyweight "Pull and Seal". I can put them in my Printer and print from a template I have set up, I just have to add the Address I am sending to. I purchase the thin CD Cases, in bulk, 50 to a pack to place the CD in. My cover letter, very basic is set up as well as lyric sheets I print out. I have a Label with song titles I can insert in the CD Case or use 1x3 inch labels I type info on if needed to add to the CD Case. I don't put labels on the CD itself but write all info with a sharpie. It all works for me.
If you are serious you need to do some preperation to pitch songs. If you want to have people go to a Web Site only you need to indicate which song for them to listen to so they don't get bogged down listening to a lot of songs. As Stated most won't bother unless they are not finding what they need. I have had calls for more material from submissions.

I take time to write songs. I take time to submit those songs.

I have been pushing my music in the best way I know how. Playing gigs no matter what, I try to abide by the words of wisdom, "shut up and sing". I don't believe I sing all that well, but when I sing my own stuff, I feel like Sanatra, or Garth Brooks. (not meant to be a comparison there)
Here is what I have discovered for myself. It's very easy to get caught up in the business and lose track of why you write to begin with. I know I have. So much so in fact just last month, I decided I was going to stop all this foolishness, and go back to trucking. After four years of dedicated "doing something" with my music, I lost track of one thing important to me. Why I write.
I have tried the songwriting workshops, and I mean no disrespect, but i have found that following the "10 best ways to write a #1 one hit" only stifles my creative flow.
I have tried to write according to the industry, and come up with something that seems empty and no dimension.
I will admit, I am somewhat jaded when it comes to the Music Business, and the whole Nashville scene. It has been my experience that it tends to be one huge trap.
It's not that I expect a free ride, but you have to admit, the world of independent artist is chuck full of money grabbers. People who collect wealth based on someone else's dreams. I mean you strip all the press kits down, and the get rid of the MP3s, and what you really have are dreams. I see more and more websites, and companies who claim to have all the connections you need, all you need to do is provide your credit card number. Because of that side of the industry, I am not shocked, that the industry has lost touch with what is important. There are those who argue that spending as much as $500 in order to be heard by the right people, is a viable way of getting rid of those who are not serious, and that might be true, but to me that is simply more of the same from an industry which on the whole has lost sight of why.
The mere fact that Sun Records is a museum, speaks volumes about what has been lost. Consider this... Would a Johny Cash or Bob Dillion of today be allowed to simply stroll into some Acme Records Company from off the street and NOT be asked to leave? I would love nothing more than to find myself one day writing a check to pay my light bill with the satisfaction of knowing the funds came from a song I wrote.
When I read a news letter from some Music Website or service who lay claims to making a beginner famous, I consider all the members who have invested hard earned cash for that. I wonder what the ratio is for that? I mean for every artist/writer they claim to have helped, how many are not helped? I read this last month in American Songwriter that retail sales of CD's are bleeding out to something like 40% decrease. That's huge. The money has to be made up somewhere I suppose.
Sorry for being so jaded. Take everything I say to be utter nonsense, unless you prove it otherwise, how's that?

For what it's worth, I love this Forum. I have thus far read almost half of the recent posts, in all the topics, and find only greatness. I will do my best curtail my cynicism in future posts. I love the artist just not a huge fan of the business. (wink)

Hi Bill,
I like you.
Your answers here were well-thought out and clear. I'm also not surprised that 95% or more of the slush pile is truly slush. I've heard it before. Still, I appreciated your straightforward answers, and the time you put in to explaining how it looks from the other side of the fence.

Linda

Hi Linda.

Thank you very much. That meant a great deal. Yeah, i had to opoen the packages for a pub for 2 years. What a trip. I learned a lot about what not to do when sending in a package, that's for sure...and most of what i learned had nothing to do with the music business. It had a lot more to do with knowing when someone had or hadn't tried to be considerate. There's this perceived 'entitlement' that artists cop to...like, "Hey man, you OWE me!" It's just a business. nothing more, and nothing less. And everyone bitches about it. I tell people who complain about it all the time to find one other vocation in this world (outside of being unnemployed) that doesn't require a resume, gives everyone who so much as raises their hand a shot at the brass ring (hell, even with the lottary you have to buy a ticket every day to increase your odds), allows you to go straight to the top without a lick of experience, requires no background check, no peeing in a jar, no memos, no racial descrimination, doesn't require you to attend safety seminars, and, (best of all) no bad coffee. I think I need to make this one of my top 10 lists on the new site...The Top 10 reasons the music business DOESN't suck. (Website still only works with IE 6.0 in case you're interested...being fixed).

I noted an interesting phenomenon when opening packages and I coined a term as a result, calling it quality inflation (or more fondly 'doesn't suck' inflation). After listening to what can only be described as 'the worst songs this world has ever known' (ie. some guy singing, the dog is barking, the phone is ringing, the wife is yelling 'dinner!' and he actually answers...during the recording of the demo...and there's absolutely no music...just some man singing)...for 2 solid hours, and having filled a giant sized trash bag in the process (not for the CDs, but for all that OTHER CRAP that people send in WITH their CDS) and hoping the next package has a razor blade in it (why not, they send in everything else) I'd hear one that actually 'didn't totally suck' and I'd get all excited....I'd think, 'Wow! Not bad at all! In fact, that just may be hit a for Tim McGraw!" I'm exaggerating, but I'd think, hey, that's not bad! Then I'd get up the next day and play it for the publisher. He'd get that "What the..." expression on his face and I'd be there scratching my head, racking my brain to try to remeber what it was about that song that I thought was good. Pretty funny. Also a bit embarrassing. But i got some great stuff...mostly from lyrics only people...the ideas were magnificent. But when I'd call I'd often get tha paranoia, or the, "Thanks, but no thanks on your suggestion to try and beat my analogy in the second verse. I like it the way it is" (an analogy suggesting that loving one's mother is much like eating chicken fingers while driving a car).

The other big thing I learned is in no other realm are so many participants so inept in accurately assessing their skill set than in the realm of songwriting. Everyone think's the're 'there' after they write their first song. I know I did...well, maybe my third song. 11 years ago I came to Nashville with my 9 best songs of all time (selected from literally hundreds of others) which I was quite certain would all be cut. I figured MY only problem was Tim or Garth? Tim or Garth? Tim or Garth? I used to think about stuff like this all the time...where I am, how I'm doing, how I stack up, hey, maybe I'll enter a contest and find out, etc., and I was completely cluless because I'll have you know I wouldn't even PLAY you a single one of those songs today (unless teaching about what NOT to do)...and they were the reason I came to Nashville. Hey, I actually MOVED TO A NEW CITY because of those songs! I was absolutely convinced they were all fabulous. Why is that? (By how much I've been writing here in this forum I think I've been keeping a lot of stuff in a little too long or something. Bill, shut up and go write a song!)

(ALso, for some reason, tonight the HTML stuff isn't working so this came out as one big giant paragraph).

You are kind to say what you said. Thanks much.

Bill Renfrew
www.writeTHISmusic.com

wa la...HTML WAS working...just not for 'Preview Post'.

Dear nIGHTSHIFT:

I'm refering to cuts AS music placement I think...but you must be talking about getting YOUR music used...not pitching demos of your songs for artists. Am I correct in my assumption? I haven't worked the shopping masters market and probably won't be unfortunately. That's a whole other ballgame I know nothing about. I'm dealing in the market of straight songwriting...One who writes songs with the hopes of getting a song cut by someone else. I do artist production on independents but as far as I go beyond that is maybe shopping a song off that cd. sorry dude. For everyone else too: I only have so much time to devote to this...I had to make some tough choices along the way, but I have to stick to them.

About posting a critique your work for the group, I'm a bit shy to do that, mainly because I think of 'how's the song on it's own'. There's a TON of music on the radio, particularly in R&B where the 'song' is a rather small compontent in the grand scheme...it's groove, mood, etc., and the beat of course, that all kick in those stalls. That's just not my thing...and quick to add, I'm not assuning your songs compare in that way...I'm just assuming your the artst from what you write here, again, am I correct?. , If so, I'll say this: if I'm not critiquing a song on it's merit as a song, the most I'll probably have to contribut is "I like it" or "I'm not wild about it." Does that make sense? I hope I'm not coming off as unreasonable. It's a market thing. If you sell the best blue shirts anywhere but I'm looking for a red shirt, I won't buy your shirt, but that takes nothing away from your shirts. t's really about time and how to use it to best focus on myh market. I'd rather do what I do best and not try to do everything pretty good...I'n short, I'm just not in the 'music placement' business. I'd love to listen to everything...I love music...but I can't do that 'cuz that's all I'd do! Tell us in the group here more about what you do though...I'm intrigued.

Dear Moker,

You said it...sign artists...that's not my market. Many folks do work websites, that's clearly obvious. I don't. That's all I'm asking that people respect. I'm not trying to win an argument here. I'm not even trying to debate the issue. I'm just saying what i do and don't do. And I'm comfortable with that. If you have other publishers that do all this and that's how YOU work best, then to me it sounds like you've already found what you're looking for, right?

Dear Everett,

I sympathize with the issues you face in mailing stuff over border...Not sure what to say as I haven't known in the past quite how to deal with this...when I was opening packages i was frustrated for writers from other countries...everything's so much more complicated. And expensive too. More on that a the end.

To clear up any misundersandings that may have come up, if I found an overseas writer (or ANY writer) who I want to work with, we'll take the path of least resistence any time we can. It's that first step that I request be handled by people who have approached me to do business that I kindly request be handled in a certain manner....it's my way of doing business and it works for me. It serves many purposes in doing so...it's not about me being antiqueated (I can assure you) but I won't try to convince anyone that I'm not because I have no benefit to gain by winning arguments or defending my methods. In fact, I have more to gain by not doing so).

I've already found people to work with here in this forum, and I'll be receiving some mp3s here shortly. I'll also be going to their websites for back catalog and ftping blocks of stuff over here to my place

I pitch mp3s whenever I get the greenlight (whicn is rare in my market...but I love it 'cuz it's so EEEEASY...but I'm telling you because I live here, none of the MAJOR PUBLISHERS OR RECORD COMPANIS ask for websites in my market...lots of independents do, lots of very successfull independents apparently, but not a single one of the majors. If they did, are you kidding me? That's what I'd do because that's what they'd say they WANT me to do. I'm trying to hit a home run here, and that's just how my market operates, so I won't apologize.

I'll soon be shopping my catalog to independent artists by posting my songs on my website...but not because that's how I
ve decoded that's how I want to do it. That's how THEY want it done...but they're artists and publishers are their market. I"m a publisher/writer. Therefore... (why say it again). Conversly I've chosen a set of tools that I personally find useful in a differnt market that don't have anything to do with websites. if BMG says calls and says Sara Evans is looking for one more for the record and they're tracking tomorrow, I'll jump through as many of their hoops, regardless of size, that they ask me to jump through to get my music in their hands...I have everything to gain by doing it their way. They have absolutely nothing to gain by jumping through a single hoop of mine. That's how the music 'business' works in Nashville...and pretty much business of all types everywhere else I think I'd say it's safe to say.

And Everett, I'm definitely not saying I think you're all about technololgy for the sake of it...you're trying to overcome obstacles of being in a foreign country, as is Night Shift. It may be (and I suspect it is) that your methods (website marketing) are aligned better with those of the players who deal in placing masters...artist tracks...productions, and from what I've learned here on this forum, that markdt may be very much web based. I'm doing one, very specific thing...trying to get a killer cut on a major label artist. Toward that end I'm trying to find killer lyricists to collborate with who, if not experienced, are teachable, so maybe they can help me write songs that we absolutely love. songs so awesome that a major will have to cut them cause the're so damn good....and that's it's own little world and isn't by any means the only world. I'd also like to help some folks along the way if I can.

I wonder if writing long forum posts makes your songwriting better.... I'm sorry...I never do this...I think I really was needing to get a lot of stuff off my chest. Just tell me to shut up and I promise I will.

Thanks. Goodnight.

br

bill:
You have some good, thorough answers and can almost make a believer out of the sinics.
Especially when you mention your own history.

I guess it may be more of a personal esteem issue than anything.
Music or whatever to make noise with to call music is all about feeling and emotion.
Not something so easily to put a conclusion on.

But I really appreciate your insights.

Matt

very rarely do I go to private music sites, but I do check out the various anybody who want to sites.
When SongRamp had the play all new feature I used to spend most of my listening time there.
Working in the shed, I had the speakers out there and it was way bettr than radio,
I have suggested to soundclick they think about doing a what's new playlist rather than the exploitable charts, or recomended songs list.
Or rather have it as well as the current ones.
I and I should imagine a lot of people want to hear what is new and decide what they think is good.
Not somebody else's opinion.
Graham

Hey Bill,

Just had a visit to your website. Looks like you are mainly into "artist development", with a focus on paid consults and recording facilities. I don't see a standard publishers page, nor is there a "feel free to browse our catalogue" link.

Are you really after co-writers, or clients ?

As a songwriter, I put up a couple of songs for critique, because both the numbers chosen are multi-layered. To any publisher, a standard format critique shouldn't be too difficult. "Salala" is sung in an African dialect, but that shouldn't make any difference to a seasoned music publisher. "Someones Got a Better Hand" is simply a straight foward story tellers' song. I guess I would simply like to see the depth of your knowledge.

I hope the whole "send in a CD thing" is just an alternative way of doing business, and not an attemptto attract business from the un-initiated.

I am direct, and I mean no offence. I just find your answers full of smoke and mirrors. To post a critique on the two songs mentioned, would tell us something about yourself, and demonstrate the depth and strength of your abilities.

cheers, niteshift

Nightshift,

Please don't speculate on my integrity since you are not qualified to do so. I've read your last 4 or 5 posts and you clearly base your opinions of others (me) on what you have experienced in the past...which apparently includes 'falling for it' a few too many times.

What really amazes me the most about your posts on me is that after telling God and everyone that you suspect that I'm a cheat, a con artist, and a liar, in your last sentence you still have the gull to ask me to spend my time listening to your songs!

No thanks.

br

A follow up to my comments above.
I recieved word from Soundclick that they like the ide of the play all feature on what is new, and are looking at implimenting it.
Good stuff in my book.
Graham

Bill,

With all due respect, no, I am not calling you anything disrespectfull, nor do I doubt your integrity. Just your business motives.

I've never "fallen for it" for it, as you suggest. As a producer and publisher with access to all I require, I am simply sceptical of the multi-faceted studio ( and believe me, I've been in a few, and the very best as well ) offering "services".

A telephone consult for $49 ? Hell, I do them for free when i'm after the publishing on a great song, and will also record and produce them, if it's of benefit to the artist or writer.

Guess I don't understand why a publisher and studio owner would want to find lyricist co-writers ?

If you don't want to provide a public critque on the songs mentioned, then put up a couple you have come across lately, and provide a detailed critque, so folks can see the calibre of your work before they may wish to use a service. I don't require, or need your services.

Anyways, as this thread is about the use of technology, I will still stand behind my origional assertion that the mailing of CD's is dead in the water. I've never mailed a CD to a publisher on a spec, and never will. Electronic submission has been used for quite some time now, it's easy, cost effective, allows screening of vast numbes of songs, and is time saving.

In running any business, if you can bring down the cost overheads, then it's a benefit to everyone. I'm a great believer in using the technology available, and unfortunatly those who don't, will end up not being able to be cost competitive in an exceptionally competitive market.

cheers, niteshift

To all:

The website is functioning much better now...with all different browsers. Yeah!

No manuscripts tonight (did I hear a collective 'whew!"?)

I'm really enjoying this group. I've already learned much...this is a fabulous resource. Thanks for the warm welcome.

Sincerely

br
[url=http://www.writethismusic.com]www.writethismusic.com[/url]