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Ande's Lyric Writing Tips
By Ande Rasmussen www.SongWriterBlog.com
edited 04/06/08


01) You don't need to be able to sing, read music, or even write music to write songs. You need to believe that you can write songs. If you want to write songs, start writing. Your first songs aren't likely to be very good, be patient stick with it you will improve.


02) No Rules
There are no rules, there are only tools, guidelines. You'll find exceptions to everything below, but it's generally good to use the tools, unless you have a really good reason not to. It's important to understand each guideline.


03) A song contains 3 things:
a. Lyrics: the words to the song
b. Vocal melody: the way you sing the words, the notes, stresses, and pauses and
c. Music: the notes, chords, and instrument sounds
that fit around and support the lyrics and melody


04) Study the songs you love.
Listen to them and write out the lyrics by hand (play the song over and over.)
Learn to perform the songs you love.
Write songs that are similar to the ones you love.
Read songwriting books, go to songwriting conferences, join songwriting organizations and participate, attend meetings, volunteer. Participate on online communities.


05) Song Idea Radar
Have your song idea radar on at all times, always be looking for and listening for great song ideas, when you find one, capture it, write it down or record it. Capture as many as you can. Then develop them further.


06) When a song idea arrives, let it flow, capture it, write down or record everything that arrives. Just get it out, don’t edit in that moment, you can always go back later and edit. If you are cowriting and your cowriter is flowing, sometimes the best thing you can do is stay out of the way. When you have a strong idea you will think of many lines to go with it, your task is to edit them down to the strongest most effective lines that fit and sound the best.


07) Songwriting Journal
Start a songwriting journal and write down your ideas. Keep pen and paper handy where you can't bring your journal. When you have enough of a song going transfer it to your computer


08) Cowrite:
Consider cowriting, you're likely to write better songs faster. Plus you’ll have another person who cares about the song and might share expenses. If you cowrite with an artist or producer you increase the chances of the song getting performed and recorded. Cowriting is kind of like dating, write with many people and you'll find a few favorites. Get the first one out of the way. Keep trying your best song might be the 5th, 9th, or 25th song you've cowritten. Learn how you cowrite best.


09) Keep a list of all the songs you've written,
the date you started,
who you wrote each one with,
the current status of the song.


10) Move People
Well written songs emotionally move listeners.
Well written lyrics emotionally move the readers.
Songs need to be universal this means many people can relate to the song’s story or situation.
We write songs for our listeners.


11) Music is about theme, variation on theme, departure from theme, then return to the theme.
Song sections contrast, lyricists do this by:
a.) only using title words in the chorus
b.) using different line lengths, rhyme sounds and rhyme patterns in different sections


12) The Building Blocks of Songs
Song Structures or Forms
Lyrics have building blocks and structures.
The building blocks are:
Title, Verse, chorus, bridge and prechorus.
The title is name of the song, it's what the song is all about, the most repeated phrase in the chorus.
Verse provides the story and details about the song and leads to the title.
The chorus is summarizes the song and hammers home the title.
Bridges are a section between the last 2 choruses usually just 2 lines adding more details or a twist.
The prechorus, sometimes called channel, lift or climb is a section in some songs between the first verse and the chorus, and the second verse and the 2nd chorus.
The simplest structure or form is:
Verse / Chorus / Verse / Chorus or V C V C
Many songs have a bridge their form is V C V C B C
Songs that contain a prechorus or climb, the section between the verse and chorus, that section is called a climb or a lift
Have this structure is V Cl Ch V Cl Ch
There's several more song forms like
Verse Verse Bridge Verse, and
Verse Verse Bridge Verse Bridge Verse.
The form you choose depends on which one best serves the song idea.


13) Genuine Idea
Is the idea worthy of becoming a song?
Does it strike a chord?
Is it universal, will millions want to hear it and sing it over and over?


14) Keep It Conversational
Write a lyric the way you would say it. Lyrics are conversational, don't reverse word order for the sake of rhyme, only use words you'd use in a natural normal conversation. KEEP IT SIMPLE.
Harlan Howard said, write songs so people who are half listening can half understand.


15) Titles
Every song has a title. Titles are the songs' brand. The title is the most repeated phrase in the chorus. It's the phrase that sticks in people's heads. Find a word or phrase that DEMANDS ATTENTION. The title usually summarizes the song.

if a chorus has 8 lines: here are 5 examples of where titles are often placed

1) x
2)
3)
4)
5) x
6)
7)
8)

1) x
2)
3) x
4)
5)
6)
7)
8) x

1) x
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8) x

1)
2)
3)
4) x
5)
6)
7)
8) x

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8) x

Some songs don't have a chorus they just have a repeated hook line.
Some choruses don’t have 8 lines


16) Prove the title.
The purpose of the verse is to lead the listener to the chorus, every line in the verse should be connected to and point to the title. Verses should build up to the chorus.


17) IMAGERY
Use imagery, don't tell me, show me with images, write with all of your senses, things you see, feel, hear, taste, and touch
Specifics are special.


18) Opening Lines
The opening line of the lyric should GRAB the listeners attention
Start with a bang. Drop the cat in the punch bowl! Splash
http://www.peoplestories.org/tips.asp
Establish who what when and where in the first few lines. Start in the middle of the action.


19) Avoid cliches, they are the kiss of death
Attempt to create expressions that people have never heard before but when they hear it they understand it. Sometimes a cliche is what you need to use to best convey the emotion.


20) Transition into the Chorus
The last line in each verse should seemlessly transition the listener into the chorus.


21) Be Concise
Each lyric line in a song needs to be concise.
Each syllable has to be sung. What’s the simplest clearest way to write each line? Cut the fat, leave the meat.


22) Some words don't sing well
don't use them.
Avoid adverbs, find the verb.
One and two syllable words are the backbone of lyrics


23) Matching
Verse 1 and 2 should have the same rhyme scheme
Syllable stresses should match, Syllable counts should be close, if not exact.
When you compare each line of verse 1 and 2, they should have close to the same number of syllables and you should be able to sing the same melody on each line ie when you compare V1 L1 with V2 L2


24) Avoid puns and being overly clever
A song should generate a real emotion in the listener rather than make the reader or listener say, "My my my you are so clever." It's fun to write funny songs but novelty songs can be tough to place.


25) Nothing New
There's nothing new under the sun, strive to have something new and special about your lyric


26) Bits and Pieces
Songs rarely arrive fully baked. They usually arrive in bits and pieces. It's up to you to put the lyric together. Writing lyrics can be like solving puzzles.


27) Great songs are Rewritten.
You can keep tweaking the song you're writing. At some point have the courage to say, this song is done, but remember just because you say it's done doesn't mean that it is. Great songs are CoRewritten


28) Make the singer Look good.
Lyrics need to make the singer look good, but not too good.


29) POV
Think about which POV would best expresses the song’s situation and emotion:
a. I / We / Me / Us
b. You
c. He She They


30) Write What You Know
Write with authority, don't contrive. Write about things you've experienced.


31) Rhyming
You don’t have to use perfect rhymes, like rock and block,
you can rhyme the vowel sound without worrying about the end consonants
imperfect rhymes sound similar to each other like swim and win,
imperfect rhymes give writers a larger word palette
Use online rhyme dictionaries like RhymeZone.


32) When you find a song idea you’re considering writing:
Google the title to see if it’s ever been written before, put quotation marks around the phrase
You can also do a title searches on ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC.
Just because there already is a song with the title you're thinking about writing doesn't mean you should stop. Go ahead and write the song.


33) Don’t steal song ideas from people you know and those who know you. The songwriting community is small, word will get out. Guard your reputation. Be prepared, pleasant, real and fun. Be the kind of person people want to write with again and again. Likeability and personality play an important role in your success at building your songwriting team.


34) Critiquing
You have to become your own toughest critic. Every line and note must shine. One of the best things to do is to write a lyric, then set it aside for a few days, weeks or months so you can approach it later from a fresh perspective. Build a team of excellent writers who will be tough critiquers of your work. Though we crave compliments, we need to write stronger songs. Consider getting professional critiques. It is not sensible to critique songs in one genre with the criteria of another.
IE critiquing a pop song using country lyric writing guidelines. It's all someone's opinion. Songwriters tend to be tougher on songs than fans and listeners.


35) Melody is King
A well written lyric can inspire a great melody, but a great melody is what makes a great song. There are many wonderful songs where you can barely make out the lyrics. Marc Alan Barnette wrote: "A weak lyric can be rescued by a strong melody, it never goes the other way around." Simplicity is critical. Make your choruses jump out, make them clear simple catchy and singable.


36) Songwriting can be a Pandora’s box, if you start you might not be able to stop.


37) That's all for now but I’ll probably write more later

I hope this helps you write better songs, Let me know if it does. So now I challenge you to write a lyric.

Ande Rasmussen

Good clear list all together in one place.

Excellent post...Songwriters bible....

thank you

just wanted y'all to know that I edited it today and added a few things here and there

Ande

Very good post Ande....

Hate to be the big bad wolf.. well not really But I've read / heard some of ande's songs and tip number 9 came Into play

9) Avoid cliches, they are the kiss of death
Attempt to create expressions that people have never heard before but when they hear it they understand it. Sometimes a cliche is what you need to use to best convey the emotion

I guess the old adage in this case though is, Do as I tell you and not as I do

if you read it, it also says

"Sometimes a cliche is what you need to use to best convey the emotion"

I think my bases are covered

also there's

1) No Rules
There are no rules, there are only tools. You'll find exceptions to everything below, but it's generally good to use them, unless you have a really good reason not to.

ande

Hi Herbie,

Thank you
hope your writing is going well.

Ande

Let me post your song "eventually"

This is not just one little tiny cliche as you have mentioned
It's a song based on lines we have heard since forever and I am only pointing this out because you deny it
I can post other songs too if you want?
Not being a narc or anything I'm just very critical over lyrics
And you think you're some kind of songwriting mentor and to be honest this is like taking singing lessons from a person who got rejected from american idol auditions

Eventually
Written by Mark Oates, Donna Aylor, and Ande Rasmussen

verse 1
I lie in bed and wonder how you are
Little things remind me how we are now apart
No more talking on the phone
Or late nights with you alone
And tho I dont know why you said goodbye

CHORUS:
EVENTUALLY
I'LL FORGET ABOUT YOU
EVENTUALLY
I'LL LOVE SOMEONE NEW
THO ALL I DO IS THINK ABOUT
THE WAY WE USED TO BE
I'LL GET ON WITH LIFE
EVENTUALLY

verse2
I'm waiting for your memory to fade
I'm still holding onto the promises you made
You said you felt for me
A love that would always be
And I wish I could feel that love tonight

REPEAT CHORUS

BRIDGE
Somewhere between these walls of time
Someone will love this heart of mine
Though it hurts to know it wont be you

REPEAT CHORUS

Just so you don't respond back before backing up your lyric
Let me show you what I mean and I'm wondering if everybody who critiqued It lied to you about it being good
Obviously you want to go commercial with It so there's no excuse

Little things remind me how we are now apart
No more talking on the phone
Or late nights with you alone
And tho I dont know why you said goodbye

- - Verse 1 - you're telling us and not showing
- - lines 1 2 3 4 5 and if you had a 6th are old and used

CHORUS:
EVENTUALLY
I'LL FORGET ABOUT YOU
EVENTUALLY
I'LL LOVE SOMEONE NEW
THO ALL I DO IS THINK ABOUT
THE WAY WE USED TO BE
I'LL GET ON WITH LIFE
EVENTUALLY

Chorus - - can the chorus get any more bland the hook is fine
- - But it lacks everything a hook should be

verse2
I'm waiting for your memory to fade
I'm still holding onto the promises you made
You said you felt for me
A love that would always be
And I wish I could feel that love tonight

- - Verse 2 - you're telling us and not showing
- - Lines 1 2 3 4 5 blah blah blah spare me
- - By the way lines 3 and 4.. who talks like that oh Shakesphere!


REPEAT CHORUS

- - See first chorus

BRIDGE
Somewhere between these walls of time
Someone will love this heart of mine
Though it hurts to know it wont be you

- - All you're saying In the bridge is the same non sense
- - That you said In the chorus (oops)


REPEAT CHORUS

- - Please don't repeat chorus

This is what the chorus would look like If I wrote it, but its probably not really good and I probably wouldnt keep it

EVENTUALLY
I'LL GET YOUR SMELL
OFF MY SMILEY FACE T SHIRT
THE PHONE WILL RING
AND IT'LL BE A NEW GIRL
I'M HEALING MYSELF
SPIRITUALLY AND EMOTIONALLY
I'LL GET BACK THE WAY I USED TO BE
EVENTUALLY

Ande,
you continue to inspire me, which I try to do myself everyday anyway...ha, there's another one for the list...find something that inspires you everyday...wanna hear some good bluegrass? go listen to a new demo I just posted on the mp3 board "The Apple Barn" the chops these guys have will either inspire or humble you or both...thanks for the post, things like this, it doesn't hurt to read them a thousand times, and no I couldn't stop writing if I tried...see ya...Moker

Dear airun,

Thank you for drawing attention to Eventually
people can hear the

piano vocal at:
http://www.songramp.com/mod/mps/viewtrack.php?trackid=12739

and the

pop demo at:
http://www.songramp.com/mod/mps/viewtrack.php?trackid=12740

I cowrote the song in 1999 - 2000, I started writing songs in 1998. In 2000 "Eventually" won grand prize in the ASG Bare Bones Song Contest. (around 150 songs were entered)

I think it's a great song, people tell me it's a great song, but it's good to know there are those who don't like it.

3 artists have cut it, many artists have asked to record it.
It moves people who are suseptable to it.
Ask someone who's recently been dumped to have a listen.

When you cowrite a song with 2 other people you don't always get your way on every line.

Marc Alan Barnette wrote:
"A weak lyric can be rescued by a strong melody,
it never goes the other way around."

I am a student just like everyone here. I know what I did to accomplish what I've done so far in songwriting and I'm happy to share what I know with others.

These guidelines are tools that I use. Some I wrote, some I paraphrased from many songwriting books I've read and workshops I attended.

I share much of my songwrting journey at
www.SongWriterBlog.com
click on messages and browse through the archive of previous messages,
I often share things at jpf before I put them in my ezine.

It may not be sensible to critique songs in one genre with the criteria of another.
IE critiquing a pop song using country lyric writing guidelines

I wish you the best with your writing
Thanks for sharing Eventually with the readers of this thread.

Ande

hey moker,

great to hear from you
thanks
right now I'm dropping by
http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=542635

Ande

Hi Ande,

Eventually is a winner! It's lyrics are simple, but in this instance they work simply beautiful! You followed the K.I.S.S. rule (written about in every songwriting book) and coupled that with a great melody! No wonder it's such a great song!!!

Best,
Lynn

This may seem like an out of place comparison...but I used to both show and judge dogs...in a lifetime long ago.

There were judges noted for being tail judges, top line judges,
teeth judges, eye judges, front end judges, rear end judges, movement judges ...and then...there were judges who were known to be all-rounders...who eventually were respected enough in the field .... to be judging shows like the Westminister Kennel Club each February.

Where am I leading with this? ......The all rounder type judges were able to step back.....away from the dogs...and from any single characteristic..(i.e. flaw)...to see the total dog.....
the total package....and take the dog in as a "whole"....
whereas the judges known for being "single-trait" judges..(and let's say their "thing" was movement)....were known
to put up a dog that had flawless down and back and side movement... yet would be the least appealing for its breed in over-all characteristics.

Sometimes, I think as songwriters, (and we are all guilty of this at times) we can't see a beautiful song for what it is....
......because we are not well rounded enough.

Eventually is a beautiful song.... Not every song is written
with the country format in mind.....

Congratulations to Donna, Mark and you, Ande for what you've done with "Eventually" and thanks for the fine tips and reminders.

Best wishes,
Kaley

Piano Melodies and Demos:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=8404
Kids Music:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=6469
Andy & Friends CD:
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg

Thank you Lynn and Kaley,

I appreciate your posts

Ande

It's good and all for you that the song is getting good attention
That should not be your argument though

I wish everybody would look at this as just a lyric
Just forget all of the music and good singing
Maybe look away from all of the good reviews you've been getting

Send It out for a review to a song critique from a professional
Or a music website and see what they say about the lyric

Like I previously mentioned there is nothing NEW in this lyric
You even use some weird wording to try and fit in a rhyme
Does anyone talk like that anymore, are they the average person?

You said you felt for me
A love that would always be

A bridge that doesn't move the story / says what the chorus does

And all the verses lack any real originality

It's mediocrity at best and people still really like It
Honestly I'd be embarrassed to have my name beside that song
But you must be doing something right

Post deleted by airun

Ande:

Thanks for sharing this list of tips. It's a great reference for writing and revising lyrics.

I think Eventually is a great song. I first heard it when I started lurking around here last spring, and I still catch myself humming the chorus from time to time. Great songs touch people and stick with them. Eventually follows some of the most important tips listed above: 2 (Genuine Idea), 18 (Move People)and 34 (Melody is King.)These seem to me to be some of the most important - and difficult - things to get right.

Mark

Ande,
Thanks so much for the guidelines. I can almost be certain to break (or at least severely bend) some of the rules, in each of my songwriting endeavors, but this will surely help to keep me honest.

I just gave my first listen to your song,"Eventually", and I found it to be very enjoyable. It's clean and simple, it conveys both pain and resolve. It gives a nice timeline from the past to the future, and best of all. It sounds GOOD.

I don't know that there is a "perfect song". All we can ever do is write from our heart and hope it touches the hearts of others. If we are successful in doing that, it doesn't matter which rules we had to break to get there. -- Oh -- wait a minute-- that's what you said at the very beginning of this thread, wasn't it?

I appreciate your generosity in sharing your wisdom.

Hi Mark,

you're welcome
glad you like eventually
hope your writing is going well

Keep after it

Ande

hi Peter J,

you're welcome
they are just tools for songwriters to use or not
thanks for listening to and commenting on eventually

ande

I love your song "Eventually". It is one of my favorites. I am a firm believer that in many cases simple is best. I think one needs to take each song on a song by songs bases. Not every song has to be complex and so overly detailed. That is the problem I have been dealing with on another thread with a co writer I am working with.

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards1

I took it on a song by song basis and I looked at the whole package (all of a sudden lyrics aren't included?)

Not every lyric has to be complex but the bridge saysthe same obvious thing the chorus says and the whole song is full of cliches

Go on the lyric forums and you'll see people repeating what I am saying on other songs

So why does this song not apply?
Because It has killer music? Thats weak in my opinion

thank you tammy
great to hear from you

sorry you're having a problem with your cowriter
hope things work out

ande

I have learned something important about a creative work: complex is easy, but simple is difficult. "Eventually" has a simplicity that I admire. So does "Yesterday" or "Imagine" or "Hello, It's Me" ...simple songs, but can you write their match? Try it tonight! Not so easy.

Airun makes good points, but I would have to say that his suggested lyrics, although more imaginative, were also less universal, and a tad mean-spirited...I think they were pretty quickly and easily whipped onto paper. But they don't really work except for shock value, and the deeper meaning behind them? Well, it's someone ragging on someone else, saying 'Screw You' in a clever new way.

"Eventually" may not be breaking new lyrical ground, but it's a good listen with lyrics that match the mood and say what they mean. All alone on paper they may not stir, but they do their job to support the atmosphere, meaning and structure of the song. So they work, I think. If lyrics were the sole most important part of a song...than they would just be poems set to background music. But lyrics are just part of the whole musical piece, and Ande's lyrics do the job.

The song's the thing.

There are and have been countless songs like this on mainstream radio.
Isn't that the idea? Beautifully done Ande.

This song works, it takes less than 30 seconds to realize that

I know some people like the whole package but a weak lyric to me (And yes I do hear words not just music) Isn't a full package
Seems to be me but I can't back a lyric that says:

I'm waiting for your memory to fade
I'm still holding onto the promises you made
You said you felt for me
A love that would always be

All he forgot to leave out was "I'd die for you"

Substudio there is a difference between a clever song you hear on the radio and a song with recycled lines and words, that both say the same thing, I wonder what this falls under

I've wasted enough time on this which I can't believe I have
Peace

thanks lyle
great to hear from you

ande

thanks sub

ande

first I've edited the tips a little swapped around the order of a few and added a few words to a few

Ande

one thing I've noticed is some of the most loved and universal songs in our culture
hardly have any words like

Yesterday,
All my troubles seemed so far away,
Now it looks as though they're here to stay,
Oh, I believe in yesterday.

Suddenly,
I'm not half the man I used to be,
There's a shadow hanging over me,
Oh, yesterday came suddenly.

Why she
Had to go I don't know, she wouldn't say.
I said,
Something wrong, now I long for yesterday.

Yesterday,
Love was such an easy game to play,
Now I need a place to hide away,
Oh, I believe in yesterday.

Why she Had to go I don't know, she wouldn't say.
I said, Something wrong, now I long for yesterday.

Yesterday,
Love was such an easy game to play,
Now I need a place to hide away,
Oh, I believe in yesterday.

Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-mm.

Look at the structure of "Yesterday." A musical movement is given in the first stanza. The lyric opens with THE hook, the title. The first line is a simple melody, rising in an explanatory vocal fashion. If it were spoken in a conversation with a friend it wouldn't sound like it was being sung, simply stated in explanation. It's the way people talk. If you listen to conversation you can hear notes rise and fall in pitch, clip short or sustain longer for effect.
The next line descends the same way, in a conversational, explanatory manner, lyrically and melodically. The last line of the stanza finalizes the musical movement, completing the explanation and the movement, hitting the hook again.

Then the lyric repeats that musical movement, note for note, exchanging "Yesterday" for "Suddenly," and the other lines further explain the singer's story.

Now, if it was to repeat that musical movement a third time, even with new lyric advancing the story, it would risk monotony. It doesn't. It rises into the chorus, more intensive emotionally, both lyrically (meaning) and melodically, and each line piecing together this new musical movement, refreshing to the ear, and weaving back to end with the hook. That's four hits on the hook. It hits it five more times before the end, driving home that title 9 times.

Having had this refreshment of the variant melody of the chorus the listener is now ready to hear the first musical movement repeat a third time, in fact, wants to hear it again, having 'learned' it in the giving of the first and second verses.

The song is deceptively simple. Each line is a piece of the complex of the musical movement comprising the verses, and the chorus, not just the lyrical story. Singing it as notes without words reveals these pieces, separated by rests (commas, periods).

Not every song is as 'simple' as "Yesterday," getting the job done with fewer words (125 words and 7 hummed notes), but even wordier works can be analyzed by their component parts. Does each line do a job, supply a demanded function? The words lyrically advance the story. None should be extra, without purpose. The notes musically construct the melody, purposefully. A lyric can be 'tweaked,' cutting unnecessary words, changing words or lines to best do a job you want done. Enunciation can be altered from common spoken technique to 'sung' technique, to better communicate to the listener. A melody can be tweaked with notes changed to rise or fall in pitch, to clip durations short or sustain them longer, to achieve desired effects of emotion or demanded effects of communication of word meaning, or prosody, the 'marrying' of the lyric to the melody and beat.

What a wonderful art form. Moldable like clay.

That's why I say Complex is easy, Simple is difficult.

Yesterday, like most of the Beatles' songs, is a song that began with the music, and then the lyrics were fashioned to fit the song. That is invariably how I write also. When you create lyrics this way, they MUST fit into the melody, so it's an exercise in matching syllables and meaning, and somehow creating full lines that make sense. The old story goes that Paul woke up with this gorgeous melody in his head and sat down to the piano and worked on it, singing "Scrambled Eggs" instead of Yesterday, and it was even the working title for awhile. He spent a lot of time playing it for other people asking if they'd heard it before, because he couldn't believe he wasn't just remembering an existing melody from some other song. But the simple lyrics he came up with support the yearning beauty of the melody and resulted in one of the best, most covered songs of all time. But put those lyrics in a book of poetry, and that poem just plain sucks.

My belabored point is that there are certain themes that we all relate to, and we say them in different ways, but the same themes truly resonate with us. Unrequited love, lost love, broken hearts, inability to understand our actions...blah blah. We can't always be breaking into new and unexplored lyrical vistas. That in itself can result in overly "clever" songs.

Hi

Believe me I understand exactly what your saying and what you mean.
And you are not wrong by any means.

This subject a great one by the way has been gone over over so many times here and by every one who has written a song, submitted a song, been rejected, etc..etc..

There is difference between a clever song you here on the radio Not really?
In some cases yes but in many no.

Oh like "Always and Forever" by Shania Twain Or "Rock Your Body" by Justin Timberlake Older songs but those just flew into my head as really bad lyrically and creatively. Or anything by Fergi or the countless girly girl pop songs I see on TV and hear everyday. There are boat loads of weak songs on the radio.
I hear so many uninspired and unispiring songs it's incredible. You know how many hack lyrical lines Keith Urban writes?

And yes there are so very well crafted, creative and great songs out there lyrically and musically as well that are comercially successful and good.
"Unwritten" by Natashia Bedingfield is one such song

But here is the thing You have to know the game


The game they play is - Melody, Beat, Sound, Style, Voice, Look
All have more important role in a contemporary song today then do lyrics.

Trust me and i have many clever lines and lyrics mixed into my pop/pop rock songs.
I don't like what i'm saying but I'm telling it like it is, and i still won't let hack lines into my songs at all.. maybe just a tiny bit

The lyrics to "Since You been Gone" from Kelly Clarkson are so bad it's not even funny. I submiited a catchy song with lyrics that blows that off the planet completely to the same guy who signed and co-producers her. And got turned down flat. I wish he would have said hey you suck and are clueless.
But instead used lines like "nothing new and fresh" about my tune.

"Since You Been Gone" is new and fresh?????????

Get the point? Rockin Out and hearing Kelly belt it out (on tape) is the fresh he was thinking of. He never even read those lyrics.

As well as Ande's thread I'll write another about this subject that will really sting

Boy that Lyle really knows how to say what so many of us are thinking but can't put in words so eleoquently or should I say "simply".

Sometimes we tend to overanalyze things. When we post just a lyric over on a lyric board we tend to scrutinize the lyric alittle more so because it is naked of a melody. We are staring at it's words minus it's melody dressing, and that can be a blessing and a hindrance. Sometimes I may overanalyze a lyric when it is minus the melody because all I have in front of me are the lyrics so I dig deeper. If I am presented with both lyric and melody at once, sometimes what may have been a lyrical weakness in print suddenly doesn't seem to matter when I'm hearing the song wrapped in a memorable melody. When we post our lyrics alone we should expect a harder look because we have no melody to cloud our judgment per se, we are simply reading lyrics. But if we are reading the lyrics for the first time and and listening along to it's accompanying melody right off the bat, the lyrics being great or being "not so perfect" might not matter as much to the listener. "Eventually" may not be "clever", and may not contain ground breaking lyrics, BUT "Eventually" in it's totality is a great song. And that's the way it goes.......

Thanks for the kind words, Lynn! I just joined, but I'm currently experiencing just what you describe on the lyric board with my song "It's A Lie".

The chorus:

It's a lie
It's a lie
That I told myself a long, long time ago

is the one part of the song that really hooks the listener because of how it works with the music and colors the meaning of each preceding verse. But on paper, it is bland as can be...no imagery, not...enough. To me, it's a little epiphany that ties everything together...to a reader, it's an anticlimax.

All day I've been thinking about bland lyrics by the likes of Goffin-King, Lennon-McCartney, Cole Porter, Jagger-Richards, Townes van Zandt...and KISS.

"I wanna rock and roll all night and party every day."

Style, Style, Style, Stlye..... Goes hand in hand with what kind of lyrical message you might expect to hear.

When you hear a song think about the audience it will target for a minute.

Once you do that all debates are over, if a 10 year old girl goes crazy over a song
with bad lyrics... who cares? She is happy! The writer was successful..

Once you get into thinking professionally your whole way of thinking has to be adaptable and change.

I said it a 1000 times and I'll say it again.

"You can always write what ever you want, who's to stop you."

"Try to write something that everybody wants, much much harder"

Eh Mike ive heard fergies cd and most of her songs are more original than "eventually"
I know music has something to do with how well a song is received but why would you want to put crappy lyrics to nice music
Why not write great lyrics to great music
and you can't compare songs that were written 40 years ago to now
it wasnt a cliche lyric back then and its been used a million times by now

Hi

I have to agree with what your saying 100% I take forever with most of my songs so they can have all the good elements covered.

I'm not saying I think the song has the greatest lyrics. all I'm saying is the whole package of the songs fits today's market. And If i heard Justin Timberlake doing this song it would not surprise me at all one bit.

What songs are from 40 years ago.? The ones I mentioned are all in this decade.

I could easily point out and list HIT songs with weak lyrics all day and night long.

Style Over substance in many cases......

Producers - Pro-Tools- Pitch Correction the 3 P's make up 80% of the charts today.

Oh and heres a top 10 song from last year one of the ones I mentioned.
Since You been Gone at first I thought Kelly wrote it and thought okay she is a kid and wrote this okay yeah for her

Then I find out two grown men wrote it. These lyrics are hard core nonsense reminds me of Ackey Breakey Heart which must have been written with crayons.

If I had written this below I would have torn up the paper when i was working on it...It becomes a big hit.. so what? Well if a songwriters goal is to get a cut and a hit it's a big so what...
It's a lot of things happening when a song becomes a hit, many time lyrics are not the number one priority. This is the history of Pop music I know my history well

Since You Been Gone
Here's the thing
We started out friends
It was cool, but it was all pretend
Yeah, yeah, since you been gone
You're dedicated, you took the time
Wasn't long 'til I called you mine
Yeah, yeah, since you been gone
And all you'd ever hear me say
Is how I picture me with you
That's all you'd ever hear me say

You had your chance, you blew it
Out of sight, out of mind
Shut your mouth, I just can't take it
Again and again and again and again

Since you been gone (since you been gone)
I can breathe for the first time
I'm so movin' on, yeah yeah
Thanks to you (thanks to you)
Now I get, I get what I want
I can breathe for the first time
I'm so movin' on, yeah yeah
Thanks to you (thanks to you)
Now I get (I get)
You should know (you should know) that I get
I get what I want

Since you been gone
Since you been gone
Since you been gone

Looks and sound sells lots of records, in the pop world. I always give credit where credit is due, I like lots of things many musicians don't as well as songwriters don't.
And I always loved pop music big time. Pop music was overall alot better years ago

Agreed with since you been gone but its also catchy and fun to sing and isnt a downer of a song
now by songs that were 40 years old i just seen people list a bunch of them i didnt mean to direct it towards you
My theory is since one of the writers from eventually frequents the board (ande) people from here seem to be Into it
They could argue that but I just think it makes them feel closer to the song just knowing their friend wrote it
Only my inane opinion anyway and I'm sure people will come and deny
If a professional writer wrote that and it was a hit would they feel the same way about it?

I'll be a little more frank and clarify my stance, and keep in mind I am new here and don't know anyone. I do not like the song Eventually. It's not my cup of anything. But I do think it is a well-crafted song that perfectly appeals to its market, and I do think the lyrics are appropriate to the feelings being expressed. So I have respect for the writer, and I wouldn't see any point in telling him it sucks, insisting it sucks, and asserting that there is only one way to look at it. The song did what it was meant to do, and a lot of people truly enjoy it...although I do in all honesty think that kind of music, well, sucks.

But why spend a lot of energy ragging on it? It is clearly successful in its intent.

And now I'm going to put on something by The Band...

Hi

Yes Since You Been Gone is catchy and fun. But being a downer of a song or a ballad or mid tempo love song etc... has nothing to do with it.

The issue was not "Eventually's" melody or music, tempo or feel. It was about the lyrics that concerned you.

So take the music completely away from "Since You Been Gone" and you are left with lyrics that a grade schooler could have wrote in class in a half hour while not paying attention to the teacher

Pop songs are meant to target everyone, but mostly to target the young.

I totally understand and agree with what you mean about knowing the writer and liking the song more because it's a friend and someone you know.

That's why I wrote If - I could easily hear this on the radio today. This could be done by Justin Timberlake or someone like him or a young female artist as well.

Tell me if one of these boy bands did this song or Jesse McCartney it wouldn't fly...It would be PERFECT.....

If your a non artist songwriter you have very few options to who you can pitch songs too. You have Country & Pop and the both has to be singers not bands..
Then singers who don't write all there own songs as well. Many times it's the teenage artist or artist gearde towards younger audineces this is Popular Music

]So even if it was not done by Ande and I heard it on the radio done by whoever I would not be surprised one bit. Does it mean i would run out and buy it? No.

The writers here had a goal a target and a game plan. They succeeded up to this point now they need to get the cut. And they are hoping someone like Jesse sings it and sets off thousands of little girls crying. they need all of this to happen to earn a living They are trying to do the nearly impossible I give them alot of credit in this regard and wish them the best of [b]luck.
[/b]

It's just the way it is Good discussion Air I appreciate it and respect you for being open and honest.

It is a good discussion and it's getting the song more attention
Agreed about since you've been gone, its all about the music and performance same with eventually
Some people make their living off writing cliche songs like diane warren and I'm sure there's others so he has hope
What just gets me is ande thinks hes in a position to give people advice (likely he got from other websites etc but still) advice when all I see him writing are cliche lyrics...
Now I am sure he has the best intentions but I would want someone who has a creative style giving me tips
Thats like a singing teacher teaching their students to sing through their nose and from what I can see on american idol there are plenty out there
Am I the only one bothered by this?

Hi Airun,

Nice to meet you. If I am not mistaken, Ande has several cuts and has co-written with quite a number of individuals. The debate of whether to write w/cliches or not will probably be still going on 20 years from now. Meanwhile during that time there will be hit songs written and yes, some may even contain cliches and the world will not end. I have never heard Ande call himself an expert or even intimate that he is. I don't know why you are "bothered" with someone who is taking his time and sharing with the JPF community songwriting tips. On this particular thread they are his own, (and there is nothing wrong with any of those tips) but he has also on other threads shared excerpts and articles written by other people in the industry relating to songwriting as well.

I am not "bothered" at all by someone being kind enough to take their time and share with us, rather I am appreciative. If you are "bothered" with what he offers, you can simply skip his threads and then I would suggest going to the bookstore and purchasing any number of songwriting books, perhaps you will find what you are looking for.

Not bothered, just thankful,
Lynn

Hi Lynn I know he has had several indie cuts and a song that went to 56 on billboard but you don't seem to get my point
Maybe if he followed his "tips" that he preaches I'd be fine with it and writing songs trying to avoid cliches was one of them and there are others he's turned a blind eye to in this and other songs

Why post these tips and preach them when you don't follow them yourself ande?

P.S. the whole " Sometimes a cliche is what you need to use to best convey the emotion" doesn't count if the whole lyric is cliche, it only means if you need to use a cliche here and there

You might think I'm a jerk but I'm not I am just big on integrity

You may be big on integrity, or at least on being an enforcer of integrity, but it is more apparent that you're relentlessly trying to pin someone to the wall, to "confess" that you are right and they are wrong. And you do it in a very caustic and insulting way. It's a real drag to read...whereas Ande's tips were excellent. At least those tips and the song were both creative contributions...all this fingerpointing is merely destructive. You've made your point: you think Ande is a hypocrite. Harsh enough. Saying it over and over is just flaming someone...the internet equivalent of road rage. Even if you are correct in everything you've said, than the best you've got on Ande is to have pointed out a weakness...and if that's all this is about then maybe you should consider an apology for hijacking a very helpful thread. You're probably a very well-meaning person, but within this thread...well, you're kind of a bully.

Oh, man, and now I'm doing the same. This place is not for me. Over and out.

Hi Lyle I don't owe an apology to anybody
I'm just telling it like it is even though his tips are right
It might make them more believable if he "followed" them himself
It's like do as I say and not as I do

airun,
I believe you have made your point. Have you posted anything? I have looked on the mp3 board and the lyric boards. Can't find anything by you?????