JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Covers and Originals

In the thread about a small PA system, a side discussion took place about the merits of playing cover tunes. Different musicians play covers for different reasons. Some people play them because it's where the paying gigs locally are at. Some people refuse to play covers at all. In my case, I play them because I don't have enough material to fill an evening.

If you're a songwriter who also plays covers live, how do you choose your covers? How do you feel about playing covers? What percentage of covers vs. originals do you do?

Some nights I play all originals. Some nights I play a lot of covers. It depends on what I feel like playing and what the audience feels like listening to.

Sometimes when you play in a bar, nobody listens until they hear one they recognize. Then after you get their attention by playing something they know, they'll keep paying attention and listen to your songs.

Nothing helps tips better than playing a request.

Great question.

It's all about your relationship with your audience and how well you and they are getting along. If they seem to like blues...you play more blues. If they want to dance....you play dance songs. Ideally, you make them your friends before you show them your "family photos' in the form of original songs. If they are getting into the "photos," you can show them more. But, to just walk in and break out the "family album" can be a turn-off.

Ahh Richard, you've come to the right man. I've made a living for 20 years playing bars 6 nights a week {sometimes more.}
I have 5 CD's released and I'm stockpiling tunes for another in the near future, so I have about 60 originals. I also have a repitoire of about 400 cover tunes. {mostly classic rock and country, and a few comedy tunes} My hometown of Cincinnati, in spite of having MANY great musicians and LOTS of clubs that feature live music, unfortunately is a blue collar town that doesn't necessarily support original music. Most folks after working all week want to go out and hear tunes they're familiar with. Nor is it the kind of place where record company people are likely to be lurking. The key for me has been to win them over with the cover tunes, then work in the originals. If the originals are up to snuff you WILL find people who appreciate them.
One trick I use is to put a booklet out on all the tables before the show. Page 1 contains my schedule, website, myspace and Cdbaby sites. Pages 2&3 contain my songlist, and I encourage people to make requests all night {no setlist!} Page 4 contains press clippings, and page 5 my list of merchandise. I have a table where I sell CD'S and I have a mailing list for people to sign.
I have no problem with playing covers, since I still enjoy most of them as a fan, and the best way to learn your craft as a songwriter is to learn from the successful ones that have come before you. Learning a wide array of cover tunes will help you with learning the songwriting craft.
I've met more than a few musicians who are originals "snobs" who look down their noses at those of us who play covers, and resent us for actually working and making money! Guess what? most of then SHOULD be resentful, cuz most of them suck, and have never been out of their basement!
It's no coincidence that in my town, the best original bands are also the best cover bands.
Here's a few cover tunes that I've found to be fool-proof {they go over EVERY time with ANY crowd..."American Pie" {Though I'm TOTALLY sick of that one} "Brown Eyed Girl" {ditto}
"Drift Away"--Doby Gray, "Signs"--5 Man Electrical Band, "You Never Call Me By My Name"--David Allan Coe, "Family Tradition"--Hank Jr,, "Folsom Prison Blues, and "Ring of Fire"--Johnny Cash
"The Joker"--Steve Miller, "Piano Man"--Billy Joel to name a few.
Hope that helps! Good luck!

I'll have to agree with Bob, the best songs in the world are cover tunes and if you want to write a great song, there is nothing more educational than putting a great song on your lips and fingers. The problem with original songs will always be that no one has heard of them. If you get a following, then your fans will gradually adopt your original songs as long as they are as good as the ones you cover. You have to be really really good to carry a night with all original material.

Bob! You hit on some great points bass2x told me too, about playing covers. You're not going to believe this, but OK,,,you will: I JUST joined a cover band. Me,,,the one who since 1978 became a writer of songs who after being in cover bands since 68, (mainly one, of which three of the guys are in this current cover band), thought that was below me. How wrong I was. I can now do both! Play originals n one band, and play soul/rock music of the 60's and 70's, of which are driving, cool and fun songs. The best part though, is who I play with, in both bands! Get this: I not only play with three friends in 2LT, but those other 3 friends PLUS 4 others now! I also knew and will get to know better the other guys in the cover band! So, count them: That's TEN PEOPLE to PLAY MUSIC with! And a bass player is coming over Tomorrow, (Friday night), to see if he wants to play with the original band, (2LT). Eleven if so! Where could I play with eleven friends, with some from bands of over 30 years ago, had I continued to think cover songs were not to be played by me in a band? The songs are rockin and fun, so why not, right? I just have to show up and play some stuff to fill in.

There's already a long time organization with them going on. A manager/singer, a music director, (the drummer), and a vocal director. NO pressure and thinking, other than playing the songs I mostly know from hearing them years before, and maybe a time adjustment here and there when things get scheduled close together of the two bands.

A musician should be one as often as possible. And play MUSIC. I found that out at my first practice with the cover band. If I could play 5 nights a week in three bands, I would at this point.

Another factor as to why, besides the "friends benefits", is that I was given more playing time with getting my hand fixed, that I was told couldn't be fixed without severe risks and long term rehabs with much pain and no playing for months. I played the next day after a rare procedure I somehow found, (when my doctor and other specialists didn't even know about the new procedure.
So to play is a true gift. I was going downhill fast right at the time 2LT first played out. I faked my through with my right hand by playing with three fingers in a more percussive way, (no octaves, no real playing as I knew before). Now that I can play more normally, BUT with the procedure needing to be done again in the near future, (from the condition coming back as predicted, (no cure, but a good easy fix for a while), I SHOULD PLAY MUSIC as much as I can and are asked to, especially when asked by friends, period!

So, play that funky music white boy, me!

It's all good. If one hates all the songs in a band, that would be a factor not to, but if people love to hear certain music and it makes their night, and if most can be played with emotion, it's almost like a duty to do it. Musicians entertain. Dare I say The Beatles were once a cover band! Their first album had a third of them! (approx). They rock them up, or at least played the best they could at the time for any style of the songs.

Friends and music! If covers are what it takes to also be with those other guys, great! I just hope I passed the audition!
Reminded me of the time I tried out for a successful cover band when I was 15. Cool feeling, and not too old or jaded as I thought to have it be so. There's a mixed feeling still, to be honest, but I am realizing quickly the fun of just being with friends and playing music is a great thing,,,no matter the writers of the songs.

John

I think you have been given some outstanding advice here, Richard. The only think I would add is that I think it can be pretty impressive if you take some covers and "make them your own" - meaning - do something different - change the genre, tempo, arrangement, etc. Covers really grab my attention when the performer is a bit creative with the presentation.

Emily

Hey Richard,

Depends where your focus is. If you are a commercial musician, i.e. you make your living from music, then you will, by definition, play covers. Unless of course you are way up the ladder and writing/recording/touring.

It's really all about the audience. They are not there to see you. They are there to be entertained. It is unlikely you can entertain the audience with songs they are not familiar with. If they're your songs, or songs of others, it doesn't matter.

Just focus on the audience, and what they expect, and hey presto, you have your answer.

cheers, niteshift

I have always felt it absolutely necessary for an original band to play a few cover tunes. The audience needs a gage so they can measure just how good you are. In addition, you need to pull your audience in by giving them the opportunity to sing along with songs they already know. Playing all originals and you run the risk of losing your audience. Playing covers, with your style really shows who/what you are all about. JMO

And John thanks for giving me off Friday to also play in a cover band! The first song on tomorrows set list is “Locomotion”. Even Mark does cover songs!

Since I started doing open mic's about six months ago I've had to learn a lot of new cover tunes.
I run the open mic when Steve is out of town so I need enough material to fill a night if not enough folks show up to play.
The audience is always small so it is hard to know what they want to hear.
My knowledge of what solo performers play for their paying gigs is about zero except that I do know that originals are not widely accepted here and they do have to play cover tunes.
I need to get out and hear a few.

For those not knowing who "Mark" is, here is his interview, from being in one of the most successful bands in Rock history.
http://www.classicbands.com/MarkFarnerInterview.html

So, if a former Grand Funk Railroad writer and performer can do covers,,,that should say something about doing other people's babies, (songs). It's like babysitting. The kids aren't yours, but you still should take care of them as best as you can, and treat then with respect,,,,much like your own babies.

You're welcome Iggy,,,,as really, you know you can do what you want without my permission. I am happy for you, to be able to play with such a rock icon, and also with your other friends, (the cover band "Club Phred"! Have a blast! Record it if y ou can. Ask Mark Farner is he needs a piano player to jam with! Ha! Let's all go and join HIS band!

I saw Mark Farner play in the Todd Rungren Beatles show a few years back. Jack Bruce, Alan Parsons, Christopher Cross...They did one or two of their hits mixed in with Beatles. It was really fun...Mark did "closer to my home"

Hi I'm new to the board here, but this thread in particular caught my eye, and I think you guys have all nailed quite a few points, especially John Daubert, so I thought I'd add a few more that were overlooked in playing covers vs. originals and the opportunities in each.

I think all musicians start off with a repertoire of cover tunes, it's the way you learn to play and eventually develop you own style and technique as well as the fact that it's what got you interested in performing in the first place. But once you cross that line into becoming an original act, things become much harder as there is a vicious cycle that most people don't even think about. It's like a catch 22 - damned if you do, damned if you dont.

Here in lies the problem. As an original act you start off performing and getting paid maybe 50 or a couple hundred bucks a show if you're lucky. Once you develop a large loyal fanbase and begin to fill the venues you become more valuable to them. At this point you can demand between $1000-4000 a show on the top end.

However, you are still splitting this between 4,5,6 members of an act. In order to make a living you have to perform more and sell merchandise. If you remain a local act, this is what will kill you.

The more you perform as an original act the less your fans will have a tendency to come see you on any given night, because they just saw you the week before, or they can see you the week after. Once your attendence starts to fall off, your value to the venues also begins to decline and we all know what happens at this stage. When attendence declines, the less pay you're going to draw from the local venues.

I've seen this happen to so many really great Original acts and then as musicians, we start playing the blame game about things that don't really even matter because we're just as tough on another musician as we are on ourselves and then rocky roads are ahead within the band itself.

I've also seen a myriad of ways to get around this and still earn a living, however, the best technique I've seen to this date was mentioned by John. John plays in an original band, AND a cover band. A cover band allows you to perform night after night and make a pretty good living. This allows you to space out the performances of your Original act, while still developing your style and technique, along with the naturalness of your stage presence and it won't deplete the demand your fans have to see your Original act. If anything - it increases it!

As an local original act, once you grow a loyal fan base, I think the best course of action to take is to play once a month, maybe even once every other month, and bring something new to the table at each performance (new intro, new exit, new song, rent smoke, rent lasers, hire backups singers, dancers, allow fans to come up and sing backups, etc., etc.).

This involves a bit of planning and sometimes a little money, but make no mistake you're original act is a business and you should be thinking like a business person in your promotions, and show productions. Forget this aspect and you become just like 100 other acts out there, nothing special, nothing unique, just another dime in the dozen. Fans want music, but they also want a bang for their buck - this is the showmanship and entertainment value you provide for your fans.

Do this and you'll notice the demand for you original act continue to rise from your fans (and your merchandise sales) as they begin starving to see your next performance by the time the next show arrives and you're more likely to even pack the house to capacity because they can't wait to see what you're going to bring to the stage this time and as a result you'll also be able to draw a higher payout from the venues.

Make your investments work for you. Don't spend it all on ads and flyers, 90% of them never reach your fan base or just go in the trash by the time your show arrives. Let word of mouth do the work for you.

Performing in a cover band also allows you the opportunity to remain in touch with your fan base because even though your original act is not performing, -you- are still out there performing, and in this way you are able to develop a relationship with them, and keep them informed of whats going on with the original act.

The biggest mistake I see musicians making today is ignoring to develop and nurture that all important relationship with their fans both on and off the stage. Wander around in between sets of your cover act, you'll probably even start recognizing a lot of faces that are coming or will be coming to your original act.

And most importantly - LISTEN TO THEM, ask them questions about THEMSELVES (not how they like the show or your performance) and be genuinely interested in what they have to say. Don't think that they won't recognize your disinterest, because they'll see right through you. Let them see that you are a person just like them, with the same kinds of problems and worries, instead of some arrogant, egotistical musician who walks around with his head in the clouds and hasn't got two minutes for a fan that actually paid their hard earned money to come see you.

Give them the email address to your original act's mailing list before you get back on stage to lengthen, and strengthen the contact with that fan. Give them a url to your MySpace page and BLOG weekly. It doesn't matter what you write, as long as you write your fans will read, and that keeps them coming back to your website for new developments, and gets them to listen to your music keeping you on their minds.

Blogging also allows them the opportuntiy to have a conversation with you, because it allows them to comment on your posts, and makes them feel like they are actually able to speak with you, even though they're not right in front of you. And did you know that the fresh content your blog provides your website with also boosts your rankings in the search engines?

As an original act in a local venue, word of mouth about you as an artist is the most valuable PR you'll ever get. Turn off just one fan, and they'll turn off ten more for you because of the impression you left with them. Turn them on and you'll start a domino effect, one fan speaks to ten, and those ten speak to another ten, etc., etc.

Marty's quote struck me. He said, "Sometimes when you play in a bar, nobody listens until they hear one they recognize. Then after you get their attention by playing something they know, they'll keep paying attention and listen to your songs." I believe this is true.

I think part of my problem is that I consider myself, primarily, a hobbyist songwriter. I like to write and record. But making my own CDs in my little studio and releasing them online was fun for only so long. I started to want to get out and play. I discovered JPF and started attending local JPF showcases, and started liking it. From there I started going to open mic nights, hosted by JPF members. Now I'm starting to play at coffee houses and am in the process of buying a small PA, and I'm working on my song list. And I'm starting to realize, through all of this conversation, that what I'm doing is becoming an amateur performing musician, and that is DIFFERENT than being a songwriter. My initial reason for doing this was to get out and play MY music in front of others, and the only reason I considered covers was because I don't have enough material. I still feel that way. I want to play my music and possibly sell a few of my CDs.

But I think there are some really good points in this thread. Some good points from this thread are to make the covers your own, which I sort of am doing, and also that it's extremely hard to carry an entire evening on all original music. People like hearing what they know and are probably more willing to listen to your own tunes if they're in a mix with tunes they know. I'm starting to agree that this is probably the best approach for me.

I'm a hobbyist - I'm not interested in making a career out of this and I'm not doing it for the money. But I still think that a nice mix of covers and originals is going to be what works best. I REALLY appreciate all the thoughts and ideas. And earning a little extra cash on the side wouldn't be a bad thing.

I have always mixed originals with cover songs. I pick songs based on the following criteria:

1. It suits my personal taste.
2. I feel some kind of connection with either the lyrics or the writer (and usually both)
3. I can make it sound as if it was a song I was meant to do. That means I do not try to sound exactly like the original version, but I try to make sure I know the song well so my version sounds real.

Some songs I would love to do but know they just do not work for me the way I want so I don't do them.

Someone else mentioned using a cover song to get the crowd's attention before showing them your song. I have found this to be an effective way to introduce a new song to a crowd. If you can really nail the cover song that the crowd knows and likes, then you have their ears to play something new that they haven't heard. If you nail it, as well, then you couldn't ask for more from your audience (short of showering you with money, of course).

I consider playing covers a necessary evil. (Actually I consider performing a necessary evil. My deal is writing songs. But it was apparent pretty early on that my style was, well, best suited to be performed by me - meaning no one else would touch the stuff!)

So with covers, much like Jack, I tend to pick stuff I like, stuff I connect with and stuff I can do that stays within who I am as a performer. They're a necessary evil because you can and do make that connection with your audience when they recognize something.

But I'll say it again and again.... I sometimes think we (and venues especially) don't give patrons enough credit for being open to original stuff. Maybe it's because I'm a backer of original music, but I would much rather hear a good original band than a great cover band. Here's a 'what are you thinkin?' statement, but I wish there were more places with original music and more original music introduced on the radio. It's unfortunate that we'll never hear some of the best music ever created because there was no way to get to it. Rather, on the radio we get the same 30 - 40 songs played over and over again. Familiarity breeds contempt (or something like that).

Luckily in the Tampa area there are quite a few Open Mics as well as a growing number of songwriter showcases for original music. The talent around here is amazing and requires the outlet. I am glad to have had the opportunity to have heard some great songs that could hold their own in their respective genres. However, much like every other place, the paying gigs are still the cover gigs. I don't consider that a good thing.

That's enough of my rambling.

Steve V

I hear ya there Steve on the same 30-40 songs and artists! What's even worse is that over the last 5 years or so, it's even gotten worse on the rock stations as the labels continue to release their "Cookie-cutter" bands with music that sounds almost identical, with the same rythems, same dull leads, and the same mono-tone singers fronting the band.

To analyze this a little further...

I've been sort of going on the assumption that I was going to play covers that I felt like playing, but what I'm starting to realize... that is probably not the best approach. I draw a line in the sand about playing songs I dislike - I will NOT do it. I have a day job and this is a hobby. NO JIMMY BUFFETT. But much like Steve said, the whole point of me getting out there and performing is to get my own music heard. In order to do that, I need to give my music every opportunity to succeed.

That means getting the crowd in a receptive mood. So if I play a song by Michael Franks or Don Dixon or one of my other idols, no one will recognize the song. To the crowd it will just be another song they don't know. But if I play a song by James Taylor, or REM, they're going to know it (mostly) and hopefully if I do a good job they'll enjoy it and they'll be more receptive to hearing an original song. My trick is going to be picking artists and songs I like that other people will also like. Shouldn't be that hard.

Does this make sense? Am I learning?

Hi Richard:

Interesting topic. Glad it's not one of my problems. I don't perform and my albums are all prepared (or are being prepared) for CDBaby Digital Distribution. I don't do "covers" 'cause my objective is to put my songs out there with the idea that somebody with real talent might do a "cover" or two.

I have begun to practice privately doing covers more just to increase my understanding of how a great song is played. Man, we are blessed with an astounding amount of great music in the world today. Obversely, there is also an equal amount of not so great stuff floating around the airwaves too.

Audiences vary from place to place and recognizing the "age group" and other factors (venue) would play a part in my selections of cover songs if I had to make a living playing and singing as an entertainer.

All my best,

Dave Rice

Richard you are beginning to learn but you only really learn from actual experience. Get out in front of people then you will START learning. Realise that ANY entertainer's first priority is to entertain the audience that is in front of them at that time. You have to be versatile and a fast learner. You have to be able to read what an audience want at any particular moment and supply it. YOU HAVE TO GET THEIR ATTENTION. Forget set lists. Nothing is set in stone. All audiences are different. Sometimes when get requests you have to bite the bullet and play something you dislike. So what, big deal, DOING otherwise you may alienate the audience. Trying to get back an audience who you have distanced is almost impossible. Remember if you are performing to an audience it is for their benefit and entertainment not YOUR self indulgance. Once you have captured the audience then you can experiment with songs they may not recognise. Try to play a good mixture to keep everyone happy. Cover songs that you play in your own way is a good middle road before introducing your own material.

Dave,
I wish you the best of luck out there with your original music on the web. I haven't had much luck at it myself. Are you trying to sell CD's and have an online career, or are you more interested in selling songs? If you want to sell songs... it's really, really tough. Everyone and their brother feels like music should be free to download nowadays, and there are 8 kabillion musicians with their own original music out there on the Internet. It's really really tough to sell music that way. Not impossible, because obviously people are doing it, but it so much depends on your style of music. Some styles are much easier to sell online than others, I believe.

On the other hand, if you're out there performing... if people are digging you and your music, they might buy a CD right at the show. I've done it a bunch of times before. So now I'm going to try the other side of it - try to sell my own CDs.

And I definitely believe that you don't have to do music for a living to want to do what I'm setting out to do. I'm primarily just trying to get my music heard, and if possible, sell some CDs and pick up a little spare change.

It will be an interesting experiment. I believe I will sell more CDs live than I do online, but we shall see how it works out. Regardless, it will be fun.

Big Jim,

I want very much to try to pick covers that will appeal to the audience. I want to play covers I play my own way and also play my own songs. I want to connect with the audience. But I'm not playing requests unless it's a song that I would normally play anyway.

But regarding taking requests... you don't know how much I HATE playing songs I dislike. It's not like, "Aw, man, I don't feel like playing that." I literally can't stand doing it. I'm a snob. I freely admit it. I'm not cut out for making a living as a member of a cover band. That's not for me. My number one goal is to have fun. My number two goal is to play my own music in front of people. My third goal is to pick up a little extra change, via selling CDs, or getting paid, or even a tip jar. That means, given my goals, I have to devise a strategy to meet those goals in the proper order.

But life isn't black and white - some of the strategies and techniques that cover bands use will be very useful to me, and that's why I started this thread - to learn. I very much appreciate it and plan on taking advantage of it. And I agree with most of your advice, because it's good advice.

But the only way I'm taking requests is if I already know the song. And the only songs I know are songs I like. Fortunately I've got pretty broad tastes...

You are correct about selling at gigs. A guy will buy a CD on impulse to impress his girlfriend if she says "Oh I like that song." Drunk people will buy anything. Sober on the internet is a whole different ball game. Folk will only see obscure stuff by accident and then probably won't buy. You need to build a fan base. Live appearances and word of mouth is a good start. I admire your attitude. Do not think you will get very far with it but I admire it. You have to meet an audience at least half way IF YOU WANT TO GAIN ANY RESPECT OR CREDIBILITY WITH THEM regardless of what material you play. I have seen famous bands who refuse to perform their old hits at concerts booed off stage. Snobbery and disrespect to an audience IS UNFORGIVEABLE.

Big Jim,
You don't think that doing a mix of covers and originals, for an original artist, is meeting the audience half way? I really feel like it is. I'm talking about covers that most people would know and enjoy. My only line is that I'm not going to play songs I don't like. I can afford to do that.

As to not being able to get very far with this approach, that's probably true... but my number one goal is not to make money... it is to have fun. So long as I enjoy it, that's what really matters to me. And I'm also convinced that I'll go as far, locally, as my talent goes. If I'm really, really good, I'll move up to better gigs. If I suck, I'll stop getting them altogether. If I'm OK, I'll probably stand still.

I'm very surprised we have only heard from one "all original" guy. I know JPF'ers out there who have stated in the past that playing covers is something they refuse to do. I'm surprised that some of the more outspoken people haven't chimed in.

Heck, if every one of us played only what the audience wants to hear, there'd be no new music. I've said in the past, myself, that I'd rather play my own song in front of 10 people than a cover song in front of 100. But I'd rather play a cover song and THEN my own song in front of 100, I guess!

Hi Richard:

I'm one of those poor fools who wants labels and/or talented artists to pick up my songs for covers. To that end, I only use CDBaby's Digital Only service 'cause I don't have a desire to get into the CD printing, labeling and mailing business. Hopefully, this will offset my expenses with downloads from iTunes, Rhapsody, Napster and a few dozen others. (I don't count my time as an expense 'cause I would otherwise probably be out on the golf course getting "skinned" by my buddies.)

I use an Internet "Radio" Service called xenaRadio.com to post a few of my more than 500 songs in several genres. The idea is that someday, when the publishers and labels begin to seriously consider searching for music via that medium, I just might have a shot. I've tried mailing stuff from pillar to post all over the world but it's a losing proposition. Unless you have a significant network of influential folks, its extremely tough to get your "stuff" out there.

My belief is that oneday soon, I will write a song (Heaven knows what genre???) that will suddenly "take off" and begin funneling folks (and hopefully money)in my direction. I don't want to perform or tour. (I'm just too old and I never developed what I consider to be a stage presence.) Besides, I enjoy my privacy too much. Its wonderful to walk into a McDonalds and not be recognized.

To me, it's about two things: 1. Monetary reward for my progeny and 2. A type of immortality... my songs just might live on long after I'm gone.

I hope I've answered your question(s) and, if not, let me hear from you. Thanks for asking.

All my best,

Dave Rice http://xenaRadio.com/David_Lynn_Rice/

Dave,
Have you given any thoughts to Taxi?

I can only say from an untradtional perspective.
I know mainly of bands getting paid gigs doing originals.

I recall Deep Purple having a song named "Hush" that was a cover.
If I were to do a cover, I would like to exploit the lesser known of my favorite act to commemerate them.

As far as the licensing, to my understanding, the tavern or club has to pay to even have a song played out of their jukebox.

Matt

You miss my point Richard. If you put yourself in front of an audience you have to entertain them and that means playing what they want to hear. Anything else is just for your self indulgance and gratification. Usually audiences are not responsive to this kind of thing and will take the hump if you do not "meet them half way" by playing requests. As I stated earlier I see no reason why a person cannot play a few songs just to please an audience. It is no big deal even if you do not like the song. It is a trade off. They get what they want and you get what you want, exposure, experience and a chance to play some of your own material. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Just smile and sing the songs. Let the punters enjoy themselves. I would rather be remembered as a nice guy who played our song rather than a creep who refused to play requests.

I think I'm beginning to see your point. You feel that a musician should take audience requests, ie play what the audience wants to hear, and if they don't, they're self indulgent.

This is interesting. People who gig and record and play only their own songs are called artists. Are artists self indulgent? That's an interesting question. By your definition, they are. But "artist" has positive connotations, and "self indulgent" has negative connotations. What about self indulgent artist? That would be someone who has a fan base and ignores what the fans want. Should an artist cater to their fans? That would be a great topic for another forum thread. I'm going to start that thread.

Well, taking that all into account, I'm definitely self indulgent. I only want to play in places that are receptive to original music. I only want to play music I like. I'm willing to play covers but they've got to be great songs. I'm not interested in taking requests. People need to understand when they come to see me that I'm going to play my music. That's the whole point I'm there. I'm also going to play some great cover songs. Between the two, hopefully they'll be entertained. If not, then I won't be asked back. I'm not going to please people who are coming to see me expecting me to take requests. But I'm billed as an original artist. Why would people expect me to take requests?

I've seen plenty of local artists that people liked, who didn't take requests. Maybe the music scene is different here in the States.

Hi Richard:

To answer your question, No! I have never considered Taxi or some of their "look alikes" out there. I'm just too proud (or stubborn) to put my songs in the hands of Belmont students in the employ of a growing conglomerate. I don't have to be told that my songs are good. (Maybe not great, but good!) I just need somebody with real talent to sing them.

I once visited a meeting at a nearby NSAI chapter and one of the participants told the group her experience with one of the reviewers at one of those "services." She was told that she should make a few modifications and she would have a "hit" on her hands. After going back to the studio and doing exactly what she was told to do, she re-submitted and the yokel on the other end denied that he had ever advised her to spend megabucks to do what he advised. Typical!

Songwriting should be all about getting paid for writing a good song. Instead, its all about financing the waltz in Nashville. Just about all of them want the songwriter to "pull the train" without compensation.

...and that begs the question, "Why do you write songs?" Then the old man replied, "Because I have to!"

All my best,

Dave Rice

Dave,

One thing to keep in mind. There's not one service in Nashville or anywhere else that doesn't truly want to help that songwriter or artist have a huge hit. Think about it, if one of their clients has a hit, then their business is improved. The waltz in Nashville is really about having hits. The problems are, there are only so many hits possible (and the number is diminishing unless the radio/hit model finally gets broken), and not every service is effective or "good."

You can go to a tennis pro for lessons. Some pros will improve your game, some won't, but that doesn't make all tennis pros want you to "pull the train."

The reality is that every single service (even the shark and/or incompetent) wants you to have a big hit, that's what really pulls the train.

All the Best,
Mike

Dave,
I've been tempted to do the Taxi thing myself, but I won't do it either.

I know people who've done it, and of course there are several threads on this board that cover the topic ad nauseum.

That topic has some similarities to this one - If you want to SELL songs, you need to craft them in the manner that people want, or you have to hope to get real lucky. What I've been told about Taxi is that when you submit a song, they'll catch every little thing that is "technically" wrong with it, ie weak rhyming scheme, cliche phrases, etc. But they'll also of course subject the song's strength to their own personal tastes and opinions. And then they pass the song along to whomever is looking, and they're looking for stuff that sounds like what is already successful. All in all, it's a good formula for keeping music sounding the same, IMHO.

Side note - Listen to the top rated songs on garageband.com. No disrespect to any of the artists there, but the top rated songs all sound to me like second string radio tripe. Obviously Taxi is not the only place where emphasis is placed on sounding like what has already been successful. I mean, please, we only need ONE John Mayer.

The biggest reason I've chosen not to do Taxi is because making money isn't the reason I write songs. Much like you, I write because I have to. And I have no interest in crafting songs a certain way so that they sound like the rest of the crappy songs on the radio. I write what I want to write, and people can like it or hate it, and that's fine.

But if I had to pay the bills writing songs, I'd use the same formulas that they use on the radio and do everything by the book so the songs could go through Taxi without needing mods. That's why I don't write songs to pay the bills. I write them on my terms. That's also how the two topics are similar. I like to live life on my own terms, and that includes music. Actually, ESPECIALLY music.

When I play, I play for myself.
And - I'll do maybe 25 - 30 originals, and maybe 3-4 covers . . .
I play what I like to hear.
Music is emotion, and I play what I am currently feeling at the time (usually happy & upbeat).
If people like my music: great.
If not - oh, well . . . I am who I am: I won't pretend to be someone else.
Don't get me wrong - it's a great feeling when people get up and spontaneously start dancing, or if you see a real lot of toes tapping, or if you see people break out on smiles or laughs when you do some 'instrumental humor" . . . like when a song takes a cool turn . . .
Fortunately - people like my music.
And I love music. I live and breath and dream music.
If it gets to the point where people don't like my originals - then I'm out of a job.
Because I'd rather punch a time-card in a factory than ruin my life's love of music by playing mediocre music . . .

Well said, RhythmMan:

Welcome aboard. Glad to have you among us. Post often.

Mike:

Your words ring true. Now, loan me your key to the gates of Nashville.

Richard:

Sounds alot like the song Frank Sinatra made so famous: "My Way" and I could not agree with you more.

All my best... to all of you.

Dave Rice

Rythmn man your logic is illogical. You either play what entertains an audience or you do not. If you do not play what they want to hear then you are just self indulgant and on a ego trip. No one made any money or gained fame, respect or a good reputation by playing just only what "I like to hear" to just themselves. If you are in the fortunate position where an audience responds to "what you like to hear" then good and well. This does not happen very often in the real world. Even megastars have to cater for their fans. I have worked with some of the best over the years and even they concede that they quite often and in some cases nearly always have to play crap becauses that is what the fans want to hear. To a man they and I have no time for arty farty snobbery.
Any professional regardless of career has to forget their ego and do what pays the bills and perform tasks that their profession demands whether they want to or not. If they do not then they cannot be called a professional.
I will sum up. An artist's job is to entertain the audience. You have to do what it takes. If you turn your nose up at playing certain things then do not be surprised if the audience turns it's nose up at you.
Doing what an audience wants is just being nice. Refusing a simple request because you are too arty farty, the audience can only think you are being an unobliging jerk. Frankly so would I.

Big Jim,
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I think some of your thoughts, suggestions, and ideas have been very helpful. In terms of the point of playing requests, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't feel that musicians who don't play requests are arty farty jerks, and you disagree. That makes me an arty farty jerk, at least in your opinion. But I'm fairly comfortable with myself.

RhythmMan,
I went to your website and your goals seem pretty similar to mine. The idea of "I'm going to do what I feel like, when I feel like it" is bothersome to career musicians - it flies in the face of what they do. However, I think that guys like us who write their own rulebook still need to look at how things are done, because knowledge is good. It's better to know than not to know. It's good to gather facts and opinions.

A lot of singers refuse to take vocal lessons because they don't want anyone messing with their voice, but they blow their voice out every other night because they belt out high notes instead of singing in middle voice. And some songwriters don't want critcism because they think their music is above reproach... all the while, making rookie mistakes in their melodies, arrangements, and lyrics.

For that reason, I think all vocalists ought to study with a voice teacher at least once, and all songwriters ought to seek out advice on their songs at some point.

But if no one ever broke the rules, life would be very boring. Our society is full of examples of people who threw out the rulebook and did important stuff. So is music. And so you can't put a song up, say, on garageband.com and use that feedback to guide your style and sound, or you're going to end up sounding like everyone else. There are tons of singers who would not have been successful on American Idol.

So where's the line where you learn to tell what the rules are and then you break them? Hard to say. I do think that making music is a highly personal experience and people have many different opinions about it. Everyone has to choose their own path. But some things are true - if you release your music on CDBaby and you don't do any marketing, it will sit there. If you perform at a country/western bar and you play heavy metal, you're going to get hurt. These things I'm pretty sure of.

Richard I agree to disagree but at least you finally see my point. You expressed it perfectly. As a career musician you have to go where the money is and do what the audience want. As a hobbyist you can do what you want when you want. A hobbyist will never make a career out of music unless he sees the light and changes his attitude. It is what separates the amateurs from the pros.
Re voice coaching I have never had any coaching but have picked up a few things and a modicum of knowledge over the years. A pal of mine does some voice coaching and has certificates etc. He sometimes asks me for tips and advice and vice versa. I, like you, think that coaching is no bad thing. I also believe in music lessons and writers attenting workshops or classes to help them with the basics. It is just common sense and saves time from making elementary errors. All the best.

PS Keeping a punter happy by playing a request or happy birthday or whatever never did any harm. Have you never heard of the "feel good" factor. That is my main point but if you are too mean to do that well.....why should the audience listen to your song. I call it a trade off.

Richard,your question is really all about "where you are at in this business" as to whether you play cover tunes or not..If like yourself you are a hobbyist,tho an aspiring songwriter,but NOT dependent on music to put food on the table,,,well it is certainly your perogative to play whatever music you feel appropriate at any given gig...whether it be an open mic..or a coffee house.. or wherever, i can fully understand where you are coming from......when you are using these type of venues for promotion of your own original material..you really only want the punters to hear your own stuff,and if you are happy in that given scenario,even tho the attention span of your average punter to new material(except your granny or your mother)is akin to that of a gnat..well, whatever...but you will need to be good.
You really have to give their ears a break now and then, and throw in a few covers..to breed some familiarity.....
On the other hand,i would say Bob Cushing's reply just about nailed it for me...iam not in the fortunate poition where i can just walk into a gig..mic up a guitar.and sing into the house PA..and play for tips or pats on the back...as i said at the top ..it all depends on "where you are at" in this business..and whare iam at Richard is at the mercy of the owners of the given establishments of where i play every week..and their priority is "bums on seats"...if when i had started playing in these clubs and pubs and only done my own original material...well i dare say for a start i would not had have enough material to cover 3hours+...so covers were a must...you gotta play what the punters want to hear and what they know...and they must walk out that door at the end of the night with the feel good factor..they have had a good night's entertainment..if they do..you have done your job..and you will be asked back..that is your starter for 10 as regards building up a fan base...also get to know how to "read" an audience...and what they like...now on to the Songwriting part.....start slipping in your own material..but do not leave it too late..the booze takes over...catch them semi-sober and attentive...mention this is one of your own songs...and it will be available or is available on CD..that way you get a pulse on your songwriting...either by feedback...or watching people's faces, when they hear the songs..it is very hard for anybody to disguise their enjoyment of any given song...you will know when you have struck a chord with your audience first by their faces, and by the response you get when you finish your song...one of the best tools the Songwriter has in this business is "word of mouth"..people love to "be the first"..in that i mean.."have you heard this?" they will say to their friends..i bought this CD last night of a local songwriter etc etc, they may only buy it for the one track they heard..but you will get good mileage out of it advertising wise...so it really is all about mix'n'match...There is totally nothing wrong about "doing your own thing"...but a lot of this business is about self-promotion,and more importantly WHEN..and HOW you promote yourself...the big mistake a lot of artists make is to think that their audience isn't too bright...that is a fatal mistake...people pick up vibes off an artist the very same way artists pick up vibes off an audience...and the cardinal rule is not to come across as elitist...or this is what i do ..."take it or leave it" in the vast masjority of cases the punters will leave it...you want your music out there in the public arena?..of course you do! well you gotta meet them halfway
BUT the bottom line as well...you gotta be able to write songs that the public want to buy and take home with them at the end of any given night...in this business, success breeds success..and one last thing ...as a songwriter you MUST be able to move in and out your comfort zone in equal measurements...basically,don't stick to one Genre of writing..
By the way Richard,read your blog on your site...some good info there...and listened to your song "Last Farewell Kiss"...very enjoyable......Terry Moore...

Geez, talk about snobbery.

Scott GEEZ That is exactly what I WAS doing. if you maybe read the WHOLE piece and previous postings you would see where I was coming from. "Talking about snobbery" I was pointing out the simple fact that you have to play songs that an audience enjoys. If you do not then you will always be a hobbyist as no one will want to listen to you. Folk with ideas about only playing material they personally want to play and ditching everything else including requests in my opininion is self indulgant snobbery of the worst kind. An audience will soon pick up on that fact and alienate themselves totally from the performer. I am no snob. I respect all fellow musicians and audiences and will happily play any song to any audience on any given night with any other musicians. I USUALLY GET PAID FOR DOING IT but I would happily do it for free and have done on many occasions. I respect my audiences and try to please them. It would appear that others are not as kind hearted towards folk they are trying to impress and may want to sell CDs to. As I said in my quote unless people change their attitude and see the light and change their attitudes they will never gain any credibility with an audience. Professionalism is not just measured on an ability to write and perforn songs it is also about the ability to read an audience play what they want to hear and send them home with the feel good factor. It does not cost anything to play a song folk ask for. Why such a big deal?
Terry Moore perhaps in a more polite and tactful way made similar observations and gave similar advice. Is he a snob as well?

Hi there -

I usually do mostly my original material on gigs. When I do perform covers, I like to make them completely my own. In other words, I apply a unique take on the tune - people may actually not even recognize it at first. I guess that defeats the whole purpose of doing a cover, doesn't it??

Thanks for enduring my rant.

TKT

Hi TKT, covers done your own way is fine. We do that a lot. Just as long as the folks enjoy them. Do you do requests or play standards?

I occasionally play covers, but I rarely do requests that aren't my own songs. I've never played for an audience who didn't want to hear what I had to play.

Sorry, but I'm not going to learn "Brown-Eyed Girl" just so I can bust it out at some gig. If someone is disappointed about that, they're either at the wrong gig, or I am. I don't take gigs that require me to play 3 hours of covers. I'm trying to write new music, not play surrogate rock-star. That doesn't make me -- or anyone -- an "amateur."

It's not an "ego trip," it's called stepping up your game, and to suggest otherwise seem extremely hypocritical coming from someone who plays other people's music for money.

I guess Faith Hill and Tim Mcgraw {the billion dollar duo} or half the country stars in Nashville for that matter, who've never written their own stuff are "surrogate" stars, cuz they play other people's music for money.{LOL} Seriously though Scott, it's VERY cool that you get to play venues where people truly appreciate your own music,{I'm NOT being sarcastic!} and you are TRULY blessed to have never had to learn "Brown Eyed Girl" {GAWD, I hate that song!!!!!} We need to swap gigs sometime!

Bob and Scott:

Fun replies. That's why I enjoy this board so much. Great folks, great opinions.

Thanks for all you do.

Scott, what genre(s) do you work in? I'm pretty sure Bob is big-time country oriented. (Pineyfest!)

B-T-W Bob, I have an interesting country song about Cincinnati I'd like you to hear sometime. It's called, "Prodigal."

All my best,

Dave Rice

Hey Scott You are very very lucky to have an attitude like that and still be able to satisfy your audience. They pay you as well. Wow I am impressed. But sorry, being blunt, in my eyes you are an amateur AT LEAST IN ATTITUDE. With an unprofessional attitude that sucks you would not last five minutes on our circuit or with any musician I know regardless of how good your songs are or how good a player you are. We have to entertain folks and put butts on seats. I do not think you could cut it. That means playing anything including covers and requests that the audience want to hear. The booking agents and club owners demand it. You say you have stepped up the game. I doubt it. You have just got too big for your boots and forgotten the basics of what music is about. Even big international names that I have worked with over the years still would play requests and covers to please an audience as they have not forgotten their humble beginnings and realise that they have to keep fans happy. It is called civility. Anything less is just plain rude and ignorant.

I take it you are a solo act. I wonder why.

You have the cheek and audacity to call me a snob. Look up it's defination and add your name as a classic example. Sorry to be so blunt and probably rude but I think you deserve it.

Hey Bob Brown Eyed Girl used to be a favourite song of mine but after singing it thousands of times it wears off a bit.

For the record, Scott and I have butted heads over other threads in the past...I think Scott is a talented guy who has some very exellent stuff. I envy the fact that he's apparently gotten himself into a circuit where people come out specifically to hear his music, and more power to him! Unfortunately I haven't been that lucky {yet!]. Even as many years as I 've played in my general area, on any given night I know maybe one third of the crowd are there to wallow in my "Bobness", and the rest are there to get loaded and hear familiar tunes,and don't give a rats ass about me {sad but true} If throwing out the occasional crowd favorite is what I've gotta do to pay my bills,and ensure that I never EVER have to work another day job, so be it...I don't think it makes me any less of an "artist" to in Jim's words "give the punters what they want" If nothing else, it gives me the forum to lay my originals on em'[which certainly DON'T suck} and past history shows I must be doing something right, cuz I've sold a LOT of CD'S over the years. I'm gonna let this thread go now because although it might be a new topic to these boards, there's a local Cincinnati music forum {cincymusic.com} where EVERY SINGLE TOPIC OR THREAD winds up in this original vs cover argument, and I hold you folks to a much higher standard then those knuckleheads...Carry on!

They pay I play. It's that simple. They pay me to play biker bar music, that's what I play, they pay me to play Holiday Inn music that's what I play.

You don't play what the paying guy wants, you don't work, you don't work your music goes no where.

Doug Well put. Agree 100%

Here's an interesting twist to this whole thing. I play two monday nights per month at a coffee house in Tampa, hosted by two JPF members. It's a singer/songwriter open mic night. Last night they just informed us that they're no longer going to allow people to get up in front of the mic and do covers - only original tunes from now on. This is because the place is not licensed to have music and pay royalties to ASCAP/BMI/Whomever. But I guess original music performed by the original artist is different.

Some small coffee shops in the US have gotten sued because people were playing covers there and the shop didn't have the proper licensing. I don't understand all the legalities... but since you only play 2 songs and it's only open mic, I don't much care - I usually just play my own two songs anyway. It's great for trying out songs to see how they go over.

It makes me wonder if this will be a trend and some of these small mom & pop shops will either
A) tell their acoustic musicians to play only originals
B) pay the money and buy the proper licensing on their shoestring budget
C) stop having any musicians play at all

I think a lot of these small little places will opt for A. Which sort of takes away the debate, at least for THOSE places.

I can already hear the groans of some folks following this thread! They're gonna say "Those little mom & pop coffee shops are CHEAP and they need to pony up and pay whatever licensing is necessary so that they can have live musicians play covers." I have no idea what such licensing costs. I do know that these guys are operating on a very small budget and many would probably opt for A or C. I would have no problem with A, except for one thing... Coffee shops who only allow originals and also want you to play for 3 hours had better get used to people doing the same set three times!

Also, I'd like to point out that the original poster (me) had asked three questions, and all three used the word YOU. Meaning the role of covers in YOUR musical career or hobby or whatever. The question wasn't "What do you think about OTHER people playing covers?" And I got sucked into it too.

It's like asking someone if you can look at how they've decorated their living room, and they invite you in, and then insult the way YOU decorate YOUR living room. My motivation is to hear all kinds of opinions and then pick and choose what makes sense to me.