JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum The Most Important Film In American History? Maybe

Jody,

Okay.. then you're an idiot for doing it as well! = )

If someone is ranting about semantics and never gets back to the point being made, it gets us nowhere. It might make for a good pissing match, but doesn't forward the discussion. This is a long post. Most people have not read every single post, nor do most retain every detail about every single post. Usually when that happens, people will reasonably repeat and expand on facts or info that was missed. Rather than discuss his premise and continue to share new info on both sides, he's now ranting because he's upset I didn't make the connection to the drugs he was giving examples for and the ones he named earlier in his post. Most reasonable people would have said "I did mention it in my post, read it again" and THEN they'd get back on their topic and make their point. But since everything else he's said is wrong at it's core, he's choosing to fixate on the fact that I didn't see the names of the drugs in question (even though that info wasn't complete since amounts and whether or not generic brands were involved weren't included) and he's now arguing about that rather than the point he supposedly wanted to make. With his rambling tirades, does he really want people to go back and pick semantic errors or other similar problems with his posts ad nauseam and argue nothing but that, or does he actually want to discuss the points he made? Apparently he wants to rant for the sake of ranting and when his points have been shot down, he seems to want to search for anything he can scream about. Yawn.

Brian

That's why I said you strike me as a good fellow, Jody. Straight up. And I am as well! If I'm proven wrong, I'm the quickest apologist you'll ever meet. All I can say is, "Thank God it happens so rarely!"


As for you, Brian

What was that again? Something about deeper and deeper?

Well, sir. I JUST hung up with CVS Pharmacy to check out your no doubt about it facts, and guess what?

I asked for the price of 60 amiodarone 200 mg. After a moment's pause, he said $79.99."

I then asked if he would meet Costco's price of twenty-...that's as far as I got.

He interrupted with, "You're kidding? No sir, can't do that." He then went on to tell me how he sent his father-in-law to Costco.

Knowing what a stickler you are for detail, Brian, I'm taking the liberty of posting the name and phone number of the man and the store (although he told me it was company wide...they WILL match slightly lower prices of competitors, but definitely NOT match anyone's), so you can call another one. But if you do choose to do that and come back ranting that they said they WILL meet Costco's price, please provide me with the same courtesy of entering the phone number of the store. He gave this as an example to shoot down your infallible, factual theory: "If Joe Independent up the street sells it to you for $2, am I then obligated to meet his price." He will be there all afternoon (central time) and is eagerly awaiting your call.

Pharmacy: CVS

Pharmacist: Tim

Phone: (205) 428-6312

Better be careful on whom you draw swords, Brian. I have a strong distaste for defeat, so I rarely say things I can't back up.

BTW, as for that deeper "hole", I notice you studiously avoided admitting it was more than slightly obtuse of you not to have noticed that I had, in fact, mentioned the drugs being discussed. But that's Ok. As I said earlier"....eat nails"

Hi Ben,

I'll do you one better. I'll have an actual CVS pharmacist who is a registered member here tell you directly, in writing, herself.

Stay tuned.

Brian

How is that one better, Brian? I think actually SPEAKING to the party trumps a note! Duh. Scared to call him, ain'tcha. I knew it!

Here's another one, big guy. Didn't ask her name...simply posed the question, Will you match Costco? "No, we're not allowed to price match, except for places like WalGreen, Winn-Dixie and Harco."

CVS Bessemer (205) 425-1837

BY the way...who the heck do you think I'm talking to in these CVS stores? UNREGISTERED pharmacists?

Sorry, I JUST noticed this:

" But since everything else he's said is wrong at it's core, he's choosing to fixate on the fact that I didn't see the names of the drugs in question (even though that info wasn't complete since amounts and whether or not generic brands were involved weren't included) and he's now arguing about that rather than the point he supposedly wanted to make. With his rambling tirades, does he really want people to go back and pick semantic errors or other similar problems with his posts ad nauseam and argue nothing"

You are an absolute joke, man! As for this "whether or not generic brands", I put EXACTLY what it says on my prescription bottles.

Bottom line, you bit off more than you can chew and now you're reverting to ad hominem attacks, while invoking the same infantile metaphor you used when attacking Lisa, "Pissing contests." How gauche!

Ben

Ben,
I am the pharmacist Brian was referring to. I have been working for CVS for 21 years, 18 of those years as a pharmacy manager. I told Brian that I would match Costco's prices, once verified, to maintain your business. Our company empowers the pharmacy staff to take care of our customers. I am sorry that the pharmacist you spoke to did not even consider verifying the price that Costco quoted you, he probably should have. Flat out saying no on a price match is definately not our company's policy.

Now there is a possibility that the district managers in the area you are living have made the decision to not match the warehouse and mass merchant pharmacies in your area for some reason. That is not a company wide policy. We do not match mail-order pharmacies...that is company wide.

I agree that prices for our self-pay customers are not always the best. We do offer the convenience of having drive-thru's and 24 hour pharmacies which is something you probably won't get with Costco. I understand that price is very important to everyone, especially those who don't have insurance. Though Costco and Walmart are our competitors, I suspect that if you did price comparisons with pharmacies that are more like CVS, example Walgreens, you would probably find that the prices are closer. I stand by my company and do not feel that CVS is trying to "[take] us to the cleaners". I often encourage cash customers to price shop and bring those prices to me so we can keep their prescription records together. We also take competitor's coupons for prescriptions...you know those get a $25 gift card for any new or transferred prescription. I'm not sure Costco would do that.

There are a lot of problems with our healthcare industry and prescription drugs to cost a lot especially if you have no insurance. The reality is that those prescription drugs actually reduce a lot of health care costs by keeping the patient out of the hospital. I would suggest that you consider looking into some of the assistance that is out there for the non-insured. We offer a discount for AAA members that is often very good. Here are a couple of other places you might look:

Partnership for Prescription Assistance
https://www.pparx.org

RxAssist
http://www.rxassist.org

Both of these sites give you access to manufacturer programs.

Together Rx
http://www.togetherrxaccess.com/home.html

This is a program that partners with manufacturers to give you good prices on their drugs. It is a discount card that works in many pharmacies for quite a few drugs.

Also you can talk to your doctor about samples, though the drugs you are checking prices on right now might not be available as they both have generics available.

I hope you find a pharmacy and pharmacist that you trust with prices that you can afford. If it is not CVS, then so be it as it is not right for everyone. However it probably does not deserve the direct attack. You might turn to the manufacturers and the differences they charge in our country versus other countries. I did not see this movie yet, though I am sure it is addressed in some way.

Hi Linda,

I was merely pointing out the vast difference in price, not merely with CVS, but almost ALL pharmacies. The 2 pharmacists I spoke with could not have called Costco, as they are closed on Sunday. However, they were both familiar with Costco pricing. As I told Brian, the first man I spoke with told me he sent his father-in-law to Costco.

So I can only go by what I hear directly from the horse's mouths, and they both iterated exactly the same thing.

Thanks for your time though, Linda. I guess even large corporations can have different policies in different stores/areas.

Ben
ng.

Hey Brian, I didn't realize I was your lackey!! {LOL}

You know what, Bobby boy...instead of shielding why don't you speak directly to the source of your...whatever the hell it is you have a problem with. I'm fairly certain I didn't initiate a conversation with you, so what are you on about? The fact that you arrived at "lackey" from this comment:

"Alright, Brian. I'm not letting you slide and having your buddies give me all kinds of "advice" (prozac......"

You popped in asserting that "somebody" needed Prozac. Was that me? If so, who the heck are you? If not, to whom were you directing your snide remark?

And tell me how you manage to equate "buddies" with "lackeys."

You remind me of a sniper lurking in the shadows.{LOL}

So Ben, I watched the clip. They (the conservative hippies) didn't pay to watch it and they seemed to like it. They said if you can get past Michael Moore's distortion of the truth, then it is worth watching. I kept waiting for an example of a distortion of the truth and then they came up with the fact that H Clinton got 800 and some odd thousand dollars from the medical industry but that is what I remember Michael Moore saying in the documentary so that was a strange figure to offer as proof of distortion. They actually made Moore's point. I don't see that they disagreed with him at all.

So there you go, SJH, even some conservatives are chowderheads!
Hey, I posted it. Do you think I thought, "Boy, this will show them?" It was to make the same point as with my post about saving on drugs at Costco...once people perceive you as a conservative, antagonist...whatever, then even when you're actually not dissenting with them, they automatically assume some sort of underhandedness is afoot. (Get it? hand...foot...oh, well, I thought it was cute! )

You think med costs don't drive me up the wall? Earlier in this thread I posted a virtual copy of a bill for my birth. Not ONE person felt any need to say a word. Now, I find it hard to believe that everyone read it and thought, "Yeah, sounds about right." It totally blew my mind when I first saw it about 10 years ago. I put it there to show how outrageous med costs have become, but, again, not a single utterance.

And if you truly are a conservative, as you claim, but I'm sorry, I've seen not the slightest hint of it in your various writings (don't be misled by that comment, I've read but a small percentage of your writings, nonetheless...), you'll likely agree with some of these quotes regarding BIG government (and believe me, putting our entire health care system in their hands would be....ouch!)

If You Think Health Care is Expensive Now, Wait Until You See What it Costs when it's Free!
(By: Greg Hengler)

But seeing Michael Moore's new movie will cost you! Remember what Max Weber said when the idea of socialized medical care pulls at your heart-strings: "Once it is fully established, bureaucracy is among those social structures which are the hardest to destroy."

Matt Kibbe at Townhall.com: "To truly fix health care, we need to increase choice and competition, as well as reduce the insurance mandates and junk lawsuits that drive up costs."

A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money.
-- G. Gordon Liddy

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend
on the support of Paul.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Foreign aid might be defined as a transfer from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries.
-- Douglas Casey (1992)

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
-- P.J. O'Rourke

Government is the great fiction, through which everybody
endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
-- Frederic Bastiat

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a
few short phrases:
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
-- Ronald Reagan (1986)

I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the Facts.
-- Will Rogers

If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free.
-- P.J. O'Rourke

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.
-- Pericles (430 B.C.)

No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the
legislature is in session.
-- Mark Twain (1866)

Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member
of Congress. But I repeat myself.
-- Mark Twain

Talk is cheap-except when Congress does it. The government
is like a baby's alimentary canal, with a happy appetite at one end and no responsibility at the other.
-- Ronald Reagan

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings.The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill

The only difference between a tax man and a taxidermist is that the taxidermist leaves the skin.
Mark Twain

We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
Winston Churchill

What this country needs are more unemployed politicians.
-- Edward Langley

Well, Ben I'd say no one reacted to the cost of the medicine because medicine these days is outrageous across the board in America.

The real question becomes, why are you on the heart medication in the first place. What got you there? Why?

OK boys and girls, what have we learned today.

A man named Michael Moore made a film about the lack of effective health care in the United States of America.
Unfortunately, according to many people, Mr. Moore has a pretty bad reputation of twisting things and exaggerating things for dramatic effect. He is also seen as a left wing liberal. So that automatically puts him in a bad light in some peoples eyes. Other people think he is the greatest thing since Jesus.

So what happened?
It caused a big argument among people in this country. Then some folks from other countries that really know nothing about Americans except what they see on TV decided to jump in and tell the Americans how Americans are. This started another argument.

Boy, This film sure did start a lot of arguments didn't it?

So what have we learned from this?

I think we learned that sometimes it takes a butthead like Mr. Moore to wake folks up, to make them aware that there is a serious problem. It's just too bad someone with a little more credibility didn't make the movie.

What good has come of it you ask?

Well, It got a lot of folks angry, got them thinking. When that happens something usually comes of it.
It pointed out that there are many people in America that are in trouble and need some help.
People are dieing because they cannot get proper medical care because of money.
What does money have to do with health care you ask?
Well, when the health care system is dependent on making a profit it stands to reason that healthcare will be determined by profit rather than need.
Profit will be put ahead of care.
The film also showed us that there might be a better way. Many other country's have tax based health care systems. They are not all perfect but they do seem to work fairly well. Everyone gets medical care regardless of their social or economic status. And the things they have to pay for, like medicines, are much cheaper than they are in America.
How can they afford to have taxes pay for healthcare?
Well they pay more for Taxes than Americans, and they don't give much to anyone outside their country. They use their tax money to take care of their citizens first. America thinks it has to help the world, save the other countries from themselves. We have a bad habit of sticking our nose into other peoples problems. Unfortunately many of those countries don't like us because of that. They'll take our money but they still don't like us. They get into a bad spot they'll ask us to help but when it's done they still won't like us.

How can their medicine be cheaper? Is it inferior to the medicine in America?
Well, that's a bit of a mystery. It seems the other countries buy their medicines from the same companies that Americans buy their medicines from but they get them much cheaper.
Why?
I dunno. I still haven't figured that one out.
According to one person their country buys the medicine from the American companies at a fraction of the cost of what the Americans have to pay. No one seems to know why that is.
That seems unfair.
Yes, it does, doesnt it.
Does anyone know the answer to that?
Apparently not. But the people in those other countries think we are pretty stupid for letting that happen. And I agree. We should have an investigation into that.

What else have we learned?
Well I hope we have learned to be a little more tolerant of other peoples views on things.
We have learned that there appear to be three classes of people in America.
The very poor or disabled. They get free health care through various health programs.
The wealthy or well employed. They have insurance through their work.
The folks in the middle. They have low paying jobs and have no insurance. Might be self employed and either cannot get insurance or simple can't afford it.

How many folks don't have healthcare available to them is not clear. But, it is a pretty large group of people. And to be honest even a few would be to many.

So where do we go from here? Can't we get congress or the President to do something?

That's hard to say. Most of the people in charge of this country are backed by the very same people that run the health care system. So there is a conflict of interest at play. And a lot of money at stake.

If that is true then how will we be able to fix the problem?

That's a really good question.

Ben, I am registered Republican who voted for Ralph Nader in the last election. If the word conservative means to conserve, I'm in that camp. I want to conserve energy, the rain forest, the Indian tiger that is being hunted to extinction. I want American to use natural resources efficiently and so I hate over packaging and waste. I scold my boys when they go to a buffet and leave too much on their plate because their eyes were bigger than their stomach.
When Newt Gingrich lead the republican revolution that Clinton took credit for, the deficit went to zero. I think George Bush is a terrible example of a Republican president. Tonight on a 60 minutes repeat, the Comptroller of the United States warned of the coming economic crisis that no one in elected office has the courage to talk about. The crisis is the rising cost of health care. The solution is not going to be found in a new health care bureaucracy -so I am with you on that one. We have to rethink all of heath care. For me, I am 61 and have never had a heart condition or any life style related health problem because I find my heath care in fitness. I have been running since I was 15-years-old. If I don't get to run, I get cranky.

Our new Universal health care must involve government education and a militant crack down on the pushers in our society- the high fructose corn slurp pimps that are giving our grandkids diabetes. What ever happened to the Presidents council on fitness? In 1964 we had a standard of fitness that meant 18 year old boys should be able to do 51 push ups in one minute. Do 100 sit ups, 12 pull ups and run a mile in 6 min 03 seconds.

So just because I and millions of others agree with Michael Moore doesn't automatically make us some kind of liberal socialist. This problem is way beyond politics. For me, I just have a sad gut feeling that we have all failed to take care of each other. When I go to open mic on Monday night and see so many folks who have missing teeth because they can't afford the several thousand dollars it takes to fix their teeth, I am saddened. Having a daughter with a disability and knowing she will always need to be cared for is the constant reminder in my life that I have a responsibility to care for others while I am able. I may end up like one of the folks in Moore's film, as a 79-year-old janitor asking the question, "What ever happened to the Golden years". But like him I will be grateful to still be able to walk and work.

Ben

I didn't say much about your original Birth Hospital bill because I was trying to put it in Perspective and really did not have a clue how to do that.
Then I thought about it. I thought I'd see what I could find out

Year 2006**Mercy's hospital charges for a normal child birth average $1,624, compared to UW Hospital's $3,650 or Beloit's $1,759. I don't know how this compares to the rest of the country.

Averaging the cost that's about a 11 fold increase for child birth.

A new 1957 corvette was about $3500. A 2007 corvette about $50,000. For about a 14 fold increase.

Now I know that's apple and oranges but I looked at some other items as well. I found most things were above an 11 fold increase.

That is why I didn't respond right away. I was trying to think back to the 50's and what things cost compared to today. Seems like having a baby has not kept up with the rest of the stuff.
I guess it's a good thing we ain't cars.

Bill,

I've gotta get to bed, which is why I'll only respond to you, quickly.

How did you come up with NINE-fold? The total bill was $83.75. Increase that ten fold and it's only $831, still well below the lowest figure you quoted. Plus, are your figures all inclusive, or merely for the hospital stay.

Further, my Mother was in for 4 overnights, so don't forget to factor that into the equation.

Using your highest figure (and I'll bet you...you can name the price of the wager...it's only for one night, if that) here's how it works out:

$3,650 vs $84, which brings it to 43&1/2 fold...and again that lower figure is for 4 nights, the anesthesiologists, et al. I've a hunch you're looking at an overnighter at most, so you then need to multiple by 4, and you'll arrive at a 174 fold increase, meaning (medically speaking) what cost $1 in 1953 costs $174 now, and that dwarfs your Vette analogy.

Ben, I didn't weigh in on this subject specifically, because I don't shoot my mouth off about subjects that are outside my realm of expertise.{music} However , since the exchanges in this thread were becoming increasingly heated {brought on mostly by your belligerent tone} I thought a little humor was in order. Sorry to ruffle your feathers {Doesn't take MUCH apparently!} Nothing personal. Bob. {AKA Brian's lap-dog!}

Hey Sam. Conservatives have never ever conserved anything except profits, power and wealth. Most of the world problems were, and still are, caused by their greed and lack of humanity. If it was not for some liberals and socialists which seems to be dirty words with most Americans we would still have slavery and send young boys down mines and up chimneys to their deaths.
The USA is one of the world leaders in promoting waste and having no concern for conservation or carbon footprint reduction. The US politicians continually refuse to enter into any agreement to reduce emissions. Up until very recently they did not accept that there was even a global warming problem in the first place.
You are right Bush is an ass. Umfortunately at this moment he speaks for all Americans. The problems are all political and can only be resolved by a political change. Sadly most politicians are just lackies in the back pockets of big business so this is unlikely.

Sam...you are a Republican I'd be proud to buy a cold one!

Too many of us are polarized along often imaginary lines of disagreement..too may of us say "Well..if he or she stands for this then they MUST also stand for that"

I'm a liberal dem who is also a fiscal conservative..

Nice to hear some good straight talk, young man!

Bob Young

Micheal Moore is an egomaniacal schmuck..as are most really good filmakers.
He's right more than he's wrong in my opinion, and I think bill
Robinson was getting at what I believe..that it's got alot of people taking a closer look and talking about this mess..

And, that's a good thing

I don't know a lot about Canadian medical care,just what I read and experience,I know even less about other countries medical programs.When things are free for the end user there is bound to be a percentage of abuse,by the user and by the provider(doctors).In Canada they found some doctors were pushing through more patients then they should,some they never treated,just added their names so they would get paid for seeing them.I believe the government brought in a program where they will only be paid for a certain number of patients per day,plus they would do spot checks with patients to see if they were actually treated by said doctor on said day.I believe some doctors were caught cheating and heavily fined.

Some people that have nothing better to do will make a practice of visiting doctors for trivial reasons,most people will not abuse the system but a small percentage will.They even kicked around the idea of charging a small fee to discourage this abuse, but as of now,that has not happened.

Most Canadians love our system(not 100% of course,every system has holes that can be plugged)where we don't have to worry about paying exorbitant medical expenses to the point of losing our homes to pay for it.Our taxes are a bit high,but we still manage to live,maybe not as high on the hog as some,but we live well. Stress brings on a lot of sickness,and stress about becoming sick can cause the very sickness that we fear.Paying for that sickness(treatment) will only bring on more stress,do you see where I am going with this.

If you are happy with your system of making shareholders of insurance companies,drug companies and hospitals rich,don't change it.If you are not happy with it,try to change it,good luck.

OOPs
Ben
I apologize. I quickly added the numbers and included the total.
So it doubled. So it would be an 18 fold increase.
I used an average to try to be fair. I am sure some hospitals in your case would have been higher and some might be lower.

I doubt the cost I showed did not include at least one night and yes Hospital stays are much shorter these days. For many reasons. One being they have learned the quicker you are out of the hospital the less likely you are to get sick from the hospital, LOL.

In any case I wasn't trying to make light of it only trying to point out that everything has gotten ridiculously expensive over the years.

Ben,
That was a great post quoting all those folks.
Samuel, you should re-register as an Independent.
Bob, play some good music.
Big Jim, you've got it all wrong about ??Consevatives?? Re-read Ben's post up above. Any big company has to turn a profit to stay in business AND pay all the employees. Some of the nicest people I heve ever met were really rich people of the business world. Of course there are some a-holes too. They don't last in business very long.

Bob Young, I still like ya! Yikes.

So, let's see if I have this right, guitar Bob. You thought a little levity was in order, in order to diffuse the volatile situation, and the best way to achieve that would be to take pot shots (Somebody needs prozac) at the very guy you think shoots his mouth off and has his feathers easily ruffled.

Yeah, bro, I think I see where you're coming from. I'll bet it was a joyous day when you were inducted into MENSA.
Ben
PS Do you know the meaning of the greek word..."mindyourownbusiness?"

Ray My grandfather used to say "One man's profit is another man's loss." very profound, think about it. I look at it this way, imagine a huge cake to be divided amongst everybody. If someone is greedy and takes more than their fair share then everybody else has to lose out. It is this greed worldwide that has caused all the problems. Do not kid yourself, big business take no prisoners, they tell huge lies and will steal from anybody if they can get away with it. The fact that they smile while doing it is irrelevant. Anybody who thinks different is either very gullable or very stupid, maybe a bit of both.

How can their medicine be cheaper? Is it inferior to the medicine in America?
Well, that's a bit of a mystery. It seems the other countries buy their medicines from the same companies that Americans buy their medicines from but they get them much cheaper.
Why?
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ya Bill, GREAT question...this has been a great discussion

I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Healthcare is broken...Throwing money at it will NOT fix it...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Great quote Ben
Once it is fully established, bureaucracy is among those social structures which are the hardest to destroy."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Big Jim
I look at it this way, imagine a huge cake to be divided amongst everybody. If someone is greedy and takes more than their fair share then everybody else has to lose out.

Sorry, way too simplistic
Your way in reality---There is a big cake factory, let's call it Big G. Big G collects the flour butter and cocoa from everyone in return for services that make your cake experience better. Then after the cake is baked, Big G decides who is gonna eat the cake and who isn't. Hungry cake wanters start to lobby Big G and offer them money on the side if they give them a BIG piece of the cake. NO ONE thinks they got their fair share of the cake and they start arguing and calling each other names. They then spend loads of money to take Big to court over it's unfairness. Big G has to sell all of it's ingredients in order to hire lawyers to fight the lawsuits, including some people getting ill from the fight. Big G finally has no money left OR ingredients and NO ONE gets any cake. (I'm sure I could do this better with more thought, but I don't have time, you get the idea) BIG GOVERNMENT doesn't work. To quote you:Anybody who thinks different is either very gullable or very stupid, maybe a bit of both.

I think that we are in for a really bad run in this world, I think it's gonna last awhile, and I think it's time to batton down the hatches and fight for survival. No one believes it quite yet...Most Americans think their homes are still worth more than last year...Just wait until people that thought they had alot of equity in their homes start to see it slipping away...We are just at the tip of the iceberg. We need to all be tolerant of each other and try to help each other as much as possible. Consumer's drive 2/3 of the economy. The last five years alot of people have lived off of their home equity, refinacing and taking cash out. That party is over, and people haven't figured it out yet. The subprime mortgage problem and tighter credit guidelines is pulling MOST of the entry level
buyers out of the market. No one is buying those homes, so those people can't move up to a bigger house....AND the prices of those homes are SO ridiculous, no one can afford them anyway. Property taxes are increasing 25-50%. Gas is 3 somthing a gallon and going higher. Health costs are outrageous. Food is getting out of hand, see what $100 buys you at the grocery store lately?
And the government says the economy is good!!! Has people's income increased (even close) to the above? I think not...the two parties just point fingers at each other being the villain.
I am disgusted at the whole thing right now...and most people are using up all their energy just trying to survive and can't deal with any of this....and even if they wanted to, there is SO MUCH MISINFORMATION out there (just reread this post) that they wouldn't know the truth anyway. We're in trouble people.

Herbie (sorry to be depressing)

So the question is, if one of us were suddenly in charge.. and we could force all parties to do it our way (this is for idea purposes) what would we do to fix it? We've identified problems and issues and philosophies.. so how about we start offering some solutions. Rather than say "such and such would never allow that to happen" let's absolve ourselves of that part of the discussion long enough to get some ideas out there. Rather than shoot down someone's elses idea, offer on yourself. Add to someone elses. Steal the good parts of that and give your own.

Let's get back to the point of this topic from the start: How can we fix the problem so that people who need health care can get it, regardless of their current health, income level, race, religion, age, weight, political party or any other barrier real or perceived?

Brian

Hey Brian,

I just got back from a 3,000 mile tour and sat down to read this. Glad to see everything's normal.

What you are asking is not to "fix" health care...it's never worked to begin with so how do we fix it? To design a system that works, well that would be easy. First, you'd have to be a King. It won't work in a free society, too many people just don't take care of themselves. You'd have to be a King or Queen who could command that folks eat right and exercise. No smoking. No fried chicken. Everybody gets eight hours of sleep every night. No booze. No pot. No more than two cups of coffee a day. Put on that sunscreen and get out there and jog. And, when you get back, we'll give you a nice big glass of soy milk and some tofu pudding.

Then when everybody's doing what they can to take care of themselves you could set an age limit on care. Once people reach a ripe old age...say...56, then the King no longer cares for them medically, but turns them over to the monks for hospice.

This way, everybody gets good care, everybody gets treated the same and we're all happy.

This is fun, next, I'm going to suggest ways to end war.

Mike

Mike,

Welcome back. Now how about sharing an idea to actually fix things? We know it's "possible" to give everyone health care because some countries do it. We know that comes with a lot problems for many others such as taxes and waiting lists.

Perhaps there's a way for the Government to only be involved on the catastrophic level, taking risk away from insurance companies in exchange for then insuring everyone? Would it be cheaper and less risky to innovation for something like that to happen?

I am not suggesting that IS the answer.. I am simply throwing something out there to start discussion. I don't need this to simply turn back into a screaming match between the left and the right viewpoints. How about a moratorium on why something WON'T work and instead, if you don't like a suggestion, the way you dispute it is to offer a better alternative.

Let's see how creative folks can be and who is the first to break the spirit of trying to find a solution versus basking in telling someone else they are wrong?

Brian

The beauty of your plan, Mike, is that everyone will commit suicide and the health care issues will go away

Sorry, Brian - I'm thinking....

Scott

Brian,

Well, in a way, that is my idea. I'd have a health initiative that focused on prevention before I even tried to address care. Maybe have a national health insurance that is offered to those who will voluntarily take responsibility for their health. If you want to eat poorly, overindulge and lead a sedentary life, then you'll need to depend on yourself to fix the mess, but if you can take care of your basic fitness, then the gov can deal with the rest.

Another idea would be to target certain health problems. For example, have a national heart health care program. Get your heart medicine and your procedures picked up with a small copay. Again, focus on prevention for those who opt into the program. As the program succeeds, then expand to other health problems.

But to simply socialize medicine the way other countries do would require that the majority of citizens agree that it should happen and then vote accordingly. I don't see that happening any time soon. The best we'll get is a hybrid compromise.

Again, answering your original question, "How can we fix the problem so that people who need health care can get it, regardless of their current health, income level, race, religion, age, weight, politiical party or any other barrier real or perceived?" I allow myself the device you offered: "if one of us were suddenly in charge.. and we could force all parties to do it our way" and would, respectfully, argue that that was what I did in my original post. I don't see any other solution yet, I'll sleep on it.

Mike

Mike,

I think having prevention as a platform is a solid foundation. How would you account for people like Type 1 diabetic who get it when they are young and healthy and who then are plagued by it the rest of their lives regardless of how healthy they lead their lives? I got diabetes when I was the healthiest I'll ever be.. playing college football, eating a regimented diet, working out many hours each day, not smoking or drinking or doing any type of drugs. Also, if you give folks a regimine, who would monitor that? Would the need for monitoring and the government oversight required for that be accounted for in your plan?

The reason I qualified the question the way I did was to avoid the immediate "The Republicans will never do that.. " or "the democrats will never do that" type of response we've already had on this post. So how do we free ourselves from that, but still work on dealing with ideas that fall into the realm of actual possibility?

As stated, there's already flawed plans that cover everybody for free. So what ideas do we have to improve on those programs or what different approaches can we use? Prevention is a great piece of it. What would happen in that scenario when the government realizes they've endorsed a plan that actually made everyone's healthy worse? What would happen when there was disagreement on what was the standard for various measurements of compliance? Anyone care to add to the idea?

Thanks for getting us off to a useful start Mike.

Brian

O.k Ben, I stand by my little joke, but this time I'm not kidding. Chill Bud! {I'm backing away from the thread now...Slooowly!}

Well Mike someone would have to volunteer to be King but if they screw up they'll be beheaded in the public square.

Real ideas? I can't make jokes? That's no fun. And I can't pick on anyone? Sheesh.

OK
First off I'd say we have to back up a few years and try to figure out when it all started going down the toilet.

I don't really remember how it was in the 50's. We weren't quite middle class at that time. But we were not poor either. I had my own car when I was sixteen. A 1954 Chevy convertible. I went to school and worked after school. I bought the car and paid for my own insurance. My folks owned their own home(with a mortgage) and we did OK. I didn't get new shoes til the old ones wore out. I even remember my first pair of real Levis genes.
I don't think we had to worry about going to the doctor or hospital. It never seemed to be an issue. I know my dad had insurance. He was in the Pipefitters Union.
When I got home from the Army I went to work doing what my dad did. I was a pipefitter, Union, and had health insurance.
I've had several careers since then. Chicago Fire Paramedic, Carpenter, Owned my own business. Etc.
Except for the time when I had my own business I always had health insurance.
So, I have had it pretty good I guess.

So, when did things start going down the toilet.
If we can figure that out we might be able to see a cause and effect.
I expect it may take some of the older folks to chime in because I think things have been screwed up for a while. The younger folks might not have seen the better times.

When did folks start having trouble getting jobs with insurance?

When did the uninsured persons problem begin?

I'm sure the insurance premiums didn't go through the roof overnight. It had to be a gradual increase.

There must be a time when this all started going screwy and there must have been some events that are connected to it.

If we can find that can we roll back the clock, that is, start doing whatever it was we were doing that worked?

And I'd still like to know how the other countries can buy the same drugs cheaper than us from the same Pharmaceutical companies. That just ain't right.

Hey Herbie.
You got that right about the Home Values. I am getting ready to put my house on the Market as soon as I get back from Nashville. I hope I can still get a good price for it. I have been hearing rumors that Values in some areas around here have dropped 10% this year already.
In light of what we feel is a major change in our economy and way of life we are hoping to get enough cash out of our place to pay cash for a new place. No mortgage to worry about.

And you are right about the Taxes. My summer real estate tax went up 100% this year.

I may not have much internet access for the next week. I am going to Nashville to start looking for a house.

Actually that was why I was asking the question which way people would prefer health care...

I'm with Mike on this, prevention first. Rooting out the cause of an ailment. And having a catastrophic system in place for things like surgery for accidents. No more prescribing drugs for colds and flues.

As for someone who develops a life long issue, again, I'm no doctor but I'd bet there was something that could have prevented it had it been figured out. A regimen based on poor information does not make it a good regimen. I'm not saying yours was poor Brian, but it's quite possible it wasn't the right regimen for you.

The one thing I find is that most people neglect is to listen to their body on how food works for them. Even worse is a lot of food today, isn't food anymore. It's so treated and processed, it's not healthy.

So make that two for prevention first.

You know what, Bob. If you could have managed to get a picture made at the place shown in the picture, but with yourself slightly bent over, and maybe ten steps farther in the background, then written what you did ("back away...slowly"), I'd have thought that was the coolest thing ever.

Ben

Ben,

Now that you've gotten your parting shot in to Bob, are you going to offer something productive? If not, please move along elsewhere.

Brian

You know what, Whitney....

First off, this was an effort at a TRUCE, friend. You are so one-sided you can't see anything BUT that side. Why didn't you reprimand Bob? Huh? He came at me first.

BUT, as i said, that was said to offer an olive branch with levity/

Maybe I need to explain it to you, BRIAN.

He said " {I'm backing away from the thread now...Slooowly!}"

I was simply saying how neat that would be if he could have had another photo taken of him backing out of the frame. Neat as in FUNNY, not him ...oh, this is ridiculous.

I wet you slide on your Price-match theory, and was very polite to what I "assume" was a real person, trying to vouch for you, so what are you yapping about.
Think you're the one who needs to lighten up.

Ben F Burton
PS Saw where you said you played college football. I played at the University of Alabama. Where did you play?

Ben,

Wow. The person you had to "assume" was real is my WIFE. She's been involved with JPF for the last 7 years as our projects director. Are you ACTUALLY suggesting she may not be real?

As for Bob.. I said nothing to him because he SAID he was leaving the post. That left YOU. I asked if you were going to add something worthwhile or move on as well. You're so paranoid that you think everything is always either ABOUT you (as you mistakenly thought about an earlier post of mine) or that someone is singling you out in some way.

So again, I will ask.. are you interested in being a positive part of this discussion or not? If not, please move on.

Brian

Not to derail this love-fest too far off the tracks here, but am I the only one that sees this discussion as a complete exercise in futility? Do you really think that when it comes time for the think tanks & decision makers to sit down and have their actual mind-blowing pow-wow about the future & direction of our country's health care, they're actually going to ask any of you what you came up with?

Get a grip. It won't happen. They might pretend to have a 'town meeting' about it, for a little appeasement. Make the masses think *we're* listening to them. That way they'll shut up when we push our decision through.

So anyway, I stepped out from my studies tonight, preparing to pick up some supplies here on the south side of Chi-town. Unfortunately, when I went to start my Jeep, I nearly flew through the roof. Somehow, during it's 3 week internment in this parking lot, the front of the muffler managed to separate itself from the rest of the tailpipe, causing a rather impressive roar to emanate from the vehicle upon turning the key. Scared the daylights right out of me, I tell ya.

So, as I'm leaving my Jeep in utter dis-belief, I'm approached by a very drugged up lady who could barely put a sentence together. She wanted some help but couldn't quite enunciate what for. Best I could tell she wanted a ride. She had an id she kept showing me - don't know what for. My vehicle was in no shape to be moving from it's locale. I needed to be moving on, b/c I had to figure out how to take care of my immediate needs at that moment.

Meanwhile, a couple nights ago, two classmates & I went into downtown to get some Giardanos pizza. Far as I'm concerned there's none better - just an outsider's opinion. Afterward, we moseyed our way through Millennium Park before heading back to the El. Not before being approached, however, by a rather resourceful man who was looking for donations for a supposed cause he was passionately supporting. Again, he had an id...and three dollars to go with it - apparently, someone had previously donated to the cause. He followed us around for awhile before he found another mark to target.

So, where am I going with all this baffoonery, you're asking? Great question, I say. This school I'm at is in a very interesting neighborhood. Extremely depressed, yet money is beginning to work it's way through. How will it affect these long time residents? Will there be an opportunity to gain from the 'improvements' being made? Or will they be pushed out to make way? I honestly don't know.

I couldn't help but notice the juxtaposition of the talents & resourcefulness both these people had stacked up against their extreme disconnected lot in life. My immediate reaction (inside) was "Wow! You could take that pursuasive power you just unleashed on me and really do something with it!!" But they can't. They don't know how. Don't have the tools, education, organized thought, maybe not the basic needs, even. Do they have a home? I don't know.

I also got the same kind of feeling as I was riding the El back to our dorm with so many people that night. Where are they all going? What is their home like?

So.......
Recently, I've seen discussion on this here futile exercise begin to turn in the direction of holding people to a higher standard for self maintenance, and many of you probably would peg me as being all over that. But, here we are, faced with a huge segment of our population that is so, so undereducated & incapable. Their basic needs aren't being met, let alone considering going out for a jog every other day & cutting back on carbs or fats or whatever the FDA is recommending this week. (Not to beat a dead horse, but after last weekend, I predict AlGore is going to unleash an edict from his Tennessee Coumpound for us all to quit breathing pretty soon, so all that carbon dioxide we're exhaling will stop drowning those poor polar bears.)

What to do??? Send in the Michael Moore brigade with their cameras & pre-staged international remedies? Get Hillary to strap on another pantsuit & tell us how to do be more like Canada? See if Rush can get us all the same fabulous discount he got on those mighty necessary painkillers? Hold another futile discussion on an independent musician board? What's the answer?

Actually, I think many of you are right in theory with the proactive healthcare idea. It is such a paradigm shift however. Not to say it couldn't happen. (Interestingly, some insurance companies have tried to work in that direction already.) Suddenly, we're all noticing cigarette smokers puffing their magic dragons on street corners, wherein it wasn't that long ago we were all enjoying our chicken-fried steaks with a side of second-hand smoke. If that can happen, who knows?

My motto lately as I work on this masters degree has been - just keep chipping away at it. This too shall pass. I think that's how the change will take place with healthcare - not all in one big WALLOP. Just keep chipping away at it.

So there, I think I actually got around to arriving at a point. See? I knew it could happen.

Back to the books!

Jeff

p.s. - btw Brian, how was The Police in Wrigleyville?

So what you're suggesting Jeff is that resistance is futile.. as are efforts to contemplate a solution?

I suggest that most good ideas come from outside the inner circle of decision makers. Those folks have skills.. to implement and manipulate and control. But new ideas are not part of their modus operandi. So.. we can continue to just wallow in helplessness and inaction while those in power use us all as pawns in their life of control.. or we can realize that we actually are capable of coming up with some creative approaches and we actually ARE capable and responsible to do something about it.. if we don't, we're simply cattle waiting to be milked or slaughtered or appeased until we die and are replaced by yet another generation even more helpless and apathetic than we were.

I'd rather realize that those in power are simply those of us who bother to act. If we do, and we're persistent... we become the ones in power. We become the ones who can implement and manipulate. Some of us will fall into the system like so many cogs.. others of us can make a positive difference.. still others will continue the evil that comes with the machine like progress forward.

Things are only hopeless when we give up hope. I haven't done it yet. Your smoking comment is a perfect example of what is possible. Imagine if we actually came up with a solution and then pushed it forward. Imagine how useless we are if we don't try.

Brian

Yeah, John Lennon Imagined "no religion too" & we're chipping away at that one pretty good.

Really tho, I'm probably just in a futile mindset at the moment, based on Comps coming up at the end of the week & rather than go to bed, get some rest &/or continue thumping the books, I'm up at 3 am trying to pull a complete thought together on a totally unrelated concept as to why I am here. HA!

Needless to say, Brian, I appreciate your unbridled optimism for what can be accomplished with this "community of over 40,000 Songwriters, Recording Artists, Music Publishers, Record Labels, Performing Arts Societies, Educational Institutions, Recording Studios and Engineers, Producers, Legal Profess onals, Publicists and Journalists, Publications, Music Manufacturers and Retailers and about every other type of member of the Music Industry."

Many of the braintrusts who gathered for the mudfest at Woodstock 40 years ago ended up putting on the very suits they so despised and dived headfirst into that bowl of soup called 'the system.' They didn't want to at the time, but they found that the only way they could support their greedy little lifestyle was to keep workin' it. Otherwise those ideals they were professing in the nude with that peacepipe they were passing around at Haight & Ashbury weren't going to pay those nasty ol' bills that began to collect on the ol' bureau in the dining room.

Man, I need to get back to work. These energy drinks mixed with all this pointless philosophizing is like scratching my ear with my big toe. It's possible, but why go there?

Get some sleep, bro.

Jeff

Well, there are a lot of ideological differences on here.
Both have a point, and the better solution is somewhere in between.
It is good to have a diologue, but there can never be a solution that can make everyone happy.
I sometimes say how bad the health care is, than I see all these goodies I have purchased that are not vital to my life.

The biggest problem that has stared out, at least where I live, is the cost of the ambulance.
There is a block on competition with ambulance services and costs 2,000 dollars for them to come.
Also, people may be treated in most cases in life or death situations.
But if someone gets cancer and can not pay it, the cancer can run it'[s course.
Yeah, they will help to keep the cancer victim alive a little longer and than bill their family after the horrible death.
To use an analogy, it is like the state taking an innocent person that has been falsely executed, and saying nonone has been falsely killed.
Of course, legally they have not, because the murderer can never be persued and the case can't be retrie.
Not that I don't want the known rapists and killers off this earth.
The point I am trying to make, is that everything with health and public safety issues runs off of little legalities and codes.

Maybe the best thing would be for people to go back to some of these native treatments and look for alternative prevention.
Make the health problem less likely.
And also not give so much into activists that look just one way with something and look into just what the mouthpieces are giving into.
It took a close relative that is a victim of a predetor to realize that whatever side you take, money talks and BS walks.
And the predator was in a mentor program and came from a nice family. The pro-death freaks actually gave the peds more credit because they can have a nice job and the poor are useless.
So having just one answer with crime is just as vague and foolhearty as having one type of system with health care.

It's a matter of what is workable, for whoever's situation.
I am pleased that there are posts like this to discuss important topics and I thank Brian.

Matt

Jeff,

The group of 42,000 won't solve anything. Problems are always solved by a small number of people who are passionate and relentless. A handful of motivated people will usually outperform thousands of apathetic ones.

We may have no new ideas come up here. This may not turn out to be the issue we can help folks with. But talking about ideas and raging against the machine should be a regular part of an artist's life I think.

You're sounding really cynical. I am sorry to see that. Hopefully when this work is done, the cynicism will disappear as well.

Brian

Oh!...THAT Bob!

When he said "guitar bob", I thought he meant me...

I'm sitting here thinking "What the heck did I say?"

Yeah.d..that guy Cushing is a damn troublemaker..lets's go over to his house and beat the hell out of him...(just kidding there, big guy)

Brian...some of this sounds like the "discussions" you and I used to get into...trouble is, I'm pretty much with you on this one..Damn!..I hate when that happens.

By the way..I dond't know much about the Canadian situation..but..I can quote several friends and one relative who live in Australia and are extrememly happy with the system there.
They run the gamut from a young man who had an entire hip replacement to a 70 year old retired priest who is a diabetic with many of the usual complications.
They pay minimal amounts for care and all are happy with the quality of service.

Our friend, Graham Henderson is a..how shall I say...a "mature" gentleman who lives in Western Australia.
Might be interesting to hear his views as well..

Play nice, kids and am looking forward to seeing many of you at Pineyfest in a few weeks..

And, Ben...try some friggin' decaf!

Bob Young

OK - I'll jump in with my ideas for fixes. Feel free to throw tomatoes.

My ideas are based upon a few opinions:

(1) Our system is not irreparably broken. If 50 million have no coverage, that means that between 80 and 85% of the population DOES have coverage. Does it need fixed? Sure. Does it need a catastrophic overhaul? Not in my opinion.

(2) EVERYONE needs checks (as in checks and balances) on them. This includes me, you, the family doctor of yours who can do no wrong, and the insurance companies. I've never seen an exception – including myself.

(3) Our health, and health insurance is partly (even mostly in the former case) our own responsibility. If I gamble that I don't have to buy flood insurance and my house is flooded, then I lost that gamble. I accept that there are many who simply cannot afford health insurance and I'll address that issue. I believe that there are at least as many who simply give it a lower priority than their car, their housing, etc. Their choice – their risk.

So, based on those opinions (which many may disagree with), I put forth the following ideas. I admit that I have not yet seen the movie. I also think there is an excellent chance that some of the things I suggest may already be being done. Well, I don’t admit to being a health expert. Hell, I don't even admit to being a good musician....

(1) The AMA ought to put forward requirements that every doctor do some amount of pro-bono work.

(2) Every public school child should be given a free physical once per year. See (1) on how to pay for this. It should be required unless the child's parents refuse or opt to use their own physician. Basically, this is to catch impending problems in uninsured children.

Doctors already have checks on them – the threats of malpractice and the denied claims of insurance companies keep them honest. I actually think these checks are too severe – malpractice has gotten out of hand and the insurance companies appear to have no checks on them at all. The amount of money that doctors have to pay for malpractice insurance is staggering. I can't remember amounts but I’ve read articles that gave costs and it really was staggering.

(3) We should limit “pain and suffering” awards in malpractice lawsuits. Fix the problem as best we can? Sure. Compensate the victim for lost lifetime earnings? Absolutely! But awarding multi-millions for pain and suffering seems out of control to me. I'm on weak ground here, I admit, since I have no clear examples but can remember reading them.

(4) The insurance companies absolutely need checks on them. At the very minimum their rates of approval/rejection, broken down in different claim categories, should be published. Ideally, they would be audited by an independent commission.

(5) I would like to see a certification required for the people in the insurance industry who approve/reject claims. Are they doctors? I guess some are because I've seen one testify before congress. But are all of them? If not, there should be a medical-based degree requirement, less stringent than medical school, of course.

(6) Legislation should be introduced to make routine, dastardly, or capricious denial of claims a criminal act. And these laws should be enforced.

No matter what, and for any number of reasons, some people are going to fall through the cracks. They may have lost their health insurance or not be able to afford it (even giving it a priority) and have a health crisis.

(7) I would propose that there be a nationwide advocacy group or commission that people in this situation could go to. If their argument is compelling, the advocates would cover the costs of the required medical procedures. Insurance companies should be required to contribute to the pot of money to cover the procedures. The advocacy group would work with the applicants to make sure that the applicants themselves paid for part of the procedures. This could be a small fraction of the total cost - paid for over time. But some "buy in" from the applicants is essential, in my opinion....

Anyway, some ideas from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.....

Scott

OK, I got home last night from a great time at open mic at "the Rig" in southwest Fort Worth and when I got home my wife had rented "Who killed the electric car". I love alternative transportation and I could digress right into another topic too easily but I will try to stay on point -what are some solutions to our health care crisis?

One of the principles in that documentary talked about the government’s role in forcing the auto industry to build energy efficient cars. What he said got me to thinking about how that applies to health care. He said the auto industry fought seat belts, the catalytic converter and mileage targets- they fought tooth and nail with millions and for years. But eventually they complied.

So lets start with something not too ambitious because health care is a big problem with many facuets. Lets start with stricter government control of our food industry- it is killing millions. Why do I have to feel like I need a degree in forensic science just to read the label on a bottle of fruit juice? I will not buy a bottle of anything with the words “high fructose corn syrup” but still the manufactures are allowed to put in big letters things like “100% fruit juice” when it is not. What about MSG? It's everywhere in processed food but the human body can't "process it". We should put warnings on big Mac’s and French fries that come with every sandwich and container. Make these soulless corporate execs pay through the teeth for the damage they do. We can use Law to force them to create healthy food. We can even tell them the exact font size to use on the label that says, "This stuff can kill you!"

Some folks think that it is tyranny if we tell big companies what to do, but the fact is, the big companies are the new Tyrants and they are telling us what to wear, where to go and what to eat! How many times do we have to learn that a corporation is DESIGNED to only serve itself and its shareholders? It is soulless- it would dump it’s own sick mother on skid row in a nightgown. We should make a law that any company larger than $100 million annual revenue, be subject to strict public interest rules. In short when a company gets that large, it must be forced by law to serve the public interest. It is government acting responsibly and adhering to the principles we hold dear- Government of the people, by the people and for the people. Restricting a corporation is not in any way a restriction of human liberty because there is no human being in a corporation to be set free - it is a soulless robot that we cower to because it seems to be a powerful Person.

So my first real suggestion is that we use the Law to force very large food manufactures to tell the truth about what they are creating and then tax and punish them for creating unhealthy foods. Tax McDonalds for over packaging their food too. They probably spend as much for the paper, cardboard and plastic as they do the food and it taste about the same.

Scott got me to thinking. I remember talking to a young doctor when I first moved to Texas who told me that after all those years in medical school, he only practiced 1 year. He said the malpractice insurance cost so much he couldn't make it. He got into the medical equipment sales because the profit margin was very high, he could make more money than he could being a general physician.

So we might have a shortage of doctors and a surplus of lawyers. And there is a big segment of the health care industry that is profiting out of proportion to their contribution to health, including equipment manufactures and drug companies. Drug companies have an interesting potential conflict of interest. If you look at the industry from a strictly business POV, a CEO’s ideal dream drug would be a drug that would create or prolong a disease indefinitely while providing the “remedy” as a proprietary pill that would keep the disease at bay. You say, “Never! -that would be Evil”. Remember, corporations are Soulless. If you think that the idea hasn’t crossed the minds of a CEO when he was looking around for a fix on a bad business cycle, think again. It happened in the tobacco industry. Scientists were hired to find ways to hook the smoker.

This is gonna be a potporri of thoughts about 'preventive medicine' and/or insurance. After years of working with adults on preventive medicine----I gave up and decided you gotta start when people are very young or the battle is so tough.

I like the ideas about schools doing more on public health. That's an idea. Maybe they could do finger stick cholesterol checks and include the President's Fitness curriculum---they are finding now that many youth have signs of preventable cardiovascular disease. Sadly, last I heard, school nurses spent most of their day dispensing ritalin or whatever the latest pill is.

Once I organized a FREE health fair for a small church. I made a few phone calls and found a company who leased medical equipment to allow us to use the cholesterol and diabetic equipment for free since it was a public service. Also, had a connection at the local gym where an exercise physiologist came out and took body mass index measurements for free. (I let him advertise for his employer).

At another health awareness seminar I planned we uplinked a live call in show in the church via satellite (way back in the 90's no less) where those who attended could phone in their medical questions and speak to one of several physicians, nutritionists, or nurses (Called Hearbeat 96 maybe or Healthbeat 96) It's been so long now I've forgotten. This idea came after my church sent me to Washington DC to a Health and Nutrition Congress. I heard researchers from all around the globe. Doctors from Italy shared studies on olive oil and those comparing different nuts (which are now known to REDUCE BAD cholesterol).

I recall John's Hopkin's University was doing a program back then where parish nurses were employed by a church. The parish nurse's job was to maintain health records on the members and organize regular checkups. A wellness center was started in the participating churches where the members could go for checkups/screenings.

The piloted program showed a large reduction in morbidity in the local community. It was a large metropolitan area though I can't remember which city now. I've not kept up through the years either. But, I can go through my files and find it possibly. Also, the names of the key people who were responsible for the program. They were working with politicians to incorporate similar programs all over the country since it had worked so well. (link to an example of this type program--- http://www.wmhs.com/services/parish_nursing.cfm

http://www.adventistnursingconnection.org/site/1/docs/PN_News0406-Nelson.pdf

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4090/is_200506/ai_n14718790

I also published a monthly collumn in the church newsletter called Sound Bites on Nutrition. A group of us ladies held a few cooking seminars. I put together a puppet team that performed live, a show that discouraged the use of drugs.

All these types of programs take little money from the volunteer---but lot's of time. Public schools in one area of Alabama have access to a place called the Check Center through the Children's Hospital. I linked our little church school up with the Body Trek tractor trailer. It's a fabulous interactive learning center on wheels. They will only move the thing to a school within Jefferson county provided there are 300 students to attend. We were able to join a public elementary school on a day they were out. I'd waited about 5 plus years to get the opportunity for our church school students to get involved.

One school in New York (this was ten years ago at least) had a chef who radically changed the ideas that schools had to serve unhealthy foods or else the kids wouldn't eat. He demonstrated how with kids they have to get to know their veggies and whole grain breads before they will eat them. When they refused the foods for the first week, he just kept bringing them back around. Eventually, after they became familiar to the kids eyes, they accepted them and began to eat them.

Our local public school system does not allow any soda pop or sugary drinks (with the first ingredient as sugar or high fructose corn syrup) on campus period. I was thrilled with that ruling. Finally! Something besides Ritalin to calm the children down!!!

When I was a kid I had no health insurance. No one in my family did. My stepDad was self-employed as a roofing contractor who didn't make a lot of money. Even then it was seasonal. We just never went to the doctor. We did all go to church school though. And I'm trying to remember if we ever got hurt or needed a doctor. Hmmmm. Oh yes, my step sister, she had to have surgery when she was about 12. Nothing that could have been prevented. Unless, something was in the well water we were drinking--LOL.

My Mother had one miscarriage and she was almost turned away from one emergency room. Then my stepDad yelled at them. They took her and he paid the bill. It was kinda scarey back then. Insurance had just come into vogue actually. And my stepDad predicted back then what would become of it. He ended up being right. He read a lot and he had an uncanny ability to see beyond the present. He loved studying history.

He lived to be 79 and that was many years after he fell from a roof rendering him parapalegic. He was a veteran, so his medical needs were taken care of for the most part. My Mother, never goes to the doctor except the dentist. And she is close to 70 now. She has no health problems other than when she falls down the stairs or such. She's always been kinda clumsy. She didn't break anything though until she went to work as a certified teacher (as opposed to uncertified---she got her degree around age 50) and got health insurance (after I was in college).

Well, I've turned a minute into 20 or so---so I'll finish.

I've noticed that now most of the fast food restaurants are selling salads, and 100% juice for kids. Even sliced apples or fruit cups as an alternative to french fries in kid's meals. However, Burger King still insists on not being willing to sell a veggie burger (the BK veggie) with a kid's meal. I don't get that. But, recently, I went through and they did agree to give us a kid's toy with the adult BK Veggie since they wouldn't sell me a veggie kid's meal. (Her reason was--the computer won't let me!)

As far as type I diabetes (formerly called juvenile diabetes). When I went through school they taught us that nothing was known to prevent that. I would never suggest that people with such unpreventable diseases be non-eligible for insurance. But, the way our system works here, I can see how those kids could end up in a quandry with all the pre-existing disease exclusions that most insurance companies impose. That wouldn't seem right to me.

Later,
Vanessa