JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum The Most Important Film In American History? Maybe

Hi Folks,

I was able to see the new movie SiCKO, which is Michael Moore's documentary on the Health Industry in the US. I've had my own problems with Moore's inserting political propaganda into some of his documentaries, but I don't care what your political bent is, this film may be the seed to finally revolutionize the most egregiously wrong thing in the US today.

As someone whose health suffered a great deal for a decade without health insurance (and who was turned down by everyone because of my various health conditions and only after getting married was able to get life saving medical care) I understand the terror of being sick and not having the money and resources to do anything about it, even though treatments and medications exist to save your life. This film actually brought me to tears, something that may be a first ever for a film in my life. It's far more tragic, in my opinion, than 911 or Katrina or even the Iraq war and terrorism. Those things are caused by evil people we can't control or mother nature. But the health care crises in the US is completely artificially caused by nothing more than rampant greed where people are not only allowed to die for profits, they are pushed along the way towards death for profits. If you watch this film and aren't angry at every single politician, from BOTH parties, who allows this to happen in the US, you've either been brainwashed beyond repair or have no soul.

Here's a link to it on Google video. I don't know how long it will be on line, but I know that Michael Moore has previously endorsed having movies and content free on the web, so perhaps he's allowing it to stay there. If you can get to a theater, go there and buy a ticket and see this film. If you can't get to a theater or it isn't playing near you, or you can't get to the movie until later, click this link and spend 2 hours coming to a horrifying realization that our US Society has lost part of it's soul on this issue. If you DO watch it.. consider buying a ticket on line to support the fact that someone finally is telling it like it is.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5198862711051405294&hl=en

Brian

Hi Folks,

It seems the film is finally gone. Hope that you all go out to theaters to see it. It's truly amazing!

Brian

Brian:

I'm sorry. This sick puppy (Michael Moore) has lost all credibility with me. He has a penchant for stretching the truth way beyond the bounds of normal politics. In fact, this guy lies so much and so often, he actually begins to believe them.

I'd certainly like to see some changes to the U.S. Healthcare and Insurance Industries... not to mention our legal system. For starters, I'd like to see a system where a common woman or man (not some rich lawyer) can run for office without being in the pocket of some PAC or Media Organization... provided that he/she can meet the required qualifications for the office. In fact, I'm ready to see our election process change where the politicians actually have to spend more time working the jobs for which they were elected than they do running for office. The time for campaigns should be limited to a maximum of 60 days.

Our system is still the best in the world but it needs to change so we can actually see some progress in Government for the benefit of the American People.

Okay, I'll get off my soap-box and get back to Michael Moore. He's gonna have to make some major changes before I'm ready to restore his credibility.

Thanks for letting us know. I hope it reaches a higher level of believability than the rest of his garbage-can journalism.

All my best,

Dave Rice

Jurasic Park was truly amazing.
But it was still fiction.

Interestingly enough CNN did some fact checking on Sicko. Guess what Dave...

Mr. Moore's numbers add up this time.

So while you might not like his brand of documentary style, he doesn't always lie.

Remember there are three sides or more to anything and how it could be looked at. Your side, my side, and then there's the truth. I'm betting if you made a documentary you couldn't possibly keep your view point out of it either.

Jody

p.s. no I'm not a fan of Michael Moore, but there is certainly one thing he does very well. He gets people to think and talk.

I saw Moore on one of the late night shows.
Surprisingly, he rapped against Hillary Care too.

The way I look at it is that America is the richest country on earth.
With all the money that is spent, there should be money for everyones health care and that would'nt have to mean turning to a socialist system.
The same thing with finding out who a criminal is in a rape or murder case.
There should be money for the medical care and investigation.
But unfortunately, in both events, we live in the only country in the Western world where the dangerous and corrupt have more clout than the law abiding citizen.
Unless, of course, you can bankroll them.

Matt

I really wish there was a way for politics to not be a factor here. But I guess there is no way that could happen.
Michael Moore is a liberal. No! He is a far left wing liberal. he is also anti republican. I guess that makes him a Dem.

Well here is what I would propose to Mr Moore.
Do a film about NAFTA. You know, that little Bill that Mr Clinton signed into Law in 1994. Republicans passed the bill but Clinton could have vetoed it.

The Bill that rewarded investors and corporations for moving our factories to Mexico.

Why do I bring this up in a Health Care thread?
Well I believe it is directly related.

When those factories started leaving in 1994 so did the health insurance that millions of Americans counted on.
Those factories provided the jobs that provided the health insurance benefits.

Nafta also had an effect on Mexicos agriculture industry. Millions of Mexican farm workers were put out of work. So what did they do. Nearly 10% of Mexicos citizens left. They came here. Legally or illegally. Do I blame them. Nope, they are just tryimg to survive like the rest of us.

NAFTA is a disaster and if that isn't enough. Mr Bush signed a bill that adds more South American countries to the agreement.

They say that unemployment numbers are down. Jobs are up.
I've talked to some of the area kids that are out of High School.
They get jobs in the local fast food industry or maybe the super market. But, they only hire them as Part time workers. So they don't qualify for health insurance. They have to be full time for those benefits.
A lot of jobs don't offer health insurance or they offer low cost HMO's that are just about worthless.

You want to fix our health care system problems?
It only took about ten years for all those good paying jobs that offered good insurance to be lost.
Find a way to get those factories back here. Restore our manufacturing industry and the good jobs and the insurance will be there.
It only took ten years to cause this mess. We can correct it in ten years if we try.

AMEN! to that!

I have always felt we live in the greatest country in the world.
And Our Freedom is our greatest treasure! it also causes our biggest sorrows.
See we have the freedom to screw each other over and hurt each other in ways that are diabolical. Worse then any enemy we could face. Nothing is worse than being sold out,mislead and even destroyed by those who you trust love & respect.

Howdy Dave! Care to elaborate on a lie by Michael Moore? How has he lied? Just wondering.

Howdy Bill!

[b]Michael Moore is a liberal. No! He is a far left wing liberal. he is also anti republican. I guess that makes him a Dem.[/quote]

Not sure what this has to do with anything here.

FWIW, haha, I have some liberal in me, for sure. And in 2007, I am very most definitely tending to be anti-republican. But I'm not a dem. What am I?

Concerned? A man without a country? Not sure anymore.

I am waiting to see which party nominates someone worth voting for. And perhaps if the parties don't nominate some of the heavy hitter candidates (Giuliani, Clinton, Thompson, Gore will make things interesting) being on the outside looking in plus Bloomburg getting into the race as an independent, we could have a 4 way race this time around. Then maybe one of them will actually come up with a PLAN to deal with the problems rather than simply a policy of pointing out the other parties flaws.

Brian

Hi Gang:

Jody, if I were to make a documentary (Heaven forbid) I would probably be capable of walking water. You are correct in believing that I would most likely try to get my view of the subject matter across.

Duke, sorry I insulted your best friend, Michael. (LOL) How are you getting along? I've lost track of so many of our old group at the "zone" and I really miss all the great conversations we had. You are right... none of the political stuff has anything to do with JPF. I am here to attempt to learn. (Hope it's not too late!)

Brian, I'm looking forward to seeing the results of Moore's latest work and having the opportunity to view his documentary for myself.

All my best,

Dave Rice

I don't think that anyone can proove Micheal Moore to be a liar by typing words on a music forum. He has a history of making films that dispute the theory or words of the six o'clock news about controversial events of recent times (Columbine, 911 etc.)which makes him a controversial figure. He is giving us his theory of events and it should be taken with a grain of salt. Otherwise than you are only drinking his koolaid. The fact that the messenger is controversial should only raise suspicion as to the validity of his work. I won't call him a liar but I do wonder why he filmed the interview with a senator on the street asking if he would send a member of his family to Iraq. It turned out that the senator had a nephew over there. Moore did not know, he jumped to conclusions. Why won't he do an interview on FOX news? Conservatives grant interviews to CNN and MSNBC all of the time. He found a subject now that hits a nerve in everyone liberal and conservative. This movie will make him more millions. It may very well bring awareness to a problem that must be dealt with. Does he offer a solution in the movie? Or does he have you leaving the theater thinking that the problem is because of Bush, Cheney, and Halliburtin? When Ken Burns produces a documentary about health care maybe I'll watch. But not Micheal Moore.

I think this is a very important movie. Not because every minute detail is unbiased, it isn't. He's clearly exposing problems with the insurance industry and the effect it has on our health care system in the US. The point I think is most important is that although, as Bill stated in detail, most of the US citizens have great health care, it's also clear that a smaller segment either has no health care of any kind, or inadequate care. That should be the case. If we're letting 1 person die because of our system and nothing else, then our system is broken. He gives a lot of diverse examples of horror stories. I am sure he cherry picked the worst to show us. But those of us with long term health issues know the truth behind many of those stories because we've lived them. Linda is a pharmacist and she sees all these problems daily involving insurance companies.

I think folks should see this film and THEN come here and agree or disagree. He does show the systems in Canada and the UK and France. Do those systems also have problems? Sure. But the one thing they do right is not leave anyone out. Our system ALWAYS leaves someone out and that's inexcusable. All US Human beings deserve to have health care. They deserve to have the medicines they need to stay alive in a country as wealthy as ours. Let's spend a little of that pork barrel money or oil company subsidies or farm subsidies or whatever bogus fat cat project we're wasting money on and make sure that no one EVER falls through the cracks again. It doesn't have the be the SAME system as any of those other countries. But I think they each have ideas within them that make some sense and seem to be working pretty decently. We already pay MORE (even with insurance) than any other country in the world, and though we certainly have specialists that are the best, for 98% of the health issues most people face, we're way behind. And how can we rank so low in Infant Mortality? I mean seriously.. in the US with all our resources.. how can that be allowed to happen? And our life expectancy is significantly lower than those countries (as well as many others). Why is that? We're the only Western country without some form of universal health care. If there's only a tiny number of people suffering, then it won't cost that much to take care of them right? And if the problem is more widespread than that.. then we need to fix it.

Brian

Well,
If we could only fix the problem. Everyone agrees there is problems. But what to do? I posted some time ago about The Great Society of Lyndon Johnson and socialized medicine that got started before most of you were around. We have had the system for over 40 years now. You would think the problem would be fixed by now.

There was no government system before that. Doesn't seem like we have made much progress does it? Inflation has been a problem from time to time and helped raise prices of which also shows up in the medical profession.

Malpractice insurance has also been a problem because of laws that allow outragious settlements and so the high price of medical care. Mostly invented by people, I might add. It makes people want to cover themselves if sued so the high cost of health care, and consquently the high cost of Health Insurance.

The country was founded on many freedoms of which has slipped badly over the decades and now we are seeing the results. All done with the best of intentions.

I have also posted that we may be headed right back to the 1930's. None of us experenced that but may or our children or grandchildren may. In other words the whole system may bust. And it all happened with the best of intentions.

There have been people who have raised their dismay at what is happening but they have usually been summarly dismissed.

The fact is that this item will just have to run it's course because no one will touch it with a ten foot pole.

One example is the Social Security problem. President Bush tried to fix the problem.. You see how far he got. Mulitiply that by 10. That's how many problems won't get fixed including the medical profession.

I am reminded of the Aesop Fable of the Mice needing to fix the problem of the cat. Everyone agreed that they needed to put a Bell on the Cat, but who could they get to do it?

One side thinks you should be able to keep more of your money and handle your own business.

The other side thinks you should send more of your money to the government and they will take care of you.

We have been moving closer to socialisim every since FDR started Social Security. And now we have SICKO! Michael Moore is probably more right than he knows.

Brian, I was disappointed in Moore's previous film FAHRENHEIT 911 due to its cooked statistics, inaccuracies, and general style.

But, based on your recommendation, I'm going to see SICKO. Sounds like we can learn something from it.

Fahrenheit 911 exposed the long-term relationship of the Bush family and the bin Laden and other Saudi families. The 1972 document of Bush's failure to pass his National Guard physical, with the redacted name of James R(eynolds) Bath, who later became bin Laden's uncle's Texas money manager goes right to the heart of it; as Deep Throat said, "Follow the money." Every fact in the documentary is cited as to source on www.MichaelMoore.com The facts came from newspapers and television interviews right out of the mouths of the people who did things, in Congressional testimony, TV interviews, newspapers and magazines, government documents, or government investigators. If there's a lie there you should specify what it is because it is hidden amongst so much truth. It shows the victims of the misleadership of America, Americans and Iraqis, common people who could grieve together, their losses different only by the nuances of culture.

I'm not a liberal. When Lt. Colonel Oliver North and company were using the apparatus of the Executive Branch of the US government trafficking 'liberal' amounts of cocaine, planeloads and shiploads, thousands of tons of it, from the basement of the Reagan-Bush White House, he was identified by the Drug Enforcement Agency in newspapers and on television news as a drug trafficker. I was against that 'liberal' use of the Executive Branch of US government. He called for files to defend himself, arguing that he could show he was operating under Executive Order. The files were denied on National Security grounds. It got his case thrown out of court and he went free. Cocaine poisoned lives all over America, enriched criminal organizations in every community which continue to thrive today, a quarter of a century later.

The "Alito Veto" was discovered, wherein now justice of the Supreme Court of the United States taught Reagan-Bush how to take a 'liberal' interpretation of the Constitution of the United States by 'signing statements' that render the Legislative Branch, null and void, irrelevant. The laws they pass are secretly deleted by this 'liberal' interpretation of the Constitution. The representatives of we, the people, of the United States, did not know, so they couldn't tell us representative Constitutional democracy was canceled by this 'liberal' interpretation. We now live in a Monarchy, an Executive totalitarian state. I oppose that 'liberal' interpretation of the Constitution, wanting democracy 'conserved,' but that doesn't make me a 'conservative,' does it?

It is not 'Republicans' who are your problem. Republicans elected many Democrats in the last election to oppose the gang of violent extremists who have seized control of the Republican party at the national level and many state and community levels. They have terrorized Republicans for years, threatening them with financial destruction and political ruin if they didn't toe the party line. They have spied on them, documenting their indiscretions, blackmailing, opening mail, tapping phones, bugging offices, homes, cars, and, if they were honest men and women with nothing to blackmail them with, setting up criminal deals to entrap them, or worse. If all else fails, you can make a man sick, or his family, so he has more important things to worry about than opposing your tyranny. Look how many leave office sick or to spend more time with their families. Or fall out of the sky in airplanes, go to ski and hit a tree, car wrecks, etc. The numbers defy the odds.

Republicans are taking their party back from the neo-cons and theo-cons, the pseudo-Christians and fascists, the gangsters and their collaborators, the violent extremists who enjoy such 'liberal' power to exploit the desires and demands of the people of the world. They are 'conservative' of their own profits. They don't pay taxes. They are conservative of their children. They don't get used in an undeclared war based on the treason of lies, false claims, propaganda, and cooked intelligence. Their military adventure in Iraq, not a declared war, where 2 million people have been made refugees to stop a dictator armed and empowered by the Reagan-Bush administration, is a crime against humanity, and the American people are as much the victims as any other. Soldiers stand or drive and 70% of those killed and wounded never see the enemy that attacks them. It is an impossible situation and no amount of 'surge' can change it. It is guerrilla war, where any individual or small group can strike the easily identifiable soldier, while maintaining invisibility among the terrorized population.

In Afghanistan they have made it safe for opium producers to increase the amount of land they planted in poppies by 60% in 2005-2006. In 2006 they were able to grow, process and transport enough opium to supply 90% of the 2006 world demand. I guess we're too busy protecting the pipeline construction that was at the heart of things. Read Paul Sperry's "Crude Politics: How Bush and His Oil Cronies Highjacked the War On Terror." Sen. Sam Brownback plays prominently there.

They didn't have a problem with the 7 million Afghan refugees the conflict of US and Russian foreign policy created when they decided to have a war in their country. The Russians rolled across heavy duty bridges built by the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, and probably by some construction companies whose names you would know.

And they didn't have a problem with the totalitarian Taliban, trained by them in Pakistan, and well-armed so they could overpower the people who fought the Russians until they left, and seize control of Kabul. They had no problem with their horrific and primitive predation on the Afghan people, until, not until, the Taliban behavior kept them from being able to get more World Bank and International Monetary Fund and Asian Development Bank loans to build a pipeline. There's an oilfield in Kazhakstan or Uzbekistan, bordering Afghanistan. That's what they're after, and across Afghanistan is the best route out. Then the Taliban had to go. The Unocal oil representative, Hamid Karzai, became the President. I'm told the FBI website says it can't connect bin Laden to the 9/11/2001 attacks. But 7 million refugees, half the population, and the other half, have suffered for his mere presence within their borders.

Michael Moore's Sicko documentary is said to be the "G-rated" version by people who actually work in the medical and pharmaceutical and insurance industries. One doctor is shown testifying to Congress, saying it is actually "a confession" that, as an employee of an insurance company she denied a man a life-saving operation, to save the company a million dollars, as I recall, and in effect caused his death. The head of California nurses is in the documentary. See it. See what she says. Then decide.

The medical business, hospitals, doctors, insurance, pharmaceutical companies, are so profitable it is beyond your comprehension. They don't pay taxes. They can afford to get out of paying taxes. The documentary tells you how many lobbyists these companies have to see each of your congressional representatives and senators; a ratio of 3 or 4 to 1. You may not be able to see your elected representatives because they're always out to lunch with these guys. He or she may not be able to represent you because he or she represents these industries. And defense contractors. And food companies, and energy companies, like Enron.

The only reason you would defend the subjects of Moore's documentary would be because you don't know what's being done to you. You will. It happens to us all eventually. It has to happen to us personally before we realize it's happening all around us. Home foreclosures are at an all time high, as are personal bankruptcies. As many as half of these are the result of getting sick, getting no help from the faux medical industry, losing their jobs, losing their insurance, and being unable to stay financially viable and in their homes. Isn't that the American Dream? Home ownership? Financial security? Health security? Security from the threat of madmen amongst us?

And Fox News? That's not news. That's opinion. It has been from the start. It's faux news, propaganda, a proven Nazi technique of starting out with seemingly rational commentary on facts no one disagrees with, but reaching a point where they leap from logical progression to emotion, either tragic sadness for some victim, and then to anger, or directly to anger. The listener, viewer, led to this point without being put on guard, takes the leap with them without seeking further data. They give you a target for your anger, someone to blame, to hate, ways to dehumanize them, and logical reasons why you can blame them, and hate them, and still think well of yourself. What it does to you happens without your being aware of it. Soon you're displaying the very behaviors you deplore, inflicting pain and suffering on those you love, total strangers, and yourself. As the song says, "What you're fighting for, my friend, soon becomes What You're Fighting Against."

See Sicko. See Fahrenheit 911. Don't bury your head in the sand and ignore it. If you're so sure it's wrong, you'll be able to say so with surety after you've seen it. Beware the attempt to talk while it's on. You'll miss important facts that may save your life, the life of someone you love. Your country, your people, need you to earn your freedom and security by paying what Thomas Jefferson called the "price of freedom," "eternal vigilance."

I saw Sicko tonight, and left the theater wanting to leave the United States. Really. This is not my America anymore. The America I knew was compassionate and kind. Yes, we still have some of that, but if even half of Sicko is true (and why would the personal stories and first-person testimony in it be made up?) then what is wrong with this country is far, far worse than I dreamed. Its not just health care, either. Think about how business operates....the embrace of mediocrity, the fraud, the bribes, the CEOs in prison. The CONGRESSMEN is prison. Think about how your workplace operates. The games people play. How...nobody cares. Now we learn companies are consciously, deliberately, willing to let people die for the sake of their profit.

This country has gotten MEAN. I see it, hear it, every day. We are turning into Argentina with haves and have-nots, and people are getting mean. And that scares me more than any particular of X doing Y.

I feel so ashamed to say I don't want to live in this country anymore...but that's how I feel right now.

Maybe there are more and better gigs in Europe, anyway. I'll be following Brian's European tour to see what kind of music scene he finds.

Jeff

Oh, I forgot to mention, George Bush has been talking about Social Security since 1975, yet he has no plan, no idea, nothing to offer to 'fix' it. What his handlers are after is to enable companies to quit contributing their share. By giving it to you to invest and lose in the gamble that is the stock market they would be enabled to stop contributing. It is another assault on social assistance to the American people, their tax dollars coming back to help them when they need it. In the stock market crash of 1929 everyone was in the market, the man at the shoeshine bench, the hotdog vendor, the barmaid, the bootleggers. They had investment houses specifically for housewives where the mores of the time did not permit women to mix in the smoke-filled rooms of mens' business doings. When the crash came it hit hard because it hit everybody. Such dangers would ensue again under the Bush-handlers' plan. How would people decide what stocks to invest in? The professionals looked at stock and said it was the best stuff on the market and people tied up their cash in it. The companies were Enron, GlobalCrossings, and others that went belly up. If the pros can't tell the difference, how can housewives and hotdog vendors?
And never trust the government to run your health care system. Blue Cross and Blue Shield in California paid a $200 million dollar fine for defrauding Medicare or Medicaid. I wonder what fraction of what they stole that $200m was? It seems another big company in Kentucky got caught too. A dentist I know got caught. I hear heart doctor Bill Frist of Tennessee, a congressman, got caught. A guy on 60-Minutes said he ran a fraudulent company that didn't provide medical services but billed for them and got paid. They 'shotgunned', billing for all kinds of services they didn't deliver. Some got kicked back. Some got paid. They billed again and again for what the blind government paid.
Michael Moore was on some news show and quoted an American living in France: "The reason the French government does things for its people, pays for their kids to go to college, provides affordable day care, medical care, etc., is because the government is afraid of the people. In the US, the people are afraid of the government."
We have reason to fear the government. It's got the power and a fascist philosophy among many of those who run it. We're unprepared to defend ourselves. Thomas Jefferson, again, saw the danger: "A patriot must always be prepared to defend his country, against its government."

Gary, Enjoy the Kool-aid brother.

Jeff, I truly hope that you are true to some country, eventually it will not be the US. Have fun out there in your own little world. Ben

You are welcome to come back any time you are ready.

Remember,Rome was never defeated,they just rotted from corruption from within,will this happen to the USA?

It was Daniel Patrick Monohan, Democratic Senator from New York, now deceased, that first recoginized the plight of Social Security. At least that is what seems to be the facts.

The problem with Social Security is there are less and less workers to maintain the system because of the Baby Boomers retiring very soon and a severe drain on the money to pay out the benefits.

That is a fact and has nothing to do with our current president or a few before him. It is simply the law of supply and demand.

Of course some people think there is a conspiracy behind every bush, so to speak. If it were only that easy.

There are plenty of good people out there in every walk of life that sometimes get slammed for no good reason.

My ancesters were here before the Revolution and so far I don't plan to move to another country.

You just have to sort thru all the confusion from time to time.

Some of you may remember the Black Panther Activst Elridge Cleaver. After many years on the run he returned to the United States. He said he would rather be in jail in the United States than a free man in any other country in the world.

Ah, yes. President Bush does have a plan to fix Social Security. Privatize it. I do think that is what is going to happen, as soon as it runs out of money.

Wow, the sky is falling here at JPF.

America has had major challenges before, we're facing them now, and we shall surely face more in the future. There seem to be some problems that continue to grow, like our need for foreign oil or the corruption of our health care system. Unfortunately we seem to close our eyes to problems until they get real bad. And even more unfortunately, real bad means something different to the politicians than it means to us.

We can go one of two ways:
1. Give up
2. Learn the facts and use our voting power to change things

Let's not act all powerless and such. Every one of us can and should vote. Our country has problems and it always has and always will. We always have the ability to vote a person, or a party for that matter, out of office. My grandfather took shrapnel from a Japanese zero so that I could sit here 65 years later expressing my opinions freely online. Yes, we need to talk about our problems and vote for the people who are most likely to change them. But for folks who want to give up on America and leave, I'd say... there's the door... and because this is America that door is always open.

That's what I believe is happening. World history is fascinating. There are many parallels between what happened to Rome and what is happening to us. History DOES repeat itself. I recommend we all get right with our Maker. This planet is about to be rebuilt but not before it goes through the fire.

I'm not innocent either. I've wasted resources that could have helped someone less fortunate. And I'm sorry for that. My church is in prayer for the next several days. The final day of special prayer will end on July 7, 2007. That's 07-07-07 on the calendar. I'm going to be attending the nightly prayer meetings until then. This problem is beyond any human mind. We're in deep trouble. But, I believe God cares. The war between good and evil is about to be waged like we've never seen it. It's gonna get ugly. But, God will prevail. And he will forgive the sincere in heart. Choose Him while there is still time---that's what I recommend. This is above and beyond what any mortal man can solve.

But, don't lose heart. God is able to do more than we can ask or think. Let's read our Bibles and pray. God can change hearts. He's the only One who can. But, yes, like Richard says, we can do our part and vote on the issues (after we educate ourselves and become informed on the whole issue). That's the tough part. There's so much confusion. But I'm not giving up.

Vanessa

PS---I saw most of the film on Google right after I read about it on Brian's blog Friday---before it was removed. Thanks Brian.

I agree.. I see amazing parellels to the US and the fall of Rome. I can't find many honest people in either party at either level. Until we have a viable 3rd party, of any ilk, that can get at least 5% of the vote every election cycle, the 2 party system will continue to rape us all. They are brilliant in setting us all up to fight with each other (i.e. 49.5% on one side, 49.5% on the other) instead of looking at the evil within the party we follow. I think I am in that tiny 1% truly in the middle of the two parties and openly stating that they're BOTH equally the problem.

We all likely agree on about 80% of the US issues. But we're never allowed to fix and improve that 80%. Instead we must fight over the 10% on each extreme.

I am glad you saw the movie Jeff. You HAVE to see the movie to even understand this discussion. I also felt like the Farenheit movies was flawed deeply. I also feel like the Al Gore film was total crap. But this issue, even coming from a left wing guy like Moore transcends the 2 party bullshit and should wake us all up. I sure hope it does.

Brian

Ben, by failing to be a studious American, paying attention to what goes on around you, you're being fed the koolaid too, drinking it apparently without even knowing it, even feeding it yourself to your friends and family. Ignorance may be bliss but when it comes for you it will be too late to start studying. I've studied for the last quarter of a century and learned not to trust any of them, including you. In fact you are the weakest link. What makes you think you're immune? You're an amateur, ignorant, just what they like. They'll get you and your family because you think you don't need to protect yourself. You'll fail to protect yourself, your family, and the country you think you're defending with your feeble attempt to insult me. You're part of the problem, not the solution. Your country needs you and you're playing at being a smartass as if that's all you can do. Well, reality's not for everyone. Perhaps your destruction will be less painful for you if you stay ignorant. Let Michael Moore and Al Gore and Bono worry about it. Maybe they can save your country and you can just live in it, ignorant, idle, a rider, not a driver, not a shoulder to help bear the burden. Maybe not. It won't matter that you lived, or died. Or, you could begin to study, educating yourself, and come to the aid of your fellow man, be a factor in the human race, instead of a statistic. It's a choice only you can make.

The principle of capitalism is to exploit the desires and demands of others, taking a reasonable profit for your service. That's a very successful model most of the time. But then the greed factor changes the equation. It doesn't matter what economic model it's in; communist greed or socialist greed or dictatorship greed is greed and they end up wanting to steal more than they earn. A wise native American adage is that the frog does not drink up the pond in which he lives. Some capitalists have moved to the point where they exploit their consumers to the point of destroying them. They're indifferent to the demise of their customer. It's a mindset as old as man, modified by civilization, but ever ready to re-emerge as a mode of function in society. Sometimes it's an individual. Other times it's a group. Sometimes it's a government that misleads whole societies to such madness. Mussolini said, "Fascism could be called 'corporatism' because it is the collusion of companies and government." Does that sound familiar?

Alcohol kills 250,000 of its customers each year. See the Centers for Disease Control website. www.stopalcoholabuse.com is showing commercials where a 9 year old is attending an alcoholics anonymous meeting, saying that in another 7 years she'll be an alcoholic. Just business? Or is alcohol dope, like any other dope, and will make you just as stupid and kill you just as dead? They have to replace the customers they lose or they're out of business. They're after you and yours.

Tobacco 435,000 each year, year after year. Terrorism is amateurish compared to tobacco for kill-yield. They could buy tobacco stock and lobby congress to keep targeting children, hooking them, killing them in about 20 years. Women started smoking in greater numbers during and after WWII. It took about 20 years for them to develop cancers in epidemic numbers. Illegal drugs about 25,000 a year. Pharmaceuticals, taken as prescribed, kill thousands. Abused, thousands more. Doctors' mistakes are the #5 cause of death in America.

The companies don't care. They want your money and are willing to kill you to get it. The pharmaceutical companies supplied 1.5 million Oxycontin pills through one clinic in my area of a few hundred thousand people. This Class 3 narcotic, where the doctor gives you a copy of the prescription, keeps one for his records, and sends one to the Drug Enforcement Agency, flows into communities, turning people into prostitutes and thieves, and no entity stands between them and the predatory companies making the money at the top of the food chain. Self-defense is your only defense. Studious Americans may be able to serve their country. Ignorant ones will find out too late what they should have been doing for themselves, and their country, and humanity.

Post deleted by ben willis

"Pharmaceuticals, taken as prescribed, kill thousands. Abused, thousands more. The companies don't care. They want your money and are willing to kill you to get it."

Perhaps you might find this enlighting as well...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...in_article_id=382716&in_page_id=1774

soon they'll come up with a pill for feeling like a lemming trapped with all the other lemmings, racing towards the cliff edge...

I don't know how this morphed into a discussion about Social Security, but since it has let me tell ya a little story.

You want to know why Social Security is in such trouble?

There's two types of SS; retirement and disability.

There's this fellow;
Early twenties, gets married, has one kid gets divorced.
Has a relationship with another girl has one kid. they part.
He gets married again has another kid. gets divorced.
Has another relationship. has another kid. they part

Now he is in his Thirties. He gets married again to a lady on Social Security Disability. She has two kids and gets about $1100 a month. They have two more kids together.

He now has 6 kids that are his own.

He worked construction as a laborer and also did house painting.
He had a medical problem that left him with some problems. But, he could work.

The guy applied for and got Social Security Disability.

His total monthly check? $2500 per month.
He got $1250 and each of the kids split the other $1250
Since two of the kids live with him he got their check.
So he is married and has 4 kids at home. Between him and his wife they got $1250+$1100+$416= $2558 per month. $30,696 per year. Tax free.
Since both were disabled they and the kids got free health care.

I worked 46 years and when I applied for Social Security Retirement I got less than half of what this person got who had less than 10 years paying into SS.

I guess he had a REALLY good lawyer.

I think I am in that tiny 1% truly in the middle of the two parties and openly stating that they're BOTH equally the problem.
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I am right there with you Brian and I have been saying that for years. It doesn't really matter who gets elected, the system poisons them.


Think people are passionate about issues on this thread??? LOL

That's sad Bill. The fact is we all have to individually take responsibility for our own behavior. That guy knows what he is doing is wrong. And all the folks who've ever cheated the system will eventually get what they dished out. The old adage, "You reap what you sow." is true. But, our legal system should be weeding this garbage out. However, the judge(s) are too busy suing the dry cleaners for outrageous, frivolous reasons.

Justice is dying in the street like the old prophet said.

Vanessa

Herbie
That 1% may be bigger than you think.

I have been a die hard republican all my life but this last ten years has left me in a real quandary. I am confused beyond repair as to how to vote any more.
I truly can see no redeeming qualities in any of the People we have to choose from to represent us.

I watched Michael Moore on CNN Larry King last night and for the first time actually thought he was sincere in what he had to say. I haven't seen the film yet, don't know if I will. I just don't like the way he leaves out "the rest of the story". It is easy to manipulate sound bytes to make an argument.

As an example the Guantanamo Bay stunt just makes me sigh.
Prisoners of war are mandated by law and the Geneva Convention to receive good care. Just as are criminals behind bars. And they do receive excellent free medical care. Our own ACLU makes sure of it. If he has a problem with that take it up with the ACLU and the liberal trial lawyers that protect the bad guys.

Bill, I watched a PBS special where Michael Moore was confronted about that very issue. He said he agreed that we should offer the best care to the refugees and those in the prisons. He was trying to make a point that the first responders (the volunteering citizens--not just the goevernment employed firefighters) should receive the same kind of care. Interesting point.

Just to be clear
I do not think the Gitmo issue should in any way detract from the sad fact that the first responder volunteers are not getting the help they need. I think it is pathetic.
It is pathetic that anyone in this country should not have the best medical care available to them. No matter the circumstances. Whether they can pay for it or not. Money should not even enter into the discussion.

I wish I knew how to make that happen.
I think I'll go mow the lawn and think on it.

And that's the entire point of the movie Bill. After all of the above.. that's the sad fact that remains. If prisoners get mandated free health care, those who risked, and in reality have given their lives (since many have life ending illnesses) should at least have adequate care while they are dying. Our country is a disgrace for letting them die alone and without care. And we are a disgrace for letting ANYONE else die when their lives could be saved by a medical procedure or even extended by one. And all medication should be free. Period. Only a small amount of medications can be "abused" and used for recreation when not needed. Heavily regulate/control that and let all the rest to be free and available. Why would ANYONE be denied medicine they need? Until we make sure that never happens again in our country, we'll be a third rate fraud.

Brian

For the stuff you've been saying on why you wouldn't go see the movie... You've just hit on the very point the movie makes. Welcome to the side you didn't want to be on.

Jody

I'll give you one solution on the political end if anybody will listen. The power of who holds office is with us the voters. Until Congress tackles some of our tough issues, simply vote out the incumbents. Each and every election year. No matter how hard it is for you to vote against someone you like. Do not vote party line, do not vote ideology, do not vote on how much you like the person, do not vote on if this person got perks for your district. Instead, look at Congress as a whole and ask, "Have they solved any tough problems?". Like health care. If not, then why do you want the same guy/gals in there? This new Congress has already failed, as they had a tough issue to solve (immigration reform), and they failed to do anything because of politics. Vote 'em out.

I know how hard that is. I have the pleasure of having two of the best people in Congress in my districts, Senator Lugar, and Congressman Mike Pence. Lugar of course is very distinguished, and he has a long track record of actually getting useful things done. I love the fact he has taken on Bush and called him on the complete incompetence that is the Iraq War. Lugar has been shunned by the White House, even though he is a moderate, thoughtful, and successful Republican. Pence has thoroughly and thoughtfully answered my questions. He didn't give me some crappy canned answer, but specifics. I respect him greatly for that, and I like some of the things he is trying to do.

But you know what, nether of these guys is getting my vote, because Congress as a whole is not doing the things that need to be done. They are failing...vote 'em out...

Brian,

I found this link for a briefing with Senator Kuehl.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1147728738212352727

OK,
Let's say the movie is fairly accurate even with things that are over-hyped and exaggerated. The thing all of you should realize is people voted for these things. People kept the representives in office that gave you the system that you now so degenerate. If you want to blame anyone it is yourself not so much but past voters that are now reaping what they have sown.

Everyone had freedom of choice, no one twisted their arm to vote a certain way.

I have posted before the time when a young Naval Officer said to me, Well Lyndon Johnson is President now, with a sneer on his face, we will never have to worry about our welfare again. He knew a whole lot more about it at the time than I did.

Sorry, I voted for Goldwater. It will be some time before things change much, and then you will hear more gripes of, We need to fix these problems. As the old saying goes, Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Hey everett re your quote

"Remember,Rome was never defeated,they just rotted from corruption from within,will this happen to the USA?"

It's started already.


Re those who think America is the best country in the world
Compared to what?

Compared to England. {Sorry, couldn't resist!}

Is it realistic to compare America with failing Rome? I mean Nero only fiddled for 1 night while Rome burned but Bush whacked his manzanita for 5 freakin days while New Orleans drowned.

The other thing to keep in mind is that while Rome decayed for several centuries, it was the Visigoths that finally marched into Rome and sacked it. The Visigoths were private mercenaries hired by Rome to protect it. Something to remember if the discussion of Haliburton and Blackwater ever comes up.

But on the main topic, I plan to see the movie. Hopefully it will knock terrorism out of the spotlight. If healthcare becomes a big topic of discussion, then and only then will politicians take a stand on it.

The next time a doctor tells you or a loved one that he has bad news, he will be looking at a medical chart, not a plane heading for the building. And when he talks about 'cells', it will be cancer cells not terrorist splinter cells.

No offense Jody but
Why didn't you use the entire quote?
This is exactly why I will probably not go see the movie.
You, like Michael Moore, take one thing I said (a sound byte) and manipulate it to fit your agenda. But of course you will deny that just as Michael Moore does.

The fact that I agree everyone (except people in this country illegally) should have health care available to them in no way negates my other statements. I have my own reasons for believing our health care system is in trouble and it has very little to do with insurance or Pharmaceutical companies or corporate greed. Especially "greedy hospitals", Most of which are non profit. Although I will not disagree they are part of it.

Damn I wish it was legal for me to tell you some of the stuff I know. Confidentiality , you know.

Since all of the discussion started I have been doing some research. Unfortunately I haven't been able to learn much.
Much is being said about France and their free health care system.
What I am trying to find out is this. How do they do it.

Where do the get their drugs and where do they get their equipment.
Do they prescribe the latest (and hopefully best and safest) drugs?
Do they use the latest technology?
Do they have High Tech Pharmaceutical labs developing new drugs and techniques.
On what basis does the World Health organization rank them.
Best care?
Free care?
What percentage of their GNP goes to health care?

What is it that they are doing that we are not that allows them to offer free health care.
Anyone have a link to any of this?

EDIT

Ok I found a little. I thought it was free. Maybe the grass over there isn't as green as we thought. if I have read and understood this you pay 20% of your GROSS income. plus you buy a supplemental policy. Lets see. If you make $50,000 (oops)a year gross that is $10,000 a year for health insurance? and you still need supplemental and have a copay?
Am I reading this right? It also says you have to be a legal resident. I wonder what that means?
But it is still better than we have. Doesn't answer all the questions but it helps.
http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-health/

Complementary health insurance
A fundamental principle of healthcare funding in France is the element of personal contribution so the state does not cover all a person’s medical charges. To make up the difference between what the state pays and the cost of treatment, most French residents take out an insurance policy to cover the difference (complement). This is called a police complémentaire or mutuelle.

Over the past few years, government health reforms have shifted some of the burden of paying for healthcare onto these complementary insurers, with a resulting increase in premiums. This trend is almost certain to continue as the Government continues to wrestle with the health budget deficit, which means your choice of provider is very important.

There are two immediate problems in making a choice.

Firstly there are well over 1,000 providers throughout France, although not all will be available to everyone. Nevertheless, the number on offer is bewildering.

Secondly there is the issue of transparency/ignorance. Insurance in France is a well-regulated business but that does not mean it is transparent and certainly not in the field of complementary health insurance.

Providers use all sorts of criteria in applying premium rates. But not all use the same criteria. So if you have no idea of the criteria that can be applied then you are at a disadvantage.

Some insurers will issue a table of premiums but many do not. What they will do is give you the benefits and an individual quote based on your personal details.

All very professional but that premium may have an in-built loading of which you are completely ignorant. For example, premiums will usually be higher if you live in the big cities, particularly Paris. But the converse is not necessarily true. If you live in a remote rural area some insurers will load your premium because the cost of services as ambulances and doctors/nurses home visits will be more expensive. (In addition to the set tarif home visits attract a charge per kilometre that in turn varies depending on the geography of the commmune).

None taken. I was going to use just the last sentence. I will thank you for attacking me. One of my favorite things in the world is when someone has a lot to say about something they haven't seen or experienced first hand. Without having seen the movie, there is no basis to claim I took it out of context in relation to the movie. But let me requote the whole thing...
Bill, you're right it shouldn't. I'll say it again as I've seen the movie, that quote is making the same point as the movie. If there is a need to argue that any further, go see the movie then pass judgement.

Wishing to talk about things, then expressing confidentiality? C'mon, with all that infinite wisdom, run for office and repair it. As is described in the constitution, if one has the knowledge and power to do something, then it is their duty to do something about it. Don't wish. Do something.

Equating good health care with drugs is an insult. From what I understand a lot of the health care in other parts of the world is based on preventative procedures. One does not take drugs to prevent things. The concept of 'take-this-pill-for-what-ails-you' is an American notion. That drug concept is about patching the symptom, rather than rooting out the cause. It's completely backwards. The best benefit to western medicine is when one needs a life saving surgery or if one were to ever break a bone.

I'm one of those people without health insurance. I'd be royally screwed if it became a law that it was required to have. Not because of a pre-existing condition, but rather because it's ridiculously overpriced and I very very rarely ever go see a doc. Outside of the AMA and the false sense of take-a-drug security, there are forms of health care that are based on nature and preventative or reactive healing. I've got first hand and second hand contact with some forms of it, it works. When ever I hear or see someone whom I believe it will help, I tell them. Often I'm viewed as being out of my mind for suggesting that something so simple could work, especially if it's not approved by the AMA. In light of some recent discussions here, I've suggested it to two people here at the JPF boards in the past week. At some point in the past I've even asked Brian to look into it for his conditions.

I must be doing something right as my recent physical can attest to. I have zero diseases. My blood pressure is quite low. My cholesterol levels, especially the bad version, is so low that the doctor exclaimed it's the lowest she'd ever seen. Then she mentioned I'm a model of health. Thus I'm under the belief that my theory and experience about the stuff I take must be true. Not only for me, but for the people I've seen use it as well.

The saddest thing is that pharmaceuticals are the ones that get to define what is to be a disease. Why? Because that's how they make it illegal for a natural remedy, that roots out the cause, to be a cure when it isn't a drug. Those companies determine the disease so that they can make their drug to patch your disease, even if it's not really a disease. Anyone remember heartburn? It's now Acid Reflux Disease, thus it's not legal to say that a tablespoon of vinegar will cure your problem. You can only have a drug as a cure for Acid Reflux. Does anyone else see how silly that is?

Jody

p.s. - since there seems to be a lively discussion on one's health, how many people here actually know what their blood type is? I didn't know mine until two weeks ago. But I do now. I have AB+. It's the rarest blood type on the planet. The fortunate thing is I can safely receive blood from any blood type in a transfusion. Unfortunately my blood type is only able to donate to other AB people. Speak up if you do or don't know your blood type. So far, I've probably asked about 100 people in the past two weeks. Only 2 people out of 100 have known their blood type, that's pretty sad.

Can you believe I'm not getting involved in this?

I must really be getting old.....

We're gonna go see the movie in a couple of days...most of my fag, left wing, limp wristed, tree hugging old hippy friends agree that the cuban bit was a bit overboard....but...Moore is no the firsat movie maker to go overboard while making a point..

He's an egomaniac....but....sit appears the film raises clear issues...I've got my problems and I'm deeply involved in the healthcare system..I'm on disability as well....

My situation is better than alot of folks....

I'm lucky, I guess....

I would remind everyone that presidents don't do this stuff alone....
I think Bush is a dope..I'll be glad when we're done with him...but...the dems went along with alot of this stuff and did their share of screwing up while Clinton was in charge..so....plenty of blame top go around....

I paid 3.75$ per gallon for gas in Chicago this morning...last night I p[aid $2.80 in Wisconsin, about 75 miles away...can anybody explain that to me..?

Maybe the same reason I can buy medicine in Canada for about half of what it costs here...

Who's getting all that money?

Bob

Hey Bob Re your quote.

"Compared to England. {Sorry, couldn't resist!} "

You could be right cause I'm Scottish.


If you have to be told repeatedly that something is the best (like in TV adverts) then it probably isn't.
America is probably the best country in the world so long as you have money. If you don't then do not get sick.

To be fair we have a thing called the NHS (National Health Service) it offers free treatment to everybody regardless of income or class or religion or anything else. It is not perfect but you do not die if you cannot afford the medicine or insurance payments like in the states.

Jim,

Since you LIVE there, you should tell us more about the realities of your system. Let's get it straight from someone who actually knows, first hand, what they are talking about? Let's also get some of our Canadian friends in on the conversation. We don't have any French regulars here, but if someone pops in, let's hear from them.

Moore's point at the end of the movie is why aren't we cherry picking all the best ideas from everyplace else? The answer is power and greed and corruption. If our society actually wanted to fix the problem rather than feed the machine and greed of those in power we'd simply steal all the best ideas and take care of our folks. But we continue not to.

So let's hear from folks in OTHER countries about the good and bad that works in their countries. Maybe, since we have a lot of different voices and opinions here, we can prove that people who disagree can still come up with a solution to a problem. If we can't do it here, then we know why the politicians and corporations can't.

Brian