JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum American Idol Songwriting Contest

FYI, American Idol is having a songwriting contest for the song used in the finale. The deadline is April 17th (I think). Check out the details at http://songwriter.americanidol.com/

Linda Kraemer
Orange County ChapterCoordinator

Already a discussion about it on this General Board.

Looks like if you enter, your song becomes THEIRS!!!!

PROPRIETARY RIGHTS IN CONTENT POSTED ON THE SITE
General. You agree that any Content whatsoever posted by you to the public areas of the Site (excluding blogs) becomes the property of FIM and may be used, copied, sublicensed, adapted, transmitted, translated, distributed, publicly performed, displayed or deleted as FIM sees fit. You represent and warrant that: (i) you own the Content posted by you on the Site, (ii) your Content does not violate the privacy rights, publicity rights, copyright rights, intellectual property rights, or any other rights of any person, and (iii) the posting of your Content on the Site does not result in a breach of any contract between you and a third party. You agree to pay for all royalties, fees and any other monies owing any person by reason of any Content you post on the site.

That's what I was afraid of Herbie. I think Jeff Foxworth did the same thing when they were looking for a song for his TV show.

Bill

So...you mean that by simply entering the contest one would be giving the rights to their song away? Really? It sure reads that way, but geez...????

Sadly, that's pretty common with these contests. Someone needs to see if that is just the website or if it's also the songs entered in the contest.

Brian

Herbie -
I don't think you are correct here ... at least, I think what you are looking at refers to the content of the American Idol site...not the selected song.
When you register to submit a song (you can do that and not be obligated to go further) there is a tab that says Songwriter's Agreement or something like that ... it is there they discuss the publishing agreement.
What I get from it is this:
If your song is selected the writers will be required to enter into an agreement.
"19 Entertainment" will have "exclusive right" to publish the song for a period of 10 years in return of an advance $10,000 against a royalty to the writer of 75% 'at source' worldwide.
(I have no idea with the royalty to writer at source worldwide means)

It looks like the writer will get $10,000 and royalties - AI has exlusive rights to the song for 10 years.. I think

Joanne

Don't assume Joanne. If anyone cares about their songs, I would have a lawyer look at the agreements in full before entering. If you don't care, then enter away.

Brian

Absolutely ... I don't assume anything .. I actually emailed a copy of the agreement to an attorney to look at ...
I just think that Herbie may be confused as to what he was reading ... It is not from the agreement .. I believe it is regarding copying parts of the site. Then I again, I could be wrong.
Joanne

From what is posted here, it seems like what Herbie's info says: "that any content whatsoever posted by you to the public areas of the site (excluding blogs) becomes the property of FIM..." could certainly pertain to songs entered into the contest, because the method of entering is to post the song to the site. Seems like they could then legally claim ownership of all the songs entered if they wanted to. What Joanne has posted seems to apply specifically to the song or songs that are selected. This leaves a lot of gray area...hmmm???

This was actually one contest I was thinking of entering (although I agree that a lot of contests are stupid.) I figured if it was on the up and up, that the exposure factor would make it worthwhile on the wild chance my song would get chosen to compete. And that it would get heard by A&R people in the process. Who knows, right? You gotta play to win! But...it is not worth giving up the rights to one of my most commercially viable songs.

I looked for a place on the AI site to ask questions but couldn't find it. If I find out anything else I'll report back.

AT the very bottom of the Contestant Agreement:
If you have any questions, please send an email to

Songwriter.Contest@19.co.uk.
Joanne

In reality they are likely just protecting themselves from lawsuits. But when there are agreements like this.. if your song entered and didn't win and later got picked up by a huge star and made huge money they'd be suing if they had the legal right to I bet. For 99% of everyone else it's not an issue most likely. But that's a real risk you're taking. Sad they have to have language like that, but I am sure THEY are giant lawsuit targets all the time and probably have no choice but to protect themselves.

Brian

I really claim ignorance here...It'll be interesting to hear what your attorney thinks Jojo...and Yes Brian, If I were them I'd word it that way too, they MUST get sued all the time. Surely they'll find a good song from all the people that enter anyway

Herbie

They might find a good song but I bet they dont use it. As I said before I bet it is picked already, and so is the "winner"
We have 2 new clones here in the UK. One is a "Joseph" search. Andrew Lloyd Webber is mincing around while the panelists laugh at the pathetic efforts of no-hopers who I suspect HAVE LEARNING DISABILITIES/PERSONALITY PROBLEMS. The other is a search for the lead parts in Grease. Very similar IT puts the worst of the hopefuls in the spotlight under huge psychological pressure and everybody laughs. The standard catchphrase "you could be Joseph" is already doing the rounds as a jibe aimed at anyone who makes a fool of themeselves. It has overtaken "you are the weakest link" as an insult in popularity.
My point is that it is pathetic and disgraceful to mock the afflicted who generally do not realise that they are being mocked. To capitalise on this is obscene. I hope someone sues them for discrimination against people with disabilities. They would have a good case. I do not have much time for the powers that be in this industry generally but Simon Cowell and ilk have hit new lows with this exploitational format which is being copied ad finitum. He has a lot to answer for. JIM (SEETHING)

PS The reason I am so angry is that two of my three children have learning disabilities. My youngest has severe learning difficulties. I hate to see such people being made a fool of.

I'm considering entering just as a writing exercise

I think I have good songs in my catalog but I'm not sure if I have one that fits what they are looking for

I believe an african american woman will win idol

They are looking for a song for the winner to sing after she is announced.
Something that will be fitting for the moment

So i think the song needs to be an inspiring pop / R&B song
that will show case the winners voice and vocal ability
ala true colors, wind beneath my wings
it also needs to have a universal message that idol fans will love and relate to

They say production doesn't matter but it does
It needs to have appropriate lyrics and an awesome melody

a few jpf members are bound to be finalists

looks like the deadline is 4/17 good luck

ande


next

I haven't seen a single episode, but if that Sanjey guy is still in, I predict he will win.

Jody

I took the Liberty of posting a copy of the Agreement in question, if that's o.k. to do so.

CONTESTANT AGREEMENT

1.
Introduction
The American Idol television series (“the Series”) is owned by 19 TV Limited (“19 TV”) and Fremantle Media North America Inc. The Series is in its sixth season – American Idol 6. 19 TV selects the songs to be performed by the contestants on the Series. 19 TV’s parent company, 19 Entertainment Limited, (“19 Entertainment”) is conducting a competition to find a new song for the winner of American Idol 6 to perform on the Series and to release as a commercial recording. This agreement sets out the terms upon which you may enter and participate in the American Idol Songwriter Competition (“the Competition”). In consideration of 19 Entertainment accepting you as a contestant in the Competition you agree to the terms set out in this agreement.
2.
Eligibility requirements
1. Age – You (and each Co-Writer) must be at least 18 years old on 1 March 2007. You (and each co-writer) will be required to produce proof of your identity and age upon request.
2. Citizenship – You (and each Co-Writer) must be a United States citizen or a legal permanent resident of the United States.
3. Free to contract – You (and each Co-Writer) must not be party to a current exclusive song-writing agreement and your song must not be the subject of any existing music publishing agreement.
4. Your Song – Your song must consist of music and lyrics. The music and lyrics must both be 100% written by you (and your co-writers if any) and be original works. The music and lyrics of your song are together called “the Song”. You may only enter one Song.
5. Not Allowed To Enter – You are not allowed to enter the Competition if you or any of the Co-Writers are:
1. employees or officers of 19 Entertainment, 19 TV, CKX Inc or any other company or corporation in the 19 or CKX Inc groups of companies;
2. employees or officers of Fremantle Media North America, Inc, Fox Broadcasting Company or of any other company or corporation in the Fremantle Media or Fox groups of companies;
3. employees or officers of AKQA or of any other company or corporation in the AKQA group of companies; or
4. an immediate family member (spouse, mother, father, sister, brother, daughter or son) of or living in the same household (whether related or not) as anyone referred to in (a) (b) or (c) above.
3.
The Competition
1. In order to enter the Competition you must:
1. follow all registration requirements on the Competition’s website, including accepting the terms of this Agreement;
2. submit one Song for entry into the Competition by sending a demonstration recording of the Song in MP3 or other acceptable format (“the Recording”) to the Competition website and a copy of the lyrics of the Song in WORD, PDF or other acceptable format (“the Lyric Sheet”); and
3. pay the entry fee of US$10, which is non returnable.
2. By entering the Competition you grant to 19 Entertainment the following irrevocable rights throughout the World:
1. the right to copy and store the Song, the Recording and the Lyric Sheet in any and all media;
2. the right to copy and reproduce the Song, the Recording and the Lyric Sheet in any and all media for the purposes of the Competition (as defined below);
3. the right to publicly perform the Song and the Recording in any and all media for the purposes of the Competition;
4. the right to record and authorise others to record the Song for the purposes of the Competition;
5. the right to synchronise the Song and the Recording with visual images for the purposes of the Competition;
6. the right to use your name, likeness and biographical information and those of each Co-Writer for the purposes of the Competition; and
7. the right to authorise others to do any or all of the above.
3. The expression “for the purposes of the Composition” referred to in 3.2 above includes:
1. copying, reproduction, public performance and use on the Competition website, AmericanIdol.com and any other website associated with the Competition or the Series (such as a Sponsor’s website);
2. use in advertisements, commercials and other promotions (whether in or out of context) for the Competition;
3. recording the Song and authorising others to record the Song; and
4. embodying the Song and recordings of the Song (including the Recording) in television programmes (including episodes of the Series) or other audio-visual productions synchronised with visual images for exploitation in any and all media and in advertisements and promotions for such television programmes or other audio-visual productions.
4. The Competition will comprise the following elements:
1. 19 Entertainment will select twenty (20) songs from those entered to go forward for public voting on the Competition website. 19 Entertainment’s decision on the selection of the twenty songs (“the Top 20 Songs”) will be final;
2. the public will be invited to vote to select the winning song from the Top 20 Songs. This vote will be either by voting on the Competition website or by a telephone vote;
3. the winning song will be the song receiving most public votes.
5. If the Song is selected by 19 Entertainment as one of the Top 20 Songs, you (and all Co-Writers) will be required to enter into a further agreement with 19 Entertainment (“the Publishing Agreement”) as a condition of you continuing in the Competition. The Publishing Agreement will grant to 19 Entertainment (or its publishing designee) the exclusive right to publish the Song (but not any other music or lyrics you may have written) for a period of ten (10) years in return for an advance to you of $10,000 against a royalty to you of 75% ‘at source’ worldwide.
6. If the Song is not selected by 19 Entertainment as one of the Top 20 Songs the Song will be held in reserve should the Writer of any of the Top 20 Songs fail to enter into the Publishing Agreement. If the Song is not used as a reserve no use of the Song or Recording will be made, but the Song , the Recording and the Lyric Sheet you submitted will be stored by 19 Entertainment.
7. If the Song wins the Competition, it will be recorded by the winner of American Idol 6, performed at the finale of American Idol 6 and released as a commercial recording for sale to the public in compact disc and electronic formats. You (and any of your Co-Writers) will receive royalties pursuant to the Publishing Agreement for all commercial exploitation of the Song (other than for use of the Song for the purposes of the Competition).
4.
Co-Writers
If the Song is written by you together with one or more others (“Co-Writers”), you confirm that you have the authority of the Co-Writers to enter into this Agreement on their behalf. If the Song is selected as one of the Top 20 Songs you and all your Co-Writers will be required to confirm in writing that you and all Co-Writers are bound by this Agreement, failing which the Song will be replaced in the Top 20 and excluded from the Competition.
5.
The Recording
You confirm that the Recording is owned 100% by you and any Co-Writers and that you have the right to grant to us all rights in the Recording set out in this Agreement. If you do not perform on the Recording or are not the only performer on the Recording you confirm that you have all necessary consents and permissions to make and exploit the Recording.
6.
General Terms
1. The Competition is a winner-take-all competition. There will be no consolation prizes except as 19 Entertainment may otherwise determine in its sole discretion.
2. Contestant collusion is prohibited. Any contestants found conspiring or colluding with another contestant will be ejected from the Competition.
3. All decisions regarding the Competition, including but not limited to rules, eligibility, song selection, voting methods, voting results, disqualification determinations and the awarding of prizes are at 19 Entertainment’s sole and exclusive discretion, are final, binding and are not subject to challenge or appeal. 19 Entertainment reserves the right to disqualify contestants from the Competition for any reason in its sole discretion. 19 Entertainment is the sole judge of the outcome of each round of the Competition and 19 Entertainment’s decision is final and binding and not subject to challenge or appeal.
4. 19 Entertainment may at any time and in its sole discretion, add or subtract a round of competition from the Competition; and/or determine the method of voting to be used for such additional round(s).
5. 19 Entertainment may at any time and in its sole discretion reinstate into the Competition a song which had previously been eliminated.
6. By entering the Competition you accept and agree to be bound by this Agreement and by the decisions of 19 Entertainment which decisions shall be final and binding on all matters relating to all aspects of the Competition. The rules of the Competition are subject to change at any time for any reason, with or without notice, in 19 Entertainment’s sole discretion, and such changes shall not be subject to challenge or appeal.
7. You (and each Co-Writer) agree to release, hold harmless and indemnify 19 Entertainment, Fremantle Media North America Inc., Fox Broadcasting Company, AKQA, all production personnel, participating television stations, and their respective parents, affiliated and subsidiary companies, affiliates, advertisers, and their respective officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives (collectively, the “Released Parties”) from and against any and all liabilities, claims, actions, damages, expenses and losses of any kind arising from or relating to the Song, the Recording, or any statement or action or omission in connection with your participation in the Competition, any related television programme and/or the making, taping, use, editing, distribution, exhibition, licensing, advertising, promoting, broadcast and/or webcast of such programme.
8. You understand and agree that all publicity in connection with the Competition is under the sole control of 19 Entertainment. You agree to consult with 19 Entertainment regarding any and all publicity (including, but not limited to, television, radio and print interviews) in connection with your involvement with the Competition and shall not perform or consent to perform any publicity without prior written approval of the 19 Entertainment.
9. You agree to treat all information and material that you receive or acquire during your participation in the Competition as strictly confidential and not to disclose any such information to any third party.
10. 19 Entertainment reserves the right to set limits on, among other things, the duration of the voting period and the number of votes that may be made per telephone number or individual per voting period.
11. All decisions regarding technical difficulties or mechanical failures in connection with the Competition (including any such difficulties or failures with the internet or telephone voting systems to be used by the public) will be determined by 19 Entertainment in its sole discretion and shall be final and binding on you. If a technical difficulty, mechanical failure, human error or other possible irregularity affecting the Competition occurs during the Competition, 19 Entertainment will review the situation on a case-by-case basis and take appropriate action to preserve the fairness and integrity of the Competition. If 19 Entertainment, in its sole discretion, determines that technical difficulty, mechanical failure or human error has corrupted the Competition, 19 Entertainment may take any remedial step including, without limitation, repeating a round of the Competition and/or any other measure 19 Entertainment in its sole discretion, deem necessary and/or appropriate.
12. This Agreement shall be governed by the Laws of England. you and 19 Entertainment agree that the High Court of Justice in England is the exclusive court of jurisdiction in relation to this Agreement.

You acknowledge that you have read and fully understood this Agreement and agree to abide by its terms.

REFUND POLICY

The registration fee for American Idol Songwriter 2007 is ten dollars. This registration fee is non-refundable once you submit your transaction. If payment is rejected or does not clear for any reason, 19 Entertainment and American Idol Songwriter reserve the right to refuse registration and entry to the American Idol Songwriter 2007 contest.

If you have any questions, please send an email to Songwriter.Contest@19.co.uk.

Dayson

I read the contest rules. This contest is all money making. The art in making song is now at the hands of the people who will vote for it and with string attached for every choices they make.

The songwriter who will join in this contest is like betting in a lottery game. The chance to hit the only one jackpot is almost impossible and it will depend on so many variables.

What if some people love your song and they voted for it a million times but you still short a hundred because your opponent is much better. Guess what you will not receive any dime for you are the second place and the organizer still award to the lucky one winner.

Maybe the popularity of the unlucky 19 can bring home the bacon. I hope their songwriting skills will echo up to the nearest star of our solar system.

We have the same contest here in our country where a lot of songwriters call it foul but the organizer still lives on. I learned my lessons on our local contest. Now its also happening in other countries.

Mabuhay!!!

Lynman

Does anybody think this one is worth entering? They all seem risky. Like we have talked about before on the site here. So much legal mumbo jumbo in their contracts the is hard to figure out. Some of us think there was foul play with the VH1 Music and lyrics contest. It looked like they had the winner picked out way ahead of time. His video was playing constantly while we all posted our songs and his was one of the only ones playing throughout the month or so long contest. Strange....

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com

Tammy

If I were you dont join. Your 10 dollars still worth a lot. keep your song for future listener where you can earn and this people will enjoy your music untarnished by contest unfair rules.

one thing who is your avatar??? is that you? Got a very pretty pretty face fit to a pop artist.

Lynman

I don't know, I'm starting to feel a bit silly for even considering entering. But you do have to play to win - even if it is just a $10 lottery ticket.

I would be very interested to hear what Joanne's lawyer has to say. Hopefully she will feel at liberty to share the info here.

Wonder what they mean by "the Recording and the Lyric Sheet you submitted will be STORED by 19 Entertainment" and what rights that gives them regarding the songs that are not chosen?

If ones song would get chosen it would be very good compensation. $10,000 advance and 75% royalty would certainly be sweet, and the exposure would be of immeasurable value. Every AI winner's song has gone to #1 if I'm not mistaken. It's pretty much a given.

It would be a fun writing exercise, although getting a new song recorded properly in 8 days might be challenging, depending on production approach. And obviously sound quality will have an impact!

I agree that an uplifting R&B/Pop song will likely suit the potential winner best, and they must certainly be looking for a fit there. I have a few viable songs already written in that genre, but only rough demos. Honestly, I would probably be most well suited writing for Gina Glocksen. Now that she is gone, maybe I should pitch some tunes to her!

Who knows? Should be interesting to hear the songs that get chosen and the winner. Good luck to all who choose to go for it!
Not sure if I will or not...

The thread on this forum about the same songwriting contest is called "The Great American White Rhino Hunt is on - Aim very carefully"

Emily

Kester
That is true you cant win if you dont join but you also waging your song. Think your song is your daugther or son and they hit the top 20 and you did not reach the top because someone occupying it much better than yours. She get 10 million while you get 10,000. Its only a game but your song was already exposed for million of listener worldwide and you get 10,000 dollars. Future royalties I guess is much lower thatn the token of price you will received.

Imagine your song your song sang by the indian guy and the whole country of india and pakistan is voting for your song but unfortunately you still short for a few more votes. I dont think 10,000 is good enough.

But still your choice.

Lynman

I might have to disagree with lynman.

If your song is chose out of the top 20, That's 10,000 dollars!
That's enough money to make a lot of demos! They would have to feel very strongly about your song to offer you 10,000 dollars for a contract on it. Odds are they are going to want to pitch it somewhere at some time to get their investment back. Most people will not come by an opportunity like this in Ten years, so it could be worth the investment.
You have to ask yourself, is my song worth the 10.00 dollar investment? I think it might be worth the risk, if nothing else you if your song is chosen you have 10,000 dollars. If you are writing songs on this level you, you should ask yourself-Is this the only strong song I am capable of writing?
There are others songs to be written, and 10,000 dollars could demo quite a lot! That's just my take on it! Any other thoughts?

No problem dayson You can disagree with me but in my position and give you some devil advocate here I wont. Think of the numbers. Thats only the tip of the iceberg were talking and the organizer they have everything.

Here you are winner of ten thousand and you making a lot of demo pitching your song to a thousand publisher worlwide still trying to make a living and your song that won on the american idol never earn so much to augment your income because the song already reach the potential during the contest. They earn million dollars for your song and all you got is the cool 10k bucks.

Read some story of some succesful songwriters and ask them on what their view regarding this contest, Im sure they will disagree with the rules.

Dayson, honestly we have the same contest here in our country and I was naive back then just like you and I said 2,000 dollars is abig money for the winner. But I was blessed I didnt won because the winner lost their song to the organizer.

Your song is your song. All your sweat, passion and love are embedded in it. Dont give it to the devil.

Lynman

If the agreement is anything like the one that binds the winner then it insures money in the pocket on the producers only.

Only the girls every make it. Kelly Clarkson is from my hometown of Burleson, Texas. I wrote this when she came back for the grand opening of her movie and sang at the Burleson High School homecoming game.

It wouldn't win but this is my take on American Idol

Hometown girl

She was a goofy little thing in braces and glasses
Nobody carried her books to her high school classes
All the boys used to tease her like their little bitty sister
All the girls had a laugh when Billy tried to kiss her

Just look at her now, an American Idol
She won the big prize at the Grand Recital
She's number one on the TV show
Now everybody wants to know
Our hometown girl

Nobody really thought she would get that far
Look at her now, she's a TV star
Hollywood celebrities and and want-a-bees
Buzz around her, talk about her, constantly

She got a voice like Barbara Streisand
Can belt it out like Aretha Franklin
She's number one on the radio
and everybody wants to know
Our hometown girl

(yodel) She's our lay,,,,,,dee on the ray....dee....o

Well, she made it back home for the football game
With an entourage in a limousine
All the boys said, "Look at her, she's got it made
That's the girl I use to tease in second grade"
All the girls said, "I taught her every thing she knows
How to fix her hair and pick out them clothes

The football team stood twice as handsome
When she sang the National Anthem
And when they cheered her at the half-time show
Everyone was proud to know
Our hometown girl

She's got a voice as sweet and honey
And every note sounds just like money
Hear her singing on the radio?
All of us are proud to know
Our hometown girl

(yodel) She's our lay,,,a,,,dee on the ray..a..dee....o

It's a personal choice whether to enter contests, any contests, or not. I have only entered two in my life - one waaay back in 1988 with a terrible recording of a good song I recorded in my bathroom on a TASCAM four track cassette machine. And I submitted my album Raucoustic to the JPF awards in 2002. I don't really consider the JPF awards a contest like what we are discussing here. But anyway...

Am I missing something here? the $10,000 is an advance and then there is a 75% royalty ...right ? Which if the song goes to number one and gets played on the radio constantly...could add up to hundreds of thousands!! And there is the exposure factor!

Lynman, I appreciate your point of view. And let me just add that I have always considered every one of my songs like a child to me. But with a very large catalog of songs, many of which have only been heard by my circle of friends and intimate fanbase, I am certainly beginning to think it may be time not to be so precious about it.

I have no doubt that many of my songs are at a professional level and have commercial potential, but my anti-capitalist beliefs have caused me to stear away from money making opportunities. I have been working on my craft for decades now, and not pursuing money making avenues because I always thought of that as "selling out"...but what if architects never sold their plans because they were their babies, or what if inventors never marketed their ideas because they were just too close to their heart? Without stepping outside the comfort zone one may never take their art to a level of generating any lasting income.

Guess I've just really been thinking long and hard about all this lately...and maybe the debate over the AI contest has made me think even harder...So, I really value everyone's views and opinions on these matters. Lots of food for thought here...

Not sure I consider it "selling out" to work my craft well enough to be able to support myself doing what I love ... I believe the creativity is a gift ... what you do with that gift is the choice... I can write good songs and sing them to my friends... or, if given the option, I can share them with the world, listen to my songs .. sing my songs around the world
Yes .. my songs are like my babies and I would never "give them up" .. but if someone will compensate me fairly ... bring it on!
I realize that's where you have to be careful and as Brian said earlier .. be sure an entertainment attorney takes a look at all contracts before signing anything.
Good Luck
Joanne

Kester.

Im not so sure with the 75% royalty. It is too huge normaly it runs 50/50 writer publisher. that 75% ussually runs in subpublishing deals

There is a word there (against). It is kind of tricky. I really want to read the previous discusssion here but I cant find the right forum. I think Brian already mentioned it in this thread but I cannot find it.

There are so many ways to pitch your song. Improving the craft is the upmost important. If your song is good it will shine even your voice and one accompanying instruments.

You giving the queen of england more reason to juice your talent for small fee while they are busy invading your american culture with their own act.

One example is artic monkey they give their song for free and later america got hooked with their monkey business. They stratedgy is good. Maybe you can do it at least your song is still yours. SEe my point..

Lynman

Hey Lyman
That's the part I don't understand either .. "against" Hmmmm..
There is more discussion on this topic started on an earlier post on this forum ... Look for a topic about the Searching for the White Rhino ... something like that.
Joanne

Wait!!! Here it is.
http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=490371&page=1#Post490371

Joanne
Thanks for the info.
I already finished reading their thread. They dont mention about the game rules.
WEll just wait a little longer to see other people comment on the contract.
Even Brian dont want to bet his 10 dollars.
I hope you guys smell something fishy in the said contest.

Lynman

Lyman - scroll up on this thread .. someone posted the Contestant Agreement.
Joanne

Joanne

Yup I read that already. That is my basis why im crying out loud here regarding the problem nowadays in songwriting contest.
Its happening in our country now it also happening also in your country.


Got to go Hey I voted in your site twice ha...

Lynman

5. If the Song is selected by 19 Entertainment as one of the Top 20 Songs, you (and all Co-Writers) will be required to enter into a further agreement with 19 Entertainment (“the Publishing Agreement”) as a condition of you continuing in the Competition.

I think they are smart enough to realize an agreement like this would be very difficult to enforce in court of law. Don’t see a lot to be worried about unless your song is selected in the top twenty.

That is when they will require a real signature on a real contract and then you will have a decision to make.

Bill

I say go for it, if you asked any of the successful contestants (kelly Clarkson, Clay Aiken, Carrie Underwood) if they had to do it over agian would they sign that contract? Of course they would!!! Otherwise we may have never known who they were!

I used to be in the acting business and there are times when you do a show for very little to get exposure and experience or play a role in a movie for very little pay it's about getting out there, having people know you and building on that.

I agree nobody wants to be taken advantage of so when it comes down to the wire wwe all will have to decide for ourselves.

Good luck!

Well, like I said on the "Hunting the Great White Rhino" thread, I did enter. I always have to ask myself in these situations whether I'm wasting my money. In this instance, what I can realistically expect to get out of it, in exchange for my ten-dollar entry fee, is the ability to tell audiences, "And this is the song that was rejected by American Idol..." And I decided that was probably worth the ten bucks.

I think I'd agree that in any contest where the quality of writing is a factor in winning, people from JPF do have an odds-on chance; the system of peer review we have here hones skills well, and has helped people become better writers. (At least, it has helped *me* become a better writer.) Remember, though, that American Idol doesn't work that way. You're dealing with a built-in bias *against* quality because of the show's focus on humiliating people, and you have the "public vote" thing, too, which is manipulable in a big way. Unlike milk, what rises to the top in this case may very well not be the cream.

That said, I'm obviously not going to discourage anybody from tossing the A.I. people a worthwhile bone. Hey, I did--funky contract and all nothwithstanding. I'd encourage only being prepared in advance to be comfortable with the results.

The Artist Formerly Known as Moonless Joe

Lynman, I have to laugh when you say I am being naive.
As Kester has pointed out, the 10,000 dollars is an advance for the song. That's not selling your song for a flat fee. If your song is the winner, you stand to make hundreds of thousands of dollars.
If it's chosen for the top 20, then you get a 10.000 dollar advance and if nothing happens with the song, it reverts back to you in Ten years.

If that's your only good song, or possible best song, then of course you really have to think it over carefully.

Yes, songs are your "Babies" but like a Parent-You have to be willing to let them go and make their way into the real-world.
Think of your songs as "Seeds" sprinkle them around and hope they grow into Beautiful Flowers:) That will hopefully pay your rent for the rest of your life:)

If you let the fear of someone else's song being "better" stop you from competing, then you have already lost.
It's all about competition in this game, you are up against the best in the World!



Lynman's quote:

"Im not so sure with the 75% royalty. It is too huge normaly it runs 50/50 writer publisher. that 75% ussually runs in subpublishing deals"



The Publishing Agreement will grant to 19 Entertainment (or its publishing designee) the exclusive right to publish the Song (but not any other music or lyrics you may have written) for a period of ten (10) years in return for an advance to you of $10,000 against a royalty to you of 75% ‘at source’ worldwide.

I believe 'At Source' is when the money is collected before all the other fees that are associated with collecting monies. licensing fees/sub-publishers fees and things that go into the handling and marketing of the song.

If you have signed a 50/50 split in the traditional publishers contract, you will still make your 50% share, but the fee(advance) has to be recouped by the publisher before you get your share.

Most startup writers will not even get an advance on a Single Song Contract. For most 'Unknown' writers, you won't get to keep your Publishing anyway!

It all comes down to "Personal" choice as someone has mentioned. It's not about being "Naive".
It's about making smart and well informed choices based on the situation.

If YOU chose not to enter, then that's your business.
If others chose to, then that is theirs. Good luck!

Has anyone mentioned that the song selected will have the range and melody to "showcase" the singer. That is a totally different kind of writing than most of us ever consider. And to present the song so that it will appeal to the judges, it will have to have 1. outstanding title 2. Full production because the judges will probably give each song about 15 seconds before it is rejected. Don't believe me? Just go to any genre on soundclick and listen to 20 random songs in a row. It won't even take you 10 seconds to tell if the song is any good or not.

Here's a bit more info, that I copied from their site regarding
Lyrics/Music/production. You be the Judge:)

What makes a good Idol Lyric?


The songs performed by past American Idol winners usually reflect the emotional journey they have gone through on the show. We’re listening for a meaningful lyric that connects with the American Idol audience and complements a great melody and song structure.

Is there any one genre of song that works best for American Idol?

Our show is watched by millions of Americans both young and old, so your lyrics and music need to be accessible and appealing to that audience.

Should I write with one contestant in mind or should I submit different versions of my song for each potential finalist?

Do neither. Instead you should focus on simply writing a great song with broad appeal. A song that has these qualities can be arranged by our chosen record producer to suit individual singers.

How long should my song be?

Between two and a half and four minutes is best for us in terms of running time.

Do I need a complete arrangement?


A simple vocal recording accompanied by a guitar or piano will be enough for us to hear if your song could work for American Idol. Our skilled production team can then work their magic and complete the musical arrangement around your song if you make it though to our finale.

My Songwriting is a lot better than my singing, will this hurt my chances?


Not at all – remember, we’re not judging your performance, just the song. Perhaps you know a friend who is more confident in front of a microphone and can help you out. If not, don’t worry, as a great song will always shine through.

I hope this helps give a little more insight to the contest:)

The definition of "at source" publishing rights as per the BBc website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onemusic/legal/publishagp09.shtml

seems like a standard deal over there.

Rick

Lynman,

I think I know what you're talking about with contests ripping people off, because I tried entering the Sharon Cuneta X-mas songwriting contest a while ago, and I didn't enter because the prize money was only P5,000, and they also kept the song as their property AND kept the royalty monies that were earned from the song.

In this case, however, the $10,000 is an advance paid to you upfront, PLUS you'll receive royalties from the profits of the song. So you see, the money does not stop at $10,000...

I'm really interested as to what Joanne's lawyer has to say about this contract, because I'm actually thinking of entering...

-Karen

Dayson

I hope your interpretation of the words "against the source" is right because if that is true then this contest is too good to be true. This is the songwriters dream contest.

Im not being so cynical here but lets wait with joanne lawyer to deal with our simple word against. Anyway you guys have still have 7 days to go.

The contracts has so many loopholes. They trying to avoid it by blanketing it with so many jargons terms only lawyer understand.

TRy to read this.

2. Contestant collusion is prohibited. Any contestants found conspiring or colluding with another contestant will be ejected from the Competition.
3. All decisions regarding the Competition, including but not limited to rules, eligibility, song selection, voting methods, voting results, disqualification determinations and the awarding of prizes are at 19 Entertainment’s sole and exclusive discretion, are final, binding and are not subject to challenge or appeal. 19 Entertainment reserves the right to disqualify contestants from the Competition for any reason in its sole discretion. 19 Entertainment is the sole judge of the outcome of each round of the Competition and 19 Entertainment’s decision is final and binding and not subject to challenge or appeal.


See this is cool to screw you.

Want more??

Lynman

Here is the first song written for the first American Idol. I could be wrong but this is probably the kind of song they are looking for: Notice the chorus does double duty by completing the song and having lyrics that can apply to the American Idol experience, in this case that special "Moment" when she wins the title.


Kelly Clarkson A Moment Like This Lyrics

What if I told you it was all meant to be
Would you believe me
Would you agree
It's almost that feelin'
We've met before
So tell me that you don't think I'm crazy
When I tell you love has come here now

A moment like this
Some people wait a lifetime
For a moment like this
Some people search forever
For that one special kiss
Ohh, I can't believe it's happening to me
Some people wait a lifetime
For a moment like this

Everything changes
But beauty remains
Something so tender
I can't explain
Well I maybe dreamin'
But 'till I awake
Can we make this dream last forever
And I'll cherish all the love we share

A moment like this
Some people wait a lifetime
For a moment like this
Some people search forever
For that one special kiss

Ohh, I can't believe it's happening to me
Some people wait a lifetime
For a moment like this

Could this be the greatest love of all
I wanna know that you will catch me when I fall
So let me tell you this

Some people wait a lifetime

For a moment like this
Some people wait a lifetime
For a moment like this
Some people search forever
For that one special kiss
Ohh, I can't believe it's happening to me
Some people wait a lifetime
For a moment like this

Ohh!
(A moment) Like this!

(A moment) Ohh!
I can't believe it's happening to me!

Some people wait a lifetime
For a moment like this

Ohh
Like this

Hi Sam,

That was nice of you to research and post the original Idol winner finale song. Interesting always to see certain lyrics in print. If this had been on our board we might argue that metering in 1st verse is out of whack w/metering in 2nd verse and yet when sung all the kinks work out. This is proof that it's all in the sing.

I counted 3 rhyming words in 1st verse (be, me, agree) 4 rhyming words in 2nd verse (remain, explain, awake and make) and "kiss" with "this" in chorus.

Thanks again,
Lynn

This is the explanation of "at source" music publishing deals in England where this contest is being administrated and where the contest rules state that the rule of law governing this contest will be followed.
I included the link in my above post for every one's edification. The site is a guide to overseas publishing and includes links to all the aspects of the typical deals. Below is an excerpt from the website, BBC One Music. The article even uses the same percentages as an example.
At any rate, if your song were to be chosen as a top 20 song you would have the option of not signing the deal and keep all your rights. The down side is that you would be tieing up the song for 10 years. But if it made top 20 then there would be a good chance that some one of 19 entertainments clients would want to record it.
I'm not a lawyer but it seems like a pretty straight forward risk, reward, kind of deal.
Go to the website I posted a link to in my above post and check out the info there. If for no other reason than to educate yourself for future opportunities.
Rick

09 Overseas Royalties
If you sign an exclusive, worldwide deal, your publisher will collect your royalties from the usage of your songs overseas.

A large publisher will have affiliated companies in each territory to look after these rights directly.

Smaller ones do this through 'sub-publishers'. They will contract an established publisher in each territory to administer your royalties on their behalf.

Calculating royalties
There are two ways of calculating your royalties from overseas usage.

One is on an 'at source' basis. In this case, your royalty is calculated as a percentage of all the income generated by your songs overseas.

The other way is a 'receipts-based' deal. In this case the sub-publisher deducts their commission and then passes what's left to your publisher. They then calculate your royalties from that.

Example 1
Suppose you're a writer on a 75% deal with your publisher.

Your song has gone massive in Brazil and you're calculating your riches.

Under an At Source deal you would earn 75p for every £1 worth of royalties that your tune generated in Brazil .

Hi argo -
Thanks for your help here.. That is pretty much what my attorney friend concluded. I did go to the site.. it's there in black and white.
So, I am trying to conclude one thing.
"At any rate, if your song were to be chosen as a top 20 song you would have the option of not signing the deal and keep all your rights. The down side is that you would be tieing up the song for 10 years. But if it made top 20 then there would be a good chance that some one of 19 entertainments clients would want to record it.
I'm not a lawyer but it seems like a pretty straight forward risk, reward, kind of deal."

Is this saying if my song is chosen for top 20, but not the winner ... they will still hold the rights for 10 years. They will hold the rights to all top 20 songs for 10 years?


But ... I am thinking ... if my song can be chosen from the massive amounts of songs that are to be submitted .. It is an incredible opportunity for my song to be heard by people "I" would have never been able to get it to. I am thinking that may be worth the gamble ... But ... 10 years is a long time ... But .... would collect 75% royalties ...
My various personalities are fighting this one out!

I think it might be a no-brainer... go for it.
Joanne

OK Forget for one moment that I hate this type of exploitation TV. The important thing here is that Mr Cowell and Co. who own the rights etc of this show and its production company ARE British. He uses British lawyers and legal terms. The original rules AND contracts etc were made under UK LAWS. "Blanket" statements are used as a get out clause by control freaks. IE by entering you agree that the judges decision is final and no legal disputes etc will be entered into. They call the shots and there is nothing that you can do to change things. This is standard practice with this type of competition in the UK. IT USUALLY MEANS THAT THEY CAN ALSO "MOVE THE GOALPOSTS" and they have the right TO CHANGE AMEND ETC.. One thing is for sure if you win this competition you will make a lot of cash. But they will probably OWN YOU. ASK YOURSELF THIS QUESTION. IF I DO NOT WIN THIS COMP HOW MUCH IN COMPARISON WOULD THE SONG HAVE MADE? If your song is not selected I do not think that they will own it or have any rights to publish it or stop you from publishing etc and even if they did you would still be entitled to the full Royalties. My final point IF they did try and screw someone out of their rights and money the $H@t WOULD HIT THE FAN WHEN THE NEWSPAPERS GOT A HOLD OF THE STORY. That would make my day and hopefully be an end of them and their "Crappie" programs.

After all I have read about these contests, I don't see myself ever entering any. Finding a worthwhile contest to enter is like trying to find intellegent life on another planet......we aint found it yet!


Then again, I don't write well enuff to try anyway so, no loss on my part!

I have an idea! (Oh no):

IF by the Lucky Strike of the Music Gods your song makes it to the Top 20, write or have already written a copycat song, with making sure no copyright infringements are being composed within the new adapted song.

That way, if your original song is selected in the Top 20, you know you had something the A&R people considered marketable, and you'll have another! Then shop your copycat song to whoever, or attempt at signing it with that same publisher of A.I. if so desired.


Might send in ("Just Gotta Be Friends" and possibly "My Heart feels Light As Air"),,,No one has ever heard that last one yet, and I think is our best D&H song, with all the bells and whistles of emotional set-ups and all, with a killer high note ending that starts in the chord before the ending chord. (Yeah,,,we like!). Will wait to do the copycat songs though until lightening strikes and also the million dollar number is announced! LOL!

The "Reverse Option" of the above "idea" could be done too. You're smart, figure it out.

Good luck me! Oh Ok,,,YOU too!
John
(Writing for my kids and grandkids, and so on). So that's why me first. All who enter are going for the top prize, I'm sure. "Friends" can be heard in first link below.

Another win -win situation for old "Crafty Cowell"....Get tens of thousands of Songwriters to submit a song,at $10 bucks a whip..give 20 of them a $10 grand advance...just out the goodness of his heart...tie up the songs for 10 years..(well..you gotta make it look legit)...so lets say for talkings sake he gets 100,000 entries..probably more...thats a$1m bucks..but he is giving back $200,000...(bless him)..hmmn nice little earner...You see,why he hasnt done this little 3 carder
on the British Public in the UK.(where this show was concieved)
is simply we havent the population....not to say he wouldnt fish out a few nice songs...but he wouldn't make as much cash...and we are all getting a little bit weary and wary of "simple simon"...it is the old percentage game..and strength in numbers...so the good old U.S.of A. gets first crack at this latest brainchild of crafty Cowell......on paper it looks not too bad...but old simon could make Attila the Hun look good on paper...in practice i suspect it will be a different ball game..
Simon is really thinking of all the angles...he has now involved Songwriting into the "wannabe's"..instant stardom category....and he has really covered his back well..."it doesn't need to be well produced" it is the song that matters...
our team of experts will turn your song into a masterpiece...but make sure that $10 bucks is in their somewhere..and is visual ..very visual...let me hear the sound of crispy notes....not musical ones...Simon ..you can kiss mine...and as ol Bing used to sing..."Right down the Middle"...Terry Moore...