JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum The songs are wrote. Now what??

I've wrote a few songs now i need to know the proper steps to get them going. What i mean is i dunno squat about the music biz. I'm just a lowly songwriter trying to break out into the big time like the rest of you. I haven't recorded anything because i don't know if i should record DEMO's myself of have them recorded by a professional. Maybe you guys know a good recording studio who can answer questions for me and won't take me for a ride. But then what? You guys probly think I'm a duffous but I want to do things right and not skip steps or make mistakes in haste. Thanks for listening.

Miles

Hi Miles,

Before spending a bunch of money, I'd start learning about the music business. Get some books, you can probably find a bunch for free at the library. Do a search here on "music business books" and I'll bet you'll find a bunch. John Braheny has a great book and a website you can find on the home page under mentors. Also, hang around here and ask questions. There's no such thing as a dumb question, only dumb answers

Then, after you know a bit about the business, you might make some home "work demos." Record them yourself on the computer, there are folks at the recording forum here who can help. You'll find plenty of threads and posts already on the subject. Then look at the feedback forums, here and elsewhere on the web. Post a few songs and listen to the critiques. Don't get bent out of shape if some people are hard on you, also don't take it too seriously if some people flip over your stuff. Get to know what the general consensus is. You'll get both good and bad advice...take your time and figure which will help you in your individual case.

After you're sure you've got songs that are "in the ballpark" and ready for pitching, then you can think about demos.

Nope, you're not a "dufous," rather you're pretty smart for wanting to go through things the right way. Hurry too much and you can burn out, get very dissappointed, and maybe lose a lot of money. Instead, you sound like you're doing things the smart way.

All the Best,
Mike

The songs are wrote???

Study correct use of the langauge.
Get a Thesaurus, Rhyming Dictionary and a Dictionary.
Get more experienced writers to critique your work.

Good luck!

Emily

Emily's given you good advice...but that doesn't mean you have to use correct language in lyrics. Often, doing things like not ending a sentence with a preposition, which is correct, can make lyrics sound "stilted" and "stiff" or "proper." Imagine a lyric:

"That is of which real men are made" as opposed to:

"That is what real men are made of"

There are two sides to this coin. The other is, you'll find in business your written letters, proposals and promo are often judged by their spelling, correct usage and clarity. Poor language can hurt you in business.

So, you're getting busted for saying, "The songs are wrote." instead of "the songs are written." but if a lyric said, "The songs are wrote" it might be fine. As in.

"I told the board the songs are wrote,
Now someone's tried to get my goat"

All the Best,
Mike

P.S. here's a good link to use for writing letters and promo:

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/

Good point, Mike. Thanks for giving those examples. Some variations in language and grammar fit well into artistic expression.

The things that REALY drive me crazy are writers not knowing the difference between you're and your, too, two and to, their and there...etc....!! Don't get me started!

Emily

Emily,

"writers not knowing the difference..." is a "thing," not "things."

Sorry for openin' a can o grammar worms. 'Cause we don't take kindly to book learnin' here in Texas. LOL

Miles

That's ok, Miles, where I grew up in Chicago, if the teacher asked what came at the end of a sentence, we said, "an appeal."

The things whot bees reallly bad is speling "realy" rowng.

Am I write?

OOPS, Mike! I never said I was perfect...LOL

Emily

Sorry, Emily, goodness knows my best grammer was married to my grandpa. I just couldn't resist

Mike

Yeah, Mike...we all make mistakes. I guess one of my pet peeves is that many writers don't read much, and that subsequent lack of language experience really impacts basic writing skills.

Ok...I'll step down from my soapbox! LOL

Emily

Emily,

Just to be difficult, here are some ideas.

Not everyone can write "rootsy" music. I'd be willing to bet that there are songs which over 95% of our membership have heard that were written by functionally illiterate songwriters. Yes, for a naturally talented songwriter, a well written promo, email and post may influence opinion, but without the meat, what good's the menu.

I'm a strong proponent of education. I think learning...learning anything...only improves a person. And, yes, I recommend it. But if someone has the boogie woogie that makes people dance, they can hire folks to write and edit their stuff. One secret I've kept all these years, I don't write these posts. I'm in my studio working on some Irish/Reggae/Gospel projects. From time to time, my secretary will come in to read what she's written and ask for some joke to include. Good...now that it's out, I'm going to appeal to you. This Dunbar guy's a jerk, he makes me type this stuff and even though he can't read, he threatens me that you folks will tell him if I try to slip in messages. He doesn't pay for diddle and charges me for water. He makes me type until my fingers bleed, and if that's not enough...I do the same thing for Graham Henderson! Please, don't tell them you've read this, but if you see them, let them know how much you appreciate their writing. Maybe those cheapskates will pay me a decent wage.

Miles, I hope and really don't believe anyone is making fun of your grammer and hope that you don't get that impression. It was just your opening post with "I've wrote", dotted i's and misspelled words that stood out and brought your whole inquiry into a different direction. Instead of helping you get your feet on the ground and helping to get your songs heard, people are talking about grammer and diction. We all misspell words here. My relatives are from the southeast so I come from a long line of hillbillies. My grandmother would write letters to my mother with an accent somewhat the way your post is. I remember my father would ask my mother "Why don't you put one of them froze (frozen) pizza's in the oven". You say that you want to break into the big time so I take it that you want to make money and that would require getting into the business side of things and yes proper communication skills are nessessary. You wouldn't write "The songs are wrote" to a publisher would you? I'm not one to give concrete advice because I am fairly new at writing myself but I would suggest that you record your music on whatever you can hook up to your computer and submit it to the mp3 feedback forum for review. Explain beforehand that you only want opinions of the song so people don't comment on production quality etc. that will come later. You can also submit your lyrics to the lyric forum. So go ahead and Git er done (joke) Ben willis

Miles,

Ben is right and is offering a great suggestion. I was not getting on you about grammar with my post, I was poking a little fun at Emily (just kidding Emily )

Obviously, your music is what is important and that is the thing for which you are asking advice.

Jack

Jack, Ben and Mike,

Thanks for really putting me in my place LOL
Great points...lots of good stuff to think about!
That's what I love most about these boards...being able to learn from others

Emily

Emily,

We wouldn't kid you if we didn't like you.

Folks, Emily Sanders is one of the most helpful members on the board. She is a music educator, a champion of music education, and a wonderful songwriter. Her album "Sheltering Wind" is a jewel.

Besides all that, she's right. We get judged by our spelling and grammar as well as our appearance. It's one thing on a post, but if someone in the music business is writing letters, sending emails and/or promo material, it's in their best interest to make sure the eyes are crossed and the tees are dotted. Get someone to check that stuff out before pressing "send." Use spell check (what a hypocrite I am...I NEVER use spell check...of course nobody can tel.), and it wouldn't hurt to brush up on grammar.

As for my pet peeves...when you shake someone's hand, for goodness sakes, shake the darn thing. Grip it like your milking a cow not holding soap bubbles, it feels like a dead fish. And look me in the eyes, I'm not going to bite you. And speak up, we're not in some darn library.

All the Best,
Mike

Wow, thanks, Mike,

I truly appreciate the support...and the compliments!
Thanks for the kind words about my CD, too.
I knew you guys weren't attacking me personally, and was not at all bothered by the posts on this thread.

My ego is strong enough to withstand criticism and challenges to my point of view....I have learned that I am not always right...!

Just Plain Folks has given me the gift of meeting and corresponding with a diverse group of artists, and I am amazed at how much I have learned from these message boards and from attending JPF events, such as JPF showcases and Pineyfest.

I totally agree with you that every letter, email, CD and press kit that is sent out to the industry should reflect intelligent, properly contructed language. My husband is a professional writer, so I am lucky to live with an editor and expert proofreader He's taught me to double check everything I write, and to use the resources around me, such as spell check and online dictionaries.

Mike, your insights here are always a breath of fresh air.
Your expertise and generosity have helped many writers here...
You're an inspiration to many of us, and
I am truly honored to be your friend!

Emily


Hey, everyone: Here's the link to Mike's CD...I have it...The MANY talents of Mike can be seen and heard...check it out! It rocks

http://cdbaby.com/cd/mikedunbar

What matters is the song. That is number one.

If you look into all the hit songs, and all the great songs, you will find a bunch of folks who couldnt spell one word of the song they just wrote.

However, I feel all songwriters should take the time to study their craft and the ins and outs of the the business.Education of songwriters is sadly lacking.



Dude

Emily and me, the grammar police...or is it Emily and I?..Emily and myself???? Damn!

I'm remembering Frank Zappa, who said something along these lines about rock journalism.... people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read. Well, nobody ever accused Frank of being too gentle.

Miles, I assumed at the top of this that you were being humorous, in a colloquial way. I am a person who rereads his email and tinkers with it like it was a formal letter, but on a forum I tend to get into the 'wassup, yo?' mode.

Those better qualified to answer your original question have done so, but I want to add that your best career foundation is to get out there and play your heart out. As a non-musician (hence, 'kazoomeister') I'm here, learning everything I can, because I'm helping my wife at a point that feels like a threshold in her career. It has only taken a couple months of surfing around various forums and resources to learn 2 things: 1) this forum is the best general resource on the web and 2) there are a lot of folks out there pouring incredible sums of money into demos and half-baked deals. When you have a real fan base and are playing out regularly, you will be automatically meeting people who can help you get recordings done. If you're worried about protecting your songs, remember the law is inclined on your behalf as the creator (doesn't mean someone won't try to screw you) and I think I've heard of the "poor man's copyright" where you mail your lyrics or worktape to yourself, and don't open the package. I would recommend that if it helps your peace of mind. Millions of dollars are changing hands between people who are trying to get into the business and people who claim to be able to get them there. When you have real commercial presence (locally/regionally) your opportunities to be graced by angels and harried by devils will increase dramatically, but by then you will have the chops for business because you've been doing business.

Miles, Being from Texas is no excuse for bad grammar...why the president of the U.S.A is from Texas...Uh, nevermind!

bc,

You are too funny! Sometimes, when I think I might end up saying or writing something that is incorrest in terms of grammar...I cleverly re-word it. LOL I do not claim to have perfect grammar!!!

I guess I do come off as the grammar police...but it is a pet peeve of mine. Tools and skills can only help a writer. It just provides more choices and ultimately better art!

While it is certainly true that many great songwriters had little or no grammar training, there are even more artists that ARE trained in some way...just my opinion...keep or sweep!
Thanks for the support

Emily

Emily,

At least you spell correstly.

Hi Miles
Welcome to JPF. These folks are the most helpful and honest people I know.
Interesting question you pose here.
You say you want to break into the big time. I wonder what that means to you. Because, I think that determines how you proceed. Do you only want to write songs for others to perform?(Get a cut) as they say. If so, no need to play "out". But I think it is harder if you don't. Matter of fact it might be just about impossible.
It also means a commitment to learning to write "commercial".

Do you want to write and perform your own material. That would mean building a fan base of listeners. I guess you would need to play gigs to build a really large fan base. Some success can be had on the internet.

Do you write your own music? I see you holding a guitar in your picture. So I assume you can play. Do you play well enough to do a solo performance of your material? Are you in a band?

You ask about recording your own demos. If you can sing and play well enough I think so.
But unless you are playing open mic's or venues where the big boys are going to see you how will they ever know about you.
You can't just send a CD to a record label in Nashville or anywhere else without invitation. So, how will you get your material to them?
I think these are the questions you need to ask yourself.

At this stage of your career, where are you? How good are your lyrics? Try posting a few here on the lyric forums. These folks are honest, and willing to help. If you have blatant flaws in your writing you will find out real quick.

I know I did. And I figured out that I was much happier just writing for myself. I don't write what Nashville wants. I do want folks to listen to my songs. I even want them to buy them. But given the profit margins on CD sales and digital downloads. I figure I will need to sell about 15,000 CD's before I break even on what I have invested so far. And I keep investing, LOL. But it soothes my soul.
My music is kinda like my boat. It's a hole in the water I keep pouring money into.

So, I think the important question is where do you want to go in your career. Once you define that then you can determine how to get there. Who knows, you may already be more than half way there. Wouldn't that be a treat to discover?