JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum VH1 Contest for Original Singers/Songwriters

Tamera, you do realize that even if you lose the contest, you have already given up the rights to the song and they could exploit it in any way they choose for "perpetuity", right? Also, if later on you do have a success with the song through your own efforts, they will have the legal right to swoop in and collect any money earned. From what you have stated you seem to think that it only applies to the winner.

I do not say this to argue against your position. As I stated before, I feel you have an absolute right to do with it as you wish.

Jack

Jack, Ummm... this is all really quite fun. I doubt that some "Hollywood person" is going to come and find some hole in the wall coffee house I am singing at or anyone else from the contest for that matter and really want to bother taking a few cents of dollars off my CD sale, ha if it even gets finished with this particular song. This is really humoring me. Do you think they are gonna say... excuse me, but that it that one song you sent into us and now you need to pay us because we own it? Unless you make "THE BIG TIME" I think you all are a little, like I said paranoid. Do you think that VH1 is going to take 400 videos. Keep all those songs, hunt them all down in the towns they are in. Hold out their hand for a handout. HA! Ya right? I am sitting here laughing at all this. Why would they bother? What a joke. They need to go where they can make the big bucks. Let me tell ya... it is not happening with most of those songs. Hunting down the little guy is just a waste of time. Kind of like when someone set off a bomb, do they pick a little farmhouse in Kansas by itself to set it off. Hmmm... NOT! I think they pick an area that is heavily populated where there are alot of people. We all know about that. Same with songwriting. They aren't gonna waste there time. My two cents again for the evening.

Tamera, you're correct, a lot of people are humoring themselves. That's the beauty of something like American Idol or even this VH1 thing. It's why people tune in to see the first show of AI, to watch people that think they have what it takes, and can't take no for an answer.

However, there are a few people, that realistically know what the potential for their music is. I'm not saying one way or the other about the contest and what someone else should do. People can dream, why stop them? I know for me personally how much of a pain in the ass it is to get out of a contract when something better comes along. But then, I'm not fooling myself either.

As I said, I have had a contract that came back to bite me in the ass. It's precisely why I personally won't enter something in a contest like this. It's also why I don't like signing anything without negotiating and have a lawyer look at it. I'm also getting pretty good at reading most legal things now to know certain verbage that doesn't behoove me unless I can negotiate it. Obviously with a contest like this, there is no negotiation.

Jody

Jody, I appreciate your viewpoint. Thanks for sharing. You certainly may have had more chances than I have ever had at contract things by living out in the California area. Some of us haven't been exposed to those things as much. You must have been exposed to VH1 and the WB personally. Please share with us if you have any great info on all that. Maybe we can all learn from you. Thanks!

Im new to the whole songwriting thing, so what they are saying is you write it, and even if you dont win they get it?? and they can do with it as they please, and pay you nothing??

News Flash!! Material Release for VH1. Just in case those of you have been following this thread alot. You may want to read the VH1 Material release form. Like I was telling Brian earlier. You need to have a physical signature before anything like this goes through completely. The following has been taken directly from their webpage. Below the information is a place for a signature, printed signature, and date. Just like for a legal document. That would be signed if you win and agree to release your song. And yes, it is true you would be giving up alot. That is undertood. That again is the decision made by the entrant. The videos may be exploited on the internet and what not. Most of the people don't seem to mind it. Read for yourself.

Materials Release
MTV Networks Materials Release


PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING AGREEMENT CAREFULLY. BY SIGNING BELOW YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY ALL THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT AND BY THE OFFICIAL RULES OF VH1’s “Your Music Your Lyrics” Contest.

16. You certify that the information provided herein is complete and accurate to the best of your knowledge. Falsification of any information will cause your disqualification from the Contest. You certify that you are not an employee of, nor an immediate family member of anyone employed by MTVN, Viacom International Inc., Warner Bros. or any of the judges or sponsors identified in the Official Rules.


AGREED & ACCEPTED:

___________________________
Entrant Signature

___________________________
Print Name

___________________________

Date

Hi Tamera

Everyone has to do what their heart tells them to do. You have done so, and I truly hope it works out for you...as I wish good things for everyone in our JPF community. We all have to follow our own path, trying to figure out how to get where it is that we are trying to get. Keep us posted.

Herbie

This brings up a new an interesting question which isn't directly related to this contest. Perhaps Stu, as the resident attorney here can offer his understanding.

Q: Can someone sign away rights in an agreement over the internet without actually "signing" something? I am sure there is already some type of case law surrounding that. People appear to agree to all sorts of legal documents every single day on line without signing their name. So what does the law say? Would it be a federal law since the net crosses all US borders? Would it fall under international law? Has there been any case law to suggest how courts might rule?

Q2: We've (both Stu and I) have suggested that it's quite possible these contests and websites etc. have no actual ill intent. So my question for Stu is do you see these types of lopsided contracts more to simply protect the contests/sites/networks themselves from getting sued rather than from any consideration of taking/pursuing action against the other party? I realize this is simply a theoretical discussion and not a factual one. No one knows what a given company might want to do, but I am curious Stu, since you work for all types of sides in legal matters, if some companies may draw these up really to simply protect themselves with no real thought or intent to go after someone else? (And of course we understand that once a deal is signed, they are free to change their minds later).

As for Tamera (that's your real name? Interesting.. you've never mentioned that to me in the 8 years I've known you) I'd have to put her talent as a songwriter and the quality of songs she's recorded herself in her main genre in the Top 1% of all the music we've come across in all the years of running JPF. She's being a bit modest. She's not only a previous winner for that particular song, but also has won 2 album awards, songwriter of the year and album of the year previously. She's not an amateur hack like most are who enter those contests. But even if she wasn't talented at all, I would have made the same effort to make sure she understood what was at risk. It's also very important to point out that most "contests" whether they are well known ones like The John Lennon SWC, The USA Songwriting Contest, Unisong, Billboard etc. or the various awards programs like JPF, CMA's, GMA's, Academy Awards, Grammy's etc do NOT require you to give up any rights whether you win or not. So we're not simply talking run of the mill contest here. We were actually talking to the folks at VH1/MTVN at the start of this of running the info in the newsletter. And we probably would have if not for the really unfortunate entry contract. We've covered just about ever legit contest, awards program or reasonable opportunity that has come to us in the newsletter at one time or another and certainly on a regular basis here on our site. To suggest we don't support all sorts of things is simply incorrect. We only raise red flags when the problems merit a red flag.

And FYI Tamera, we were discussing this topic here before you were involved in any way. So this wasn't simply about you entering by any stretch. On the contrary, it was after this discussion was well underway that we got your email about having entered and thought we should warn you. As they say, no good deed goes unpunished or unscorned.

Brian

Q: Can someone sign away rights in an agreement over the internet without actually "signing" something?
[This question is much broader than it seems, and it would take hours to respond to all of the various ins and outs of contract and copyright law. Each specific situation must be examined by an attorney because each case is fact-specific. However, a couple of general comments: In internet law, the Courts are currently wrestling with the issue of what constitutes a signature; In copyright law, some form of writing is required to convey rights. There is generally no specific requirement for what constitutes a "signature" to the agreement. There is case law that conveys rights when one party writes a letter to the other confirming the agreement. Courts have, in the past, interpreted certain failures to object to writings as being the same as an agreement (in other words, the second party knew from the writing what the first party expected the agreement to be, and it would be misleading for the second party not to have objected); The court will generally determine the issues of contracts and agreements on the basis of evidence of the intentions of the parties. The Court seeks to determine whether there was a "meeting of the minds" or whether there was conduct by one party which would be wrongfully misleading to the other party. If a party is wrongfully mislead and the second party is shown to have relied upon the misleading conduct to his/her/its detriment, the Court may impose a penalty in the form of enforcing the expected agreement; when contest rules are provided to the entrant, the entrant is assumed to be consenting to the contest rules when the entry is submitted. Especially where the contest literature states "by submitting your entry you agree to the contest rules."; There is still the issue of "unjust enrichment" in which the Court seeks to balance the equities between the parties, however, as you can imagine, it's a difficult uphill battle in which the contest company usually has the resources while the contest entrant does not].


Q2: We've (both Stu and I) have suggested that it's quite possible these contests and websites etc. have no actual ill intent. So my question for Stu is do you see these types of lopsided contracts more to simply protect the contests/sites/networks themselves from getting sued rather than from any consideration of taking/pursuing action against the other party?
[The contest rules are made to protect the contest company. Unfortunately, as you know, objectives seem to change when money is involved. You can't depend on the munificence of a corporate executive to compensate you by re-writing the contest rules after the money starts coming in. Just because you think you aren't being treated fairly doesn't mean you should expect the company to take money owed to its stockholders and give it to you instead, if the contest rules were clear].

Hi Brian, Thanks for writing. You said exactly what I was wanting to. I would like to know from Stu about how locked in is someone without a signature. I know from the all the contests I have entered they were really picky about having a penned signature. None of them would even accept a copy of an original. That is why I thought it was safe to do things this way. I figured if it came down to it it would require a legit signature. Otherwise...a person could get on a computor and with the right information enter someone into a contest wether they liked it or not because they believed in them. They could hit all the right buttons and walla. What if that person did not agree to the terms? No one saw anyone face to face. Nothing was signed in pen. How would that hold up in court Stu? I would love to know. I sure wish I had the money to go to law school. I would go in an instant. I would love it. Thanks! Can't wait to hear from you.

Oh, and by the way. Yes.. I am Tamera, by the birth certificate. But I go by Tammy Edwards. No secret there. I have been to several JPF awards shows. Loved every minute of it. You can check out my site at: TammyEdwards.com It is still under contruction. Once I get Dreamweaver and flash I can really get it going. I don't like to plug myself but since everyone else is, I will do it just this once.

Have a great day!
T

Hi Stu, Looks like we were writing at the same time. Well, I see your point. Why does that law have to be so complicated? Ha I think they do that to make us frustrated. You are right when it comes to who has the money behind them. I know that all too well. I lost two cases in the courtroom that should have easily swung my way. It is just not fair for the little guy most the time. I am afraid that wether it be me or most likely someone else that wins the VH1 contest it would be an uphill battle to change the way things were worded and carried out in that contract. Perhaps those contests aren't the best ones to enter. I may stick to ones that are on the safer side.