JPF Home Page Forums Lyric and MP3 Feedback Lyric Feedback Forum 3 Upgrading Soon: Feedback?

Rules about posting won't solve any problems, but will create a lot of new ones. The best evidence of that I can give is that we've never had any reason to even think about having posting rules anywhere else on the site. And guess what? Short of some spammers who would never follow a rule in the first place, we've not really had any problems with over-posting or anything else. A lot of these concerns really only seem to exist on the Lyric boards. Not sure why that is exactly, but it's a fact. The complaints/problems/issues we get elsewhere have little to nothing in common to the problems that crop up here. Ironically we've never had a single complaint to date of any kind whatsoever on the MP3 board. I hope I don't jinx it. So it's not an obvious answer like "telling people what you think about their stuff is the problem." And anyone who ventures to the General, Songwriter, Musician or Industry boards (and even occassionally the Mentor board) knows there's plenty of heated arguments happening on those all the time. But it's always different than the negative things that have come up historically on the Lyric Boards. It may be no more complicated than the fact that those boards get more posts and at a certain point, problems come up. If that's the case then finding ways to improve and increase activity will turn out badly if they succeed.

We do put a lot of thought into all this. And for those making statements that the Lyric Boards aren't moderated, ask yourself how long a typical problem goes one before someone intercedes? I think you'll find there's a LOT of publicly silent moderators on the lyric boards. In fact, it's the amount of email we get from Lyric users/members that often causes me to raise these issues here and no where else on the boards.

The feedback is useful. I may post a general discussion on how best to utilize the Lyric boards when we have the new ones up. (They allow for things like Sticky Posts that always stay at the top). We haven't updated yet because the people at the software company haven't been responsive due to the holidays and also because we have a few concerns we haven't had answered such as properly transfering existing posts without losing search engine placements for them all. If we discover that there's some issue with that, we'll archive this entire board and launch a new one separate of it going forward. We don't want to lose these old posts. It's a great history of a grassroots movement that I think will be more important in a decade or two than people may realize it is right now.

Thanks for the feedaback,

Brian

Hi again Brian,

I just thought of one more thing this morning. Are you aware that Nashville producers are telling folks (they told me as well as the other posters here who visited their studios) that we should NOT post our lyrics to a lyric forum.

The premise was something like this. If you post your rookie lyric to a lyric board, all someone has to do is change your fresh idea up into their own words and wala, they've got your 'potential hit song' in their posession. One producer from _________Studios said it DOES happen all the time. He said he knew staff writers who regularly visisted such lyric board sites and fished for ideas (well something close to that).

Me, I don't listen to his advice since I don't live my life based on Fear. I'd rather risk someone stealing an idea than living with my fists closed.

But, perhaps that 'fact' (staff writers making off with unpublished/unsigned writers' valuable ideas) has gotten out and has scared a lot of folks off. Personally, I think that has had as much to do with the decrease in the amount of posters to the lyric boards as anything else. JMO.

rd



[This message has been edited by royaldghtr (edited 11-25-2006).]

So glad you mention that fact RD...it's been a discussion from time to time on this forum and there are varying responses. I'd love to know what will keep the paid vultures from stealing songs from struggling artists just to pass it along to someone who doesn't need it and to take credit for what is not theirs. It makes you wonder when you read a lyric with unique characteristics and then see it be a hit song from someone else a year but with slight variations. Wish there was a way! Even with a copyright it doesn't seem like we're immune to this risk.

I don't know that it happens often enough though..I only had one lyric that I thought was used for some other persons song. It was about mothers be good to your precious daughters and a year later a song comes out about fathers be good to your daughters? I wonder if the artists even know that their scouts are stealing ideas from others?

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My Sound Click

In a time of universal deceit, speaking truth is a revolutionary act", George Orwell

MySpace

Dang Nabe !
I like that song too . Not so much , if I knew that he'd (or someone had) clipped the thing from a friend of mine. Think I'd post an MP3 of what you wrote on every MP3 site you could find , then when some Lawyer type comes along and says "You better take that down , you're infringing on a copyright." you just say back "see you in court , and do your homework real good , hear." And when the high-priced Lawyers do such a convincing job of proving similarity to the judge , you ask about origination and bring out your copy of what you posted with a date and a copyright notice and ask the Judge "Where do we go from here?"
Best of luck...,
Pete

Gosh Pete, I just might call on you to represent me! What a strategy! See, I'm very naive on such matters and as we speak I'm trying to get the previous owner of this house to take care of what he said he would before the purchase...he's refused my certified mail even and I've given an attorney $500 and it's rising for the next step -district court another $300 needed...I hate doing this sort of thing and it's costly as heck.

The idea that I had for precious daughters(I Know You Didn't Know) which is what I titled it was probably just an idea because the verses and chorus are totally different but the idea is definitely the same and you can't copyright an idea or a title is what I understand. But I could ruffle a few feathers I suppose? Thanks for your support.

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My Sound Click

In a time of universal deceit, speaking truth is a revolutionary act", George Orwell

MySpace

[This message has been edited by Linda A (edited 11-25-2006).]

Hi Brian,

What would be nice would be a search where not only "Subject" but "Topic Starter" was a search parameter so that all that person's lyric postings would come up.

Thanks,
Terry

Hi Brian,

I wanted to take some time to really weigh my thoughts before I responded to this thread. Being one of the few who were around just about from the start of this forum, I have seen a lot of changes, and a great deal of evolution here...some positive, some not so positive. My reflections are merely what I feel I have observed over the past 8 years here.

First of all, thank you from the bottom of my heart for all you do for JPF and for those of us who love this place. You know a lot of the background of why I feel so strongly about this place so I won't go into detail on it here. I would rather focus on the questions you posed for us to respond to.

The circle changes all the time. We have had a lot of really fine writers who have posted here during that time. Most of them came here for assistance with fine tooth combing their writing. Some were total novices but folks who took their writing seriously. As some of them improved their writing skills and moved on to the next level where they were getting material signed, their agents have told them to not post their songs publicly (as has been mentioned). Blake Hill is one example of that. A number of other writers have had circumstances happen in their lives where songwriting had to take a back seat. Tink, Judy Hollier, Pam Hurley, Rachel Kerr have all fallen prey to that situation. Some of them reappear briefly from time to time, but these were folks who posted a LOT on a regular basis. Graham Henderson is now an administrator at SongRamp...so he isn't posting here much anymore either. Dawg passed away. When you talk about why the lyric forums are losing steam, I think this is one of the reasons. A lot of those who spent the most time here in the past are not posting here anymore or only irregularly.

This place really does become a community. When you share your innermost thoughts like you do in writing lyrics, it is bound to happen that you like the way a certain writer writes/thinks...and you tend to become friends if you hang around long enough. Some of us even liked each other enough to want to meet in real time...and Pineyfest was born. We STILL like each other...some..LOL even moreso now. If that means we are a clique...so be it. I think the fact that the folks who ARE here tend to keep coming back...at least for long periods of time attests to the fact that the doors here are open to anyone who chooses to be here and play nice. If someone comes here with an attitude....they probably won't stay long...and yep...they might not feel comfy here. We can't and should not be expected to take responsibility for anyone's actions or decisions but our own. We can choose to hang out...or not. If someone chooses to leave...that is their choice.

Taking a look at the names posting here now...I don't think there are more than a handful of us who have been posting here for more than a couple of years. This IS a good place with good people. I think the fact that when the challenge was posted here to help raise money to upgrade the boards, a huge percentage of the money that was sent to you, Brian came from the folks here on Lyric Three. We believe in this place and want to see it keep going. I could be wrong, but I don't think that same kind of commitment happens on the other boards. The other forums are kept alive based on the sheer numbers of posters. Here, it is a different story. The lyric forums are based on a lot of posts by a more limited number of VERY dedicated individuals. If we are only worried about numbers here...then even a psycho has value in that some of us would go check to see what weirdness was being perpetrated "over there" on a regular basis! If, on the other hand, we are more concerned with people getting their needs met for high quality insights on their song lyrics, then that is a totally different issue.

A lot of the regulars who used to be the life blood of this place are no longer around and I don't believe we are seeing the same level of time being devoted to in-depth commentary here. I am NOT talking about the "oh I like this" or "this isn't my cuppa tea" type of critiques...but rather the caliber of insights where folks really feel as though they are getting HELP with improving their overall writing skills. In order to do that kind of critique, you actually have to know something about songwriting. To be quite honest, I see a lot of opinions here but I don't see many critiques that are based on much more than that. The camaraderie and chit chat is great for establishing trust in each other but doesn't do much for helping us write better song lyrics. If I sense that someone is serious about wanting their songs to become commercial, I will do everything I can to help them...but with all the things I have going on in my own life at the moment, I no longer have the time I used to have to spend nursing lyrics for folks who don't take it seriously. Then again, some folks don't want the in-depth critiques...and that is fine. This board is here for everyone...not just me...but I'm just saying that I cannot afford to spend an hour on a critique that I hope might help really help somebody only to find out that they only wanted some kudos and had no intention of changing anything anyway. LOL

Personally, I am at a point where I am my own harshest critic and I know when I need help with a certain line or phrase. I no longer post all my stuff here because I don't have the time to do all the responding that I feel I need to do when people offer their ideas. I send my stuff to a few select folks to check over because I know they will give me the sharp knife treatment and not just tell me what they think I want to hear. I also have found a circle of pros here in Nashville who will review my material for its commercial potential. I need that right now because "close" isn't good enough anymore.

I don't have a problem with merging back into one board. I don't think that much will change. I started off on the first forum and only moved to this one at your request, Brian when things started going kafloey on the earlier ones. By and large folks will go wherever the "action" is...and at the moment, it is here on Three.

I do not like the idea of anonymous posting nor anonymous ratings. I think that having to put your name out there tends to keep folks a bit more civil. There would be just too much opportunity for abuse in a system like that. It also allows the writer the opportunity to get some clarification regarding WHY. I don't much care if someone likes or dislikes a song...what I DO care about is why...and how can I fix it. There would be no option for that...so how can learning occur? That would defeat the purpose.

Nor do I like the idea of splintering off folks for "inspirational" or any other genre-specific options. Keeping us all in one place ensures that the most eyes have the opportunity to see the most diverse lyrics. We can always pick and choose which ones to respond to. Shayne can attest to how difficult it is to keep a lyric forum alive when it is focused on just one kind of lyric. I think the mix keeps the place healthy. Also...time is our most precious commodity. For those of us who still have to work to support our songwriting addiction....we don't have the luxury of spending a lot of our limited time doing 'the board thing'. I generally come to Lyric Three on a daily basis...sometimes more than once a day but will sometimes check out the other boards, especially if someone else says there is something I need to read or check out.

As for Cat's idea of the place to dissect hit songs...JPF Mentors Pat and Pete Luboff do a Monday evening session that does that specific thing. You might consider contacting them. If you'd like their email address, please let me know.

I am not in favor of "rules" but there are some general guidelines that would definitely help new posters get the most from their experience here. It seems to fall to one of us old timers to have to pass along the info once the new poster has already made the mistake of posting their first dozen lyrics in one day. That puts them on the defensive immediately....like why wasn't that info somewhere I could see it? If it was posted as "recommendations for getting the most from your lyrical postings", who would be offended by that? You can even include a statement that these are NOT RULES to keep the most ardent among us from trying to beat a newbie (or anyone else) over the head with them. Since I write a lot of training manuals, I'd even volunteer to develop a set of guidelines (and post them here for review of course. LOL) if you are willing to consider that option.

One last thing I wanted to mention is that when I first discovered JPF, it seemed as though the organization was focused pretty much on songs and songwriting, so it felt like home to me. However, after reading an interview in which you indicated that the focus of JPF has now shifted to performers and artists (many of whom do not write their own material), it feels like that shift has pretty much relegated us songWRITERS to second class citizens. While I may be the only one to admit openly to feeling that...I know there are a lot more who think it but won't say it.

I hope these observations and comments are of some value as feedback for you, Brian. You know I will continue to be one of the most ardent supporters of JPF.

Sincerely,
Bobbie

Hi Brian. One Board would work with the only draw back being from what I can see is how quickly any post would drop down the list.

Douglas

Hello all, I just wanted to say that a friend and I recently joined you. We each posted lyrics in the first forum (didn't know why there were three), and we were the only ones to respond to them. I have commented on others' lyrics there, I like to read and comment on lyrics when I do not know the writer. Wish other writers felt that way.

Brenda,
Welcome to jpf , we were having trouble with board one (running slow , crashing and stuff ) board two came into existance and the same with board three. Even board three has crashed since and a new site (altogether) is on the way , hang in there...help is on the way !
It's nice to hear from you and most unfortunate that your lyric hasn't gotten any attention , for my part , I've gone to the other boards and posted comments and crits and sugs and such and to some extent have gotten some feedback , but ; when a higher percentage of feedback tends to be nadda , or people leave altogether , I started feeling like I wasn't welcome there and didn't go there very often , at most , just to see what's there.
Looking forward to seeing more of your work when we go to the new place , there seems to be a holding back on posting right now , I'm thinking it's in anticipation of the new site , one way , or another.
Agree with you about anonimity , but ; if someone wants that they can get another screenname and be as anon as they want.
Nice meeting you ,
Hope you hang in,
Pete

Bobbie,
I guess it would be a shame for there to be musicians here on the site looking for lyrics with us being lyricists looking for musicians to sing and play our songs and not going through Nashville and all.
I was being a little sarchastic
Pete

Hi Pete,

Thank you for clarifying that you were being sarcastic. How would I have ever known that?

As I clearly said in my epistle above, this site is for everyone, not just me...but I thought I was entitled to have (and express) an opinion just like everyone else here. Folks come here for a variety of reasons. Some obviously come just for the camaraderie of like souls. It's all about choices. I chose to leave Colorado and move to Nashville. Not everyone has that freedom...and Nashville certainly is not the only place for folks who are serious about our songwriting...but, again, that was my choice because for the type of songs I write, this place is the most 'accessible'. For me, not being a performer AT ALL, I realized that if I was serious about getting cuts, I needed to be willing to make some tough decisions and not rely solely on people "finding me". I needed to BE where there was the best chance of finding cowriters and composers, of having access to publishers, my PRO (ASCAP), and a matter of being as involved as possible in the industry. My choice was to move here and I have not regretted that. However, I know that not everybody here is as serious about getting cuts as I am. Songwriting can be a very rewarding hobby if only as a way of finding our "voice" and expressing our thoughts and feelings. Nothing wrong with that. I think that is where most of us started.

There are a lot more "indie" artists out there than ones signed to major labels. I am delighted that some of those indie artists come here looking for songs. I've had a few cuts come from that...as have others like Ritt, Emily, Harriet, Kaley and Tampa Stan...and none of those folks live in Nashville!! But each of them is serious about taking their music to that next level and is working hard to make that happen.

Not a week goes by that someone doesn't email me asking for specific assistance...and I have always responded to their requests with as much detail as I possibly can. Just this week, someone asked me for help with some copyright issues. Last week it was a request to help figure out a contract. Also last week someone asked about how to reach publishers. I have never pretended to have all the answers but clearly, some folks have picked up on the fact that I will try to help them if I can. I think most folks here have pretty much figured out what I am all about...so if it makes you or anyone else feel better to take pot shots..LOL take your best shot. I trust that most folks will figure out the underlying issues. It sure doesn't take being in Nashville to see that. LOL

Hugs,
Bobbie

Bobbie,
I didn't intend to take any potshots. I percieved you as saying that opinions didn't matter (especially uneducated opinions like mine) ie. ("they're only opinions") . I thought opinions are what sell records / CD's / MP3's , since people buy , or don't buy them based on wether they like or dislike them . So , to express an opinion along those lines , I would think , would be helpful to someone who would like to know how well , what they had written , would be recieved .
I have a great deal of respect for your opinion and a great deal of respect for the work you put into the crits you have written for me and others on the board. Yes , absolutely , your opinion does matter and I have mentioned your style of critting in discussions , from time to time . I hope you havn't percieved that as taking potshots at you. I feel bad for you when you do that much work and get back a comment like , whatever...or something that ammounts to it.
I've tried , recently , to give big long in depth crits . They havn't gone over well , far as I can tell. I guess I'll just leave the in depth critting to the educated folk that read the books...
Hugs,
Pete

I'm going to comment because Pete joined this board almost one year after I did and his postings are going to beat mine soon if I don't try to stay ahead of him.

I'm really glad to get to know everyone who is commenting on here. It helps with future communication. And Pete, haven't you ever heard of common sense being better than book smart? In this case having some book knowledge does help but I think as you do...we buy the music so our likes and dislikes must amount to something!

I have a handout that a college professor gave to his students that deals with this sort of subject. It was given to us so that we don't become so heavy headed with education that we forget we are human too and that our common sense should not be placed second! I'll email it to you and please share it with the world!

Linda

Hi Pete,

Opinions are like, ummmm..noses..we all have one. Of course opinions matter. That is why when I write something new I always ask family and friends if it is working...and...why I ALSO ask folks inside the industry for their opinions too. The big difference is that the industry folks can probably tell me WHY something is or is not working. That part of it only comes along with years of listening and analyzing lyrics, music and production of songs. There truly is no substitute for common sense, but by the same token, there is also no substitute for the discipline that is necessary to truly understand songs. That doesn't come from a book...but there are books out there that can definitely help...provided people are sufficiently motivated to want to learn the WHYs of songwriting. At this point in my own professional evolution, I need to understand those WHYs in order to strengthen my writing.

The opinions of everyday folks are important. They truly do represent the buying public. The real issue, however, is that a song will never GET to them unless it passes through a lot of hands first...and THOSE are the folks whose opinions we have to deal with to get a song cut by a major label artist.

As for feeling sorry for me when folks dismiss my lengthy commentary I wouldn't be overly concerned. I rarely do that more than once on any individual. Not everybody is here for the same reasons. I do my best to help just like you and everyone else. But..I also learn quickly who is receptive to suggestions and who isn't. Sure doesn't mean that every idea or suggestion that I or anyone else offers needs to be taken!! YOWZA..that would be a terrible mistake. It is always up to the writer to decide if a suggestion improves the lyric or not. Every person here is valuable...and their opinions all matter...even yours!

As for lengthy critiques...it certainly isn't the size that matters. It's the quality of the experience. LOL

Hugs,
Bobbie

[This message has been edited by Bobbie Gallup (edited 11-26-2006).]

Bobbie,

Actually probably 98% of the people who have ever sent us music that are "artists" also wrote their own songs meaning they are also equally songwriters meaning probably 90% of our entire membership are songwriters with 10% being industry and a small percentage of artist only types. So I am not sure where your comment to the contrary comes from. It is true, however, that we are more of an "artist" organization simply because there's been historically very few entities out there supporting artists and tons that support songwriters. That said due to our size we're still by a large large margin the largest songwriters organization in the world and I think I even mentioned that we still do a ton of things for songwriters (essentially everything we've ever done in the past since day one plus more) and in my opinion we certainly do more things for all members of the grassroots music community than anyone else, with our without a fee.

Brian

I just went back and looked at who the donations came from. Though the lyric boards are well represented, it appears the the Tampa Chapter and non-Lyric board users are right there and may actually outnumber purely Lyric board users. (A few do all 3 like Tampa Stan). In any case I don't think it is as lopsided as you think. In addition, we make most our money from Roadtrips and sadly we've never been able to get Lyric board users to come out to Roadtrip events. Perhaps after a year off of Roadtrips due to health problems and the awards we'll have better luck getting folks out in 2007.

Brian

Hi Brian,

Thanks so much for the response. I was merely going by your words in this interview:
Indie-Music: "Is JPF for all musicians/players? Or do you focus mostly on songwriters?"
Brian Austin Whitney: "JPF started as a songwriter organization because there really weren't any "musician" organizations to model ourselves on at the start. But we quickly transitioned into more and more artist focused activities and now in truth we're probably more of an artist organization than a pure songwriting organization such as Muses Muse or NSAI."

For a person like myself who is not and has no illusions or delusions of ever being a performing artist, that comment woke me up to the fact that a lyricist isn't really considered an "artist". It may account for why so few lyricist types show up for the Road Trips which are all about showcasing performing talent. It may also be why lyricists feel welcome at Pineyfest because the workshop environment helps ensure that they will be part of a scenario designed to help them learn and grow and that they don't have to perform to feel like they belong. Don't mean to take anything away from the Road Trip showcases...just pointing out one possible reason not many lyricists participate.

I see that a lot more folks have now contributed to the board fix fund. Back when I last checked it in mid July (right after posting the challenge here on Lyric 3 and just before Pineyfest) the folks here really were the primary contributors. Now a number of other folks have stepped up to the plate and it's not as lopsided...but you gotta admit the folks here led the way.

Any response to my offer to draft some "recommendations?"

Hugs,
Bobbie

Brian,

since you may well check this again rather soon, is what terry asked for possible? a means by which to sort songs posted by writer? gosh that would be great... I also wanted to say that reguardless of what JPF is specifically catering to... i call it home. i can be here in iraq, i can be here in the states, i never get to spend the time i need to post as much as i want, but i am sure everyone understands.. i leave again (4th time) in feb. gosh i hate this war...

-steve

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"if a man claims to be a leader, but he has no followers, then he is just a guy out for a walk."

-Marines Handbook
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/stephenbixby

Bobby Gallup: ..." after reading an interview in which you indicated that the focus of JPF has now shifted to performers and artists (many of whom do not write their own material), it feels like that shift has pretty much relegated us songWRITERS to second class citizens. While I may be the only one to admit openly to feeling that...I know there are a lot more who think it but won't say it."

Bobby, songwriters have always been and will always be second fiddle to the artist. But we are reconciled to that aren't we? Wouldn't most of us be completely content to be sitting in a restraunt with our song playing on the radio and NOT feel the urge to stand up and flap our hands and say "look at me, I wrote that!" For us it's more like the proud Momma watching her kid kick the winning soccer goal. We can't take credit for the goal or the skill or strength it took to win but it is our kid. The truth is that it is the artist and only the artist who manifest the song. Until then, it is a thought, an idea, a potential- but not song.

There is a whole other world right here on this website that is largely unexplored and I include myself amoung those who haven't left shore but my observation about lyric 3 forum and the mp3 forum is that each have a hell of a lot to teach the other. Many lyric only folks need a heaping dose of reality training in the musical arts and most of the musicians in the mp3 forum are just plain inattentive to the lyric-

And about the possibility that lurkers are ripping off ideas right and left? No doubt in my mind. The ripper-offers are skilled craftsman who can strip you clean and you won't even know you were robbed. Why? Because they are serious craftsmen with years of experience. It isn't their hobby. They are like master carpenters building houses on the "lots" you leave when you post. The lot is the central idea- you've got it and they can build on it. You don't stand a chance because they have

1. blueprints (commercial song form),
2. Tools (musicians, cowriters, studios etc)
3. Materials (metaphors, rhymes insider informatiion)
and eventually, they have the deed to you property.

We can beat them but not unless we are as good as they are. That's why I think we need less "attaboy" comments and more HONEST CRITICISM.

I'm not a fool about what goes on in the forums. I know that it is part social club and part serious songwriting. I wish it could be separated somehow but that is not realistic so we have what we have and as long as we are learning, growing, sharing and hopefully succeeding, then it has a meaningful purpose.

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Music is spiritual. The music business is not.
* Van Morrison

[This message has been edited by nashvillecat (edited 11-28-2006).]

I know of a Christian forum that has levels of crit. When you post, you declare (simply by typing the numeral next to your title) how serious you want the crit to be.

"1" means be gentle, this song is being written for fun or personal expression
"2" means be objective, this song is being written for use at a party, school or church gathering, give to a loved one, etc
"3" means be brutal, this song is being written for the commercial market

They also have (you'll LOVE this 'un Tallguy! ) a means for keeping up with your crits. You get credits for each crit. They are right next to your name for all to see.

You earn 5 credits per crit.
You PAY 10 credits per post.

How this is all accomplished automatically is way over my head, but I think it's an exceptionally good policy.

Ya Ben,

Excellent, non feather-ruffling nemesis!

TT

Hey Cat! I'm wondering about this dose of music arts training that I know I need...how do we get that without attending college again? And if I'm only a lyricist and would like to honestly critique a lyric that is intended for commercial...how am I taken seriously if I don't have formal training? Lets say I only have training from friends here and other forums and my own writing experience. Is it enough that I know what makes sense and what doesn't?

What constitutes serious feedback?

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My Sound Click

In a time of universal deceit, speaking truth is a revolutionary act", George Orwell

MySpace

Cat,

Nicely stated!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

Well, Nashvillecat,

I guess I still believe in the story of David and Goliath. I don't wear that suit of armour (master craftsman). It's way to big for me right now but I still have my five loaves and two fish. Working on that slingshot. But, even it's got a ways to go yet.

I agree with what you are saying. The 'giant' is big. He is big. But...


rd

Hi Linda and anyone else interested in music education

Here's a link for free online lessons jm


http://www.berkleeshares.com/

Linda, of course I am not lurking around the threads trying to decide who writes lyrics only. People tell us that themselves. You just did. And a lyrics only person can be sucessful but they have to be working with a musician. The saddest thing to hear is the lyrisist who attempts to put the lyric to music without any understanding of music. But working with a musician, the lyrisist is involved in the craft of turning the word into a song.

You don't have to go back to college to get formal training. All you have to do is listen to you favorite song and try to recreate it. You have to LISTEN intensely to the music that is already created. Identify the harmony, the base line, the drums, the various instruments. Use your $100 keyboard and pick out the melody that you love. And Frankly, if you are unwilling or unable to do this, songwriting is probably not your calling.

This has been said before but everyone on this forum should try it a least once: Take a melody that you love and write a lyric that fits it perfectly. You know the melody is working so now you can see if you really can "write" a song. So what if you can't pitch it- if your lyrics are compelling and you have moved someone (even if it is just yourself) then you know that you have in you the craft to make more than a poem- you can make a song. Now those great melodies- where do they come from?- well that's the great mystery even to the composer- it is magic! and greater magic is when an inspired lyric is woven into an inspired melody... so to quote a line from Dr. Doctor Zhivago, "It's a gift"

Wow Cat! you've impressed me with the quote from Dr. Zhivago, my favorite flick of all time! I have to watch it annually. Well I've reworded a melody from John Denver and know what you're saying. I've tried to understand music many times and just don't get it...I'm not sure if it's because I'm older and don't easily absorb new information like when my brain was a newer sponge.

This most likely explains why I've only been able to match my lyrics up with existing music tracks...I make them fit and make them sound like a match. I've met up with musicians before and can't get it so the musicians move on-I'm too much work is what I figure.

Joice, I'll follow the link and thanks...it's probably what I've already tried to know. It's not that I'm not willing. It's that we all have certain strengths and you could say I have a learning disability when it comes to knowing music, math and science. I love words though!

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My Sound Click

In a time of universal deceit, speaking truth is a revolutionary act", George Orwell

MySpace

This is a great idea. Brian, can we do this?

Linda, you are a good sport. It sounds like you need to team up with a musician who can spin a melody. Is there a songwriting association in your neck of the woods?

Dang, glad someone finally acknowledged my post on what I think is an imminently fair system.

Neglected to mention, newcomers are given 20 credits when they join, which allows them 2 posts before they have to start crittin'. After that...no give...no get to post.

Hey Benny!

I seconded that idea on my last post too !

TT

interesting reading from a pro critiquer

http://www.lyricalline.com/songwriters/

I think since I was quoted out of context of a long interview, I'd at least include the complete question and answer that Bobby only partially quoted. If anyone is going to be pissed off at what I said in an interview, at least know what I actually said:
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Indie-Music: Is JPF for all musicians/players? Or do you focus mostly on songwriters?

Brian Austin Whitney: JPF started as a songwriter organization because there really weren't any "musician" organizations to model ourselves on at the start. But we quickly transitioned into more and more artist focused activities and now in truth we're probably more of an artist organization than a pure songwriting organization such as Muses Muse or NSAI. That said, we have one of the most active songwriting critique and feedback sites in the world on our message boards. But we spend a lot of time helping artists develop their contacts, learn their craft and the business behind it, learn how to sell CD's get gigs, book tours and avoid bad deals as well. We have an amazing array of songwriting educators on board to help educate songwriters and we have a wide array of events and activities designed to help artists and industry folks. I think we offer something for everyone. And when we don't offer something, we often refer folks to our friend's sites who do (like Indie-Music for example).
----------------------------
I answered her question because she thought, as many do, that we ONLY supported songwriters and not artists at all. Since that's not true, I stated we were more of an artist organization than PURELY a songwriter organization. I have worked very hard to be a place that artists felt didn't ignore THEM. The truth is that biggest fault of NSAI and other songwriting only sites is that none of them spend much or perhaps any time helping artists. Since 98% of our artist members are ALSO songwriters I thought it was very important to help them in ways no one else even tries to.

That's the context of that response that was only partially quoted above. (The entire interview is linked on the general message board).

As for drafting guidelines for the new message boards, I am perfectly fine with that. We'd have done that much earlier but this ancient board doesn't allow for things like Sticky Notes.

Brian

By the way, Songwriters are hardly second class citizens in the world of organizations. Artists are CLEARLY the second class citizens. NSAI is a songwriter org. SGA is a songwriter org. NSA was a songwriter org. Muses Muse is a songwriter community. Those are/were the top dogs in my opinion outside of JPF. We were the first large org. to even notice that Artists ALSO needed the same type of support that an NSAI offered to songwriters. That said (as I did in the interview) we're ALSO by far the largest and most active SONGWRITER org in the world. We do both. We do it for free. It's shocking for someone in JPF to feel shortchanged. Even within our gigantic music awards we added a specific category SOLELY for the lyricist community here. You can't be considered unless you come on here and post your lyric on the Message Boards. We don't do that for the artists on the MP3 board do we?

Read my article in songwriters market (my 4th article in 5 years there, more than anyone else in their history). It's solely about songwriting and how to break in from anywhere. Suggesting I've somehow abandoned or relegated the songwriting community to second class is just plain wrong. Our biggest awards at the music aware are the Male/Female Artist of the Year Awards, the Lyricist of the Year Award, Songwriter of the Year Award, Album of the Year Award and Song of the Year Award. Half of those are for Songwriters and half of those are for artists. I don't notice any short shrift for songwriters there.

Brian

I am not sure if the new message boards allow for some type of point system. The reality is that 1 truly great lyric review/critique is far more valuable than 10 pats on the back. If we had that system, that's what those who didn't want to help out would do. Just post garbage simply to get their "quota" in. That's not a good way to get quality reviews. The good way to do it is when someone is abusing the system over the long term (versus the short term or early on when they start posting) that others simply show them polite indifference on their own lyrics. Do that as a group and they'll either get involved or start offering their own feedback and thoughts.

Most new folks are not qualified to offer much quality critiques. That's why they come here. They don't need a quota sitting in their face while they try to learn what a good lyric even is. On the other hand, if someone is here who has been posting for 4-5-6-7-8 solid years without giving back.. it's bizarre that ANYONE would ever respond or read one of their posts. But people still do. I am all for new ways to encorage participation but I think if it can easily be manipulated (in this case simply by saying 1 line of response to something) then it doesn't actually solve the problem.

Perhaps if we develop some guidelines as Bobby has suggested that teach someone how they can offer useful feedback, even as an amateur just getting started, then we can solve the problem and increase the useful feedback at the same time. I think education and natural community interaction is the answer.

Brian

nashvillecat wrote .......................................

"We can beat them but not unless we are as good as they are. That's why I think we need less "attaboy" comments and more HONEST CRITICISM.

....... exactly !

Lyric forums are great for building confidence. But unless we are honest with our thoughts of a particular lyric, we are building confidence only with brief praise. We need to work on our weaknesses. And they need to be pointed out to us so we can work on them.

We should feel at ease telling a fellow writer that their current draft is "a train wreck", as long we can explain why.

What's working should be pointed out as well, and why it's working.

Giving honest in-depth critiques can help the writer doing the critique as much as the writer receiving the critique. We draw on all our knowledge of the crafting of a lyric when we give an in-depth critique. It's tough to look at our own work in the same way, especially while we still have weaknesses to work on.

Quality critiques make a quality forum.
And draws/forms quality writers.

As far as counting reply to post ratio, is concerned, it's a good idea to crit 3 or 4 for every lyric we post. But I'd say looking for lyrics that need the most revision should be the ones we take the most time to critique. Most new writers don't know how to critique in-depth, so we should cut them some slack for the first few months.

Anyhow, part of the thread topic is how we might encourage folks to visit both forums if we have 2. Muses Muse and JPF are different animals as far as the types of lyrics posted in general. But we have members at JPF that also post at Muses Muse as well. And vice versa. Then, we have those who post on only one or the other. Both are nice sites, no question.

But, on a one forum site, the mythical clique forms. The Indie/Alternative writers "group", and the commercial writers do as well. Now, there are exceptions; writers who write both commercial and indie lyrics interact with both types of writers.

The numbered lyric forum is, as said, a bad idea as far as new members. They are eager, and Lyrics 1 is where they are likely to post, which means less reads. One forum would solve that.

But, imo two specically named and described lyric forums would boost membership and the quality of critiques.

Commercial Lyric Forum: post your commercial lyric here for feedback on craftsmanship and hit potential.

Indie/Alternative Lyric Forum: post your noncomm lyrics here for feedback from fellow writers. Anything goes here. Novelty, comedy, folk, blues, protest, anti-folk, new age, world beat, rock, etc.

Some commercial writers won't spend much time helping an alt rock writer, and vice versa. Mixing them on one forum will never change that.
And I can't see why those who write both noncomm and commercial lyrics would not use both forums. I'm on dial-up and it's not a problem jumping around the site.

jmo

Either way, lot's of valid suggestions from everyone and when the dust settles we'll all still be here. The cowboys will be trying to rope that star and the singer-sonwriter will be trying to write the one that's never been written before.



[This message has been edited by TonyW (edited 11-29-2006).]

Brian, I looked at the thread earlier, before your last post. After posting my last, I see I repeated some what you said.

So, anyhow, I agree about the brief back pat value.

Tony

POSTED BY TONY W............................

"...We should feel at ease telling a fellow writer that their current draft is "a train wreck", as long we can explain why.

What's working should be pointed out as well, and why it's working.

Giving honest in-depth critiques can help the writer doing the critique as much as the writer receiving the critique. We draw on all our knowledge of the crafting of a lyric when we give an in-depth critique. It's tough to look at our own work in the same way, especially while we still have weaknesses to work on..."
............................................


This is well-stated Tony. I especially agree that tough, in-depth, honest critiques are best received when "sandwiched" with some positive observation(s). A few here have come across as not so much needing the "positive comments". But, in every professional communication seminar/class/book I've ever taken/read the presenters/authors have convinced me of the enormous value of "sandwiching" the negative with the positive, when offering constructive criticism.

However, a general "pat on the back" does not qualify for explaining to the writer EXACTLY what IS working and WHY. So, I agree that general, 'polite', packpats mean very little to the serious songwriter, myself included.

But to imply that songwriters should hear/give only/mostly negative critiques tends to develop writers' 'skin' as thick as alligators IMO. I may be in the minority among those in the songwriting community on this point, but I'm not in the real world. I believe first and foremost songwriters need to be/stay human.

rd

Edited to explain more fully my specific position on the topic of what constitutes the most helpful kind of critique. My opinion FWIW.



[This message has been edited by royaldghtr (edited 11-30-2006).]

I do think that comparing the various songwriter organizations is like apples and oranges; there are some really good groups and they all do very different things. JPF offers many great unique opportunites -- for free-- that no one else does...but....some things are also worth paying for, IMO. I'd pay for JPF if I had to!!

For instance, in the Los Angeles area, Songsalive, and SongNet, ASCAP and Los Angeles Women in Music are very active all offer some great opportunites. My own personal experience with some of them has been quite positve.

It's my hope that the new message boards will have some kind of specific guidelines.
I feel strongly that guidelines could serve as a clear way of letting people know that the lyric boards are for lyrics and critiques only, not a platform for political
issues or an advertising venue!

Brian, I totally agree with you that it's a good idea to stop responding to lyrics that are posted by those who never give back to the boards.... I also use that standard when I post on the other forums. There are some long time members that never put energy into supporting their fellow musicians/writers, and I have stopped reponding to their posts and threads as well.

Emily



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http://emilysanders.net

[This message has been edited by Emily Sanders (edited 11-30-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Emily Sanders (edited 11-30-2006).]

Tony,

We agree on most of what you said except your definition of Commercial and Indie/Alt. You listed a bunch of genres and it suggests that there aren't commercial lyrics being written in those genres which is not at all true. I am not sure what you think of as "commercial?" Country? Alternative Rock songs probably sell as much as Country songs. Though I am not sure I agree that any distinction should be made at risk of suggesting someone is a second class citizen, I certainly would NEVER suggest one genre was less professional or commercial than another. If anything we've learned and proven just the opposite is true with our awards. The song that won Best Alternative Song this year is extremely commercial (in fact, Jessy Moss, the artist behind it has been on several major label already and is ahead of the commercial curve. Her song was written and recorded several years ago but right now songs just like her style are all the rage on pop/rock radio and MTV. Whether you like the style or not is irrelevant... it's far more commercial than probably 99% of the lyrics in any genre that have ever been posted here. So you have to broaden your perspective a bit on your concept I think.

Thanks for the continued discussion.. I am not sure if we've really reached a conclusion at this point, but it's better to communicate these things than stew over them quietly.

Brian

Brian,

Hi....

In lieu of Ben's suggestion (if that's not possible with the programming for the
new board)...would it be a good idea to include a guideline suggestion of....

** When posting your lyric, please indicate what type of review you are looking for....
i.e.; gentle, in depth as possible....etc.

Would giving a brief intention statement such as the above be a heads up for the commenters and possibly make all of us think a bit as to why we're posting?
Or do you feel that would deter posters in general....?

I personally think it would be valuable to both the new and seasoned poster.

and another question regarding defining commercial (Maybe this should be saved for a separate thread, but your statement made me pause) ....You mentioned that Jessy had written a lyric(or I might be misunderstanding here....) or had been the artist behind the song that was more commercial than probably 99% of the lyrics posted here. Where can we read that lyric since many of us are aiming toward commercial....

and best wishes..... and thanks....
Kaley

I have a question. Is a songwriter who hasn't found their 'voice' and hasn't figured out exactly where to 'pitch' their work considered less than serious here?

If so, I find that discouraging since I consider that a beginning songwriter may be every bit as serious and ambitious as someone further down the learning curve.

Many months ago I gave an 'in depth' critique (actually it was more of a copy editor's type critique with several minor suggested changes) to a seasoned writer here.

Several 'old-timers' came 'out of the woodwork' and gave 'back pat' after 'back pat'. Apparently I'd overlooked an unwritten, cardinal rule that when someone posts something 'personal' it should not be given an 'in depth' critique.

At the time I was quite new here and I can't tell you how much that embarrassed me. I hadn't meant any harm but was trying to please the many posters who'd already made it clear through "natural" communication here, they wanted 'in depth' critiques.

It left me with the distinct impression that liberty to post had more to do with who you were than what you posted. Perhaps I misinterpreted the 'polite indifference'. At any rate, I chose to rise above it and keep plugging along.

Also, some seemed to imply that if a new or less experienced poster/writer doesn't agree with most of what is offered surely they must have 'thin' skin. I disagree. I remember making a light hearted comment after receiving one of my first critiques, that "at least here I knew the folks were honest" or something to that effect. I meant it as a COMPLIMENT. But it was perceived as a complaint by the poster. I didn't know exactly what to do at the time.

Now I wish I'd explained myself but at the time I was a bit confused, not knowing the person very well. I would have tried to clear that misperception up if I had it to do over again.

Me, I'll always ask for the toughest critique any RESPECTFUL writer is willing to share. I don't get my acceptance from JPF. I get it from my Maker. Do I have to agree with all the advice I get from those with more advanced skills or understanding of the 'commercial' music world. No. And I'm not always going to be wrong when I don't. Many times with gospel, there's going to be some huge differences of opinion as to the content.

In cases like gospel, the most helpful critique is the one that says, "this is not making sense to me" or I don't follow your point here in this phrase/verse etc. I appreciate knowing that. It's very valuable to me. Specific word changes or vague comments aren't quite as helpful but I hope I never begin to "look a gift horse in the mouth". That's something I was taught not to do.

rd

edited to add: I have never emailed Brian concerning any of these perceptions. This is the first time I am discussing most of them. And I do appreciate being allowed to share this within a safe context for the benefit of future new members. I value each of you and thank you for ALL you've done to help me grow as a writer. The benefit from the majority of what's shared here FAR outweighs any frustration or embarassment in the overall scheme of things. So, please be assured I don't hold a grudge against anyone. Perhaps my perception was a bit distorted by the nature of this 'beast', online communication, which is why I thought it might be helpful to mention at this particular time.

Of course it goes without saying that "FLAMING" is never considered helpful at all. However, it does seem to be tolerated here (by default) more than any place I've ever been. That's too bad IMO.



[This message has been edited by royaldghtr (edited 11-30-2006).]

Where is JeanB when we need her, when she was around as the unofficial board moderator everything ran a lot smoother...

Sis,
You worry too much. Here we are in this board three environment posting away , in a way ; working and while we're at the business of writing lyrics , making friends , it's only natural to share some of the things that go on in our lives and that are important to us. I don't think anyone is going to be horrified if you crit something , thinking that was what the poster wanted. Because we're here and posting away , making friends and all and even knowing that there is a board with the specific purpose of sharing news , it might be that the poster didn't feel obligated to share that particular bit of news with the entire organization , or , that the entire org. may not be particularly interested in that news. When someone posts a post that is of a personal nature I have quite often seen people post a comment that sounds like "hey , that's personal and I make it a habbit not to comment on such things , btw , that's a bummer , sorry to hear." To which the poster can say , it's okay go ahead and post , or not , btw thanks...
That "needless " discussion needn't have gone on , but ; it's an act of consideration that seems to be rampant around here . Why anyone would consider any such "sharing" as a waste of time and not serious is wholly beyond me.
I'm not saying that you're having posted like you did was a nono , it wouldn't have hurt for the orig. poster to have seen your plight and said "don't sweat it lil' sis " but, if they didn't ; it could be that you were not in such a big "jamb" as you percieved.
Blessings,
bbh,
Pete

Brian,
I do like the idea of a means of expressing expectations in advance and think it's a dandy idea !
I thought I heard you say that "you can post anything you want" not a zillion times , maybe just a quarter mil.. If you hear something like "I don't wanna hear ,, I don't wanna see..." does that conflict with the vision for jpf , or , does that come across as opinion as usual?
I'd like to hear your opinion of how jpf is doing in general , how it's changed since the start and what things are good and what things are bad IYO , it is your board , right?
It's a big world and you mentioned that you reviewed songs in many languages , any chance that folks from around the world could post their songs in their native tongues , or is that "dreaming the impossible dream" ?
V/R,
Pete

I like the idea of a Commercial vs. Non-Commercial lyric board. Not genres. But whether the lyricist is AIMING for a commercial market--cuts on a record label-- vs. just having fun kicking out a rhyme that day.

I like to know what sort of critique the writer wants and what their goals and objectives are. It *does* affect how I critique a great deal.

If left to my own devices, I'd have a rep for being the board's Simon Cowell. :-) It's too easy for me to draw blood. I don't like hurting feelings, though, and I appreciate others' sincere efforts. So... instead of letting my Simon voice rule... I seek out the positives, and try my best to phrase it gently when I have negatives to point out.

I tend to leave alone the ones who refuse any and all attempts to suggest changes and insist their lyrics are perfect as-is.

Maybe we could have a "showcase" lyric board-- for lyrics we'd like to show off to everyone, but inwardly think are already perfect, don't want a critique for, and aren't willing to change.

So--there's the three new boards for ya'--Showcase Only, Be Brutal This Has to Sell, and Please Be Gentle.

How about that?

Now I'm off to make Christmas cookies. Enjoy your day everyone!

Linda



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Linda Adams
Read about my novels:
http://www.alyssastory.com
Bits & pieces of music:
www.soundclick.com/lindaadams

Hi Brian and All

Here's another approach to consider ONE Lyric Forum and in our PROFILES a selection of what types of crtiques we would like to receive any/all, gentle, etc.....

One mp3 forum works with all genres and I like the diversity of writings being all in one place.

jm

Kaley,

You opened up a very interesting door with your question about Jessy Moss's lyric. (Though I was referring to the entire song, the lyrics are fair game as well). I've long argued the point vehemently that Commercial and Artistic are 2 VERY different and often independent things. By saying something is more commercial is not ALSO saying it's better and it's certainly not even close to saying it's more artistic. But it seems from comments earlier here that some may not really understand the very clear distinctions.

An example would be a hit Rap song in any given week. Very commercial by simple fact that it's generating a LOT of commerce and that fact is indisputable. Whether it's better than any lyric here is probably a good question. I spent some time last week watching the MTV hits show (mostly with my mouth hanging open). It was horrificly bad. But all the artists being broadcasts were gigantic commercial successes. But the songs (and I use that word loosly) didn't' have any structure, didn't attempt to tell any story or make any real point, there was no melody and in many not even a chorus or bridge or verses. In fact, some were just a couple lame lines of text repeated over and over without melody OR even an interesting rhythm bed. But it doesn't matter. They were extremely commercial. Everyone needs to stop equating commercial with great or even good. They also need to stop equating non commercial with amateur.

I mentioned Jessy Moss's Alternative song because someone suggested that that was a genre that would fall into the non commercial category. But in the case of that song, it's about as close to all the stuff that was on the MTV hits show as anything I have heard. (In fact, her song did what they were doing much better and with far more merit in my opinion). It's not surprising. She was on 3 major labels prior to going Indie and she's way ahead of the hip curve. It doesn't mean her lyrics are BETTER than anything here.. only that they are more commercial than most of what is found here. So it would be silly for anyone to try and mimic or learn from her lyric on an artistic level. However on a commercial level, her sound and the way the song is performed and written would be a great lesson for what is popular right now today on MTV and elsewhere. (He video for the same song would be right at home on MTV as well). Both her song and her video are still posted on our site and anyone who did any voting during the awards process this year can easily still access them (and all the other winning songs for that matter).

There's no doubt in my mind that if we posted (which we can't do legally by the way.. without permission) the lyrics of the top hits of today that everyone here could easily rip them apart and write something artistically better. Heck, remember the Nora Jones Grammy Winning Song of the Year Don't Know Why? The lyrics to that song are like little kids wrote them. Really bad. Doesn't matter. It was a commercial smash. As inane as those lyrics are, they still WORK in context of the song. And though I don't care for much of what is popular right now, it's undeniable that any song that can sell millions of copies is a commercial success no matter what we think of the quality. The lesson here is be careful when using words like Commercial or even artistic for that matter. There is no clear cut way to segregate. Genres certainly don't do it. Heck, the song that "moved" me emotionally the most this year was in Portugeuse.. I have no idea WHAT the lyrics even are.

That leads us to a whole new topic. Weak lyrics never stop a song from being a hit. Strong lyrics alone rarely ever cause a song to be a hit. Commercial success will rarely derive from the lyrics. (Yes, there are some exceptions as there are in all things). Someone else suggested the importance of the lyricists here stepping over and working with or learning from the musicians here. That's good advice. Because sadly the truth is that your lyric alone is unlikely going to get you anywhere unless you can marry it with music that will move the listeners first. Without that, you're at a big disadvantage. That's why hits can have lame lyrics, but rarely do hits have music that the audience doesn't find hip, cool or moving.

Food for thought.

Brian

RD,

If people here feel like they ever have to walk on eggshells when giving a critique then we have more serious problems than I realized. If you give a respectful critique of something (meaning you aren't insulting the person or attacking them personally) and they don't like it, then it's their fault for posting it, not yours for critiquing.

Brian