JPF Home Page Forums Lyric and MP3 Feedback Lyric Feedback Forum 3 Upgrading Soon: Feedback?

Hi Folks,

Now that we're back from the awards, we'll next be focusing on finally updating the message boards. Since the 3 Lyric Feedback Forums aren't being used like they used to, I'm considering consolodating them back into 1 Lyric Board. We never intended for people to break into separate groups based on Lyric Board Numbers, but rather hoped that everyone would use all 3 so that you'd all do MORE posting rather than less. (We still fight the false assumption that there's a limit to how many lyrics you can post here per day.. there's isn't any).

So, does anyone here object to combining all the boards back into 1 general lyric feedback board? If so, how would you suggest we break it up so that people will check more than one place? (Since many of you have said clicking to check 2 boards or more is simply asking too much?). If there's no good suggestions on how to best use 2 or more Lyric boards, then we'll go back to 1.

Let me know. I think the new boards have a large array of options that everyone should enjoy once we all learn the new ropes.

Brian

Hi Brian,

Is there a way of having it so that with scrolling, Page One of the forum would accomodate more entries than a page does now? Otherwise the consollidation of all writers to one board will mean that a poster's song will quickly slide off the page and he or she won't get much feedback from viewers.

Actually a limit of a song or two on the front page would be more desirable of a rule, given a larger volume of posters relative to page size. Also an offshoot of such a posting limitation might inspire a writer to stick with his work a little longer before popping up another lyric.

Like a talented writer once said, treat each song like the "big one" rather than secondary to the big one waiting somewhere in the wings. . . or like Phil Specter said: "Any song can become a hit if you concentrate on it enough."

So either write it off as a loss, or take it to as fine a polish as you can. Worthy songs not dwelled on long enough are the same as jobs not done well or to completion, so frequent posting can be more an image of laziness than the prolific thorough striving to make each one succeed, that they appear to be -- a confidence-pumper rather than a professional focus.

Sorry, I digressed!

Thanks Brian,
Terry

Hi Brian,

I have no objections to combining them into one. It will add diversity to the mix which I believe is a GOOD thing. I will still only respond to a certain number of posts simply because I have a limited amount of time to devote to critiquing.

As far as the idea of limiting posts to one per day or such. I respect your position on that as well. If someone posts several in one day, I don't have to respond.

And I don't think it is a sign of laziness if someone doesn't finish a lyric before starting another one. Some of my lyrics will take me years to finish because I haven't developed the crafting tools or word smithing necessary to decide which structure works best for the idea I'm trying to convey.

If someone were to make a rule that I couldn't post another song until I finished the first one, I'd still be working on that first gravy song trying to make it work. Or the narrative song about my son's conception. LOL! Cuz, those songs probably shouldn't have been written in the first place.

Also, I don't think that having a song sit on the "first page" has that much to do with how many folks respond to it. If it does though, all one would have to do is bump their song back to the first page (especially if someone came along and posted 25 songs bumping theirs off). Surely you would intervene if someone grossly abused your "no rules" policy.

I like your policy myself. It puts a high value on a person's abilitly to figure out how to manage their own social/professional skills. Thanks for providing such a great service to songwriters/musicians. I'm grateful.

vanessia



[This message has been edited by royaldghtr (edited 11-20-2006).]

Hi Brian,

My feelings are what Vanessa just said.

Calvin


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/calvinstewart

There have been times that we(I) had posted on forum 1 and 2 and didn't get the response that I would have on forum 3. That is why I typically use forum 3. But if we rotate our postings to use all 3 forums, I can see them all being more active.

For those of us who post our lyrics on a regular basis then we could keep track of our self by rotating where we post. That means that if we are posting multiple songs in a week then they should be spread out among the 3 forums. I don't think there should be a limit of how many songs we post either. It's up to us individually if we have time to comment or not. I generally make it a rule to comment on lyrics that have received no comments before it rolls off from the board.

By utilizing all of the forums, we meet new people as well...there are many JPF members that we don't even know about.



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My Sound Click

In a time of universal deceit, speaking truth is a revolutionary act", George Orwell

MySpace

I'm at a loss to figure out how another poster knows how long it took me or any other poster to write a lyric? The amount of time from when pen meets paper to when pen goes back in it's holder, has nothing to do with how long a given lyric took to write. A lyric is comprised of a lifetime of experiences, which have been whiling away, waiting for the right moment to be expressed as cohesive thought. Oh and to answer your question, one board would be a disaster, as too many lyrics will have zeros due to time constraints, and those posters will in all likihood move elsewhere. Try two boards and see how that works. Thanks for the opportunity to be recognized as an artist!

Not sure what you're running in the background..but I imagine it's an SQL database...

What you might move towards is a current board and a set of archives..perhaps by year...

I too gravitated from 1 to 2 to 3 as they were created..simply to not scatter myself, make it easy for me etc. For me it is simply a time thing. I'm currently not very active and for the past year or so have been here in "waves"...so "time management" dictates where I post.

Brian, as for how to use the other two forums, I would like to see one of them be used as a forum to post and discuss hit songs and what makes them popular. I think most hit songs are popular because they are good and I would like to participate in a forum where we can discuss song structure, rhyming patterns, arrangements, concepts and ideas that were involved in creating the songs that we already know and love.

Hi Brian

Thanks for asking us...I really also agree with what Vanessa has stated. I will say though, initially in posting I did try to alternate with all three boards, but I received less comments on 1 and 2 so I gravitated to 3. At home I have a dial up so staying on one board proved easier timewise for me. jm

Brian,

Being one of the newer members of the community, I'm hoping a "newcomers point of view" might be helpful. I agree with several of the points made thus far. I'd hate to see anyone's post get sent down so fast that no one really has time to even give it a look & crit before it's out of sight. And as a newbie, I know that I wasn't sure or comfortable at first bumping my own post back to the top. So that could be an issue in combining all 3 boards.

Two boards may be a solution in conjunction with allowing more posts on one page to be viewed (as Terry stated). And IF there were going to be a limit as to how many new posts we could make per day, well...1 or 2 would be just too few! (lol...rhyme even when I'm not trying)I too checked out all 3 boards, but had more response from forum 3, like JM, so I've tended to stick with what works.

Thanks for asking our opinions on this...

Bree

www.soundclick.com/breeg


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Indecisiveness is the key to flexibility. ~ Me

One feature I would like to see is a check box rating system so that even if no one responded, the poster could still get some feedback and not feel like the lyric was ignored. To spare us the embarrassment of having posted a turkey, that information could be made available to just the author.
Anyone who has been on these boards awhile are aware that some outstanding lyrics slide down the list without comment and we all know that some lyrics continue to bounce to the top because the author responds to every comment. Having a rating box would give feedback to the author even if know one cared to respond.

I'm just guessing here but the rating categories could be something like this:

1- this song needs a lot of work
2- this song has some potential but a rewrite is in order
3-this song has real potential but could use some tweaking
4 this is a good song and I would like to hear the finished recording
5-this song is radio worthy material
6-this is as good or better than most of what I hear on the radio
7.Find a publisher! Get a good demo because this is a hit song!

Hi Brian,

I agree with you...I think it's time for us to go back to just one lyric board.
As I recall... both times you added a new board (#2 & #3) it was because the current boards weren't working....
And thus everyone wanting to post, utilized the newest board. When the old ones were again functional... I know your hope was that we would spread out our postings and use them all.
But that just hasn't happened. When you added #2, some of us did try to use both boards... but as has been mentioned above... with far less comments. Some of us floated through the two boards, but a lot didn't. And so to choose to post on the "old" board became riskier.
And then we developed exactly what was NOT needed. two separate groups. And from my observations... oftentimes it was newer (perhaps less confident) writers who postes on board one...(at least one made the comment at the time, that they didn't feel ready to post on board #2 with the "big boys"..,, and that was sad. It was like some thought we had "upper level" and "lower level" writers)
As it stands now... there is almost no activity on boards 1 and 2 much of the time... so basically we are operating on just a single board now. and looking at that board this morning...there are posts going back 4 days. Obviously.... it takes a little while for a new post to slip off page one.
I think with the upgrade... it's time to make it official and go back to just one board.

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Harriet
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=24419

http:cdbaby.com/cd/ames

Brian,
Nice to hear from you . Nice too , to see you get a bit of a breather , for a minute . Just curious , are you taking it on the road again this year ?
Technology has trickled down , even to justplainfolk , that allow most to punch out an MP3 , yet some , myself included , still prefer to stick with the "lyrics boards" .
I can't remember if I had breakfast yesterday , let alone , what it might have been . I don't know if you caught the lengthy discussion about "keep or sweep" sugs and stuff , but ; some folks have a preferance to not have sugs offered . Would be nice if there were an emoticon , or some shorthand way of denoting that , at the beginning , so a well intended sug doesn't have the effect of someone trashing their lyric , because it had been contaminated by a sug. I think I've heard you say "you can post anything you want " that's nice , but ; I don't want to trash anyone's lyric.
Might be nice if there was a way for us to post MP3's @jpf , but ; they do take up a lot of space. I've had a yahoo mailbox for two years or so that hovered at one percent for most of that time and in a short few months of playing around with MP3's it shot up to 17% , they do chew up some ground.
My personal pref would be to combine board 1 and 2 into new 1 , keep 3 as new 2 and call MP3 new 3 and allow MP3's on all three .
I noticed on the front page that there was a category for videos , ya mean there are videos on jpf ? I really should get around to more of the boards around here...
Pete
Happy Thanksgiving All
And Thanks for jpf...

Brian,
I think in many ways, it's counter-productive to have 3 separate boards....

1..limited time to spread ourselves 3 deep
2...there's categorizing...that HH alluded to
3..I think (on rare occasion) that..it's even thought of as intrusion...when folks from board 3 help out on the other boards

It worked well with one board...for a long time...I think if we all make a more concentrated effort..to watch out for new folks..and zero's....it will work.

Best...
Kaley

Hi, Brian,

Yes, I agree that it's time to go back to just one board. It would hopefully promote more unity among the lyric community, as well as allowing more people to read the lyrics that are posted.

I would also recommend posting some additional guidelines about posting and critiquing on the lyric boards.

It is hard for some of us to post on all three boards. As of this time, the only reponses for this thread are on this board, even though this thread has been posted on all three.

I look forward to combining all of the creative forces on the 3 lyric boards

Emily

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http://emilysanders.net

[This message has been edited by Emily Sanders (edited 11-20-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Emily Sanders (edited 11-20-2006).]

Yabbut...where would Brian put BAL ?
Pete

YIKES!
I just went to the other boards to check out the comments on this thread and on 1 and 2 , there aren't any. I guess we'll adapt , either way . I'd hate to see us loose any posters because they weren't comfortable posting with us "cliquish" types on board three and have nowhere to go . Isn't the idea of jpf to give everyone the chance , even if they're shy , or something.
Pete

As someone who does not post/crit too often (for various reasons) but does read several posts . . . I have to second NashvilleCat's rating suggestion. It would be great to make an anonymous post (rating) giving one's general impressions of a song. You could give your honest opinion without worrying about who said what to who (if there's supposed to be a "whom" in there, just pretend there is cuz that confuses me) . . .etc., etc . .. we all know how that type of thing can go. That is one tool I think would be used frequently -- as it would be easy for those who don't have time for in-depth crits . . .and the writer gets some type of feedback . . .everyone's happy, the end

And . . . yup . ..1 Lyric board is the way to go. Thinking everyone will "spread out" is just that -- wishful "thinking". Ain't gonna happen.



[This message has been edited by doodle (edited 11-20-2006).]

Holy Maccerell Doo,
The anonymous crit is an exellent idea , was thinking of something like it myself. Anon. posts might be another , that way , well , you get the idea...
Pete

My only concern with using only one forum for lyrics is that the new members already feel like they're not as good as others and if they are reminded of that false sense of self by seeing certain songs receive recognition significantly more than any of theirs, that they might shy away from using the forum at all. I fear that would happen still with us all lumped together on one page...baby steps maybe and ween everyone to merge if you need to? Or maybe place a hidden post somewhere on any of the lyric pages and who ever finds it gets a JPF sticker or something? Or maybe just give us one more chance to take our postings in our own hands and vow to post on each of the forums along with a few comments on each?

I strongly believe that if we keep at least one other lyric writing board and regularly post on both, that we would get to know others and they get to know us and feel comfortable with one another and use up both boards so as not to be wasted. It would definitely be more active on the forum 1 or 2 if we made a habit of posting on all of the forums. And keep the same rule that if we post a song then we also should try to comment on a few songs while we are there!

While we are at it, could I suggest that there be only lyrics posted on the lyric boards and other topics such as technical(which we don't have!), or other topics like current events to discuss be on a separate forum? That could minimize space as well for only lyrics and for us to focus on sharing lyrics, critiquing lyrics and encouraging each other forward with our lyrics?

Lyric writing 3 is one of the hottest spots to hang out at here at JPF so it does make sense that we would use it to post happenings etc. But it doesn't take a whole lot of time to surf around at other spots on JPF and start utilizing those areas too! The times I've ventured into other areas, I was so pleased with what I had found...different people who comment, more insight, business info etc. There's such a wealth of info on JPF.

Best Wishes with your project!

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the feedback. Very interesting. I think those that are worried that suddenly we'll have too many posts on one board hasn't even noticed that Lyric 1 and 2 get almost no new posts anymore meaning at most all they do is disappoint a new person who doesn't understand why no one responds to their lyric. That's been verified by comments here.

As for posts disappearing faster, if we had so much traffic that we needed more boards, I wouldn't need to ask this entire question. But the reality is that while the entire site has doubled in traffic in the last year (it's tripled this month actually from last year) the Lyric boards have never been slower/quieter in our entire history. That's why I want to figure out how to encourage more participation. Right now when a new person posts on Lyric 1 or 2 and get's no response, often they never come back. If everyone posts on 1 board, then at least lyrics will get noticed by anyone logging in. The fact that most regulars don't even check any of the other boards is disappointing, but since I can't change that fact, I can at least re-configure the boards so that no one gets ignored or is confused why their lyric was ignored on Lyric 1 or 2 when people respond on Lyric 3. If we find suddenly that many new folks are posting then we can always add a second board. Or perhaps some alternative types of boards to get folks to click more than 1 time. I'll bet over 50% of the regulars here know almost nothing about what is going on in the rest of the JPF org since I can see many of you go directly to the Lyric 3 page without ever leaving that one board. There's a lot more going on and perhaps we need to nudge folks to at least use their peripheral vision a little and heck, they might just meet a new collaborator, a new business contact or find out there's more to life than just Lyric Feedback Board 3.

I won't change anything until after we've converted all the boards to the new software. I am going to call on that today and see what needs to be done.

Brian

Brian,

First, truly enjoyed meeting you and Sandy in Santa Ana. Thanks for the effort and fine production.

Regarding the boards, I am in favor of one lyric Forum for a couple of reasons:

(1) As mentioned earlier, some new folks go to Forum 1 or Forum 2 to post and get few, if any, critques. Thus they perceive either apathy or cliquish prejudice and, for either reason, just go away and don't come back.

(2) Folks with dial-up Internet service are at a distinct disadvantage if we go with more than one Forum. The time it takes for a new page (Lyric Forum or whatever other forum) to load is substantial. That is a very real and verified problem. I am very fortunate to have high speed broadband. But, many folks either can't afford it, or it isn't available where they live. Thus, having more than one Lyric Forum would put them at a substantial disadvantage for additional participation and/or involvement.

(3) For practical purposes, we are currently utilizing but one board anyway, so I don't think we would see any degredation in the effieciency of the board.

Thanks for asking our opinions.

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

Hi Brian,

You have obviously been at JPF in this since it's inception and know more of what goes on behind the scenes than anyone of us, so I do trust your judgment and also very much appreciate your asking our opinions.

I do see your point about newcomers on Boards 1 and 2 almost being isolated. When I came on I just kind of stuck w/my initial Board (3) since it was easy to do that way and thought I'll post and critique here. If we all think that way than Boards 1 and 2 might be continue to be sparse so I can see why one board "fits all" so to speak. I am okay w/that if that is your decision, and it is yours to make.

I do like Nash's idea of discussing hit songs, sounds interesting enough and educational but I do not agree w/any rating done anonomously unless the receiver atleasts know who the rating comes from as opposed to the entire lyric board since some sadly might use anonoymous in a hurtful way and quite frankly ratings are all subjective.

I appreciate all you do for all of us!!!!

Best,
Lynn
(just one voice)

Hey Brian,

I don't really use the lyric boards that much, but like to pop in once in awhile for a bit of advice.

How about 2 boards, one such as this for critiques, and the other as someone mentioned, either for general lyrical discussion or for specific problems. eg "the bridge doesn't work, can somone please help me ? "

I've mentioned a collaboration board next to mp3, maybe something similar here as well to incourage the flow of ideas ?

cheers, niteshift

HIDee Brother Brian~

Bein' a Non-Musician, I truly LIKE Sgae's Idea of a Co-lab Board...where us Purely Lyricists could more easily hook up with Lyric-Seekin Musicos..who normally don't seem to be In-Profusion at Board 3.

Ya might get More Participation on onea the Other Boards if ya made it "Inspirational Lyrics Only"..too. The Very-Religious would prolly swarm the Site.

But..IF ya DO combine 'em all into One...Please Reset the Search Function to scan all 3 Boards Simultaneously, if at all possible. It's currently kinda Tough to Remember WHICH Board a particular Lyric IS Posted ON, & requires 3X the time to track an Older Title down.

The "NEW Board ONE" does have a Nice Ring to It..and heck, we WOULD then "All Be In This Together" again! (Think a Max of 2 Lyrics a Day would be in-order thence..assuming Posters get Busy Again!)
If nothin' else, it'd force the "Very Prolific" to come back OFTEN..heh-heh.
(Ya might Suggest Strongly that Those Who Post for Critique OWE some Critiques TOO, in all Fairness.)

A New Board on "WHAT'S WORKIN' (& WHY?)" would be fun to track On-Air (& even Off-Air) Music Trends..& critique what DOES work well In Da Marketplace.

That's My Pair O' Pennies!
Thanks for such a Great Job ALREADY Brian, & if ya can make it Even Better, here's an Early "HATS OFF To Ya, Amigo!"

Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

Hi Brian,

I came back to second some of Stan's suggestions.

One board and a two song limit, and that those who post for praise and/or critique are OBLIGATED to help others if they are going to commandeer showcase space repeatedly.

If you go with one board, then more of a case can be made for relegating the NSAI postings, and song pitch/industry related, instructional stuff, and personal commentary and notices, to a seperate forum so that such info -- which is easy to find in songwriting mags, songwriting organizations and books anyway, if people make the effort--doesn't continually push songs down the page of that ONE forum.

Thanks,
Terry

Terry,

I am not sure we want a police state on forcing (and tracking) how many responses people give. It's not a good idea. The better way to encourage people to give back is to STOP giving them feedback until they do. We have some obvious takers here who have never given back at all yet people STILL continue to give and give and give to them. Why is that? I don't want to "force" someone to do anything. When we do that everyone will leave. I also don't want to limit the # of posts because when someone violates it, even if it is a rare thing, that gives ammos for passive aggressive people to play police. Ack. Let's let the community standards set themselves and let those who post too much and get no response or those who never give anything back learn on their own that getting zero responses is the result of them not really being a part of the group. In addition, I hope we can finally get over the "clique" factor here. It's haunted us for several years now and I am willing to do about anything short of shutting it all down to do away with that if I can. I am open to ideas on how to achieve that.

Brian

Hi Brian, If it winds up as 2 forums, a Commercial Lyrics Forum, and an Indie/Noncomm Forum may work. Newcomers will have a choice of category.

This should insure they get the type of critiques that may help them become better writers.

A commercial writer will get critiqued by his peers. That should mean honest critiques in this case.
Noncomm writers see their songs differently. They are probably going to be performing their songs, or have a co-writer who does.
They are easy to offend, and having the right forum for them will enable them to post where their fellow indie writers hang out.

I think it would be intersting to see how the quality of critiques is affected.
Commercial or Noncomm. You know the intended audience by where he/she posted the lyric, and that is helpful in knowing what advice or thoughts the writer is seeking.

I'd post in both because I write both. And I'm sure many here would too.

Sure, many of those who have been around awhile know what a regular is shooting for, advice wise, but new members who visit a single/central forum may only look at the top two or three lyrics before deciding to post. If they write commercial lyrics only, and the top few posts are non-commercial, they may look elsewhere. Presented with choice of posting with like minded writers,they may even post right away.

I think it would work, resulting in more new members better critiques.

Tony

Hi Brian

In regards to cliques, maybe a chat room would help, or perhaps better yet an instant message thing, where folks can personally ask for a review and or a collaboration, well any interaction between posters will make for a tighter knit community. This has been done with something called site mail, when a person has a message, they see in the right hand corner you have a message(s) that only they see. Maybe even make new friends!

rittman

Hi Brian,

In regards to the "clique" question...if there is a forum or site that you feel exemplifies the values that you feel Forum 3 should have, maybe it would be worthwhile to do a detailed study or analysis of your ideal site, and develop a comparison of the two sites. This might help you pinpoint why Forum 3 isn't fulfilling your expectations.

Depending on how detailed you'd want to get, and how much time and resources you have...you could, for instance, distribute a questionnaire to find out more about the backgrounds of both groups. Maybe, for instance, you'll find that a disproportionate number of people on one site are women or men or accountants or engineers or waitresses or graphic artists or...whatever. If this were the case, then maybe that would account for the cliques -- "like" people have found each other. Then, you could trace this back and figure out why these people are all attracted to the same forum. Is it because they've heard about the forum from a certain magazine? Is it because the graphic layout of the site is appealing to that group? Maybe the color of the site appeals to that group? Successful companies spend millions of dollars branding a certain "look" to appeal to certain groups, so this wouldn't be far-fetched.

Or, maybe you'll find it's something completely different. But, until the issue is looked at with a critical eye based upon research, the cause of the problem, and therefore the solution, may be hard to pinpoint.

I realize that a major effort could probably not be undertaken, but maybe a long-range plan with lots of baby steps.

Best of luck with your newest forum project.

Lisa

In regards to the IM'ing and asking folks for critiques.........NOOOOOOOOOO! Not picking on you at all, Ritt, or that other site, but I can't stand that. PLEASE, no.

I think a chat room might be a nice feature, though.

P.S. Maybe that's WHY I have no friends, Ritt.

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"Experience teaches us that silence terrifies people the most."~~Bob Dylan

www.giddygirlmusicpublishing.com

[This message has been edited by TriciaBaker (edited 11-22-2006).]

Actually we've wanted to have a chat room for a long time. But then chat rooms sort of fell out of use on the net (compared to where it was say 7-8 years ago) so it seemed less like something to spend a lot of money on. Even today there's not a lot of good Chatroom solutions that you can host on your actual site (most are hosted elsewhere and you are pelted with spam and banner ads.. ack). If someone knows of a good working chatroom we could add to the site I am all for it. I used to love our Sunday night chats on AOL the first 2.5 years of JPF and it would be fun to do some of those again. We could likely get guest speakers etc.. as well.

We could BUY a chatroom set up but they were more expensive than the new message board and that took us several months to raise enough money for.

Brian

If I can just chime in with a suggestion.... rather than having 3 lyric boards.... how about

- a 'JPF Writer's Cafe' - a place for folks to post poetry, prose, song ideas, unfinished lyrics for sharing/discussion/feedback

I also like the idea posted above, regarding having a Commercial lyric board (meaning the critiques will be given within the framework of commercial viability), and a non-Commercial/singer-songwriter/indie lyric board.

Just my two cents. Keep or sweep

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Vikki Flawith, Canadian Singer/Songwriter & Voice Teacher
'Bird's 'Official Site'
'Bird's MySpace
ZaNy cRaZy 'Bird Blog

'Bird's fledgling *F*O*L*K* CD

Happy Thanksgiving!


I agree with Chat being so "yesterday". I often found myself lost in the shuffle because of not being as witty as others...But it would probably be good for some. I'd probably pop in and say "hey" but not much more than that. I've been on boards where the chat is once a week at 9PM. I think it's a great way to introduce yourself! Speaking of which...an introduction area maybe?

I don't believe there are cliques. I think it's just as Lisa stated. Paraphrasing, "We have found people like ourselves". And those who are not like us we still tolerate and accept...most times. There are times when there is a controversial lyric on the board that many seem to attack. But I've found it depends who wrote the lyric...that is the only cliquish example that I have seen. The ones that get chased off from the board are the ones that "I" find are like me and therefore I find it very difficult to make friends because of my core values not matching many on here...but I still tolerate, I still care and I accept most people for their own belief system.

Those are the only issues that I see with grouping up with "like minded" people...the badgering of certain people for their views and not badgering friends when they have similar views.

That's my take on it. If anything can be done it should be to stop fighting with new people who don't even know us yet and give them a chance. If you don't like their views then leave the critiquing for someone who can help them instead of chasing them away.

Brian has enough sense to oust people out if it goes against policy or if something turns out threatening. But freedom of speech, in my opinion, should prevail. Maybe there should be a rule that in every title of a posting that could be offensive that it is stated as such so that we can avoid reading something that might set us off?



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My Sound Click

In a time of universal deceit, speaking truth is a revolutionary act", George Orwell

MySpace

There are two sure fire ways for a newbie to break into this or any writing forum, the formula is quite simple, all they need do, is 1), breeze through ten posts and quickly say, I love this, great rhythm, this lyric sings without thinking, etc, etc, and 2) in the title of their post say ("Needs Help") then preface the lyric with, not sure about the chorus, bridge is incomplete, fresh ink, please critique, etc, etc, and other posters will be in their glory trying to help...see it's really easy...!

[This message has been edited by sweetjoyce (edited 11-23-2006).]

The opposite approach, is to post five lyrics in a row, while not even attempting to reply to any other lyrics on the board, and when only two lyrics get a response, and one of them is please don't hog the board, cry foul, cry bullies, cry cliques!!!

you're starting to sound like the voice in The Wall intro...if you don't eat your meat you won't get any pudding, how do you expect to get any pudding if you don't eat your meat?(not sure of the exact wording)..just kidding..I needed a smile today and you're the second one to do that!

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My Sound Click

In a time of universal deceit, speaking truth is a revolutionary act", George Orwell

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Well Linda, it's my belief there are far too many people who are "Comfortably Numb"......oh well...doh...

Hey Ritt !
You live in "The City " , right ? There really folks at parks playing chess at tables , on rocks and anywhere you can put a board and a timer ? Think speedchess , where you read a lyrig , post a comment/crit/sug , pop the timer and move on to another one . That way there will be lots of big numbers , the big guy is happy and if you get a response , you can do more in depth thinking/writing , thaat way you don't end up with the big long crit (like one of Bobbie Gallop's ) and a response like "hey thanks". Isn't this an "interactive" board?
Is that cliquey?
Happy Turkey take-out,
Pete

I've actually participated on a number of other music related message boards, and I think that this one is fairly friendly.

I have noticed that many message boards do seem to have "regulars", and that those folks do seem to have formed a "group" of some kind...

I don't think that folks should be faulted for forming friendships.....I don't mean stay up on my soap box here...but I feel that one has to WORK to make friends and to get noticed. That's just real life!

I understand that there are some folks who feel like it is "clique-ish"...BUT...I have to say:

You get what you put into it.

I have noticed that many of the folks on Lyric Board 3 that get a lot of responses ALSO take the time to post critiques for others. And, some of the people on Lyric Board 3 have met in person at Pineyfest, the annual songwriter's festival, hosted by Bobbie Gallup. The fact that some of us know each other should not mean that we EVER exclude others. I am so sorry that there is a perception of that on this board. It's my hope that we will ALL make every effort to make lyric posters feel welcome...that's what JPF is supposed be about

From time to time I receive emails from specific members asking me to critique a particular lyric, which I do gladly.

Unfortunately, even though I'd love to post critiques for many lyrics, I don't often have unlimited amounts of computer time to do that. I try to post "welcome" messages for new members when I can. The friendly atmosphere on these boards should always extend to new members!!!!

Sometimes, the reason that I choose not to crituque a particular lyric is that I don't have anything to say, not that I am trying to exclude that member.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that we have to work hard to make connections and friendships happen.

Here are two of my favorite quotes by George Bernard Shaw:

"People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them."
--George Bernard Shaw

AND:

"The true joy in life comes from being a force in nature, instead of spending time complaining that the world won't devote itself to making you happy.."
-- George Bernard Shaw

Emily


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http://emilysanders.net

[This message has been edited by Emily Sanders (edited 11-23-2006).]

I was going to keep quiet....but this has been bothering me...

This board is friendly. I would think it near impossible.. to have a 'core' of writers...who have been through a "lot"
together....over and above comments, critiques, and collaborations.. to not, then..... feel a special closeness to each other. Several of us have been writing together for six years or more.

On the other hand...I do believe ANY newcomber who makes ANY effort is always
welcomed here and treated kindly. A prime example of this... is several newcombers to
Lyrics Board III came to Pineyfest this past summer.

Even those, who in their excitement of finding this board and then start posting a zillion songs..still get responses,.....and IF they stick around and participate...find their way around....and are welcomed.

I do know I need to go on more Zero hunts....I use to do it a lot....but have not done it near as much this past year.
Probably folks slip through the cracks...
and disappear if they don't get "immediate"
responses... But when it comes right down to it....there's something to be said...
for try try again. With all the rejection that's out there in the real world of songwriting, a trait that will take someone a bit ..farther is "persistence".

If we are cliquish?...I'm not aware of it...
Maybe a clique is defined differently for each of us. I have experienced cliques...
and I don't see that here. Like any big familiy....there are irritations...and squabbles..and lots of mis-understandings....cause we're human. I can only speak for myself.. but I like everyone here..

How many times..have any one of us done something...less than brilliant here on this board...and shortly after..be excused or forgiven..? I think that's a wonderful trait of this board. This board also has
been a big supporter of JPF by both word
and action.

Maybe I'm naive...but I can't think of anyone who has come to this board and truly Given....who has not then truly Received.

hugs and best to everyone...
Kaley.....

Well, I for one do hope this forum isn't shut down. I think we're making headway. I don't think anyone should feel like they shouldn't comment on this thread. I think if anytime at all it would be now...Brian gave us the opportunity(at least it appears that way)to discuss this and clear it up. We're all just communicating in our individual way and the comments/concerns from each of us is real.

Kaylee, that was beautifully said!!

Likes and dislikes and political differences are bound to surface anywhere people gather -- but I've been trying to think of a clearcut show of the cliquishness being suggested --apart from accusations of same -- and, having struck out, was beginning to think I needed to recheck my dictionary definition.

From the ancient Chinese:

"Societies of people sharing the same views are formed. But since these groups come together in full public knowledge and are in harmony with the time, all selfish separatist tendencies are excluded, and no mistake is made."

I guess the "mistake" would be the dreaded, "clique".
I think I'm guilty of being a clique of one.

Terry

[This message has been edited by Tall_Terry (edited 11-24-2006).]

Here's the way I see it. We have many boards here. Lyric 3 may be the most active, though the Genral Board gets by far the most traffic. The MP3 boards gets nearly as much traffic as Lyric 3. The Songwriter Board would likely be next.

We have people who are good friends on the General Board and the MP3 board and some of our most testy discussions take place on the general board. However we've never had a single "clique" complaint in 8 years about any board other than Lyric 3. (Keep in mind I am talking "clique complaints." BAL got more complaints than all others in history combined.. but that was about her psycho nasty self). So, where it may be possible (and likely) that the problem is exaggerated and misinterpreted, it's still clear that at the very least, the perception is that it's a big clique. And perception is reality sadly. (how's that for a clique cliche?).

I've noticed over the years that even my own posts here on Lyric 3 versus other areas of the site typically get little or no response. Even I often feel like an unwelcome outsider on my own website here on Lyric 3. So if I can feel that way, imagine what some new person may feel like.

When we had 1 lyric board, we didn't get any complaints. When we had 2 boards it became an "us versus them" type thing for quite a while. With 3 for a short time all of them got traffic but now it's gotten to the point where we have less new posts on all 3 boards than we had back when we had 1 single board years and years ago. On the other hand, all the other boards get more traffic than ever before. That's why I want to address how to get the Lyric community back on the positive side of the growth curve. Perhaps having 1 board causes more action and more action causes more posts, interest and excitement. People know they have to keep up with things or they will miss them. Or maybe it will go the opposite way and people will feel even more unable to get a word in edgewise. I don't know the answer. Which is why I asked.

Brian

Brian,

I think you are right that one board will generate more variety and subsequently, more action.

There is tons of music that I have absolutely nothing against, but I just wouldn't go out and buy their records. The same is true for writers, in that the number of visits or whoever those visitors might be, isn't a measure of their songwriting progress. -- and the same visitors to a certain writer, of course doesn't constitute a clique.

More visitors, more variety to appeal to more taste, inspiring more enthusiasm about helping out.

Thanks,
Terry

Non-responding to a post of yours can be because you said all that needed to be said. Unfortunately one can't always hear the silent acknowledgement and agreement.

I do believe that there is at least the "perception" of cliques on Lyric 3. And to some degree I think we do occassionally present some of the characteristics of a clique. Even at that, I am not sure that it is a a true clique, per se. Of course, the definition of a clique varies, depending on the reference source you choose. From everything I was taught in my various Psych classes in college, becoming part of a clique is normal human behavior. People are most comfortable when they are in the company of others with similar ideas and likes.

If indeed there is a clique here, I do not see it as an offensive or intolerant assembly of people. And it is by no means exlusionary.

All of that having been said, I do think one lyric board would help to alleviate the perception of a formal clique. It would also make it more convenient for folks with dial-up Internet service. Going back and forth between boards on a dial-up connection is no fun! Thank God I have Broadband!!!!!

Although I have been very active on several other JPF boards recently, I have been on a self-imposed hiatus from the lyric boards for the past month for other reasons that I am not going to whine about here. But, I do expect to be back in the next couple of weeks.

My vote is for one lyric board.

Thanks for all the work and thought you have put into this, Brian. And thanks for caring enough about us to ask and give such careful consideration to what we say. Whatever you do, I am confident that it will be a good decision and that the great majority of us will be very pleased with it, once we have had a little time to acclamate. You know how we humans hate change! Just for the record, I think well thought out and correctly implememted change is fabulous! Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!

Alan

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If I were but half as good as Dawg...I'd be twice as good as most.

Don't take more than your love can buy,
Don't live faster than your angel can fly...
Hal Ketchum

Alan on Soundclick

Alan's Web Site

I am one of the JPF members who visits the other JPF message boards regularly. They are awesome!!

And, while I heartily recommend participating in ALL of the JPF message boards, I have a feeling that many musicians will not take the time to do that. It's just a sad reality about the selfishness of some artists...It has been my observation that some musicians don't really have the desire to give back to JPF, or to congratulate or encourage others. If it doesn't directly improve their career..or sell their CD's and concert tickets..they just don't do it... This type of self centeredness is, unfortunately, common in the arts...and can be seen on many message boards in the music business. Loaners and takers tend to lose in this business. You can never underestimate tho power of collaboration and kindness

In my mind, that's precisely what separates the good from the great... The art of giving isn't something that can be required; one has to have the desire to give back, and to see the value in helping someone else.

Check out the "Success Stories" board; you will see that some JPF members regularly
give pats on the back and support to their JPF friends. I'd love to see more of that here

To be frank, I have also stopped responding to lyrics by those members that never, ever give back to these boards. I just get tired of that type of artist. It gets old really fast, no matter how engaging their lyrics are!

This community of amazing artists can only be as strong as tbe members in it, and it is my hope that more JPF members will use MANY more of these fabulous boards!!!

Emily


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http://emilysanders.net

Hi Brian and everyone reading,

Just have a few minutes to say that the comments have nudged me to share how my perception of things has been altered as this thread grows.

Perhaps the lyric board could benefit from some sort of 'standard' or posting/critiquing guidelines just so we could have a sort of mirror to see how we are 'measuring' up. As it is everyone does their best to be helpful and ethical in their own eyes. This may lead to 'judging' at times. Not knowing what the 'standard' is could leave a poster (especially a new poster) feeling "damned if they do and damned if they don't" so to speak since they don't know who's making the 'rules' or what they are. (Seems I do recall they are posted somewhere on the general board though).

However, as has been discussed in the past, once someone begins posting on the lyric board they begin to sense some ethical standards being practiced (albeit sometimes conflicting and confusing ones) They no doubt read comments from time to time that might not ever have been made if there didn't seem to be a vacume in the way of forum moderation.

Maybe it would be helpful afterall, to have a few basic hints for the forum to operate by since it isn't moderated? As long as the practice of turning them into a big box of ammunition to use against people with tattling or 'policing' is discouraged. Social groups naturally develop their own social ethics and standards, as has been mentioned above. Animals do it, gangs do it and healthy families do it. The difference in the standards though, is as different as night and day.

LOL. Aren't we a bunch of kindergartners!! Sorry, I just had to say that! And if anyone knows me they've heard me refer to myself as a 'kindergartner' more than once.



Ps. I was a member here for quite some time before I was aware that you (Brian) desired members to spread themselves over more than one board. I have to say this is a first for me. I've never been expected/invited to go to any certain place on a forum in the past. Have only frequented 3 other forums before yours since 1998 but was a faithful member to each. (Only one was a lyric forum--much smaller--and the best one was a fertility specialist forum---much larger with tons of subgroups-- http://ovusoft.com ). You could find what you were looking for and you generally reaped what you sowed.

For my lifestyle with 2 small children and chronic pain due to surgery for a fractured back 20 years ago, I'm limited as to how thin I can spread myself. One forum at a time is all I've ever been able to keep up with. Perhaps that has a bit to do with my personality as well, but if I were expected to spread myself any thinner, I'd have to stop posting altogether.

When I first joined JPF, I floated around the general board and all the other boards trying to find where I fit. Lyric board 3 is where I gravitated. Looking back, it was probably due to Skip Johnson's posts as much as anything. He's not posting any more but I've tried to leave the forum only to come back since now I realize several lyricists have become important to me like family.

If this is contributing to a larger problem, I will certainly go ahead and stop posting my lyrics if that would help. Ok, now I really am sounding like a kindergartner! LOL. But I don't mean it like that. Really. Perhaps it will force me to make the hour and half trip to the monthly NSAI meetings in Birminingham. I do tend to be a bit intemperate with posting at times which is why I limited myself to one forum years ago.




[This message has been edited by royaldghtr (edited 11-25-2006).]

Well rd, not sure about parameters, but if more entered the forum with your humble approach, instead of the look at me, aren't I great attitude, we wouldn't be having this discussion to begin with! Btw I bet you fit right in with the kiddies in school, or in other words it's an easy guess that they love and respect your child-like heart!

I agree with rd that a few basic guidelines about posting and critiquing lyrics might help everyone. Some of the things seem pretty obvious...but, to a new member...they might be extremely helpful.

Emily

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http://emilysanders.net