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I have a song, and a guy asked me what key it was in. I'm not sure.

the verses are a D A G progression

the chorus is F#m A E F#m A....then D A E D A E.

two keys ?

Well, I can't hear the melody, but from the chords it seems like you are in A with the G chord being a thrown-in flat seven, giving it a mixolydian sound (mixolydian mode is a scale that goes 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 1 or Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Flatted-ti Do).


All the Best,
Mike


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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Hi Mike,........Ok........

A B C# D E F# G# A = A major scale
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

vs where my chords are...........

A (B) (C#) D E F# G A
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 1

but..........

D E F# G A (B) (C#) D
........is the D major scale and they are all there as well.

I understand what you are saying about the mixolydian scale and all.
The A is always there in the middle of each little chord pattern change, but the song(verses) starts with the D and it is in the chorus as well.

The B and C# are the only chords not used in both key possibilities, which further clouds the issue lol.

I'll just have to identify the melody notes and/or post a demo I guess.....would make it easier.

Thanks,
Tony

Without hearing the melody, Mike's probably got the simplest solution. It's an unusual progression, especially going from the E at the end of the chorus to the D at the beginning of the verse.
And going from IV to I to b7 is also unusual.

If the D at the beginning of the verse sounds like it resolves to the A, it probably is in A all the way through. The E at the end of the chorus would be the V chord.

But another possibility -- which seems most likely to me, not having heard the melody -- is that the song modulates to A in the chorus.

The main reason is because you're mistaken when you say that all of the chords are in both the keys of D and A.

The E major chord is NOT in D. The ii chord in D is Em.
You start the chorus with F#m, which is the iii in the key of D and vi in the key of A. In pop music, using the iii or the vi at the beginnng of the chorus is pretty common. But the IV chord is probably the most common chord to start the chorus on in popular music.

The iii chord is only one note from the I chord, and the vi chord is only one note different from Boththe I AND THE IV.

Two things make me think the chorus modulates to A.
First, the F#m is the vi of A (virtually the same as the IV) and it resolves to A, THEN GOES TO E, NOT Em.
That is a VERY common modulation -- the V of V of the original key. (E is the V of A, which is the V of the original key of D.)

Then the pogression goes back to IV (vi) then to A. At this point it really seems like the key is A.

Lastly, notice that, since a vi chord has two of the three notes in a IV chord, the "two" chord progressions in the chorus are virtually the same if the key is in A.

First progression: F#m(vi, almost IV) A(I) E(V) F#m(vi, almost IV), A (IV)
Second progression: D(IV) A(I) E(V) D(IV) E(V)

Without the melody, I'd say it is in D in the verses and probably stays there until you get to the E major (V of V) in the chorus, where it modulates to A.

I ran it thru my tuxolian analyzer, then submiyyed the chords to the pearson-schmelling synthesis progrometer...I checked the results against the bendelman-gundleman chords diopsis and the izzy balin F#ometer.

You're in A

ok, 3 vote A. Good enough for me.

Mike, thanks again.

JB, thanks for takin time to map it out like that. I understand 80 % of it, and have the books here to get a grip on the rest.

Bob, thanks, any gizmo named Balin can't be wrong

(where'd that Jeff Airplane disc go ?)

i gotta get me one of each of them things Cobber.
Do they have them on eBay?
How to keep the numbers and chords in relatiojnship to each other Tony.
Use periods.......
A (B) (C#) D E F# G A
1..2....3....4..5.6.b7.1.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

[This message has been edited by Graham (edited 10-19-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Graham (edited 10-19-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Graham (edited 10-19-2005).]

thanks Graham I live I learn

No sweat Tony.
I came up with doing that as a way to keep the chords in place in lead sheets sent via e-mail as pastes ratyher than attachments, the latter being frowned on because of virus'etc, by most houses.
Done in word , they paste into posts properly.
here, doing it in the box, it took three edits to get them near enough.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Ever hear "Eight Days a Week"? Or about half of all traditional country songs?

The E major chord has the G# in it, which is not in the key of D major. It exists in the D lydian mode but is more likely to act as a short key change. In modern music keys utilize accidentals (sharps and flats which change key tones) to give the impression that we change keys for a short time and then return to home base. The E major in the key of D is called, among other things, the dominant of the dominant (or 5 of 5, or V of V); the two major; and the major supertonic.

Keys? We don't need no stinking keys.

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Ya know. I'm begining to believe ya Mike.
Just play the stuff and if ya ears cringe you off key.
If they smile ya ain't.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Like Mike said, I was talking about the key of D, not songs in D. The V ov V is a very common progression.

In theory class in college, we had to analyse scores this way. It's easier with the actual music because you can see what the melody is doing.

I didn't do a very clear job of explaning what I thought was going on. But if you think this is confusion, you should get into jazz substitutions some time.

That's when you really do need those stinking keys.

LOL. I just put up a litle Jazz thing Sharper Than A Tailor Made Suit, sort of built around my thoughts on Sammy Davis Jnr and when I read the final progression I had done substituting chords along the way to get whe notes I wanted in the counter melody, it frightened me.
I think it is still in C but a whole mess of those chords (and ther are a few0 are not listed as fitting in that key.
Works for me though, and i wrote the thing for me, so i guess it works.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Key's a funny thing. It used to be if you wanted to change keys, you needed a different instrument or some sort of "crook" to add to a horn. Bach around the time of Bach the tempered scale blew the doors off of Key.

Now, you can have a song in the key of C that wanders into G, D,
A, Eb, heck...it can go anywhere. Based on this, I'll start a new thread.

Fun stuff, folks.
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Tony,

Based on the information your provide---harmony only--this is my two cents.

SIMPLEST SOLUTION

D A G is I, IV, V in the key of D major therefore key is D major.

Reducing the chords you provide for the chorus to A, D, E, F#mi gives you I, IV, V, VI chords in key of A.

This verses are in key of D and Chorus in key of A.

SECOND SOLUTION

Treat the whole tune as being in the key of A and treat the G in the verse as being a b7 in the key of A.

WHICH IS BETTER?

Depends which effect you are after. If you are after strongly established key centres then option one is better.

If for whatever reason you must get across a single key impact with some harmonic ambiguity (or plurality) then option two.

While seeing your melody would put the issues beyond doubt, I suspect your melody is not likely to contradict the harmony. And that these remote opinions would stand.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Tony, I'm just a tad curious.

What is the practical benefit to you of this opinion that this song is in two keys?


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As you can see on the left, this is my first post here. I am very glad to be here.

I've read over over 300 posts since discovering this site and I though I might get to 500 before making my first post.

Well, maybe I'll get to 500 before my second post.

(Ooops. I've just seen a thread on music theory. That might be 500 before my third!)

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Cheers

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Taura Eruera
www.melodywriters.com

Hey Taura,

Welcome. My sister-in-law is a New Zealander currently living in Sidney.

Good analysis. I hope you read thousands and post often!

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Are there no sevenths in the song? Look for the last chord before the ending chord. That should be a seventh not a major chord. If it is say, E7 then you are in A. If it is A7 then you are in D. That's the trouble with playing all major chords you have a bit of difficulty assigning a key to the song. Just my observation, Frank V.

Hi Mike

Thanks for the welcome.

Mmmm. With your NZ sister-in-law, you know we might almost be family.

Softchrome is correct. The seventh chord as he describes it would be conclusive evidence of a major key.

In the absence of seventh chords however, the clue that is just as strong is the presence of I, IV, V chords together.

As in this case: D, G and A in the key of D, and A, D and E in the key of A.

If anyone needs a list of all these I, IV, V, chords you could download my One Page Quicky And Dirty Harmony Lesson that I put together for some of my guitar students.

Feel free to download from here:

http://www.guitarteacher.net.nz/download/First-Harmony-Q&D.pdf


You might be wondering Why would someone would want to exclude a seventh chord from a song fer crissakes, when it does such a great job defining a key?

Well, to answer that question let me invite you to consider chords and harmony from this angle.

>>Harmony is like a seven story house.<<

On the ground floor is the single note. Each note is usually a member of a scale. The impact of one note played after another is melodic.

On the second floor there are the two notes or the double stops: 2nds, 3rd, 4th, 5ths, 6ths through to 11, 12, 13ths etc. The primary impact of these double stops is melodic.

On the third floor there are three notes or triads. It is at this level that the *primary* impact is harmonic.

It doesn't matter whether you play a triad on 3 strings on a guitar or all six strings, a triad is a triad is a triad.

Triadic harmony is the easiest for people to hear. Triadic music makes the most money.

On the fourth floor are four part chords, namely, major 7ths, dominant 7ths, minor 7ths, minor 7ths b5's etc etc. The impact of four part chords is harmony.

By triadic standards this is dense harmony.

On the fifth floor are five part chords, for example: major 9ths, dominant 9ths, minor 9ths, minor 9ths b5's etc. The impact of five part chords is harmony.

On the sixth floor is six part chords, for example: dominant 11ths and +11's, minor 11ths, minor 11ths b5's etc. The impact of six part chords is harmony.

On the seventh floor is seven part chords, for example: dominant 13ths, b13th and +13's, minor 13ths, minor 13ths b5's etc. The impact of seven part chords is harmony.

Now think about each floor as being *home to different styles*.

All the pop styles live on the third floor: from worship music to country music, folk, rock, pop etc. They might hang out on different sides of the hallways on the floor but ***harmonically** they are the same folk. They base themselves heavily in triads.

On the fourth floor you get the pop end of Jazz, blues and reggae etc.

Occcasionally one of the triadicists will run up to the fourth floor to play a dominant 7 chord but that's all they go there for. The rest of the time they stay on the third floor.

On the fifth floor your get the funksters, James Brown et al and blues. This floor is also dominated by jazz players and arrangers. The triadic tenants *never* come to this floor.

on the sixth floor and seventh floors there are mostly jazzers left. The triadic tenants can't remember these floors.

There is a corresponding *rhythm* aspect to each of these floor too.

The basic principle is this: the more loaded the harmony, the less persistent the rhythm.

So triadic harmony, being the harmonically lightest level, can withstand the most persistent rhythm.

Here's how you can test that idea.

Just take a regular Chuck Berry straight 8ths rock rhythm, like Johnny B Goode rhythm part and apply it to a triad, say A major.

You could probably handle that rhythmn playing triad chords for a good set or so.

Now do playing 7th chords with a Chuck Berry Rhythm. How long could you handle listening to that?

Now do the same with 9th chords, 11th chords and 13th chords. It's hard work to listen to, right?

So the general arranging guideline is: the denser the harmony, the sparser the rhythm.

This is partly because the denser the harmony is, the more time the ear needs to hear and absorb the sound.

So to return to the question: why might someone want to exclude a seventh chord from a song?

Here's some possible reasons:

1. The writer wanted to just stay on the third floor and define keys using just triads in which case 1, IV, V chords are just perfect.

2. Maybe the writer wanted to highlight the dominant 7 chord by changing the rhythm slightly fron the rest of the song for the V chord rather than adding a fourth part to the chord (and having to adjust the rhythm)

3. Maybe the rhythm was great for triads but tough for four part chords.

4. The writer doesn't like 7ths chords

5. The writer doesn't know about 7th chords (which is probably mostly a blessing on the third floor).

Dick Grove introduced me to the house of Harmony years ago and the house has helped me out on many an occasion in many a context.

HTHU

Cheers

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Taura Eruera
www.melodywriters.com

I'm in a rush, off to Mobile to play a show, so I'll try to do this quickly.

Seventh chords do not define a key in the larger sense. You can be in the key of C and have a C7 move you to F then go to G to come back to C. Very strictly speaking, this would have you in the key of F, but in modern music this would be considered a chromatic passing tone moving the Bb note (the seventh in the C chord) down by a half step to the A note (the third in the F chord), If the Bb was a small part of the piece, it would be in the key of C.

Another example: what if you played F, G7, then Am. Are you in the key of C? or Am?

Determining key is a little more complicated than either looking for the seventh chord or looking for the last note in the melody. These are good indicators, but not definitive.

I'll be happy to debate when I get back on Monday

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music