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Regarding Drum Machines

In everybody's opinion, what about a drum machine is the weakest in terms of fooling the average listener? In other words, what is the biggest giveaway ?

If you could elaborate that would be really helpful like: is it the snare (why) , kick drum (why), cymbals,? Is it the perfect timing and perfect attack, etc...

Thanks

the "dead" giveaway is the cymbals. This is due to the lack of luster most drum machines have in their cymbals.

the worst enemy is poor programming. Real drumming is not so spot on and has variances in it's volume levels from hit to hit.

The best drum machine is the Roland V-Drums when played by a real drummer.

Jody

Alan,

In my opinion Drum Machines are a thing of the past.. Acid Drum loops are the best thing since sliced bread. Imagine having real drummers mic'd perfectly with a choice of thousands of beats and measures. Fill ins
that are crisp and have the little nuances of real drummer (Thats because it is real)
Then to top it off if you want import the wavs of the perfectly mic'd individual hits into a sequencer and make your own fills and beats. It gives you the freedom of laying down your drums at the end of the song instead of being stuck with doing the drums first. Today you can even have well known drummers play on your CD (as long as you credit them) Joey Kramer and Mick FLeetwood
to name a few have Loop CDs out. More and More Drum loop CD's come out everyday.
I recommend you buy ones that are in WAV form and not in .CDA. CDA has to be broken apart
in a program like soundforge.
Drum machines are a dying breed and Computer based sequencing and Loops are here to stay..
JMHO Listen to some of my tunes and see if you can tell if those drums are not real...

David
http://www.daviddouglaswright.com

Yup, loops are cool. But they are certainly not the be all end of drum programming. Sequences tied to samplers with a real drummer playing the sequence is also not a be all end all.

the reality is any thing can be a tool to make music. From the oldest drum machine to the newest loop, or even a drummer who hasn't been born yet. It's all in how it's used.

I've heard loops and samples that sound as such, and I've heard them sound real. I've also heard real drums sound terrible.

Jody

I agree.. it's a great tool. I think the question is flawed.. if your real goal is to sound exactly like a live drummer.. get a live drummer.. I think drum machines sound great when they are programmed to sound like.. drum machines! Keeping beats that live drummers couldn't... doing things sonically that a 2 handed drummer couldn't.

Most drummers aren't really live drumming on records. They overdub quite a bit. This is no better or worse in my view than using a drum machine. But I think you should use tools in a musical way. I think when you try hard to fool someone, you're putting the energy into the wrong place. If you have a drum track that sounds great in context of the song, who cares if it sounds like a real acoustic drummer?

We've had a similar discussion about vocal enhancements. I say.. anything that makes cool sounding music is a plus.

Brian

I agree, if you are looking for a drum sound that sounds like a vintage drum machine you
can sequence a old 8 bit alesis if you wish.
The possibilities are endless with samples.
I am actually originally a drummer and I pay
attention to the little extra beats in songs.
Sequencing and loops are very good for my particular situation since I don't have the
time to mic all the drums and go through the
hassle of mixing them. Of course I am just a writer and I am not going out to perform my songs. If I was to perform these songs than I would record real drums my self.
I am not trying to fool anyone and say my drums are real I personally want them to
sound real in most cases. There is no reason why you can't mix the two also.
I have done a couple songs with both sequencing mixed in with loops. Why not
do all three together. Real drums with some
loops and some sampled sequencing....
I must admit I have become more of a programmer than a drummer... I still have to think like a drummer and hear those fills
and nuances in my head.

David

This may be going a little sideways but...I have a stand alone recorder and no computer ability for loops so I use a alesis sr-16.

The cymbals are defintley the weakest aspect.they just can't be controlled for the most part.
For kicks i usally mix at least 2 together... 1.attack and 2.decay .To make it vibe I quanatize decay and not quanitize on attack or whatever sounds best to me.

same for the snare.To do rolls it can change the attack and timbre.
The hi -hats I mix open -closd -tight and crash and rides for cymbals ... and do the same as above.

I think it's more of making an arrangement and articulations the way a drummer would play it than the sounds.The sounds are difficult to improve ...the way you manipulate them is endless.

for the most part I'm betting most folks are recording music that has a "real drummer" vibe.Thats what I'm attempting to create.
if i do a lounge jazz tune i want it to sound as close as possible.I don't want it to sound like a drum machine with impossible to execute grooves thats not the sound.Unless you are trying to create new music and the drum machine sound is the foundation for the percussion.Everyone I know wants it to sound as close to a human as possible.

it's the same principle for synthesis.I try to play and manipulate the sound like the instrument.Not like a synth.I have a gtr synth and it is prone to do things a keyboard won't .Just like a gtr you squeeze until you find out what makes it go "right or wrong" and manipulate that into the sound.Sequencers can play notes but we uniquely provide the "grease" to the wheel of the notes.


Butch



[This message has been edited by D-Rex (edited 04-05-2003).]

Yeah...

I was gonna sound smart here..but Brian beat me to it.

The most often repeated mistake made by non-drummers programming a drum machine is putting in too much stuff.
Remember..a drummer only has 2 hands...keep it simple and it'll usually work better.

I also use an antique alesis sr 16..

they're sturdy and easy to use..the sounds are ok..except for the cymbals..

Good luck !

Bob Young

Anyone ever program a sampler to trigger chord hits from an instrument to be the rhythm? Like a bass for kick drum and a guitar for the Snare?

Something I plan to check out this week.

Jody

I use an Alesis DM-Pro for a drum module and a Roland Octapad for the triggering device. I play the Octapad with regular sticks. The DM pro has good samples, including cymbals and playing with sticks enables me to get a drummer "feel", even though I do overdub some of the parts.

for recording I used my gtr synth as a midi trigger for the input into the Sr-16 to controll the dynamics better than poundin on a itty bitty pad.

I think waht you mean is something i heard joe satriani do live The drummer would trigger pre- recorded parts from a sampler

Butch

I have an old Boss "drum machine" that I haven't really even plugged in for a couple of years. I also have a Roland DM5 for samples as well as thousands of individual hits. The only drum machine I've used lately has been the drum sequencer built into Reason and that's only for dance/hiphop or film music.

I do use a lot of drum loops and I also use a lot of live drumming - almost all of the live drumming is overdubbed.

A big flaw I've noticed in programmed drums (other than the previously-mentioned cymbols and over-playing) is that with a live kit, you have an interaction between the various drums so that when you hit the snare a certain way, you'll also hear one or more of the toms ringing, too. The bleed-through with the hi-hat and snare is also very important in an "authentic" drum kit sound - let alone that drum samples (vs loops) NEVER have a room mic as part of the sound. That alone ruins the illusion for me.

Drum loops certainly can be more realistic - in SOME types of music. The loops can capture all the things that are missing from single-hit samples. The subtle phrasing and variety of different types of strikes are still missing if you repeat a loop forever and it gives it away.

I like 'em all and use single hits, loops, and live drumming depending on what the situation calls for.




------------------
Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

Larry,

I use to have a old Boss Dr. Rythm.
I don't miss it at all.
I use to spend a week sometimes programming
the darn thing for one song.

David

Hey David! -
Wow this is what I do now! On a Zoom 123 machine. Making the patterns and then laying them in as steps for the complete song. I swear that snare on my Kit #6 and Kit #3 sound real! Anyway- I'll surely find out if I'm right when I fire these songs up on my montors and do some real mixing.

Larry, that's where the V-drums rule in the electronic drums. You get a live drummer to play 'em. Then when you mix them they have internal control over the room, heads, tuning, etc... everything. Then when you mix them properly with the room sound, it gets pretty hard to tell 'em apart. At least I feel like I'm getting good at fooling people with them.

Jody

IMO, the biggest flaw in drum-machine tracks is that they are often (usually?) programmed by non-drummers. Every drummer I know is better at playing drums than I am (I am a guitarist). My drum parts sound lousy because I am not a great drummer.

NOW....would any of you with the expertise and experience please post a short primer on drum loops. I am totally in the dark about them, but would love to learn more. If typing is not to your liking, maybe you could post a link to a site that would help explain it to me.

Thank you in advance.

Well, the basics are that you use pre-played, pre-recorded 2-bar, 4-bar, or 8-bar sections of live drums (or programmed, if that's the style you need). You can then repeat these, add fills, etc.

Mostly, these basic loops are played at a set tempo. Some CDs you buy will have the same "loop" recorded at several different tempos.

You can either record them live by using a sampler loaded with the loops and trigger them via midi from your sequencer, or you can import them into your computer DAW and mess with them there.

Many samplers also allow you to stretch and/or compress the tempo somewhat so that these loops will fit into the tempo of your song. Most DAWs also allow this.

There are also ways to slice these loops up and stretch the tempo even further. Recycle, Acid, and Live are three programs that do this sort of thing.

There's a guy I've used in the past who does a great job of making either custom loops for you, overdubbing live drums to your stuff, or you can buy some of his pre-recorded loops fairly inexpensively. His name is Jim McCarty and he's got major label credits, etc. He's a pro session drummer in L.A. and can play just about any style. www.drum-tracks.com

He's got lots of samples of his work at his site. I highly recommend him. He's honest and goes out of his way to make sure you're happy with his work.

One of the best on-line sites to audition different drum loops is www.soundsonline.com which is the home site for East/West, one of the largest sample CD distributers in the world, I believe. Lots to check out there.

Here are some other sites where I've either downloaded or bought sample CDs or loops (some loops are free - but usually lower quality):

www.dooleydrums.com
www.loopasonic.com
www.loops.net (a site listing places to get loops)
www.primesounds.com
www.pockefuel.com

I think the key is that your music will generally have to fit into some sort of 4/8-bar phrasing for loops to work well without a lot of work on your part. They can also be very inspiring to start your song.


------------------
Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

[This message has been edited by Lwilliam (edited 04-21-2003).]

Larry,

Thank you for your generous and helpful post. I'll be checking this stuff out.

I've got a roland R8m that I'm about to list on ebay. If anyone is looking for a good old drum module, this one is quite good.

Jody

To fellow Non-drummers:

Just stumbled across this great article on realistic use of drum machines

http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/oct99/articles/20tips.htm

Nice little read there.

Also, another great way to get a fixed up feel with non-quantized drums is with a sequencer like Logic or DP. You can do a percentage quantize so that it will pull it in a little or a lot depending on how hard you set it.

Jody

I apply the same principals to drum seqencing / looping as I do my synth. It just takes too long to make an instrument sound just like the real thing, so I accept the sounds as they are. Of cource my acustic sound modler is a different story all together, and I find myself tweeking it constantly. I just refuse to give up on that one!
I have used the drum editing grid to seqence quick hitting intsrument sounds. Seems easer than doing it in the "piano roll" set up.
I do like using sound fonts (midi triggered loops). Makes pretty realistic sounding drums. I also like using looping programs (like acid) for the ability to quickly build tracks (before I forget what it was I wanted to do). I'm stuck with mix man right now, which aint all that great. Just have not been able to justify spending the money for Abledon's Live program (the best IMHO).
Anybody see the Twix (I think) commercial, where the drummer is using a V kit to trigger samples? Now that's really cool!

I just bought my first drum machine a few weeks ago, a Boss DR-670. I like the interface and so far, the learning curve's been pretty low. The only problem I have with it is that (as far as I know) you can't cleanly change tempos mid-song. I'm working on recording a song with this drum machine, one section is 135 BPM while the rest of the song is 140 BPM. In order to record the drums properly, I had to do it across several tracks, since I can't change the tempo mid-song. Like many others, I'm hoping to get as realistic of a drum sound as possible. So I don't program insane fills and simply use the drums to compliment the song, much in the same way a real drummer would. And everyone who said it is right: synth'd cymbals suck. They never sound like the real thing, no matter what you do.

-Shawn

[This message has been edited by flatlandsmedia (edited 05-07-2003).]