JPF Home Page Forums Lyric and MP3 Feedback Lyric Feedback Forum 2 Rant about lyrics

Hi folks. I haven't been around as much as I would like but I have some older lyrics I'd like to post for review. They were written by my collaborator (I normally create the melodies and he writes the lyrics). I have a rant that has to do with them (not what you may think) but I'd appreciate some feedback first to see if my rant is justified. I'll explain in detail after I get a few responses.

thanks much,

Van

TALL AND THIN

The fat man’s walking faster now
He keeps his face turned toward the ground
He wonders how he got this way
He wanders through another day

Resigning himself to his fate
He stares down sadly at his plate
He can’t believe what he just ate
His heart is straining from the weight

CHORUS
But in his dreams he’s tall and thin
Women falling all over him
He wakes up with a little smile
If only for a little while

The fat man hears the children laugh
They point at him as he walks past
He tells himself as he looks back
I wasn’t always this damn fat

CHORUS
And in his dreams he’s tall and thin
Women falling all over him
He wakes up with a little smile
If only for a little while

It was in dreams he slipped away
His heart just quit on him that day
He whispered through the fading light
I won’t be a fat man tonight

CHORUS
And in his dreams he was tall and thin
Women falling all over him
It woke him up with a little smile
If only for a little while

Copyright 1993 Paul Barile and Van Borden

Hey Van,

I don't know what market this is aimed at. To me it doesn't have a commercial country feel and I can't speak to other areas. It's not the kind of lyric I'd have a big interest in hearing on the radio. JMO

Bill

------------------
We too often throw the word "great" around like it was a frisbee, instead of the manhole cover it should be

Bill,

Thank you for your reply. LOL, knowing the way commercial country radio is these days, I suspect you're right about it not getting any airplay (not a knock on country music or your tastes in general, just a statement about the way things are). I'm not even sure it'd have a chance on any mainstream radio station but that's okay.

The song is meant to make a statement, not necessarily to be commercial. Really, I appreciate your opinion. If you have time, please tell me why the lyrics don't appeal to you. I'm curious to know if your opinion lines up with other critiques of the song.

thanks again,

Van

Wow Van,
Not sure I can agree with Bill's opinion.
This one just oozes deep emotions.
So many of us have another view of ourselves, whether it be how big or small we really are, or how attractive we are.... how intelligent...how successful...
Since we don't look directly at ourselves... our physical image in our mind may not always match what others see.
and our personal opinions on success...or wealth as well.
I can feel very deeply what this guy feels. well.......not to the point of giving it up....
the biggest problem with this lyric is the use of FAT. the PC police are gonna nail you. It's the perfect word here. and switching to plump, obese, large......is not the answer.
But some are definitely going to take offense.
Not sure how else to put it, though.

In the first verse you could always pull "fat" from the first line and say

the () man's walking faster now....

and then in the second verse first line say

Resigning himself to his WEIGHT

but that seems like a copout..you know.
it shouldn't really be necessary to do that.

to those who can look past all the PC overkill crap.... this would cut to the core.



------------------
Harriet
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/harrietamesmusic.htm

Mornin' Van,

Weight's a big (no pun intended) issue nowadays...even the gov't is concerned. Probably gonna be a law against too many Big Macs in the future...

This is sad and maybe not commercial, but the song itself is very well-written. Think I'd switch lines 3 & 4 in V1 and omit the "he"..."keeps his face turned toward the ground...wanders through another day and wonders how he got that way."

I feel for this person...been trying to lose 5 pounds for a few months now...so I can just imagine how hard it would be to lose a hundred or more!

Hi Buzz...

it definitely hits a nerve with lots of us..
that plate the guy's lookin at..mirrors
back..a larger self..to many folks.(me thinks) no matter
how slender they are....

all that aside...what jumped out at me..
was so much rhyming...not that it's bad...
i'd just like maybe a bit more break-up in it.

best.........
Kaley

Hey Van,

I think the lyric is well written, rhymes and meters well. It may work in pop or folk, I just don't think it would work in country, where my writting tends. My reaction is mostly visceral, I guess. It's not a situation I want to hear about in a song.

Bill

------------------
We too often throw the word "great" around like it was a frisbee, instead of the manhole cover it should be

[This message has been edited by lijemtu (edited 06-23-2004).]

Wow folks, thanks for the input. I personally think these lyrics are almost brilliant (remember, it was my collaborator who wrote them so I'm not stroking my own ego here ). Now for the rant...

I took this song to my monthly NSAI meeting and the song was not well received. Perhaps the overall message may be disturbing to some but some of the comments I got were nonsensical to me.

One guy said that perhaps there should be something in the song about good things the guy did during his life that would make people emphathize with him or miss him. He pretty much said that unless there is something "redeeming" about the guy, he's just another fat slob that died (perhaps not the exact words but this is exactly what he meant). The others agreed that there was a need to remove the word "fat" and that something was needed to make them care about the guy.

Well, I didn't say anything because I didn't want to come off as defensive but these folks pretty much proved the point of the song. Society looks down on obese people and considers them lazy slobs with little or no redeeming qualities. HELLO!!! That's exactly the point...

By using the word FAT (besides the fact that there isn't a better way to put it in the context of these lyrics) my buddy is basically saying that this fat man is all society sees. It's totally irrelevant whether he made a "contribution" to society or had "redeeming" qualities because few if any would get close enough to him to find out.

To write something about what he accomplished "in spite" of being fat, would suggest that the man's life would have had no value if he hasn't somehow done something that society deems as "redeemable." As if the fact that he was fat made him a bad person.

The lyrics are pointing out that this is the way a large segment of society views obesity. I don't know if that's what makes this song sad or the fact that so many would prove the point of the song without understanding what it was saying.

Thank you all for the input. I'm just glad that you folks get it.

Van

I think it's fantastic. One of the best I've read in awhile. As for reactions from other songwriters, I don't buy it. There is no need to build the guy up, to me.

Good luck!

Good Grief Van!
Those people are being ridiculous!
My point about perhaps taking the word fat out (which I personally do NOT think is necessary) was that fat people would be offended...or others would THINK that they would... (which is how this pc stuff usually goes)
But to label his behavior or value based on him being fat? That's shameful!
I would be ranting too!

This is the kind of song that could move me to tears. ( and not very many do)

------------------
Harriet
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/harrietamesmusic.htm

When it comes to opinions on anything, one man's briliant is another man's blah.
I can undetrstand it not lighting the room up at a writer's night.
I don't see any impact in this one at all.
It simply doesn't say anything that is going to change the world like message songs are aimed at doing.
It didn't make me think.
Me. I was doing it, I would lighten it up a bit. Pun intended. Make the out chorus something like.
In life he saw him tall and slim.
But in death truth finaly showed.
It took a mobile crane, and an eighteen wheeler.
To get his funeral on the road.

After all. Everybody knows fat people are really jolly old souls and just love to have a laugh at their own expense.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

DukeWill, I absolutely agree with you. I don't see why the other songwriters in my group didn't get it. I think it not only belies a bias on their part but it also makes me wonder how much creativity they put into their own songs. IMO, the message in these lyrics is quite clear and anyone who wouldn't feel for this "fat man" either has a problem with reading comprehension or they just can't see past the lines on the page. Either way, it makes me wonder how seriously I can take their critique of any of the songs I bring.

Harriet, I got your point the first time but I should have made that clear in my previous reply. You are absolutely right that some people might be offended by the term fat and for the exact reasons you stated. It's a shame that it's that way because people should be taking offense to the close mindedness of others who look down on people who have problems. Sadly, the fine art of sarcasm is lost on too many people.

There is no better word than FAT for this song and it's a shame that too many people will miss the point because of that word. It's even more of a shame that the decision makers in country music seem to have no guts and would probably never put this on country radio. For that matter, it probably wouldn't get on most mainstream radio stations but a rap song about b!thes, hos, gangs and ill-gotten gains would get plenty of spins on certain stations. I guess if this was a rap song, my buddy and I might have a chance...

Thanks again for all the responses. You have reaffirmed my belief that my NSAI group is not quite up to snuff in the art of critique. They also seem to have trouble thinking outside the box. Perhaps Nashville isn't the place for my music after all - well, at least the Country genre.

Hi Graham, I totally agree that any given song is not going to appeal to everyone but I don't see how they could have missed the point by such a wide margin, even if they didn't like it. I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic with your comments about the 18 wheeler and the thing about fat people being jolly. I hope so...

I certainly don't think that my songs or songs I have a part in creating are going to appeal to everyone but I honestly don't see why some would be confused about the message here. Not people who want to be songwriters anyways.

As far as changing the world, I don't think this song has that aim. It's just an observation about how shallow some people can be and those who get it will understand, relate and reflect. It's certainly not going to change the minds of those who have a disdain for the obese.

Van

oh, never mind

[This message has been edited by lijemtu (edited 06-23-2004).]

The very few times I have resorted to sarcasm in my lifetime Buzz, I have bit my tounge and apolagised quick smat.
It is how I would approach a song about fat.
Simple as that.
I don't see society does nopt see past the fat in a person as a whole.
Who gave a rat's arse Fats (They Call Me The Fat Man) Domino was rotund.
The Australia and New Zealand icon the late and great Ricky May who's size basically killed him?
Nope.
All thinking people saw and see them for what they gave.
Lemme tell ya.
I got a bloke down here who is forever telling me I am getting fat.
Given he is 12 years younger, four inches shorter, ten pounds heavier, and can't pick up, and carry my anvil I most often now use as a weights machine, I am convinced the bugger does not have a full length mirror.
Or, he is the bloke this song is about.
The fact some writers are not seeing what you see in this could either mean they are not looking deep enough at it.
Or it could be said better so more see the point.
Graham




------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Hi buzz

my major complaint is that obese/fat grown-ups are usually rolly polly little kids, they don't become fat over night like your lyric suggests. Unfortunately scientifically speaking fat is "hard" on the arteries, so tyring to convey his lack of self esteem created by an uncaring society is what killed him is an unenviable task.




------------------
http://www.ampcast.com/music/26305/artist.php

Hello Van,

Nice to meet ya.
I think this is well written myself !

Calvin

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/calvinstewartmusic.htm

Hi Buzz, I bumped a song up on this page for you too maybe view it concerning the same subject...

Also, I do believe we all have a distorted image of ourselves. The title of the song I bumped up could be offensive to some...and the use of the word in your lyric can be as offensive. Saying it without saying it is the challenge. Have you ever heard of a song called "Aqualung"? They never actually call him a "you know what" do they? No, they go around it pretty much but we all understand what's going on. But what of that tune by Queen? hmmm, genre makes the difference it seems.

sweetjoyce,

As far as I can tell, there is no part of the lyric that suggests that the fat man in the song became fat overnight. There is also no part of the lyric suggesting that an uncarring society killed him.

What the lyric suggests (to me) is that a certain segment of society does not care anything about him because all they see is a fat man. It's not trying to say why he was fat or how he got fat or even if he was a good person - just that he was fat and that's all many people saw. As a result, they never got close enough to him to find out whether he was a good person.

It doesn't judge anyone other than that certain segment of society that looks down on him without knowing anything about him other than what they see.

Thanks for your input.

Van

[This message has been edited by Buzz Grudge (edited 06-24-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Buzz Grudge (edited 06-24-2004).]

Fair enough Graham. I appreciate your opinion.

Van

Thanks Calvin. I appreciate your input.

Hi Linda,

I didn't see anything wrong with your title at all other than the fact that the characters aren't really "making love" are they?

I know that using the F-word in this song can be seen as offensive but honestly, isn't that just for people who are not inclined to search for the deeper meaning? This particular song is intended for a somewhat more sophisticated audience than the easily offended. Whether it reaches that audience effectively is certainly debatable but I wouldn't advise my collaborator to change it - not that he would anyway. It's too central to the theme of the song.

thanks for your input and I liked your song too.

Van

Not sure what this has to do with anything, but I always had a fondness for Fat Man In The Bathtub. And this one kinda reminds me of another oldie called Fool On A Hill. Got that same outside lookin' in feeling to it.

I like it.

I hate to come off sounding PC (nod to Harriet), but FAT just may be tossed around a few too many times here. Understatement might take it a little further. First line might just be enough. You've shocked your audience, and drawn them in at the same time. No need to say it again. It's now stuck in their heads.

That said, I'd delete all the other FATs, come up with another way of looking at it. And I'd also consider cutting some of the HEs at the beginning of so many of the lines. Pronoun abuse. You don't need 'em all. Audience can keep track.

IMO. Then again, I've been known to be a little fatheaded at times!

hey

well, im the writer of the song that linda bumped up for you to read buzz, and im curious to know, after reading this, what you think?

the song is called "what does being fat feel like?"

it was written more as a question about ones self, but to a reader just seeing the title, they may think im a thin man wandering what being fat is like, and how could they go around like that? (which is nowhere near what its about).

so i may change the title to what the last line is, just to get people to at least read/hear it first, then comment..

yada yada yada.

as for your song, it depends on how its delivered. i think it should be delivered slow and depressing, like YOUR HIM, rather than delivering upbeat. upbeat would make it seem like your making a joke of a serious subject.

my only nit about the lyrics, is to not go back to the chorus at the end, because the chorus has him waking up. you want to put the emphasis on the fact that he passed away in his sleep.

i would also take out the fact that he died in his dreams. let his dreams be what they were, a vision of a healthier man. have him go out in his sleep, but not his dreams.


scott

PS i wrote the song i wrote, thats similar to this subject because i relate to this guy in your song, but im not sure whether i should be relating to him, because this guy let societies vision of him get the best of him.........I DONT.

im convinced society is wrong, and that im really thin, and maybe to some people i am.

MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT THE IMAGE THAT I CONCEIVE OF YOUR CHARACTER IS MUCH LARGER THAN THE IMAGE I CONCEIVE OF MYSELF, BUT I DONT KNOW WHETHER THE NEXT GUY WOULD SAY THE SAME THING. MAYBE THE NEXT GUY SEES US BOTH AS LARGE.

[This message has been edited by abraham is burning (edited 06-24-2004).]

Buzz

Being a fat man myself this piece didn't inspire me to have any feelings good or bad about it other than I think it's well written.
I got to be honest with you I really enjoyed the read.

This is what I like about Graham..
"Given he is 12 years younger, four inches shorter, ten pounds heavier, and can't pick up, and carry my anvil I most often now use as a weights machine, I am convinced the bugger does not have a full length mirror"
He he that's what makes reading these posts so much fun


Good write!

Need more emotional conflict.


Eric

did i say that?

buzz....whatever...just do it man! Growing tired of standards at times and just thinking we should all start up our own record label and radio station on the subscribe to radio....and get divided air time for every song we write every week of the year!

[This message has been edited by Linda A (edited 06-24-2004).]

There are some good things here-I particularly like the third verse; it shows he has spunk. Saying "brilliant" must refer to the sentiment expressed, not the actual craftsmanship. A lyric should flow; be a natural progression. Cohesive, clear and focussed.When he says "damn it", he doesn't sound resigned like the rest of the lyric. Speaking of resigned, "Resigning himself to his fate" implies that he's about to eat a plateful, which doesn't jive with the next line.
Why is he walking faster? He doesn't wonder why, or how he got this way -he knows exactly.

Being the title, one would think "Tall and Thin" would be in the power position (last line) Actually "Tall and Thin" is a poor choice because this isn't about that. Some of the rhymes seem simple and obvious-more interesting choices could have been made.
There are many more things that need work here.
It appears to me that the NSAI group was insightful, helpful, and right on the money. Step back and look at criticism objectively.

P.S. You can't condemn people for judging fat people. All people are judged at first glance. If a punk loaded with tatoos and facial metal comes into your store-you get a first impression, getting to know him may alter or confirm that. You have to EARN respect. Again some good ideas here; needs work. Best of luck!




[This message has been edited by 9ne (edited 06-24-2004).]

I wrote a song to tackle about being fat. I wrote the song about a bar that's a meat market. All kinds of people there. Including a fat girl who hits on me. And I say "fat girl." On purpose. In the song, I am not interested in her but I become interested in her as the evening progresses due to her personality. It was attempt to use a volatile moniker, "fat girl," and make it work in song. I dunno if it did but I like it.

As for country radio, odds are about a billion to one it would get there anyway, even if it's a masterpiece, so, don't worry about it. Second, Lyle Lovett would do something like this. Of course, he's not played on country radio, so, that proves they don't know what the hell they are doing. The guy is brilliant.

Michael, good points about pronoun abuse and too many FAT's. I'm not sure if I want to suggest that my friend to remove them because I think that using FAT a few times kind of latently drives the point home of how many times the guy has heard the term IMO. It's something worth considering though.

Thanks for your input...

Van

It must have been late last night because I commented on a totally different song that Linda had on the board. I just looked at your song and I like it. I do think the FAT should be removed from the title in this case because I don't think you are going for quite the same effect. It's a good tune and it seems like the others have made some good suggestions.

Eric, I like Graham too and I appreciate the way he approaches songwriting. I value his input and just happen to disagree with him this time. But he's only being honest about how he would approach the subject and what he likes. How can I argue with that?

Thank you for your input and I'm glad it didn't offend you. I could stand to lose a few (okay, more than a few) pounds myself.

Van

Linda, I agree totally. BTW, when I looked at the song I thought you bumped, I looked at the wrong one. Must have been brain dead last night... Anyway, I did check the one that you were actually talking about and made my comments in another post. I like the idea and I think it will be a good song when he's finished with it.

Van

HIDee Buzz!

"Short People" was a Successful Song because it was a Great Parody. This'n's perhaps too Blunt to Fly in the Marketplace.

Over 1/3 of America's Overweight...many spent Tons of Money tryin' Not To Be So. Others have Accepted Themselves as they Are..& that's frankly Healthier than tryin' to be Like Evabody Else, IMO.

My problem with this lyric is it attempts to destroy this "Self-Acceptance" factor in the name of "Health". Skinny people die from Heart Attacks, too. (& SOME Heavyweights have a pretty full plate when it comes to Chicks, as well.)

Perhaps this'n's just Too Stereotypical for me, but it doesn't exactly Sing Right.

All JMO, Natch!
Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

9ne, I thank you for your input and I can appreciate your points but I respectfully disagree with most of them.

The difference between your critique and the ones I got from my NSAI group is like night and day. You approached it from a position of craftsmanship not that the "fat slob must have a redeeming quality or he's just another fat slob." This is a huge distinction.

He was walking faster to avoid contact with others. It's implied, kind of a show me, don't tell me thing. I like songs that allow you to take a line and think it through for yourself. Yes, he knows why he's fat but he also wonders how he let it happen. It's more a rhetorical question that he's asking himself in frustration.

He doesn't say "damn it." He's actually saying, "I wasn't always this damn fat." That is angst, not spunk. It's about the frustration he feels over letting himself go, not that he's suddenly going on a diet and starting to excercise. This is further supported by the earlier line about resigning himself to his fate. He's giving in to his depression, not getting better.

You are right that we judge others at first glance. The question is why? It's just the nature of how we are but the brilliance of this lyric is that someone who is willing to really examine what is being said, should be asking him/herself why so many of us judge appearance? It's not coming out and condemming in so many words. It's just stating things about this one man's life and the fact that he probably dislikes himself a lot more than those who judge him without knowing him.

That's an awful lot to put into words in a 3-4 minute song but I truly believe most people will get it. Of course that doesn't mean that it'll be a hit song or that any publisher would want it. It just asks the listener to take a look at this one man and hopefully they'll consider what he goes through before they judge him. This song is not going to get through to those who have no empathy for the weaknesses of others.

On another note... What I find frustrating about the NSAI group is that they often want details in the lyric that are not relevant to the song. For example, I sent the NSAI critique service a song about an older woman who could be pretty much anybody on the street and it tells a bit about how she lost her husband but still dreams about going dancing with him. She's lonely and has lived a hard life but what did the guy doing the critique ask? He wanted to know how her husband died. Why is that relevant at all? He could have died any number of ways but the only thing important is that he died and she's alone and she dreams about the times they were together. Who the hell cares why he died?

I agree that a lyric needs to be clear and concise which is why it doesn't need to get bogged down in pointless detail. But also, IMO, a lyric should bring pictures of things in your own mind and allow you to fill in the blanks with whatever makes the story work for you. No need to get stuck on irrelevant points.

I realize that in order to be "radio friendly" a lot of people want the story spelled out for them. I personally like lyrics that make me think. In other words, show me don't tell me. And of course, these particular lyrics are not going to make everyone think the same way. That's okay with me. I know every song is not going to appeal to everyone and the same song is not going to evoke the same emotions from everyone who hears it. The good part of that is that somebody out there is bound to like it.

thanks again for your input and your approach to the critique.

Van

You sure the increased interest in the "fat" girl was due to her personality or just that you had a few more drinks as the evening progressed? (see Graham, I have a sense of humor too... ).

Seriously though, you are right. Artists like Lyle Lovett, John Hiatt, Harry Chapin (RIP) will rarely, if ever get airplay. I personally think this says more about the state of radio than it does about them.

Van

Howdy Stan. Thanks for the reply. This song's obviously not for everyone. I'm okay with that...

When you coming to Chicago so I can buy you a beer?

Van

For what it's worth, while I was reading the lyric, I wasn't thinking country. I was reminded of the Beatles' "the fool on the hill" and felt the emotional tug of the song in a similar way. This reminds me of subject matter that someone like Tom Waits could cover, too.

I think this one's terrific - along the same caliber as Lennon/McCartney songwriting. I'd like to see this one entered in the JP Folks lyrics contest too. Remember, great songs don't always get airplay.

------------------
Tom Tracy
www.soundclick.com/tomtracy

Thanks for the reply Tom. I appreciate the input and you're correct. It's not really a country song. It's more folky and I'm sure my collaborator would be more than proud to be compared favorable with Lennon/McCartney. You're the second person who posted that it reminds you of "Fool on the Hill."

thanks much

Van

Well, Buzz
I liked the song. It was well written. I thought it very sad but sent a powerful message.
I was looking for a twist at the end so it set me back a little when you killed the poor guy off. I'm not sure I would take that approach with this one. I think I would have opted for a twist or message to close it out. But, I don't really have any suggestions.
Otherwise I think it a goodun'

------------------
www.soundclick.com/billrobinson

Bill
Live with a song in your heart

"I think this one's terrific - along the same caliber as Lennon/McCartney songwriting"
Oh ...My...God...Tom. Please tell me you're being provocative...

[This message has been edited by 9ne (edited 06-24-2004).]

Hiya Buzz,

Hey, I resemble that remark! LOL!!!

It's amazing how much plate glass has changed the older I get. Seems I can actually SEE it changing all the time. Bad thing about it, is it keeps making my belly look like it's sticking out more and more!(...I'm 230 on a 200 frame!)

Guess they don't make it like they used to!

Good start, keep polishin' this one!

Stan ;-)

------------------
Songs Worth Hearing

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/1/monsterhitsmusic.htm

[This message has been edited by LyricMosaics (edited 06-24-2004).]

Gee 9ne,would it be the worst thing in the world if he really meant it?



[This message has been edited by Buzz Grudge (edited 06-25-2004).]

Hi Bill, It's funny you mentioned a twist. The first time I ever played this for my mom, she was sad. She had been hoping that the character would start working out, slim down and find a woman to love him. LOL, that's just the way my mom is...hoping for a happy ending.

Thanks for your input.

Hi Stan,

I could stand to lose about 40 pounds myself. Fortunately, I have a large enough frame that I can carry the extra weight but it gets a little harder as the year go by.

Thanks for your input.

Van

Hey Buzz,

So does Rex still run the NSAI chapter up there in Chicago? I was a member there for years (before JPF). My comments:

Their response is a predicatable one from someone using NSAI songwriting dogma. That's not to say that it is right or wrong, simply that they have a very rigid and specific idealogy on how songs should be written. I think it's a great way to learn to write good songs if you're just learning, but it's not a great way to write amazing songs or meaningful songs because it's predictable and rigid, while being technically sound and solid.

I like the idea of the lyric because it lets the listener (or in this case reader) make their own assumptions about if this person is or isn't worthwhile. That's not always easy to do. I think the fact that it evoked some strong responses here means your friend is clearly doing something right. So few lyrics I see anywhere (including on our own friendly board) evoke much of a response of any kind. Many are done very well technically, but they often don't really make you think a lot. This one does and succeeds on that level. The fact that some people seem to really like it should be what you focus on, but we all seem to gravitate and put far more focus and thought into the negatives. If I get 100 positive comments and 1 negative, I will always dwell on the negative more than the 100 positive ones. (And many artists in all formats do the same). Now whether this lyric would make for a great song, a lot depends on melody, production, style and performance. You could make this lyric into many different songs and easily change the perception of what it is saying and how you should feel in many different ways by altering the other elements. The fact that so many are posting here means it has artistic merit. Where you take it from there I guess is up to you when you add the music. Imagine the difference in perception between a edge punk band doing this in a manic way to a soft lilting female singer songwriter doing it? It could mean very different things depending on presentation. Let the NSAI folks give your feedback, but take it with the same grain of salt you take the huge compliments. They both are likely right and wrong at the same time.

One last comment: When are we going to get to the point where people write from instinct and from wanting to make an artistic personal statement instead of worrying about chasing the commerical edge? Sure, you're may get farther in the eyes of an NSAI chapter, but where does that really take you as an artist? Better to create art and then put on your commercial hat, figure out your audience and sell it to those folks. If you don't naturally write commercial country (for example), why force it? Writing music can benefit from a set of basic skills, but then you just gotta put your heart and soul into using those skills and hope you can reach people with it.

Brian

Brian, thanks for all that. I totally agree with what you have said. It's great to have the basic tools to get you started but yes, we've been writing for many years. We probably break the "rules" more than we don't but I see the rules as something to get you started. Where you take it from there is entirely up to you.

My NSAI group is co-coordinated by a couple of guys, Jeff and Damon. Both are nice guys and I like everybody in the group. It just seems that, as you said, the NSAI dogma rules the day. That's okay. I can live with that. I may even renew in August for one more year just to give them more time to come around to my way of thinking . It's still a great way to network and get to know other writers.

I really don't take the critiques personally. I try to listen with an open mind and be as objective as possible. But some of the things they say are flat out ridiculous. Now if I tell them that straight out, I believe that they are just going to view it as me being unhappy with their critique. If I handled it in exactly the right way, I could pull it off without pissing all of them off. I'm just not sure if it's worth the effort to be so diplomatic, so I just usally say thank you for listening and leave it at that.

Of course my collaborator and I would love nothing more than to have commercial success. But in the end, it's more important that we are true to ourselves and our vision for the music.

On the other hand, as we get older, we may opt for money over idealism...

Thanks for your input.

Van

Van,
Actually you already DID handle it correctly. You asked for THEIR feeback and they gave it to you. It would really be inappropriate for you to argue their opinions, even in a friendly way. Someone's opinion on a piece of art really isn't something you can argue. An opinion can by misinformed, but it's still a correct reaction by the listener. If you don't like Bob Dylan and love The Spice Girls, I could argue reasons why there's more to love about Bob Dylan, but it doesn't change the fact that you simply like the Spice Girls better and of course that's what makes art so personal and powerful. For these folks, their method of writing is like their religious or political beliefs. Very personal. You can educate them and bring your view point into it, but directly arguing it with them when you've asked for their input is the wrong time to do it. Instead, make your points and views known when they ask you for YOUR input and opinion. Or bring it up when no one's specific art is being discussed, but rather the techniques and approaches are.

As for writing along with the herd to be commercial, there are a lot of folks who will tell you they know how to make your work more commercial. And they are often correct. It's not that difficult to compare something to what's already successful. But writing something commercial often still doesn't actually cause it to make money and become successful. That's the weak link in the process. If it actually worked (i.e. write like the NSAI teaches and if you do you'll have a hit) everyone who does would have a hit. Instead, you should view it differently. NSAI teaches you how to write. Just as a school teacher teaches a kid the alphabet and how to make complete sentences. No matter how well they teach you those valuable lessons, it doesn't mean by writing with that knowledge that you can write a novel people want to read, even if every word is spelled right and every sentence is complete, it may be boring as hell to read.

This is a reason why music and songwriting educators often get too much credit and too little. All they can do is help with the mechanics, but they can't really help with the art. They can help you market your art, but they can't make anyone like it, no matter how many rules you follow. In the end, there's no real formula that will ever guarentee success. Even when labels pay for airplay and spend zillions of dollars pushing a song, more often than not they fail. So all you can attribute it to, in the end, is that big intangible: Art. And the criteria that we use for our awards: Does it move you? If you can move people, how you get there is irrelevant. If you follow all the rules, all the proven techniques and all the conventional wisdom from those who have done it before, but it doesn't move people, it still fails.

You're fortunate to have an outlet to get feedback. Why bite the hand that gives you what you ask for. Also remember that praise can be wrong just as criticism can be wrong. Often the truth lies in both. Something can be flawed and still loved artistically. Something can be technically perfect and still fail. Listen to what is being said and use what works. If you need an ego boost, then enjoy the compliments. (We all need that right?). If you have a feeling that something isn't quite right with your work, listen to the theories about what is wrong, you may find an answer there. But in the end, you have to create what you have to create. It's the expression which is often the most important part of making art, not the consumption of it. If you simply want to make a living, find an easier line of work where things are more black and white and follow a logical path. Art is rarely logical. It's emotional.

Brian

Great advice Brian. I knew all that on a base level but sometimes a person just needs to vent his/her frustration. I think all writers/performers want acceptance from others on some level, whether they admit it or not.

You are correct that people judge art according to their likes, not mine. I just wanted to know if there were others who agreed with me on these lyrics. I expected some to disagree but I think I would have had to re-examine the song if no one agreed.

I will continue to bite my tongue as you have wisely counseled. I'm grateful to you for providing a forum where I (all of us) can vent occasionally. I'm also thankful to the others who contributed and allowed me to rant - whether they agreed with me or not.

Van

[This message has been edited by Buzz Grudge (edited 06-25-2004).]

Brian raised some interesting points-however you DID say you wanted to have commercial success. You also said by your own design.
Brian stated:
"In the end, there's no real formula that will ever guarantee success." True, but there certainly ARE formulas that will guarantee you don't have success.
I've critiqued many beginning songwriters, mainly it's the younger ones who will invariably say, "Yes I know I have eighteen verses and the title isn't in the song and I've purposely written it so the public will have to figure it out."This sounds remarkably like what Brian has stated when he brings up the "ART" element.Brian appears to be saying, Yes go ahead keep making your art till you're successful. I don't agree. Commercial songs have to attract you from the get go-they have to be liked right away. I'm not disparaging Brian in any way, I feel his opinion is only applicable to established writers who can afford to write art because of their standing. A newbie doesn't have that option. Yes you can refuse to compromise and write 30 songs about dismembering flowers or you can compromise and write a metaphorical song about a young lady who's life is like a flower. The latter example may give you a chance. There ARE no exact formulas for success but there are guidelines to point you in the RIGHT direction...

[This message has been edited by 9ne (edited 06-25-2004).]

9ne, I did say I would like commercial success (not too many wouldn't) but I also noted that it would most likely never happen with this particular song. I mainly wanted to get some feedback on how these lyrics would be received by others here and compare that with the feedback from my NSAI group.

As I said, your critique was focused on the craft and I appreciate that as well as the things you consider when critiquing a song - all these things have their proper uses. I certainly will keep your points in mind when my aim is to write a song with commercial potential (I have a few in the works now).

I only wish my NSAI group had handled it the same way you did. I don't feel I'm learning a whole lot when the best they can do is a "personal" attack on a person that doesn't even exist except as a character in a song.

Anyway, thanks again for your feedback.

Van