JPF Home Page Forums Lyric and MP3 Feedback Lyric Feedback Forum 2 You're So Cold

Quote:

but this lyric just...isn't much.

[This message has been edited by TINK (edited 04-28-2002).]

Couch,
Bobbie was just sharing her experience with a workshop. It was productive and she learned from it.

Your learning style seems to be intrapersonal. Her learning style is interpersonal. Neither is better. What works for one doesn't alwayswork for another.

I don't recall the topic of the post being "Workshops - good or bad?"

A good place to discuss that sort of thing would be in the songwriting forum.


JeanB

I stand by that statement, Tink. it's not much. weak hook, story, imagery and wordplay. not to mention some awkward lines. if you've got a great melody, fine. well maybe. without my posts stirring the stew, this thread would've died. there's not much about the lyric to comment on, which was my intial point.

Jean, Bobbie brought the workshop into the discussion. that made it fair play. intrapersonal, interpersonal...those're just fad words that mean very little to me. esp since I've said time and again that I've learned and continue to learn from others. I just learn from their work and experiences in books and records. if such things were discussed on this forum, I'd learn from them here, too. and i've also said that if folks are impressed with the fruit of those workshops, by all means they should take part.

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Hi Anthony,

Thanks for your insights. However, I must point out that what we, as lyricists, often fail to realize is that our lyrics are only part of a "song". To create the words in the absence of music is to write poetry in song form. This was, indeed, a committee "job"...a committee made up of two musicians and one lyricist. Yes, there was considerable give and take...and yes, I also thought that the lyrics I had before we even got together held together better than what we ended up with...but they were not a "song". This version is. Therein lies the difference. I also agree that I have undoubtedly written better, but without the work of musicians mine will never make it to cd or radio. This WAS merely an exercise, but a most valuable one for me.

Despite your vote of confidence in my lyrics, Anthony, I have to disagree. I cannot make it "on my own"..at least not until I am capable of developing my own music for my lyrics..and that will be a good long while. Until then, I need musicians...and I am well aware that working with folks who are not lyricists will entail a lot of give and take. While I believe I write some material that is quite commercial, all my lyrics still need music. As for Couch's lyrics, his style is not mine, and while he has a decent handle on wordsmithing, I honestly have not read anything he has written that contained any life-altering lessons. Personally, since I do want my work to be commercially viable, I think I will stick to working with folks who have sold their material and who work as staff writers for some of the major publishers and labels. I will never be another Couch, so why would I wish to emulate his work?

Bobbie

Hi Bob,

Not much I can add to this...except thanks for saying what the rest of us were probably thinking.

Bobbie

So Graham...what do you REALLY think?

Hi Dave,

Yes, you are right. It definitely was a great experience for me, and for the other participants. I better get my synopsis finished before I have nothing more to say. LOL Thanks for the kind words.

Bobbie

Wel I wasn't going to add to this Bobby but as you ask. Bob said it without the cuss words better than I did on both the atempst i did before i got to the mumbling stage.
I do know though, I mentioned the full song aspect of this and That I was a bit stunned the comments coming from sombody who not all that long ago saw how much chopping and channeling it took a real songwriter (as comared to a lyicist if ya lurking Anthony)to make his Good Hearted Woman into something worth listening to.
You know how i think about the effort you put into the craft Bobbie and i am just saddened to see a real productive post like this get the crap in it it hasa.
As Jean said. There are forums for that stuff if you know how to navagate past the lyrics forum.
I got a not bad, even if only for fun lyric out of it anyway.
Sorta expect The Dawg will to.
Regards.




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http://artists3.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Graham_Henderson/

Howdy Wyman,

Yeah, controversy just seems to follow me around. LOL You are right about it being difficult to change the short lines. Once we got the musical format for the chorus, we didn't find anything else we could change it to under the time constraints, so we left it. I wasn't particularly satisfied with the last half of the chorus myself. Your suggestions are definitely appreciated. Thanks so much.

Bobbie

Hi Sister,

I couldn't have said it better. The three of us came together as three individuals with different styles and abilities and actually produced a workable song under a very limited time deadline. The end product has something from each of us but is actually the creation of a fourth entity..the combination of all of us. It was a very healthy thing for me to experience. Thanks for the thoughts on this.

Bobbie

Howdy Mz Tink,

I do hope you and some of the other JPF folks will be able to participate in some of these seminars in the future. This was merely the first of this type. We plan to have similar seminars throughout the year, probably every 3-4 months. This was the guinea pig run. There are some things we need to change for future sessions, but nothing major. Mostly just need to get the info out earlier IMO. The best part of my participation in this one was that 4 of the pro writers (and myself) arrived at the lodge 3 days before the sessions actually started, so i was able to forge some solid relationships with them prior to the arrival of the other participants. Which reminds me..LOL I have to send them my recipe for guacamole. LOL

I will keep you and other JPF'rs posted on future seminars of this sort.

Bobbie

Hi Couch,

At eighteen, a lot of young folks are not totally sure of what they DO have...and family and friends are not the best sources to listen to. In Joanna's case, the pros did tell her that she had to either "fish or cut bait"..in other words, she had to find that fire of commitment or she would not make it in the business because there are thousands of talented young folks out there with a real burning to make it. Some lack her talents..but they can be molded into what the public will buy. They cited plenty of examples of less than talented folks who had the savvy and the packaging to be put together into a buyable image by the labels. You can label it whatever you choose, but "wishy washy" is a tactless choice IMO for that period that most teenagers go through where they are simply uncertain of what to do with their future. This was an opportunity for Joanna (and the rest of us) to establish relationships with people she would never have been able to get close to in any other forum. Yes, she did receive validation...but that is something I believe every artist thrives on, including you. Otherwise why do you post your work for others to read? Certainly not for the constructive criticism.

There is nothing wrong with instigating a discussion here. No one forces anyone to read or respond to anything. It is all about choices.

Bobbie

Howdy Tink,

It has often been said that we cannot control or change what someone else says or does, we can only control how we allow ourselves to respond to their words or actions. Some things (and people) are just not worthy of letting them get under our skin.

Bobbie

Bobbie, I post primarily for exposure, criticism second. and it seems to be paying off. you can say what you want about commercial viabilty, I'm signing songs. and I'm doing it my way.

Graham, your post seemed very incoherent, I'm not sure how to respond.

anyway, life is too short for this sort of thing. on to the next song...

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Hi Couch,

Your words often come off sounding like a pronouncement, whether you intend them to or not: "it's not much. weak hook, story, imagery and wordplay. not to mention some awkward lines." Those are merely your opinion, and I take them for that because you are entitled to perceive things any way you choose...but to imply that someone who sees things differently than you do is wrong is simply ridiculous. It is by making such "pronouncements" as though you see yourself as some kind of omniscient lyric god, that makes the rest of us self-acknowledged mere lyric mortals either laugh or cringe. For myself, I tend to laugh simply because your appointment to the god pedestal was a self appointment, so the title is a bit empty.

We are all struggling to get to that magical place where our work gets to speak for itself. Professionally, I am seeking whatever assistance may be out there. I won't hold a reservation for you to any of the future workshops, but I would sure encourage others to participate who also find magic in being in the same place as other creative individuals.

Good luck,
Bobbie

I really have tried to stay out of this one...but I do want to make a few observations.

1. Couch is consistent. Couch made the arguement over two years ago on another board that all a beginning songwriter really needed to do was buy a boxed set of Hank Williams' songs and take notes...not waste a ton of money on books and seminars. He still says the same thing.

2. Couch is predictable. Periodically he will feel compelled to respond to a lyric or comment in such a manner as to draw maximum attention. It may be just my imagination, but it seems to fall in 28 day cycles.<g>

Regardless, since couch always takes the contrarian view, and ends up getting attacked worse than the initial lyric, he is sort of the "Anti-Christ of the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval", and causes many more people to read and comment on the lyric. This is good.

3. Couch is the consummate "Erkel". Like the "Steve Erkel" character on television, having wreaked havoc and leaving the board strewn with intense emotions and hurt feelings, couch will invariably feign innocence and ask, "Did I do that?"

At least that is my observation over a couple of years.

dawg

Hi again, Bobbie. I feel I owe you and this lyric a real critique. It wasn't right for me to post what I said without giving you one. So here goes. This lyric is okay, but merely that. It's gonna need great music to help it more than a better lyric would. "Feel the fire" and "icy indifference" work with the hook, yeah, but they sound awkward in and of themselves. The chorus is good except for the "froze" line, which sounds awkward too. It's like you're being forced to say those things just to reinforce the hook.

I'd say "THAT I'd rather live without" in line 8. Verse 2 is the best part of the lyric, but "co-exist" sounds clunky to me. And the bridge is okay, but merely functional. A "what's gonna become of us" angle would work better, IMO.

So there ya go. By a "committee job", I meant the lyric had no real personality. It's a McSong, so to speak. Couch's lyrics are full of personality. But do they seem commercial? Very rarely. So yeah, you two are apples and oranges. I wasn't asking you to eumlate his style. I just think that his lyrics are often cohesive in ways that many lyrics I see aren't. They're just well put together, IMO.

Lastly, what is supposed to be gained by being given a two-hour deadline to write a song??? I realize that these workshops have time constraints of their own, but surely no one is seriously suggesting that writing a song in a fixed amount of time is a good idea. A song that's written by a deadline generally isn't going to be as good as something written with no deadline, I hope you would agree. Of course, there are always exceptions.

Anthony

P.S.: I forgot to tell you and dawg, but believe or or not, I *will* be coming to Pineyfest in June. I'll be staying at the Dickson Econo Lodge, just so ya know. I look forward to seeing everyone there!!!

Dang it Dawg. Ya forgot to tell us if you like the song.
Regards.
Graham




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http://artists3.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Graham_Henderson/

Gee Graham...

How do you critique your wife's song...

Very carefully !

Bob

I am staying out of this one...but am
making a very general statement.. (least that is my intention )

pronouncements, objective thoughts, subjective thoughts, and absolutes.

and this is as much FOR ME...and TO ME.....
as it is to ANY of us.( so if the shoe fits)... Bobbie hit A
nail on the head. PRONOUNCEMENTS........
I think WE ALL do it...I DO at times.

forgive me..if i ramble..i'll try not to

When we write words in typewritten fashion..
it is VERY hard to always know..what the writer intended. As human beings...we sometimes..read our own thoughts into a statement..based on OUR feelings we are having at the moment we are reading,..I am guilty of that.. ON the other hand..when our critiques come off as being ABSOLUTE PRONOUNCEMENTS.. again..(I have done the same thing at times)..leaving
LITTLE or NO room for the majority of the readers
to see any other way of doing something OTHER than the way the Critiquer/Commenter
Suggests,...many times the Critiquer/Commenter comes off appearing as IT's MY WAY .(period)

think we need to keep in mind...there are
objective and subjective reasonings.

does 1 + 1 = 2...yep....that's an absolute
( in my book, anyways).

are there different ways to get to the grocery store?


...WE all see things differently and use SUBJECTIVE reasoning.
I would think it would be some thing we'd want to keep in mind...

that if we choose to use a pronouncement-style of commenting...to at least think
how it comes across...and that's a CHOICE
ONLY WE can make..every time...we comment.

The above is in NO WAY advocating...a
oh dang, what is that called Judy? got it,...Admiration Society...think we discussed on old board.... I really wished I could see as many things when i critique..as many of you do see..I 'm not at that point in my writing.

Whatever we choose to say on this board... I think it comes down to..how we say it..

Now..i think i'll go delete a few of my own pronouncements..

kk

Hi Bobbie

I’m glad you had a great time at the symposium, I’m really looking forward to seeing your report.

I must admit I’m not convinced about this lyric, but I do appreciate that it was produced quickly and under unusual conditions. I think the hook is good “You’re so cold it burns me" and there is some clever use of the cold/hot theme. On the negative side the chorus seems to lose focus from “I don’t feel ashamed” and I think there is a general problem with lack of feeling, for example “just going through the motions” is a bit weak.

On the whole, for a couple of hours work with two strangers this is pretty good going, and keeping all three parties sufficiently involved is a feat in itself.

Cheers

Nige

Bobbie,
I'm gonna hold my critique until I hear the song. Lately I have a better time of doing that- I'm glad you had an excellent experience in Col. and from what I've heard so far it was well worth it!
Pam

Lol Bob. That would depend on if she'e cooked tea yet or not.
As to how many of them very thingies you put in front of the carfully at least.
That is the point Kaley. 1+1=2. Does it add up?
Unfortunatly some of the lyrics Anthony suggests we use as a guiding light do not add up in spite of his assuring us they are the bees knees in cohesive writing.
Even a basic "You can write" writer's workshop would iron that out.
Remember way back when Iddy biddy John did the Saddle me up thing?
I love that song in spite of the line with Female Goddess in it.
John was even good enough to make a version of it without the "wrap your legs around me", line in it so i could play it on my "gotta be a bit descreet' radio show and it gets a whirl nearly every week.
I still think that female goddess line sucks but John loves it so I tolrate wincing at that spot because of the overall fun thing it is.
I have stopped playing Rainwater Coffee in spite of liking the song muscally because the lack of adding up is just too much for me to listen to.
Good point Kaley Willow.
Regards.
Graham


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http://artists3.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Graham_Henderson/

Hi Everybody! I just had to stop and read this debate. Let me just say. I was invited to participate in the seminar Bobbie hosted and I was flattered. If I had a few bucks extra, I would have been there with bells on. I was sorry to have missed the opportunity to network with some of my favorite writers. If you are able to hob-nob with the biggies, you are more likely to have some of their sparkle rub off on you. I also feel that knowing the best in the business can sometimes put you in the right place at the right time. This songwriting business is a bit more than talent. Some times the best never gets heard. My purse forces me to choose the doors I can open, even though I would like to get more mileage out of knowing those in the places I would like to be. I hope I have completely confused those who are having such a hissy fit over a seminar that Bobbie is so willing to share with us at a price even I can afford!! BOBBY---Thanks for being a JPF member who believes in our motto, We Are All In This Together. You are being criticized for making your own opportunities and I applaude you for your insight and your ambition while thanking you for your willingness to share what you have learned from the experience. Keep the info coming. You are appreciated. Idamarie

Hi Everybody! I just had to stop and read this debate. Let me just say. I was invited to participate in the seminar Bobbie hosted and I was flattered. If I had a few bucks extra, I would have been there with bells on. I was sorry to have missed the opportunity to network with some of my favorite writers. If you are able to hob-nob with the biggies, you are more likely to have some of their sparkle rub off on you. I also feel that knowing the best in the business can sometimes put you in the right place at the right time. This songwriting business is a bit more than talent. Some times the best never gets heard. My purse forces me to choose the doors I can open, even though I would like to get more mileage out of knowing those in the places I would like to be. I hope I have completely confused those who are having such a hissy fit over a seminar that Bobbie is so willing to share with us at a price even I can afford!! BOBBY---Thanks for being a JPF member who believes in our motto, We Are All In This Together. You are being criticized for making your own opportunities and I applaude you for your insight and your ambition while thanking you for your willingness to share what you have learned from the experience. Keep the info coming. You are appreciated. Idamarie