JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum Performance advice for non-smoker?

Hi,

I'm on the open mic circuit and getting bugged... in my area you can find open mics, but most of them in bars are, well, in bars. I don't smoke and hate to breathe it. Last night I waited 90 minutes to go on and then just bailed. I had four kids puffing in front of my face and I was getting sick. And since I mostly do quiet ballads, I realized no way was I even gonna get heard. I am getting discouraged...is it like this all over? Don't people want to LISTEN to music any more? And why in this day and age do so many beautful young people throw their health away and SMOKE???????

Hi, Jeff -

Welcome to Just Plain Folks

I really relate to your dilemna...yes...it is true that many venues allow smoking. Depending on where you live, some cities, such aas Los Angeles, have banned smoking from most clubs. And, many small coffeehouses do not allow it...so...stay away from noisy bars if you need a place to play quieter music...There are many places to perform that may be offer you cleaner air: outdoors events - such as festivals and fairs, songwriters' showcases and some restaurants....

I am very sensitive to smoke, and can only be around it for a short period before it bothers my allergies and asthma...so....I try to perform in places where it's not in my face...

As for your question about young people smoking...I think there are a variety of reasons that some young people smoke: peer pressure, addictive behavior, lack of impulse control...which is sad because,a s you know...it is so bad for the body...

Good luck...

Emily
emilysanders.net

http://cdbaby.com/cd/emilysanders

This is actually pretty simple: if you can't stand smoke, you may have picked the wrong field of endeavor. I'm sure there are coffehouses that do not have smoking. Concentrate on them.

The issue of grabbing the attenton of the audience is another matter. Basically, it is your JOB to get them to shut up and pay attention. You have to earn it. I have been at noisy open mics a thousand times, and I have seen a few performers stop the room on a dime with a great song or a great performance. That's what it takes...be GREAT.

Good luck, and have fun.

I'm with Mr. Coyote.

It goes with the game. They pay I play. I love a good crowd but I'll play for the bartender.

If you are in it for fun you can pick and choose venues. If you are a big star you can pick and choose venues.

If you are a regular musician you play where they will pay, bad acoustics, bad crowd, chicken wire stages, and cigar smoke.

The province where I live has banned smoking in all public places,including bars.They are crying foul,that they will be put out of business,maybe.It might open a way for another type of business where people can go just to hear music,pay a couple of bucks at the door or something.Now, if you want to hear live music you have to go into a smoky bar or spend mega bucks to attend a concert or something.Larger coffee shops is what we need.LOL

A couple things:

You don't say where you live nor did you post it in your profile (you really should, but that's another topic).

Most cities have non smoking options. If you live somewhere where smoking is allowed, you can still look for places where it isn't or at least it's restricted. If no such place exist, then another option is to create your own open mic and make it non smoking. (Yes, it's legal to say something is a non smoking event and to post signs and enforce it if the venue owner will cooperate). We did this at the show we did in New Brunswick, NJ (The Spook Handy Open Mic). Everyone cooperated. You can also find a venue that has at least a separate room, so that folks could go to the other room to smoke, but not in the room where the performers were. Most people are reasonable if you approach the issue in a friendly and practical manner. But it all requires you to take the initiative to fix what it is you don't like versus being a victim of it or bitching about it. (That's how most problems get solved in the world in the first place right?).

As for getting people to shut up and listen, Truman had it 100% correct. We do shows all over the US and are fortunate in most cases that our "crowd" are mostly other artists and their friends/families. About 75% of the time people are quiet and respectful. About 25% of the time, they aren't. But even at the nosiest shows, we have artists who step up and silence the room during their performance because they are GREAT. There are artists I know that can take command of the noisiest rooms and their are artists who would likely get any listening room you find to stop paying attention to them. You need to be the former. It takes practice, skills (which can be learned) and a raw talent which probably can't be as easily learned.

Contrary to other opinion, I don't happen to believe that you have to just "take it" though. You have freedom and choice and you should use them. You don't really have to "suffer" for your art. But you do have to WORK HARD for it if you want to be good enough and smart enough and willing to work enough to avoid the things you don't like (i.e. noisy rooms and smoky bars). Most people aren't willing or able to what it takes.

Brian

I have severe asthma, and therefore, can't do the smoking environment, either. But, both Massachusetts and Rhode Island have passed anti-smoking (indoors) laws this past year, so it's all changed. And -- no one lost business. That was a pretty lame claim. People have to refrain from smoking at work, school, airports, malls, pretty much everywhere. They just passed laws saying that now, you can't smoke in any place that serves food or drink. Stepping outside for a minute isn't killing anyone yet.

By the way, don't get me wrong. I support the right to smoke if you choose to. I also just support my right to breath and not be hospitalized too often.



Erik / Baz
www.eriktyler.com
www.soundclick.com/eriktyler

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"The only way to get anywhere is to cross a few lines."

I'm with you, Erik... and I am sorry to hear you have asthma. That really does limit your options and you have to take care of yourself. I can tolerate a limited amount of smoke, in a large rooom for example, but there is otherwise no point in getting a scratchy throat and ill over it. Of course, if I ever do get a paid gig that turns out to be that, I would feel obligated to go through with it.

And in fact, a county near me has also banned smoking. It turns out that one of my favorite singers - who quit smoking years ago - got a steady gig at an Irish bar there on Sunday nights. At first I thought it was beneath her (she's a big deal, 4 albums), but you know what? She pulls in her peeps every Sunday night and the owners love her for it! We all eat and drink like pigs because there is no smoke!

So, I am just going to be a little more choosy. I'd rather play to small coffee houses anyway while I'm getting my act together. I'm always fiddling with my set, etc. and you learn more about what works and what doesn't. As long as I don't choke, it's better than blowing smoke. Hmmmm.....excuse me.... :-D

I've had people on my mailing list straight-out ask me to play more non-smoking shows.

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Scott Andrew
Lo-fi acoustic pop superhero!
http://www.scottandrew.com/music

[This message has been edited by scottandrew (edited 07-22-2005).]

The best thing that has happened to Rhode Island in a long time is going SMOKE-FREE!

I have non-smoking friends that would not come to hear me play in bar because of the smoke. I understood the reason, still it was frustrating... Now, I doesn't matter... NO Smoking anywhere

I think you should start lobbying to get things changed where you are... gonna happen eventually anyway!

Keep Singing
Joanne




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• The Best is Yet to Be - Joanne Lurgio -singer/songwriter
  www.joannelurgio.com

Yes...for goodness' sake...

Let's protect the health of all you folks drowning yourselves in coffee and alcohol.

My goodnessw...what a bunch of wooziies!

I'm an ex-smoker...I quit almost three years ago..am I happy I did?...absolutely..

do I wish more people would?..absolutely..

Do I think everybody has to live according to my preferences?..absolutely not.

If you want to protect your health stay at home under the covers.


Jeeez...go out into the streets of a big city and breathe the air..then sit next to somebody smoking a cigarette and say it stinks and is a health risk..

BALONEY !

I do think if cigarette smoke is that offensive you should just avoid it..find places to perform where there is no smoking...

But,,banning smoking...let's try prohobition again...it sure was swell last time we tried it..
Legislating health and morality...what a great concept.

This country is going nuts..
I know...I've been nuts most of my life..I recognize the signs..

My wife still smokes a couple of packs a day...
She still looks pretty good to me..

Kisses nice too

Bob Young

The smoking ban in Massachusetts is the best thing that has happened for musicians and bartenders in a long time. Its great not to have to throw my clothes in the washing machine immediately after I get home from a gig and my studio no longer smells like stale smoke from bringing the gear back in. It does mean there're lots of folks running outside for a quick smoke when the band takes a break, but those who like to breathe have really benefited.



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Marty my new home

If you look at the glass and see it as half full, drink up!

For the second part of your question - getting folks to listen - try here: http://www.justplainfolks.org/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001640.html

(There aren't too many topics we haven't touched on around here before - just got to poke around and use that search function)


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Marty my new home

If you look at the glass and see it as half full, drink up!

After watching a good friend pass on from lung cancer, I can't say anything positive about smoking. I'm not for making new laws, but I wouldn't go out of my way to oppose smoking laws particularly.

I play two regular gigs. One has no smoking or drinking and the other has smoking and drinking. Luckily, the evil gig has good ventilation and is primarily a restuarant. Smoky gigs bother me a little so I tend to avoid them. Smoke irritates both my wife and daughter which has made me more aware of atmospheres.

bob can back me up on this. When we were coming up, no one even mentioned smoking. Everybody smoked, and more people coughed in church.

If it bothers you, avoid it. Brian, Truman, and others had some good advice. How about writing smoking/non-smoking themed songs? Get a few of these popular on your circuit and you might start drawing a crowd that's not drawing on coffin nails.

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Smoking is one of the few "personal habits" that really affects other people. In a public place, you can sit right next to me and drink, and I don't have to join you (although I would, but that's another topic). If you light up a cigarette, we BOTH have to smoke. That's the difference.

Yeah...gee....none of the musicians or bartenders I know smoke...right...go outside and see who's out there..bartenders, waitresses and the band with the guests...

If you don't want to be someplace where people smoke..DON"T GO !

If you don't want to work where people smoke..DON'T.

How dare you tell me what I can and cannot do..oh well...like I said..prohibition sure stopped Americans from drinking..guess some of you folks just weren't paying attention.

And I thought amimal rights people were fascist...they got nothing on the anti-smoking crowd.

I smoked for years and worked around other smokers..it was fine..

Now, I don't smoke and often work where there are smokers...I'm still fine..

Grow up !

Bob Young

Sorry if I seem testy...this stuff makes me crazy..
It's hard enough to find places to work..now you're gonna let a little cigarette smoke keep you home?...Jeeez...

I had to support a wife and send 3 kids to school being a performer..I can just see me coming home to my family and saying "No...no paycheck this week...they allow people to SMOKE while they're getting drunk at that place...I just can't stand for that..and...hey...my shirt smells like cigarette smoke...what's worse than that?!?"

Jeeeez!

Oh and Marty...there's a cure for that cigarette smell...it's a new thing called soap and water.

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 07-23-2005).]

Well, Bob, I'm glad you don't have severe allergies aggravated by cigarette smoke. Obviously, you don't care much for your health, either. Hopefully, you won't develop lung cancer or some other smoke related illness.

Personally, I do care about my health so I do stay away from places that are smoke ladened. I also resent that here in AZ, that severely limits where I can go because the laws here do not uniformly ban smoking in all public places yet (one of many reasons I'm considering moving to CA).

Before you start accusing "the anti-smoking crowd" of being facists, keep in mind before you and your ilk lit up, the air was cigarette smoke free. Second hand cigarette smoke has been proven to be a hazard to one's health. If you want to pollute your body (even though you claim you stopped, you are still sucking it in), go for it. But I resent you feeling it's alright for people to endanger my health just because they are too selfish to respect my rights to a healthy environment. YOU are the one who needs to grow up!



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Jeannie

I thought Steve Martin's gag was funny way back when:

"Mind if I smoke?"

"No. Mind if I fart?"

<<I smoked for years and worked around other smokers..it was fine..>>

Bob - most of us have seen enough people affected by the negative aspects of smoking to know it isn't fine.

<<It's hard enough to find places to work..now you're gonna let a little cigarette smoke keep you home?...Jeeez...>>

No - I never did let it keep me home. But now all those places still have music and I don't have to deal with the cigarette smoke.

<<there's a cure for that cigarette smell...it's a new thing called soap and water.>>

Excuse me while I hose down my 40 year old tube amp to get the smell out of the grill.

Bob - if you're coming home to someone who is still smoking 2 packs a day, you're not going to notice the difference when you get home.


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Marty my new home

If you look at the glass and see it as half full, drink up!

I love the stuff about incidental smoke being harmful...especially when folks say it's "provewn" to be true..guess what///they've proven Elvis is alive and bumble bees can't fly.

Phooey!

I've been around this planet a while...it's strange that suddenly we have all these folks with severe allergies going into a tiff if they get near a cigarette..baloney!

Most of them are fakers looking for attention..

I've got a 40 year old Fender Twin..it was on the road with me for years..I defy ANNYBODY to sniff my amp and tell me they smell cigarette smoke..More BALONEY..

When I quit smoking I got the glad hand from alot of non smokers..guess what..I like smokers better !

The idea of creating a "healthy" environment where people can pour alcolhol or caffeine l;aden coffee into their systems is ludicrous.

Think about it..it's just nuts.

But..that's OK..like I said we've legislated health AND morality in this country many times..the self righteous are at it again..let 'em go..

God Bless you all..like I said my wife still smokes and I lovbe her.

My somn smokes, my daughter doesn't..I love them both.

If I want to see a great band or individual artist, I'm not gonna let a little cigarette smoke keep me away...
If you want to stay home..that's fine..leaves more room for me and my friends...

Bob Young

What "proof" Elvis lives? Comparing tabloid fiction to the scientific studies proving secondary smoke is harmful is like a child saying there is a tooth fairy because it once found a quarter under its pillow even after a parent has confessed to putting the quarter there. The child wants the tooth fairy to be true so in its mind, it is. The erroneous concept that aerodynamically bumble bees can't fly is most likely due to yet to be discovered variables not factored into the equation. Even the scientists who say bumblebees can't fly will admit that. To put this more simply, you are basing your opinions on faulty assumptions and information.



I'm 56 years old so I've been around a day or two myself. Cigarette smoke has affected my allergies all my life so there's nothing sudden about that. I've got the medical history and tests (and the bills) to prove I'm not faking. Did it ever occur to you that mayhap people are finally realizing they shouldn't have to put up with inconsiderate addicts endangering their health and are speaking up?

As far as trying to get attention is concerned, I do not need the lame crutch you're suggesting to get it. I earn it.



More faulty logic. I really don't give the north end of a southbound rat what a person does to their bodies as long as it doesn't affect mine. If someone wants to "pour alcolhol or caffeine l;aden coffee into their systems," I couldn't care less since it doesn't affect me. Polluting the previously cigarette smoke free air I breathe does.



You must be so proud!


I really fail to see how you expect to present a convincing argument using faulty information and logic, poor grammar, unbelievably poor spelling, and insults. Rather, you have demonstrated your true intelligence level.


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Jeannie

Jeanie..

My "poor spelling" is actually poor typing...

I am not "proud" that my son smokes..but..it's his choice...it's his choice to drive a yellow car..I'm not particularly proud of that either...

Let's see...how many people were killed by drunk drivers last year?..it would seem that their drinking does affect others...

For every study showing that second hand smoke is harmful, I'm betting another one can be produced to show it is not...just like feeding hughe ammounts of this or that to a lab rat can cause it to suddenly go into a fit of break dancing....

I am not "pro-smoking"..a careful read of what I have said makes that obvious to anyone but one of the smoking Gestapoof which you appear to be a member...
You're 56...well...I've got a few years on you..I smoked for almost 35 years..been smoke free for about 3 and a half...

Like I said, I'm glad I quit...but do I have the right to force my will on others?...no...I do not.

And happily, young lady...neither do you.

Until the self righteous out there make smoking illegal, people should be allowed to do it.

I didn't say all people who claimed to be "sensitive" to cigarette smoke were fakers...but...if the shoe fits, Jeanie...

My point is...people should be allowed to choose..If you don't want to go someplace where people are smoking...don't go.

I sthat hard to understand?
s my spelling so bad that my point is not clear.
Maybe some rememedial reading...

I'll take spelling lessons and you take a course in comprehension..

then maybe we'll understand each other a little better..

Do your parents smoke?
If they did, would you not go to their house for Christmas?

hmmmmm....

bob Young



[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 07-24-2005).]

Bob, it's time to bring this to a close. You claim I have a lack of comprehension. I claim the same for you. Ad infinitum. Obviously, this is going to go nowhere and I have better things to do.


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Jeannie

Agreed.

Be Careful out there in AZ..
It's gonna be 101 in Chicago today..
That's a trifle compared to what you folks have been going thru out there....but...I know...it's a DRY heat.

Keep cool and be well

Bob Young

There has been a lot of non-smoking legislation in these parts lately. Lots of controversy. Lots of griping, gnashing of teeth, and wringing of hands. "I'm getting cancer." "I'm being forced out of business!"

For my own very selfish reasons, I am glad to be able to go to more places and enjoy a smoke-free environment. But on another level, I despair that we are going too far. I think smoking bans are quite appropriate in stores, theaters, ballparks, concert venues, etc. But bars and restaurants...I dunno. There are many to choose from, and if you don't like one, go to another, for whatever reason.

I am one who agrees with the findings that secondhand smoke is dangerous. The "studies" notwithstanding, it just seems obvious that it could harm. But...it is irrelevant, anyway. If I avoid it, it is no problem. If there is a band I want to hear down at the local smoggy pub, I have a choice: go or stay home. Pretty simple, really. I do not think I have a RIGHT to be there on MY terms. But I do have a right to choose where I go. That suits me.

Bob, I'm with you on most of this one, but I submit that your sense of smell is probably suspect. Having been a smoker, and living with a smoker, YOU do not smell the smoke on your Twin. But I would. Not that it matters a whit, it's a smokin' amp anyways.



[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 07-25-2005).]

EWWWWWWWWW!!! Hot topic. I generally avoid stuff like this… just couldn’t help myself today.
Yes, non-smokers tolerate smoke when they have to, and even avoid venues to avoid smoke, but that doesn’t make it right.
My boyfriend has been a bartender for 13 yrs. I am an ex-smoker (1.5 yrs) – I can see the issue from both sides. Let’s face it; this is really about people not wanting to be told what to do. I find it fascinating to listen to an intelligent smoker try to rationalize why a No Smoking ban is an infringement on their rights. How bold to believe that the rights of the smoker would take precedence over a non-smoker! When I finish up a tough work week & stop at the corner bar and kick back a shot of tequila I don’t open up the mouth of the guy sitting next to me & force a shot down his throat - Sure, he’s free to join me if he so chooses – That’s the difference with smoking – when that smoker lights up he/she takes away MY right of choice.
Allergies & illness relating to smoking & 2nd hand smoke are not new – people are finally fed up enough to do something about it.
There is no rational argument – it’s another personal issue where both sides will never see eye to eye.
Fortunately for me, its no longer an issue, we are now smoke-free in Rhode Island – and the smoker’s have adjusted. They still go out to the bars & restaurants to have a drink, socialize, and listen to good music. Smokers choose to smoke – feel free – smoke in your house, smoke in your car, smoke wherever you choose, just don’t force me do it with you. I chose to quit!
Now, let’s hear some good music!
Joanne


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• The Best is Yet to Be - Joanne Lurgio -singer/songwriter
  www.joannelurgio.com

I just have to say that I am a bit worried about the state impeding on business. But if the town has a referendum and votes out smoking in a public place, than that is the peoples rights. That is how smoking was taken out in my town.

I have heard of vents that vent away smoke from the non-smoking sections that are in use. I wonder if something like that could be made for the band stage.

That would make everyone happy if the business could spend the money on it.

Matt

This thread makes me want to light up!
Even though I quit over 7 years ago...

I guess I'll have a beer instead, and maybe some deep fried foods...
Yum!

OK, for the record I smoked for over 25 years while I was playing in a number of bands at many venues(they were all smoking back then). After my Father-in-law hacked up part of his lung at breakfest with us one day after a lifetime(a short 65 years)of 2-3 packs a day, I thought maybe I should reconsider my smoking habit. He was so anti-anti-smoking laws that he refused to fly the early airlines that banned smoking and he ranted all the time about his right to smoke. He smoked really until the end. We all love and miss him now, my take is "self suicide". With that said, my wife and her sister do not smoke but have asthma. They were living in the same house with Mom & Dad smokers and had no other place to go. Maybe not related. I quit when my wife was pregenant with our first child who is now 12 years old and sings with me when I play out. I still play out bars venues that allow smoking but with the new law here banning it in most places it is now easier to play non-smoking venues. My daughter will never play smoking venues with me till she's 18 and she decides if she's willing to take the risk. My advice to her would be no.
JMHO

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Steve West
Steve's Website

Hi, Steve,

I can relate to your story. My own parents smoked a lot, and I have often wondered if that contributed to, or actually caused my asthma.

Luckily, here in California, there are a lot of non- smkoking places to go. They even banned it at my local park!

Emily
emilysanders.net

http://cdbaby.com/cd/emilysanders

[This message has been edited by Emily Sanders (edited 07-25-2005).]

I think the time will come when you will not be allowed to smoke in your own home if you have children living there.It will come under child abuse laws.There are parents that smoke but will not do so around their children while others couldn't care less.

It seem I heard or read some where that there are loby groups now trying to get laws passed to take children from parents that persist in smoking around their children,calling it a form of child abuse.

My,my,my, We've opened up quite a can of worms,havent we? my take is that SOMETHING is gonna kill all of us,and you can't live in a plastic bubble! My fear is that once the do-gooders are done with smokers they're coming after fast food next and then god knows what else! {Hey, car crashes kill people all the time, lets ban cars! People drown every day , lets ban water! WHERE THE HELL DOES IT END?

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bc

Let's see. If a person who cares about himself, wishes not to be bothered by secondhand smoke in public places, and acts accordingly, that person is a "do-gooder."

If another person cares about himself, wants to smoke in public places and doesn't really give a rat's ass about anyone else, what word would you use to describe that?

A few come to my mind.

That quote was taken out of context! Did you read the entire statement? {Christ, I sound like a press -agent!] "Life will kill ya!" ---Warren Zevon.

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bc

P.S I Know you are but what am I ????

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bc

P.P.S A few names come to MY mind pertaining to the "do-gooders" One is slang for a part of a womans' anatomy!!!

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bc

Where does it end? It ends when smokers care enough to band together and stop cities from passing smoking bans. But I don't see that happening much. What I see is a lot of smokers complaining about how things oughta be, while smoking on the sidewalk.

I'm throwing a BIG show in a few weeks. Quite a few people have written to me expressing concern about smoking at the venue. Bottom line: if the venue is smoking, they won't come.

So I contacted the bar, and they were happy to make the show nonsmoking. They said a few regulars would be grumpy but they'd get over it.

Bottom line: if my audience wants it, and the venue is okay with it, I'll give it to them. Making sure my fans are comfortable is more important to me than a handful of smokers who'll be inconvenienced for an evening.

If that makes me a do-gooder, then I'm proud to be a do-gooder. This is one way in which smoking DIRECTLY affects my livelihood as a musician, and if that bothers anyone, they're welcome to complain -- outside, on the sidewalk, with their cigarette.

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Scott Andrew
Lo-fi acoustic pop superhero!
http://www.scottandrew.com/music

Scott, You are absolutley correct in your first point about smokers stopping bitching, and doing something about it. Sure seems to be working for the "do-gooders".{Did I mention that I'm a NON-SMOKER!} I also choose to perform sober in front of a bunch of drunks,{but thats another story!] Anyway, the opposite can also be true: If 80%-90% of my audience are smokers{they are!} and they are put upon, that affects MY livelyhood, and I get really pissed off when things affect my livelyhood! I have accepted that second hand smoke is an occupational hazzard,just as a cab driver or store clerk a realizes that one day some jack-ass may come in and blow his/her brains out! Once again you can't live in a bubble. "Your'e gonna die of boredom safety Joe!" ---John Prine

Ya can't play the blues if the smoke isn't thick enough to make the audience hazy.

Amen brother!!

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bc

And you know what, Scott? Although my own feelings pretty much mirror Bob's in this whole topic, I personally have no problem whatsoever with your doing that.

You know why? Because you are not the government legislating morality and behavior. You are a private individual setting up a (semi-)private function, and, yes, you should be able to do so on whatever terms you like.

More than that, if any individual bar, club, store, or other establishment wants to ban smoking in their establishment, I firmly believe they have every right to do so. It's their place, let them run it how they see fit.

And if the club down the street wants to allow smoking (or, better yet, wants to require smoking!), then they should have every right to do that.

To me, those sorts of actions are worlds away from government decrees.

Here's an interesting link for y'all to check out. If you read the "Issues and Positions," you may find yourself nodding in agreement more than you expected you would. (Then again, maybe not....)

http://www.lp.org/

--- Ed


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http://www.edperrone.com/music/

Ed: I don't think it's as simple as "government decree." No non-smoking law gets passed without a vote. If a smoking ban gets passed, it usually does with the blessing of the local business community. So I gotta disagree that this is oppression.

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Scott Andrew
Lo-fi acoustic pop superhero!
http://www.scottandrew.com/music

Ed, you just scored the slam-dunk! You are a wise man indeed. Now lets put this puppy to rest,this subject has been divisive to say the least,{helluva an entertaining debate though!}

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bc

OR NOT!

Smoking ban in FL cost 10,000+ jobs and 9 billion a yr

But I agree if you want your place non-smoking fine but don't let the government get involved.

Sometimes governments have to pass laws to protect the majority from the minority or vice versa.Just imagine if we had no speed limits on our roads.Laws are needed and necessary to protect the innocent from those that have no regard for others,only themselves.

OVER!? NOTHINGS OVER TILL WE SAY IT'S OVER, WAS IT OVER WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR?? HELL NO!!! ----John Belushi. Just when I thought I was through with this subject y'all reel me back in! I HAVE to respond to Scotts last post. Scott the government imposes laws on us against our will all the time, smoking,drinking,drugging,seatbelt,helmet laws ect ect. A good example: In the 80's Ohio voters were given a choice to raise the drinking age to 21 or keep it at 19. Voters overwhelmingly elected to keep it 19, but the federal government stepped in and withheld highway funds until it was raised to 21! So much for the will of the people! More recently the city of Cincinnati voted DOWN an anti-smoking ordinance, but the "do gooders"have vowed to go over our heads to state legislature, and if they fail there,have vowed to forward their agenda by any means necessary. Once again,so much for the will of the people.

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bc

Yeah, well, I was 18 in Akron OH when they passed that law, so it ain't news to me

I had a much longer post, but I deleted it. These threads pop up here on JPF all the time, and it doesn't ever change anything. If some people want to go on believing they're weak and powerless in the face of the almighty Feds, fine. Have fun.

[This message has been edited by scottandrew (edited 09-05-2005).]

Actually Scott, I have been entertaining the thought of starting a militia, perhaps along with my fellow right-wing,gun-toting,meat-eating,ass-whooping,sober as a nun,but crazy-as-a-loon buddy Ted Nugent. We need to take back this country from the wussificating "do-gooders". FIGHT THE POWER!!!

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bc

Poor Jeffe just asked a simple question,and opened up this pandora's box! Thanx Jeffe!! LOL