JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum Legal Question Regarding Re-Writing Someone Elses Song

Let’s say I take the song “Turn the Page” written by Bob Seger. I use his melody/music and I totally change the words and change the original theme to fit a country music singer (instead of a rocker). I want to do a demo to send to publishers to hopefully get someone to record it. Can you help me with the following questions. I’m sure Weird Al Yankovich and Cletis T Judd would know the answers, but I thought you guys and gals might get back to me quicker.

Thanks.

Steve

Question 1: At what point would I need to contact the original song’s publisher to get permission to use it? Before I change the words? Before the demo? Before sending to publisher? Definitely before recording.

Question 2: What kind of contract would be involved and how complicated would it be? Complicated enough to have to hire a lawyer? Years of back and forth negotiation?

Question 3: If the new song were to be recorded, would the song’s original publisher be eligible for (or require) 100% of the publishing, thereby making it unnecessary or a waste of time to pitch to a publisher?

Question 4: How would you start this whole process? Mail, phone?

Question 5: What would be pitfalls to avoid?

Steve,

I'll give you my layman's opinions to your questions, but remember, these are opinions for discussion purposes only and these opinions should not be relied upon. Always consult a professional...

You didn't say whether what you are wanting to create is a parady of the original song or not. If it is a parady, you *MAY* technically not need the publisher's permission to create and record the parady. But, that is a complicated thing to decide if it is or isn't a parady, and I would consult a lawyer about that. Wierd Al always asks permission from the song's publisher, even though technically he may not have to.

Assuming what you are doing is NOT a parady, then here would be my opinions:

Question #1: From your description, you are creating a derivative work of the original, which is not subject to compulsary licensing for recording. Therefore, before you do a demo (demos to me are a wierd thing legally, but I will include them in this) or do anything public with the new song, you should have permission to create the derivative (sometimes called "permission to arrange"). And actually, you should have permission before you even change or re-arrange the words or melody. But practically I don't think it would be an issue unless it was performed in public or recorded. I think you should ask the publisher this question to see how they feel about it.

Question #2: Probably would take a simple contact with the publisher (phone call/e-mail). But, that just depends on the publisher. If you want to do a Beatles song, from what I have read, good luck.

Question #3: In all likelihood they would require 100% of publishing, unless you were a big player and/or had a bargaining chip. Or, if it was a true parady, you might have some negotiating room. But, a lot of rappers etc. who sample other's music in their recordings have to give up all the publishing for that song (the new song the rapper created) to the original music's owner. This is not to discourage you, the only way you are gonna find out in your particular case is to ask the publisher. Plus, creating derivative works is a complicated thing legally, so if you want to try to retain some ownership/publishing, I would advise you get an attorney's advice and help with negotiating.

Question #4: Call or e-mail the publisher.

Question #5: I think you should always follow your dreams, so you should try to do this. And ask more people's advise. But practically, I think most people who re-arrange a song do so for thier or a client's own recording, and the hope is to make money from the recording, not necessarly the publishing.

[This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 06-15-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 06-15-2005).]

Liszt Laughing,

Thanks for taking time to thoroughly answer my questions.

I don't guess I could really call the re-arrangement a parody. It has the same basic theme as the original song, a musician on the road in a band, but it is done with a country slant. The lyrics are completely different except for a half'a line (4 words) in the chorus that are not in the original song title.

Sounds like I need to contact the publisher and see if they would be willing to talk. I guess I would send a copy of my lyrics and see where it goes. Bob Seger may be a big enough name to be selective when dealing with this kind of thing. The potential for an extra few hundred $$ (if that) for a bluegrass song, may not be worth allowing someone to monkey with his song. I imagine a lesser name artist/writer might just look at it as a way to bring in some easy $$ without doing anything.

Another question I just thought of: If an agreement was worked out, would Bob Seger be considered a co-writer? I remember Weird Al joking on tv about Michael Jackson being his co-writer and how people might think he and MJ sat around jamming.

Thanks again, LL, for your help.

Steve

Just to add my 2 cents. I'm not a lawyer (standard disclaimer) but I do record parodies myself and have researched parody law quite a bit.

The short version is parodies are protected as free speach, and are considered Fair Use. As such you are free to do what you want. However, the legal definition of what exactly is a parody and what is protected has never been clearly established.

Weird Al Yankovic (note, no H, sorry, pet peeve) gets permission from the original WRITER of the song. He does this so he can negotiate a split of the publishing on the new song. And generally because he's a nice guy and doesn't want to step on anyone's toes.

What you're doing could legally be argued as a parody, but it sounds more likely to be a derivitive work, which is not something I have a lot of knowledge about.

In your case I would strongly suggest you contact the writer and publisher (if they're not the same person) and explain what you want to do.

Legally you can record the song and shop it to record lables without anyone's permission. But if a label picks it up they'll have to go through all the proper legal channels.

And note that anyone can sue you at any time for anything. If you look at someone the wrong way they can sue you for emotional stress. So it's best to get permission from all the parties involved whenever you're doing something like this.

->Later.....Spice

Hey Devo,

Good points. One thing (and maybe I can learn something here) on what you said below:

Legally you can record the song and shop it to record lables without anyone's permission

Are we sure that *technically, legally* you can record and shop a song without permission? What would be the legal reason copyright law can be suspended in the case of making a demo?

Steve, I think the creator of the derivative is considered the author/writer of that particular arrangement. But then, you have to have permission to have created the derivative, so the publisher can basically ask of you (putting original writers in as co-writers) what they want.



[This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 06-15-2005).]

Why don't you just change the melody a little bit and avoid all this nonsense?

What you are doing is not a parody, so you would be on thin ice trying to release a recording of this. You need to get permission, and I doubt very much that permission will be forthcoming.

See a lawyer. See a lawyer. See a lawyer.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by devospice:
want.
What you're doing could legally be argued as a parody, but it sounds more likely to be a derivitive work,

Yes, I think derivitive is a better description than parody.

And note that anyone can sue you at any time for anything. If you look at someone the wrong way they can sue you for emotional stress. So it's best to get permission from all the parties involved whenever you're doing something like this.

10-4 to that. I did some research on the publisher, Gear Publishing, which is a subsidiary of Warner and who is managed by Minder in London. What do you think my chances are of getting a reply from these guys?

Thanks, Spice, for the advice.


Steve

Hey Truman,

I hear you, man. Changing the melody would do the trick, but I can't come up with one I like. May have to find a co-writer to help.

Thanks for the advice.

Steve

Hi All,
I assume you have already written the song and a side by side comparision makes the new song too close to the original melody.
A. You could put it aside for a time and see if you can change it enough to make it an original.
B. Do you really have anything that will make it big? That's the only time you possibily would be sued for plagerisim.
C. You could pitch the song as is and see if anyone will record it.
D. If it makes it big and you are sued you could settle it then.
E. Contacting the Copyright Owner of the song you used for your model may just reject your request without fanfare. Why try to work out something that may never materalize.

If you feel you have something worth recording, I would pitch it as is and not worry about anything unless it shows up sometime in the future. Good Luck.

P.S. That is why I don't use anyones songs to copy.

Hey that's great advice. My first experience with feeling I need to ask someone's permission when writing a song. If I can't find a way to do it legally AND ethically, it's not worth it to me.

Thanks, Ray, for thinking it through and sharing your thoughts.

Steve

In my previous post to Ray, the first part of my response is in bold along with Ray's copied post and is therefore confusing...Sorry, I'm not familiar with the system yet.

Thanks.

statesvillenc,

I see some good advice here so far...

My angle of approach on this issue is:

If at all possible avoid the "Turn the Page" melody written by Bob Seger. Too many fans of that song will not be receptive to the idea at all, and will consider any variation especially with the familiar melody a mockery, insult, slur, et cetera.

The viable solution is to come up with an entire new song.. about a band on the road or traveling musician. Remember the theme/premise/basis or idea of a song cannot be monopolized.. contrary to popular belief.. meaning that any songwriter on here is more than welcome to write a song about "love" or "yesterday".. or even a song about a "traveling disillusioned band or musician".

But any forth coming major hit [read- cash cow] is going to be scrutinized for copyright infringement. You know if someone were to try contacting any hit writers for a collaboration, they would find themselves up too many dead end roads with no connections to the hit writers whatsoever..

Yet create a valuble [cash cow] hit song that ever so slightly steps on the previous hit writers toes.. watch the previous hit writers and/or their representives/agents come running out of the woodwork saying look.. we think you owe us a little something here?!

So my final theory is try to write an entire new song.. while keeping the dividends of such works for yourself.. a song about a traveling band or musician. Also try to avoid using pre-established melodies for new interpretations.

S.L.

Hey Guys,

I wanted to follow up on this....This is in regards to the statement by another poster about demos (and not to pick on you):

Legally you can record the song and shop it to record lables without anyone's permission

I did some reading and research, and I just don't believe the above to be true. I'm open to being proven wrong, but I can't find any reason why normal copyright law in regards to the underlying musical compositions on any demo and specifically on Steve's demo (if he made one) would be suspended. And even if NMPA and the RIAA had an agreement, not every publisher has to follow it. To make that demo, in my opinion he would have to have permission from the publisher because:

A) Mechanical licensing applies...
B) He's making a derivative, which requires specific permission from the publisher (a mechanical complusary would not apply)
C) The demo manufacturer needs the permissions to be secured, otherwise they can get sued for infringement

In other words, a demo is the same as a normal release, and needs the same permissions in regards to PA licensing.

I mean, if you think about it, unless it's a demo deal for a record company, demo's shopping specific songs are usually made by the publisher or copyright owner, so they wouldn't need permissions or licensing, but anybody else would...

[This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 06-15-2005).]

>> Legally you can record the song and shop it to record lables without anyone's permission

> I did some reading and research, and I just don't believe the above to be true.

It's entirely possible that you're right. I'm not a lawyer and haven't looked into this particular area of the law, but I can tell you one experience I had which is what lead to the top statement.

I was looking to clear a sample I used in a song and was on the phone with the woman who is in charge of the Sample Clearance department at Atlantic Records. She told me that if I was shopping the song to record labels as a demo that I didn't have to clear the sample. She said I could do whatever I needed to to try to get a deal with a label. Then once the label was interested they would take care of everything legally.

It seems to me the same rules should apply for cover songs, etc., but I can't say for sure.

->Later.....Spice

Ya, I believe that...I think by custom (or perhaps there are interorganizational agreements - like say between NMPA and the RIAA or between RIAA members) that is the way the industry operates in regards to demos...but technically (especially in regards to what I have read - when NMPA makes an agreement - it's individual members do not have to follow) I don't think there is a *legal* reason for this. So, especially for an indie, I guess it would be best to ask the publisher first for permissions when creating a demo (and the SR holder too if sampling) and not just assume you can do it. Again, because I don't think there is a legal reason for what seems to be an industry custom. So you couldn't assume it's OK with everybody in YOUR particular case...

If someone knows something different, please chime in...

I've had a somewhat relative experience where one of my songs (and myself) was attacked by someone who claimed that it was copyright infringement. The song is an English adaptation of a French song with a completely different melody and arrangement. I contacted the auteur from her website and she emailed back and forth with me until it suddenly ended with her owing me a response. Apparently I'm too small a fish to feel threatened by. The song was done in an 'academic exercise' sense and I've discovered that other English translations are being done in France and/or Quebec. I haven't heard them. I stopped performing that song and even removed it from the site on which it was attacked because the 'copyright watchdog' alerted the admin and they wanted 'to err on the side of caution.' The lasting effects of being attacked and intimidated in this way aren't worth all the trouble for a little song that probably won't 'make it big' although it was getting some notice from audiences. I performed it again for the first time in months and it really is a nice tune. I told the original writer that I had no intention to infringe on her copyrights and if any monies were made that she was welcome to a fair share. I'm actually pleased and flattered that someone would find my French to English translation to be that good and to have communicated one on one with the writer/singer who I've admired for years and who holds a very 'high level status' in French speaking society. What I didn't deserve is to be attacked out of the blue like that in front of others. Although other reviewers quickly rallied to my defense my 'creative flow' was stifled due to the bad feeling surrounding that song and extended onto my music and artistic freedom as a whole. In twenty years in the arts I had never experienced such a negative response to my work and hope not to re-experience it again.

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PEACE!

SL,

If I were to move forward using this very recognizable melody, and if the song through some luck were to enjoy some success, it would kinda like buying life insurance. When you finally hit the jackpot, you're screwed. And since I'm not much of a gambler, and since I don't want any legal problems, I guess I should consider your advice and continue re-writing. Also, I surely wouldn't want to make a mockery of such a great song (although I think my lyric is better, hehehe!)

If I contact the publisher and he/she shoots me down, which would probably be the case with such a successful song, I would have no choice but to come up with another melody. And even then, my correspondance with publisher and even this internet thread could be used against me if I were unable to adequately "sanitize" the song.

I'll have to let the foam on this one settle for a few weeks before I start on a new melody, since the Turn the Page melody seems so right. I can't hear any other melody right now.

Thanks, SL

Steve

Hello again Liszt Laughing,

Thanks for the follow-up.

I use one of the established, well-respected demo studios in Nashville. Although they've never ask me for any type of guarantee that the song they are demoing is mine, I should expect that if I sent them a song that clearly uses someone elses melody, they would at least want some documentation that would protect them from any liability.

Can you imagine how many lawyers Warner Music has on retainer just waiting for someone to come close to infringeing upon their property? No song is worth taking that chance.

Thanks again.

Steve

Hello Heradia,

Sorry to hear about that unpleasant experience. I guess that goes to show the power of the internet--both positive and negative. When you post something, you open yourself to the world. And although I've found most people to be sincere (glass half full), there's always some nut out there with either a hidden agenda, a self esteem problem, or a sick sense of humor who is determined to try to ruin somebody's day.

Good luck with your songwriting, and thanks for telling your story.

Steve

Hey Spice,

Thanks for getting back in on this one. Interesting.

Steve

It is my understanding that you can use a melody that is very old ie. Bach, Beethoven, etc. Somewhere in the public domain category or age old traditional song. Can't you take a melody that you like and 'make it better?' Talking to my lawyer about copyright he says it's akin 'to moving into someone's house.' On the other side there has to be creative freedom otherwise as artistes we would be stifled. So it's a balancing act of learning from others 'the masters' ,'the heros' and feeling free to create our own masterpieces. As long as you contact the original writer/composer outlining your disclaimer that you have no intention to profit on his/her original work or if you do you are willing to share the proceeds you should be able to feel free to create and adapt new material from your favorite songs. How many songs are really made from scratch? A teacher would be completely stifled from teaching anything if we couldn't use other people's material.

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PEACE!

Which leads to the question "Which is the worse of sins?" Recording a song that's influenced by someone else's words or by someone else's melody? It's perfectly OK to say that a soul singer sounds like Stevie or Sly so where's the line in the balance?

[This message has been edited by Heradia (edited 06-17-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Heradia (edited 06-18-2005).]

Quick update.

I emailed Minder Publishing, the lowest common denominator of publishers for Bob Seger's catalog. I got a response back with a few hours. The rep gave me the name and fax number for a gentleman at Gear Publishing in Birmingham, Michigan who would be able to answer my questions on the process for and possibility of using the "Turn the Page" melody. Gear is one step up the publishing food chain toward the mother ship Warner Music.

Heradia, it's interesting you talk about the influence of other musicians in your last post. In my letter to the publisher, I mentioned that my music writing has been influence by Mr. Seger. I pretty much just laid it on the line that although my traditional country/bluegrass derivative would probably not be a huge money maker by rock standards, I believed that it could be a successful song in it's own genre. I included a draft of the lyric I am working on. So, if I get sued, it will be for being stupid, and NOT for being dishonest with them.

Later

Steve

It sounds to me that you would need permission to be on the safe side. I have learned the hard way that the safe side is always the sunny side!

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Band wanted for FREE MUSIC VIDEO Click Here!

I am not in to doing anyones songs but mine. And I don't have much legal knowledge. But from what I have read around on the net and through the media, what qualifies as a parody is frightningly unclear.

UPDATE:

"...your request is denied."


That's the reply from Gear Publishing.

"We are in receipt of your letter of June 17, 2005 requesting permission to create a derivative work of Bob Seger's 'Turn the Page'. While we apreciate your interest in Bob Seger, please be advised that we are unable to grant you permission to use or alter this copyright. Therefore, your request is denied."

So, I guess either I scrap it or find another melody.

BTW--Sharpe Lurker, your advice was the closest to being on target.

Thanks to all.

Steve

I bet if you were a rapper or a major label or something they would let you...if they knew they were going to make money off of it I bet they would let you...

Or, well, maybe not, some people's catalogs are just closed period...

...but then some people's catalogs are open...

If it make you feel any better, another JPF member a few months ago asked the same thing of a publisher for a different song, and they said yes...

Thanks for posting back...



[This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 07-02-2005).]

You know, from things I have read recently even after this thread was started, it's not a definate given a publisher will demand 100% of the publishing of a new song if a sample or derivative is used in the new song of the publisher's old song. This can definately be negotiated and there is precedent for lesser amounts. It just depends on the publisher, the negotiator (a lawyer if you have the money and it's that kind of thing for you would definately be in order), and, I still think, alot on whether you have anything to bring to the table for the publisher. So, as an indie asking the publisher for something, I think it makes it easier for publisher to say no or demand 100%. But, it all depends on the publisher, as they all can be different, so it never hurts to ask...



[This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 07-02-2005).]