JPF Home Page Forums Musician Gear and Techniques General Technical Forum Apple buys Emagic

This has been a very hot discussion topic on the recording-oriented boards, but may affect some people here, too. Yep, it's true, Logic Audio will become an Apple product.

Apple plans on discontinuing the sale of Windows versions of Logic in September of this year. They will probably still support the products for a while - but no new Windows versions of Logic. Maybe there'll eventually be an "iMusician" (along with iMovie and iTunes) program as part of the standard Mac OS. Here's the link:

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/jul/01emagic.html



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Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

Yeah, I've been reading about that myself. I think I have an acquaintance who's a Logic user on the Mac; it's been a while since I talked to him about it.
In my world, the Windows Darkside clouds all


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Later,

Pat

Larry,

Ah.. the old MAC/Windows battle... here's one persons opinion. (I have no delusions or desires of converting anyone, I just thought I would state my first hand experience.)

I was just talking about this to a MAC user last night who has Logic Audio as a endorsement deal. I happen to own 8 mac computers myself, though at this point I don't use any of them because the replacement cost for MACS when they are outdated was just too high. I started back with an Old MAC SE with the little black and white screen in the cube all in one box. That computer with it's 20 meg hard drive, a whopping (and upgraded for 400 dollars) 1 meg of ram and 30 mghz processor (I think) processor and an 8 inch black and white screen was the rolls royce of it's time, but it also cost as much as one. I paid 3600 dollars for it in 1987.

As Windows machines caught up, I stuck with MACS. Machine after machine which always cost me 2 times a comparable Windows machine, but I didn't care, I was a Mac user darn it. For the most part, Macs were backwards compatible up until about version 7 into 8 of their software. Then it stopped. All my gear, software, files etc.. became quickly and totally obsolete in a few months. When my midi interface stopped working, I wasn't able to buy a new one that worked with my old machines and files and gear. I bought a cheap (for the time) AST Windows machine for 800 dollars that had a printer, 17inch monitor, 150 meghz processor and a 1 gig hard drive which was enormous at the time and stopped using my desktop macs, but kept using my mac laptop on the road. I used that AST machine up until 2 years ago when I bought this 750mgz Windows laptop to handle home and road use with a 20 GIG hard drive, 15 inch screen, DVD player, 128 meg of ram and lots more, including TONS of included software (something macs have NEVER been good about.)

Now, this cpu is starting to wear down and I am looking to replace it. For about 2400 bucks (about 1/3 of what I paid for that first mac in today's dollars) I can get a 2ghz laptop machine, with a 40 gig hard drive, 16.1 inch screen (same viewing size as a 17 inch regular monitor) dvd and CDR, 512 meg of ram and tons of software already set up for audio and video production from the laptop. And I can flawless tranfers 100% of my files to the new one without missing a beat.

So what is my point? Though I was among the
MAC elitists for a long time, the reality is that for real people, the cost, benefits, software selection, upgrade ability of Windows machines make much more sense. And the reality is that with only a tiny learning curve to get used to a different system, I can no longer even remember why I thought the Mac user system was so much better? (Sure, I actually understand the benefits of an integrated operating system versus one that runs on top of everything, but Windows is pretty darn streamlined at this point.)

I've actually looked at various MAC computers while I consider updating this laptop (which has probably had 12 years of use crammed into 2 years.. 12-15 hours a day year round... and actually still works fine), mostly out of nostalgia, but what I still find is a much higher price tag, less software (and more costly software to boot), more costly add ons(though many are cross platform now). Then I hear that MAC has gone back to their Monopolistic, smarmy ways (yes, they were the monopoly before they got cocky and didn't improve their product because they owned the market and Windows came in and stole all their cookies...) that took them from the top of the food chain to a company that has been surviving on the crumbs left over from Microsoft ever since. (By the way, this is something that Jobs openly admits as recently as an article I read in Fast Company last week.)

Mac's used to be the computer company for the people. Now it's mostly the computer for the rich people or the elitists. Ack! For them to buy a company with a rabid user base and then kill it for 95% of computer owners to incorporate into their tiny elitist monopoly looks like they are going right back into their old ways. If it is in fact true that they will stop supporting their windows customers, it's a bad sign and the last thing I would do if I were a faithful Logic Audio user is to consider switching to a mac in light of this. Very sad. (and desperate really...)

So, that's my non-music industry related Rant. Ironically, I can still boot up and use my oldest Windows machine with most of today's software (albeit slowly.) My 8 macs all stacked up in the basement.. totally and completely useless. I'd really like to be part of the MAC world.. it DOES seem to cater to my world.. music, art, writing.. creativity... but I think they forget that most artists are poor. Reality my friends.

I am sure the old MAC gods I used to worship are not happy with me... but that's just my opinion.. I could be right.

Brian

I won't get into the religious aspects of which computer one uses (I'm typing this on a PC and my Mac is in the studio).

I think it's a shame that the 35% of Logic users who use PCs are just going to be dropped eventually. Already, both Steinberg (Cubase SX) and Cakewalk (Sonar) are offering special prices specifically for existing PC Logic Audio users.

http://www.steinberg.net/the_magic_of_sx/index.phtml?sid=07773161

http://www.cakewalk.com/Press/07-04-02-Logic_to_SONAR.asp

Longer term, my guess is that Apple is planning on including a little iMusic (MicroLogic a/v?) program with the basic Mac setup (or for a very cheap add-on price), so a $1000 iMac with the addition of a little USB audio/midi device would be ready to go for very decent-sounding 24-bit audio and midi. Of course, Logic will most likely run better than any other midi/audio app on OS X - which has integrated midi and the next version (10.2) will have the full "core audio" functions built in, also.

...but XP is a fine operating system, too. I've used all the M/S products since MS-DOS 2.11. Hated most of 'em...but Win2K started shaping up pretty nicely. (I've used the Mac OS since System 7, too).

Interesting times lie ahead...

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Larry
www.audibleresponse.com


[This message has been edited by Lwilliam (edited 07-03-2002).]

This just in...(name removed on purpose).

"...there will be an offer for free migration (win > mac) announced soon.
please check out our news during the next days...

>I hope Apple/Emagic changes their mind on dropping the PC products.

no – unfortunately not our decision. the above is all we can do.

the most reasonable solution imo is to stay on windows for some further
months with version 5.2. this will be an up-to-date-solution until 2003 –
even after september there will be service releases on windows! *and* use
the migration program to logic mac and get yourself a fast mac as your
next computer later this year (maybe a machine which isn´t announced yet).

however, i am honestly sorry for every single logic windows user –

best regards,

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX (sender's position removed)
emagic"




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Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

Interesting email Larry. Thanks for posting.

It's clear mac is on a tirade to get people to switch to their platform. I think their current advertising of having lame ass Windows techs talk about how they use Macs at home is the worst advertising campaign mac has ever run.... it's WAY beneath a company that's supposed to have a better product isn't it?

I think this approach of forcing people to switch via tech blackmail is also ill suited for Mac. If you have to twist someone's arm to your format by buying a program that they use and love and shutting it off for their chosen format just to coerce them to move to your platform seems sleazy. And that is not a word I would have EVER thought to use towards Mac/Apple. It's very sad to me.

I always thought of Apple as an enlightened company. Using tactics that would make even microsoft blush with embarassment is a bad move on their part in my opinion. Becoming more segrationalist on their part also seems like a bad move. I am sure that all of Logic Audios competitors are looking forward to serving that forgotten 35% eh?

Brian

Well, Brian,
maybe Jobs is fighting fire with fire. Idealism is nice, but Jobs can't practice it if he doesn't have a company anymore. Mr. I own 95% of the world Gates cornered the market through software. Maybe that's Job's new plan as well.

One of the reasons for buying a PC instead of the Mac was that developers were not creating software compatible for the Mac. (As you touched on already.) People didn't have much choice, whether they liked it or not they had to buy a PC because of the software. So fewer people bought Macs. It's all about volume. Just as it worked for PCs, if more people need to buy Macs, the price will go down.

Jobs should have gotten into the software department a long time ago, when he tried licensing with Power Computing and the other companies. I was disappointed myself when he bought it back. Perhaps when Apple is comfortable again and acquires more software companies, the MacOS may once again be licensed and the competition will help the Mac be more affordable. It will all even out.

Please remember too that the main reason PCs are easier to use now is because of Apple. Gates imitated Apple's user friendly qualities. Apple has always been and continues to be the innovator. Without the Apple gadfly, would Microsoft really bother to improve?

Do you like Firewire tecnology? Guess where that came from. Quicktime? Guess where that came from?

I have had to use PC's at work, and I am always happy to come home to my Mac. ALWAYS. They really are easier to use and faster to get into. For brain stemmers like me that it important. Even my brother in law who put down Macs all the time had to admit it was easier to use after he was forced to use them at a new job. Installation of software is still easier for Mac.

I didn't buy the Mac because I was an elitist. I bought it because I like how it works. I didn't buy the one hot off the assembly line, I waited until the price was lowered. The very first Macs I bought were used so I got a great deal.

If all the software we bought were cross platform, it would be interesting to see which computer people would buy?

Anyway, sorry about the little guys caught in the middle. Hey another thing. Why put all the blame on Apple. How come nobody is yelling at the company that sold out?

JeanB

By the way, the newer G3 and G4 towers can be upgraded just like PCs can. You don't have to have a tech do it like in the old days. You don't have to have all the special screwdrivers anymore either. It's pretty cool.




[This message has been edited by JeanB (edited 07-05-2002).]

Here are some other thoughts on the subject. http://www.macmusic.org/agora/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=11&t=2242&s=

Personally, I don't use alot of their products, so it don't meen a whole lot to me.

Jean,

Actually, you are making my points.

Why buy a software company that IS multi platform, and then shut off the support of the other platform? Apple is doing that.

I agree that when they liscensed to Power Computing and others, the Mac platform started to grow and that is when I was still buying (in fact, I both 4 top of the line Mac computers and a laptop in that era) their products and felt like my investments were going to be protected. But shortly after that, they shut it all off and went back to being elitist.

I am no fan of Microsoft, but the thing that they DID do for computers is bring the costs/prices WAY WAY WAY down. It also allowed for leaps and bounds improvements because comapanies could invest in one primary platform. So technology dramatically advanced and costs dramatically descreased. The 200 dollar Sony playstation II we have is a dramatically more powereful computer than my $3600 MAC SE was.

I also agree that MAC's interface is what forwarded windows to become more user friendly. But remember, Mac got their interface from Xerox. They started the whole icon based operating system ideas but had no clue what they had created and let it go.

Also remember that as evil as most mac people think microsoft it, microsoft actually bailed out Mac with a big financial investment to keep them going when they were tetering on extinction. There are many reasons for this (protection from anti trust monopoly lawsuits among them), but the reality is that having a small crafty competitor DOES keep microsoft on their toes and improving. An unchallenged monopoly is always at greater risk of getting fat and happy and then crushed by an upstart from nowhere than a duopoly that keeps them inching forward all the time.

You can say Apple isn't trying to be elitist, but with higher prices and a "play my way or I will take my football home" mentality, their actions sure indicate otherwise.

Our whole family were Mac fantatics for a long time. We spent way more money. Had far less software options and are sitting on machines that were obsolete well before their time. If at least software companies were motivated to make cross platform version of their software, there would be some attractive reason to go back. But Emagic, one of the most successful cross platform audio programs gets bought and cut off, it means that you'll have to be happy being cloistered in the little mac happy cult family again, or you can make your life simpler and go with mainstream. If starving artists can't afford a mac, but Mac's are made supposedly to support artists as a big contingent, who is being served? The elite artists?

Converting someone from mac or windows either way is not a realistic goal. It's like converting people from their religion. (I think I have had more arguments pro-mac or pro-windows than I have had pro-religion in my life.) So why doesn't mac simply focus on advertising what they actually DO that is better? If they ARE better, people will seek them out in droves. Otherwise, it's just a smokescreen. Advertising that someone else sucks, and therefore you should do business with our company instead is the worst ad strategy ever. It's what companies do that don't have the goods to back it up.

Brian

Whew! Say, is it hot in here or is it just me? Anybody want to join me for a Coke - er - Pepsi?
I won't get into any mac vs. windows flame battle because there are quite obviously good things to be said about both platforms. It's just too bad about all the Logic for Windows users, who now get one last upgrade and - that's it, folks! If you want to continue to enjoy driving your new car, you'll have to get the steam engine.


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Later,

Pat

Patrick and everyone else,

I sure hope no one sees this as a flame. It isn't even remotely intended to be that from my end. In fact, it's a nice change from the other more serious back and forths we've had on other message boards. And if I were ever going to flame anyone, Jean would certainly be near the bottom of that list! = )

I do wish Mac's were as popular as Windows because I think there would be more innovation. The sad thing is that there's even a lack of Window's competitors these days as well. HP and Compaq joining forces and most of the big PC manufacturers are long gone (packard bell, ast, acer, ibm, tandy... what happened to all the competitors?)...

Now you have Dell, Gateway, HP/Compaq, Apple and Sony. I am currently using a Sony laptop because to me, they've been the most innovative in regards to multi-media in the Windows platform. They embraced Firewire first in that platform, they've led the way with Digital Cameras and Digital Video products and they are all very integrated into their computer platforms. Their computers come with digital video and audio editing software included as well.

In fact.. we should get them as a sponsor, because we use their products for basically everything the more I think of it. = )

Brian

Naw, it may look like I was saying so, but there's no flaming going on here.
I like the Windows platform, primarily because I'm used to it, it's more of a tinkerer's system, and I can build a system for far less money than I can buy a Mac for. Even so, I'm still agonizing over buying a box to use as a DAW in my garage studio because I just don't feel like I'm savvy enough to be sure I'm buying the right processor, motherboard, videocard, RAM, and peripherals to run my software and not crash. I guess that's one advantage of Mac's - it's a known commodity, isn't it?


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Later,

Pat

A few thoughts...

One of the reasons I was considering using Logic (in addition to Protools, Reason and others) was because of the cross-platform capabilities. It wouldn't have mattered which platform the work was done by collaborators, because I could easily import it into my "Logic/Mac". That reason is no longer there although there are other reasons to buy the program.

Another idea that's floating around the Mac forums is that Apple's getting a bit impatient with Motorola/IBM in that they haven't been able to keep up with the Intel/AMD chips in Mhz. Regardless of MegaFLOPS, MIPs, or architecture (including dual CPU), Mhz is what SELLS - and a P4 with the same Mhz as a G4 will run more plugins pretty much across the board. This is partly because most plugins have yet to be fully optimized for Altivec, but that's another issue...

Since OS X was derived from the NextOS, and NextStep machines (Steve Job's previous company) ran on the 486 chip, it seems possible that a future generation of OS X may be run on the Intel/AMD chips. So, actually, a significant portion of OS X is really a "port" from the Intel world over to the Motorola chip. It could, without a complete overhaul, be "put back" onto that chip.

If that's the case, the cost of Macs could come down by running on Intel instead of the higher-priced Motorola. Personally, I don't care what the CPU is, I just want a stable music-making machine. More than anything else, Apple's BIOS is what make a Mac a Mac - not the CPU.

Finally, there are CPU upgrades available for most of the new generation of G3/G4 Macs to extend their life. The newest one from Powerlogix will be a 1Ghz upgrade for the AGP and Quicksilver G4s (including the "Cube") - that'll be on my short list. It should begin shipping this month. Macworld (July 17-) should also introduce cheaper/faster/better Macs - but we'll see.

I think the Apple/Emagic thing has put Digidesign at odds with Emagic. I noticed the friendly Emagic/Protools HD logo has recently disappeared from the Digidesign site. A short-lived post (deleted by the admin) supposedly quoting the Digidesign CEO was not a happy quote.

MOTU may also be shaking in their boots a bit. They WERE the only Mac-Only midi/audio DAW.



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Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

LOL, Brian! You have a list? Just kidding. I wasn't flaming either (I hope I wasn't). Anyway it's fun to see discussions like these. I do love my Mac, but I wish I had the other kind as well. It's like being fluent in two languages and computers, any kind, are just plain cool.

JeanB

Hey! How come I am the only woman to reply to this topic, so far? (Not that I don't like the company, guys.) Maybe it's because a lot of us use the more technical computer terms like thingies and whatchamacallits. Could that be it?

Wow! whatchamacallits is harder to spell than peripherals.

[This message has been edited by JeanB (edited 07-09-2002).]

Well, I run a Mac, but it's mainly due to the fact that I'm in tune with how it works and dig how it looks. Form and function are what drive me. I never got the PC, doesn't mean I think they're bad, I just don't care for them.

As far as the software argument, blah, BLAH, BLAH. What software do you have on a PC that I absolutely need on my Mac (other than radio free virgin, which I can run with virtual pc) that I can't get or run?

One thing people forget is that Emagic was originally for Atari then moved to Mac when Atari crapped out. I've read somwhere they never really wanted to be a multiplatform software. On the Logic lists I belong to it was usually windows people complaining about things that didn't work. Usually not the Logic software but other things especially drivers.

Emagic is about the only software company I know of that took customer complaints to heart to improve the software. People would want a feature and it would usually show up in the next update. Try to get that from Digidesign or anyone else.

Fortunately for me I sit well with what happened. I use Emagic products and software and I use Apple. It's a great thing in my eyes. Look what Apple drove Final Cut (a software company they bought) into being. It's quickly becoming an industry standard in Film making because it's easy to use and powerful. I have the feeling that Logic Titanium on OSX will do the same for music.

As an outlook. Mac knows its market is the creative people. Therefore if they have the best professional grade software, where are the pros gonna go? But you know what, even the version of Logic for windows (5.1 and yes they're releasing a 5.2) is damn good software. If you can't make good music with it, then go get a reel to reel machine and have some fun the old fashioned way cause you shouldn't be doing digital.

Anway, my post got messed up and I can't remember my train of thought, but I'll end by saying that if you love using PC use it. If you love Mac, use it. Otherwise you'll spend all your time bitching about how your computer doesn't work and be miserable.

Here's an article I found which is a bit relevant to this topic. It talks about running Intel processors on Macs...I guess I'm not the only person who thinks it's possible...

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2876696,00.html



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Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

Hi, Larry, thanks for the link.
Well, it would be nice if we could run windows programs without using an emulator. If it's possible without either platform losing efficiency, then it would be really cool. I wonder if it would really make the prices go down.


JeanB

Ok, so since my last post here, Logic 5.2 has been released for both the Mac and Windows. Now in case you're wondering about features, they've added roughly 16 tech pages of new features. Many of which have been asked for since 5.0 was released earlier this year.

Go read some specs on the update at www.emagic.de

Then tell me they don't care about the end users.

Jody

If Apple really wanted to have its own sequencer why didn't they just buy Avid and put a strangle hold on the digital audio and video markets?

May be a stupid question, who knows,

Ben

Nick, the answer is because Avid is primarily a Video (and simple audio) editing program.

The digital audio & sequencing programs are severely different in that they are geared towards creation of music on a multitude of levels... Mixing MIDI with samples and/or recording with Audio.

I have the feeling that there will become two versions of Logic in the future. Likely an iLogic that will be a low end version likened to iMovie. and Logic Titanium likened to Final Cut Pro.

I also believe we're not far from seeing the OSX versions of these two to be released shortly after Jaguar comes out in the next few days. I'm guessing mid September.

Personally I'm foaming at the mouth waiting for these since two other programs that I prefer to use for music have already come to OSX (Reason and Live).

Jody

Here is a link to an article about the whole Emagic/Apple deal. It's much the straight dope on the subject.

http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/sep02/articles/emagic.asp

Now the other night at the meeting I spoke with someone who runs Logic Audio, has several Emagic products, is on a PC and now plans to sue Emagic over the course of these events. After reading this article I don't believe he's going to have a snowball's chance in hell to win. Emagic is going to honor the Windows users' warranties until they expire, which if you read your contracts when you install your software is going to be a couple of years, not ending on Sep. 30th like so many windows users like to state very loudly. Besides in a couple of years, who's to say you won't be getting a new computer or switching software anyway.

But if you're a windows user who is pissed off and want to sell me your Unitor 8 midi interface, I'll seriously consider it.

Jody

He's going to sue them? I hope he has lots of extra money. It's kind of like suing a local 7-Eleven for no longer carrying your favorite brand of soda.



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Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

EMAGIC RELEASES LOGIC FOR OSX!!!!!!!

Yes it's true, now there is an official OSX version of Logic Audio Platinum!!!!

Currently a free download for all registered users of Logic Audio Platinum 5.0. http://www.emagic.de

Much sooner than I had anticipated. I'm like a kid in a candy store, heh. :-)

Jody