JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Hit Songs with NO Hook

Okay, so I've been learning in the lyric forums what hooks do and why they work and what makes them hooks. You have to have a hook. No hook, no HIT, no "good" song.

So.

Somebody tell me HOW "Bohemian Rhapsody" got to be the #1 most recognized song in rock literature with literally NO hook.

Nothing repeats. The title appears nowhere in the actual song. There is no hook, no refrain and no chorus. There is an OPERA section in the middle. It uses at least 36 different chords. It took over 3 weeks of studio time just to record the thing. It's longer than most "radio" songs are.

And nobody cares.
Because DANG, it's one AWESOME song.

I know it's sheer genius. I'm the last one on the planet to argue that! I just want to know how it reached superstar status with literally none of the "conventions" of its (or any) genre.

Could any of us be so lucky?
Are there other examples of songs that break all the "rules" and go big?

Linda


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Linda Adams
Read about my novels:
http://www.alyssastory.com
Bits & pieces of music:
www.soundclick.com/lindaadams

Hi Linda,

Still thinking about Queen huh?

Okay -
Aside from the fact that Queen was an INCREDIBLE band and the fact that ALL bands combined today can not smell them..

#1 The song is as UNIQUE as the band itself.
When I first heard it come over the radio I was frozen by it. I mean that piano riff then -
"Mamma just killed a man
Put a gun against his head
Pulled my trigger now he's dead"

That is gonna get anyones attention!

Linda - A hook don't have to be a chorus.. it can be many many things..
That whole entire song is a Hook!
The piano is a major hook and the meldoy is sublime.
The vocal arrangement and that explosion out of the breakdown section.. And the guitar solo and leads with that ending that is such a hook.. right up to the Gong..

Now the other reasons:

Rock music songs can not have the title even mentioned in the song..How cool! Guitar riffs can be the MAJOR HOOK...
"Smoke On The Water: Anything Jimmy Page plays!

That's why since electric instruments were made Rock music is the GREATEST kind for taking creativity to the max. Sounds and styles so far apart from each other.. I mean how great was Queen now do they sound anything like Tull or Floyd or The Doors..etc...They used to say The Stones were clones of The Beatles how stupid is that?
They are all not even close it was amazing.
What other popular music can boast that - none!

Big reason was also the TIMES musicans and musical people were mostly running the Music Biz. Bands were given alot of creative control.. look at YES's ROUNDABOUT.
Now after hearing that on the radio is Queen so out there?

Pepsi and other HUGE sponsers weren't telling the Music Business what to promote and play to such an extent like they do today.
My good friend just had a meeting with some very in people in the mainstream pop music world. You wouldn't believe how this one guy laid things out. It would make you want to pack it in right now..

Like I always say we had our cheesy pop music back then to.. but we had MONSTER groups and artist that leveled and balanced everything out.. That is gone in mainstream music now.

Well anyway think about this
How can a band stop touring NO PERFORMING! and be the biggest selling, most popular and best ever!
Imagine that 2 years into the mainstream and you never
play out again.. Someone couldn't even dream of that now.

Peace
Sub

[This message has been edited by substudio (edited 09-20-2006).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by substudio:
[B]Hi Linda,

Still thinking about Queen huh?

Yeap Sub,

Linda is a Queenie!!!

I was driving through the mountains the other day & 'BH' came on the radio & I decided to listen to the 'other parts'...Oh my goodness,,,the harmonies are incredible!

There was an interview a year or so ago with the Queen guys where they said "Freddy came to us one day and said "Look Luvs, I've got an idea for a song"....He explained the concept to them & they all thought he was nuts,,,but they went ahead & did it with no expectations of radio play"...& the production was magic!!!

Even though the song has no 'hook', there are so many lines that are just plain old fun to sing along to...Especially if you're riding in a Gremlin with your Wayne's World buds!!

Midnite

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Satchel was right...Something is gaining on me....
www.jackcouldntmakeit.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by adamszoo:
Okay, so I've been learning in the lyric forums what hooks do and why they work and what makes them hooks.

There is your first problem. A hook can be lyrical, but it also can be musical--a guitar riff or a chord pattern, for example. Thinking that hooks must be lyrical only limits you. Limits are a bad thing in creative endeavors.

You have to have a hook.

Not true. You do not have to have a hook, but its probably a good idea to have one. There are zillions of hits that aren't particularly hooky ("Yesterday" e.g.). However there are jillions more that are hooky as hell. I think having a great hook is a solid strategy for writing commercial songs, but necessary? No way.

No hook, no HIT, no "good" song.

There is a ton of historical evidence to the contrary.

You have to be careful who and what you listen to. When people start talking about "rules" and saying that you have to do this and you have to do that, be careful. Part of the talent of the creative soul is to know what is going to work and what isn't. You do not get that kind of stuff from seminars or books, even though both can certainly be helpful in other ways.

Somebody tell me HOW "Bohemian Rhapsody" got to be the #1 most recognized song in rock literature with literally NO hook.

Well, I'm not sure that your statement is accurate. But, nevertheless, it is certainly a well-known song. Without a hook? I'm not sure. I think there are some pretty hooky elements to BR. It certainly serves as a nice example of how the overall sound of a record influences how people react to it. I don't think BR is a particulary wonderful SONG, but I do think it is a magnificent recording, and a great arrangement, and a great performance.

I know it's sheer genius. I'm the last one on the planet to argue that! I just want to know how it reached superstar status with literally none of the "conventions" of its (or any) genre.

Again, I'm not sure I agree with your assesment. Genius? I dunno. That's a powerful word.

BR works for a lot of reasons. First, it was recorded by probably the world's most peopular rock band at the time. Do you think it would have been such a hit if it had been written and recorded by some unknowns form Peoria? I think the best explanation is that it works so well on so many levels: the writing, the singing, the production, the overall sound, its uniqueness. You are basically asking a question that has no answer. If record people knew just what created hits, they would apply that knowledge to EVERY record, and there would be no such thing as a flop. Sometimes the biggest hits are the biggest surprises.

[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 09-20-2006).]

Truman--
Well, at least I got a discussion going. (I think that's the most you've responded to one of my posts!) I appreciate your wisdom, as always.

My question is as subjective as "What is art?" I knew that.

Sub--see Mike D's answer. Yes, very often thinking Queen. LOL, to each of us his (or her) own eccentricities.

Then let us have a moment of silence for the loss of musicians running the industry, and promoting music by a 'modern business model.'

[................................


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And figure out if there will ever be a way to resurrect that climate. This is the real problem at heart, IMO. I think the indie movement has a chance.

BTW... "Radio GaGa" as used in the current "We Will Rock You" theater version describes the modern over-marketing of music to a T.


Thanks also for the reminders that a hook doesn't have to be lyrical. Several of my lyrics don't have major ones. I'm pointing to "Rhapsody" as an example of something that doesn't have "I love you, yeah yeah yeah" over and over and still succeeded (commercially AND artistically).

Any other favorite songs that fall in this category?

Thanks for talking, guys, love the discussion.

Linda


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Linda Adams
Read about my novels:
http://www.alyssastory.com
Bits & pieces of music:
www.soundclick.com/lindaadams

Linda:

Great topic. Sub and Truman, most insightful replies. That's what makes this board so exceptional.

Dave

A song in which the title isn't mentioned? How about "Smells Like Teen Spirit"?

I think part of the "hook" of a song could be how the song engrosses you, or how you're engrossed by the song. That, and the emotions that the song stirs up.

For example, in "Yesterday" (my dad was a Beatles fan, I'm almost 30, so I got my exposure), the hook is in the emotions conveyed in the song. The guy was happy, but now he's not because his woman left. His happiness just leads to sadness because when he thinks back (I believe in Yesterday), he's happy, yet sad at the same time.

For BH, also, you had this giant of a charismatic performer building a legend. That helps. But it is an incredible song / recording.

Linda, if you haven't, read some of the top songwriting books.

There was a Jimmy Webb song (Glen Campbell) lately that struck me that there is no chorus. I think maybe it was Gentle On My Mind. I guess that's Jimmy Webb. "Gentle on my mind" is a repeating phrase, so, it's the hook. Johnny Cash's "Folsom Prison Blues" has no chorus. But he does repeat "Folsom Prison" a few times but that's it. EDIT: Also, "Big River" has no chorus. He says "Big River" a few times. But verse 1 in its entirety is repeated at the end. But it's not a chorus.

But... 99% of songs from that era into modern day DO have a chorus.

I have a book I have been re-reading. "A Hard Day's Write," which is "the story behind the song" for Beatles songs. I think just about all of them. It's fascinating and you get this sense of how creative they were. As a Beatles fan, reading this and thinking about these AMAZING songs they whipped out, it's truly mind-blowing. I mean, I have ideas and I write songs but I don't experiment like they did. Of course, it rock in its early days and they and others kind of took it to another level. They usually had a hook, too.

[This message has been edited by DukeWill (edited 09-20-2006).]

Good topic Linda. Good opinions as well folks
Truman's reply got me thinking about guitar riff hooks. First song that came to mind is Layla. I haven't heard that song in years but that guitar riff is one I'll never forget. And Clapton is way down my list of electric blues/rock players. (makes the top 10 though)

What's that Stones song ? "sympathy for the devil" I'd have to think about the words went, but I'll never forget the "woo woo, woo woo.....". Very memorable.

tony




[This message has been edited by TonyW (edited 09-20-2006).]

Hey Duke,

Gotta give proper credit here...John Harford(the late great dearly departed) wrote Gentle on my mind...Jimmy Webb wrote 'By the time I get to Phoenix' & 'I am a lineman for the county' the Mr. Cambell had hits with..

Midnite

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DukeWill:

There was a Jimmy Webb song (Glen Campbell) lately that struck me that there is no chorus. I think maybe it was Gentle On My Mind. I guess that's Jimmy Webb. "Gentle on my mind" is a repeating phrase, so, it's the hook.



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Satchel was right...Something is gaining on me....
www.jackcouldntmakeit.com

One "hookless" song that comes to mind that is one of my favorite Dylan songs (as well as one of my favorite love songs) is "Love Minus Zero/No Limit." *Nothing* is repeated (and the title--standard for Dylan songs of the era--is not mentioned anywhere in the song, either). But the imagery is compelling. I have no idea whether it was ever a hit.

That said, most songs do have hooks of one sort or another. They do not have to have bridges or even choruses, and the hook can be as teeny as a word or short phrase if it's used right. But just about everybody's got a hook.

Keith Richards of the Stones was a master (my opinion) of the musical hook; some of his riffs are timeless and unforgettable. Most of those old Stones songs had lyrical hooks, too, though.

Joe
www.soundclick.com/bands/7/joewrabek_music.htm

Freddy, singing about contracting AIDS, yeah, nice song; I guess death is quite inspiring, but a bit extreme for trying to get a hit record.

Don't get me wrong, Freddy comes into my dreams all the time to tell me things, he likes my music or something like that.

But then again, I don't sit down and write songs, I dream them; it's easier this way because you just have to wake up, record it, and it's done.

Plenty of songs break the rules; the whole point is to break the rules. If you follow the crowd you can't possibly lead them unless they turn on you.

Whatever words come out, put them down, put them to whatever music you hear. Rules were invented by people who didn't know how to play and who still don't know how to write. The languages of music and English in the schoolbooks is not the music we sing nor the language we speak.

By the way, you can credit Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach for the 1 minute and the 3 minute song, not Hollywood nor Nashville nor New York City. The thing about the classical masters is that first and foremost, they broke the rules; most of them were, in their time, outlawed, censored, or banned altogether. Those who obey the rules never get noticed and those who break them always do.

To me, all these songs mentioned have "hooks." Yesterday's hook is "Yesterday." When I think Bohemian Rhapsody, I think of three hooks: "Mama," "Galileo," and "Beelzebub."

I can't think of a song (except maybe some new age) that doesn't have a hook. If a song didn't have a hook, that would be the hook.

Mike

Thank you, Terry & MikeD,

Terry--where's your music posted for a listen? If Freddie likes it, I might too.

Mike--I was thinking "yesterday" was the hook for "Yesterday." Thanks for seconding that for me.

Maybe we need a topic for defining "what IS a hook?"

My question sort of comes from this; I was strongly urged in one of my lyric posts ("When the Rain Falls") that I didn't have enough "hook" in the lyric. It's rewritten now to do that (version #3), and generally readers are voting they like that version better, but I'm still more fond of version #2 (my first rewrite) which had less "hook." (If you'd like to read these and let me know, see the topic "You're the Light" in Lyric board 3, I'll go bump it back to the top.) Maybe it still needs a version #4.

Isn't it important to know the rules before breaking them? Even Picasso COULD paint a beautiful "standard" portrait, had he wanted to.

Maybe that's why I like Freddie's work as much as I do... he broke the rules so well AND got away with it--commercial success plus artistic brilliance.

Tell him hello for me next time, K?!

Linda




edit--typo, oops
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Linda Adams
Read about my novels:
http://www.alyssastory.com
Bits & pieces of music:
www.soundclick.com/lindaadams

[This message has been edited by adamszoo (edited 09-23-2006).]

Very interesting topic!

I agree with many of the responses here...

Even with classical music, we can usually hum or repeat a particular section that stands out to our ears...most of the music of the Western Hemisphere has various types of reapeated sections in it, and pop/rock.folk.country etc. is no execption...

That said, I agree that some very famous songs don't seem to follow the predictable pattern of having the exact same kind of hooks...that's what makes true artistry exciting - the writer's ability to go beyond conventional boundaries in order to create something beautiful. Whether or not something is commercial is subjective; so many songs that "break the rules" have become big hits !!


Emily


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http://emilysanders.net

Hmmmm...what rules? Where does one find this rulebook that I keep hearing so much about? Who enforces the rules? Which of them did Freddy break? I'm so confused.

Is the meaning of a Hook repetition of anything? For instance, if verse 2 has the same melodic layout as verse 1 with different words, there's a kind of subliminal hook, a way of the song getting into your brain so you remember it better.

If this is the case, most songs have hooks. Try to write a song where the melody changes throughout and nothing gets repeated and you'll see how hard it is.

You can have an instrumental hook that gets repeated over and over throughout or you can have a one-off hook at the beginning that is so strong you won't forget it.

A chorus is a hook because it's repeated whereas a bridge or middle-eight isn't because it's usually used just once.

I can't write a song without any repetition and wouldn't even try because it would be difficult to follow for the listener, let alone the songwriter.

Bohemian Rhapsody has hooks throughout but it's definitely a unique piece of work. It's hard to be unique in any respect these days so you have to hand it to them don't you.

Cheers

ALM

I would say that a repeated motif and a hook are NOT the same thing. The word HOOK implies something that really catches the ear and makes a song instantly memorable and distinctive. The guitar riff in "Satisfaction" is a hook. "A-wop-bop-a-lu-bop-a-wop-bam-boom" is a hook. Gretchen Wilson yelling "Hell yeah!" is a hook.

Some hooks are more in-your-face than others. Some are more subtle. But if you call everything in a song that repeats a HOOK, then there really is no definition at all.

That's a great point.

Queen had a neat trick. They were a mega band with money making hits and total creative control. They could write or do anything they wanted at that point.

Without that you have to follow the rules to keep from getting ruled out. How would you demo "Bohemian Rhapsody" so a producer / performer would understand what you were doing. how could you reproduce it yorself without considerable financial backing.

Once a track record and/or relationship is built the rules get flexible. The more success the more flex.

Very good point.
sigh.....

Linda



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Linda Adams
Read about my novels:
http://www.alyssastory.com
Bits & pieces of music:
www.soundclick.com/lindaadams

Ah, but there is another way to look at this: every slightly off-center, unconventional, out-of-the-mainstream record you've ever heard was made possible because some record exec somewhere took a chance on that artist and put out a record.

Sure Queen probably could not have done BR on their first record, but it is also quite possible that they were not ready to create their masterpiece at that time. Certainly, the Beatles had to earn the right to do the experimental stuff they did, but at the same time, those guys were not ready, in 1963 and 1964, to create Sgt. Pepper.

Even Dylan worked his way into his true genius. His first album, although considered by many a breakthrough at the time, contained nothing truly unconventional, and nothing that would indicate where he would end up. And even if one does consider that album to be a watershed, then all the more credit must go to Columbia for having the moxie to put it out.

I think its usually a matter of forward progress and momentum.

Being unique is not hard.... being unique and being popular at the same time... now that is something else all together...

The best most of us can hope for is to be good and diferent enough to spark interest

As Alan said.... a hook can either be musical or lyrical... the are lots of country and folk ballads that have no lyrical hook.... El paso is probobly one of the better known ones...

Cheers

Noel


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http://www.soundclick.com/whichdoctor

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