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How important is it to get songs critiqued before sending demos to publishers or record companies?

Do you only ask for critiques of songs you think need help, or do you get critiques of your favorites too?

Just wondering what other songwriters are doing. Thanks! --Jean

Hmmm....

I think it's a good idea to get critiques for both - I have found that what matters is WHO I ask to critique!

I have found that getting cirtuqes and feedback can really help identify potential problems - some of my best re-writes came after getiing critiques...

Emily

Well, I suppose that all depends how good you are. If you are putting out grade A prime material already, then there is no need for any critiques...

Of course how would you semi-objectively know that if you don't get some critiques .

I don't think critiques are ever a bad idea. Take what you think is helpful, leave what's not and hopefully keep getting better. That's the goal after all, right?

------------------
John

http://www.nowhereradio.com/johnscott/singles

Emily--
John--

Thank you for your answers! It sure is nice to have somebody to ask--and get good answers back! I appreciate your helpfulness! Thanks a lot! --Jean

Get as much critical input as you can--especially on the songs you think are your best. They are the ones that will benefit most from constructive criticism. Sometimes it's just a small tweak--one you'd never have thought of--that nudges a song over the top.

TrumanCoyote--

Thanks so much for your reply! I really appreciate the insight from a more experienced songwriter. --Jean

Emily,

Thanks for the input!

I have another question as a follow-up:

You wrote, "I have found that what matters is WHO I ask to critique!"

Where is a good place to start? I'm new to JPF and anyone here would be a stranger to me. When you know people and know their musical expertise, you can "consider the source." There are certain musicians that I know personally whose compliments or suggestions I would take very seriously, and others who, though I enjoy their praise, I have to look at it as "fluff" because I know their standards of musical excellence are way below mine. How do you know which comments to take seriously and which to brush off when you don't know the reviewers personally? Do you try to get lots and lots of feedback and then just pay attention if the same comments come up multiple times?

--Jean

You do a lot of research on the board. See what people say, check the material they write, go to their websites.

Bill

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We too often throw around the word "great" like it was a frisbee, instead of the manhole cover it should be.

Thanks, Bill!

Now I'll have to try to find YOUR website so I can decide if I should follow your advice to check people's websites! Ar! Ar!

Seriously, thanks!

--Jean

Hey, Jean, not that I'm any kind of expert AT ALL..... I've only been on here a few days, but I saw so much talent and so many varied points of view, I figured it was worth it to trust people who are basically trusting me. I've gotten good reviews and mediocre ones. Really the folks you'll find here are just doing what you are... feeling out how their songs would be received commercially... and lending fresh eyes to each other's work. Good luck, hope you stay on with us!

Joann

Hi Joann! Thanks for your input. Just Plain Folks does seem to be a safe place to start.

People on here have answered several big questions for me and I'm really grateful. I hope I'll be able to offer some help or good advice to someone else here too.

Thanks for the friendly message & your viewpoint! --Jean

Jean,

Check out NSAI (Nashville Songwriters Associataion International). There web addy is www.nashvillesongwriters.com.

Even though they are a Nashville-based organization, you do not have to be a country writer to enjoy the benefits of membership. All genres are welcome.

They have regional workshops that generally meet one a month--I'm sure there is one in St. Louis (go to the web site and click on the workshops link). The workshops are a GREAT place to get thoughtful critiques of your work. They also offer a professional critique service that is free to members. Workshops also offer nice networking opportunities in your area, and a good place to hook up with potential co-writers.

I'm sure you can attend a workshop prior to joining so you can see if it is to your liking. Give it a try.

I have to say that not getting critiques is dangerous, cause I tend to love stuff that I should be disgarding or rewriting. I can't count the number of times I came up with a song that in my smugness and self assured way thought it was the greatest thing in the world and then some one with 2 posts comes on and shows me how to write it better. Until I every comment I get on my stuff say the same thing I feel abouth it, I will seek out critiques because you always learn there is more than just your perspective. ANd sometimes that other perspective is the better way to go. I keep learning this again and again.

Good Writing....Paul

I am a firm believer in getting critiques of my work. I guess it's relative as to who is best to critique your work. The folks here at JPF have been quite helpful to me, for one avenue.

When I get critical responses, it is often apparent that the person is correct. Their suggestion would unquestionably make a song better...but it was something I failed to see or think about before. Sometimes a person will make a suggestion that I *know* will not work, because it does not fit with my "songwriter's voice", in other words...it would no longer be "my" song. Then there are times when I don't initially agree with someone's suggestion, but when 20 people have the same criticism...they may be right.

Just last night, I was at a critique session....two professional writers who had a different opinion of almost every song that was played for them. When it came time to critique my song, they had different opinions...different opinions of why the song doesn't work! So, in that case, I concentrated more on the fact that this particular song probably doesn't work in general.

Anyway, JPF is a very useful place for convenient, no cost song critiques. If you're just starting out, I especially think it will do you some good to utilize this resource. NSAI, as mentioned before, is also a great place. It does cost to join, but you get more bang for your buck out of it than any comparable organization, IMO.

Good luck to you.

Randy

what i do is i have people listin to each line and if there is even one line people don't like i rewrite it untill most people like every line. anyways if you are looking to sell your songs visit my homepage www.sellsongs.com become a member and place an add

Thank you TrumanCoyote!

I'm planning to attend the next NSAI meeting in my area, since I can go for free a couple of times. Sounds like it's a good organization.

--Jean

Paul T. Wentworth--

Thanks for your input! You've convinced me to go ahead and get some critiques. First I have to get a decent recording of some of my songs, so I guess it'll be a while. I appreciate your taking the time to respond to my post!

--Jean

Randy B--

Thank you for your response! I really appreciate the insight. I think I just need to quit being insecure and take the plunge--what have I got to lose? Thanks for giving me a more experienced songwriter's perspective. Very helpful! --Jean

Jean,... I feel Critiques are important...because..so many times, it's a small detail....or maybe...A LARGE ONE ..
we overlook.. Many times.., we overlook them when we're writing..because..we've nurtured..this song..
from a "baby" up....and we become attached and can't always see the obvious...

Something I think helps is, ..to step back from the song for awhile....and then review
the constructive comments offered with fresh eyes.

best wishes,
Kaley

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/4/willownwind.htm

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/kaleywillow.htm

http://www.flashfast.com/kids/

Thanks, Kaley! I appreciate your sharing your experience with me!

Right now I only have one song recorded, and that was done in a hurry--not a great performance or recording. Once I get some of my others recorded, I'll be sure to ask for some critiques from JPF people. It seems like that will be a pretty safe place to start.

Thanks for your helpful advice! --Jean

Emily, John, Truman, Bill, Joann, Paul, Randy, and Kaley--

This is not big news, but since you all were kind enough to give me some advice on critiquing, thought I'd let you know I went ahead and had my only recorded song critiqued at an NSAI meeting tonight.

I thought I was going to pass out from nervousness while the song was playing. I was sitting there thinking how I wish I had recorded it differently--without the instrumental, and no repeats--and how I didn't sing it that well, and how I play the song so much better now because it was only a week old when I recorded it many months ago. Anyway, the NSAI members were really nice to me, and gave me lots of ideas on how to "fix" my lyrics, and just said positive things about the melody. It wasn't nearly as painful as I thought it would be.

I didn't like some of the suggestions, but I did come away with one thing I'll probably change. Sure is uncomfortable asking for opinions, but it was good to find out how the words came across and whether the message I intended actually got through. It's a lot easier giving my own opinion on someone else's song than getting feedback on my own.
I'm SO glad to have the first critique behind me. Next time should be easier to take!

Anyway, I'm sure this was thrilling to read! My point was that I am grateful for the good advice on getting critiques. Thank you!!

--Jean

Jean: Yeah I had a problem with people not liking what I wrote. Couldn't undarstand it cause everything I wrote was so good---duh!!

Well I am smarter now and it doesn't hurt cause its feedback I can use to make things better. If you remember you're only as good as your last song and that wasn't as great as you thought when you were writing it, then you know that you are growing.

Keep in touch.....Paul

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JL:

I'm SO glad to have the first critique behind me. Next time should be easier to take!



Next time, be sure to watch the others closely as your song plays. It is VERY intructive to a writer to see how people react to the song. Study their faces and their reactions.

Truman--

Thanks, I'll try that. This time, Ha!, I was way too uncomfortable to look up much. I did see the person across from me moving to the beat, which was encouraging (and surprising, because it was a slow, quiet song).

I can't complain about the critique I got. People seemed to be honest and straightforward. Lucky for me, the criticisms were just about the lyrics, and the music is more important to me, so it wasn't too painful! Those who told me how the song made them feel described exactly what I intended when I wrote it. And a couple of people said the musical feel of the song matched the message of the lyric, which was made me happy.

I'm sure I talked too much, and I think I told one person I didn't like their idea--wish I'd just said, "thank you" instead! At least I didn't start bawling and scream "you people don't know what you're talking about!" Like I said, I'm just glad I lived through it. I'm kind of a shy, unassertive person by nature, so it's always a stretch for me to stick myself out there. Unfortunately for me, sharing my music involves putting myself out there all the time. I really like people, but I don't like being the center of attention, so I've had to learn to deal with that, with all the performing I do. I don't intend to pitch this song, but I will probably perform it in public, so getting it critiqued is worth the torture if it improves the song for my future audience. Maybe I'll see what kind of response I get from JPF people and see if they say the same things about the song.

This was a big first for me, and I'm sure I sound like a real idiot so now I'll stop! Thanks for the good advice! --Jean

Paul--

Thanks for the advice on what attitude to take. I hope to grow a thicker skin, and I do see the great value of getting honest opinions back.

Now I'm struggling with weighing my own opinions against the ones I got last night. I think I need to solicit some from JPF on this song, even though it's not my best song, to see if I get similar comments.

Thanks for your input--this is all new to me and I really appreciate the help! Hope another new person might benefit from reading this thread, too. Thanks a lot! --Jean

That's the ticket. Thank people for their thoughts. DON'T defend your song. There is no point, and it shows a lack of class.

Thanks, Truman!

I hope I didn't "defend" my song! I tried to listen and understand what people were saying, and I wrote it all down to look at later.

I was just happy that they took the time to listen to it, put some thought into it, and be honest with me. That was really valuable. So are your comments. Thanks! --Jean

I posted my song on another forum and got a big bunch of critiques. On to the next hard part--sifting through a lot of undeserved praise and a lot of what I consider really silly ideas on how to fix the song, to end up with 2 ideas that I think would actually make the song a little better. I find it hard to take in all these different comments and decide which to ignore. If I followed all the advice, I would end up with the stinkiest song imaginable! I am not complaining because people are giving me advice with nothing but a "thank you" in return! I'm actually really grateful to find out how the song comes across and what problems people have with it. On the other hand, I'm starting to get the impression that improving my songwriting is partly about continuing to discover my own "voice" and trust my own judgement.

--Jean

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/jeanlmusic.htm

That's the ticket. Thank people for their thoughts. DON'T defend your song. There is no point, and it shows a lack of class.

Sound advice, for the most part.

But there are times when one has to scratch one's head and say aloud "what are you thinking, man?", especially to some people who make an olympic event of picking nits and/or amuse themselves in the practice of "damning with faint praise".

I commented on a song once and totally missed a reference which pretty much explained/justified the writer's intent, and until he brought it to my attention, I would have thought that my evaluation was correct.

I have found that the occasional give-and-take debate also makes for a great learning experience. There's a reason why people are expected to "defend their thesis" - not out of ego, but because it forces them to really test what they think they know/believe and because it makes for interesting learning on both sides (make that on three sides: the giver, the taker, and the stander-by just listening/reading).

JL is right. The best thing one gets from board workshops is the ability to filter out the rare one or two cogent comments, and to learn to trust one's own inclinations for the majority of the time (assuming of course that one has reached a given level of competence).

The trick is staying open enough to mine the occasional gem someone brings up, but staying closed enough to know when a given opinion is eminently ignorable, worthy only for extra callouses upon one's rhino hide.

Critiques are Critical!

If your goal is to write commercial songs, I feel critiques are critical. If you invest in your music and pay to get expensive demos done.

Why not spend $25 and a little time rewriting?

It's better than spending $500 demoing a song

1) with fatal flaws,
2) you'll need to rewrite and redemo. or
3) you never should have demoed in the first place.

I'm a big believer in getting peer critiques and pro critiques.

ande

How important is it to get songs critiqued before sending demos to publishers or record companies? Do you only ask for critiques of songs you think need help, or do you get critiques of your favorites too? Just wondering what other songwriters are doing. Thanks! --Jean

I am enjoying reading your different takes on this subject. Thanks for the input, everybody!

RobertK--

You wrote, "The trick is staying open enough to mine the occasional gem someone brings up, but staying closed enough to know when a given opinion is eminently ignorable, worthy only for extra callouses upon one's rhino hide."

Very well put, and I like the analogies! I'm definitely trying to do just that. I was hoping there would be some common thread--one or two comments that came up several times--but it hasn't been that easy. I've paid more attention to the comments that had to do with whether the listener got the message I intended or not.

I figure it's just like when I was afraid to go off the diving board. I just had to keep doing it until the fear faded to a manageable level--even if that meant sliding out on my belly the first time! Probably I'll always be uncomfortable with critiques, but not scared like I was with this first one. And I kind of did slide out on my belly by putting up a song that is not the one I'm most proud of.

Anyway, thanks for the input on this subject!! --Jean

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/jeanlmusic.htm

[This message has been edited by JL (edited 02-13-2004).]

When you are having your work critqued, it does not matter what others say. It is merely their opinion, and they are willing to share it in hopes of helping you out. You are not required, or even expected, to edit your song based on what others think.

What they say or think does not matter...THEY have no responsibility to the song. You do, therefore, what YOU think about what they say is what's important. The whole key to getting a critique is in hearing things THAT YOU HADN'T THOUGHT OF.

Ten people can drone on about what word they would have chosen, or that your imperfect rhyme is too imperfect. Doesn't matter. But one guy might say something and--BINGO--a little lamp lights up in your brain and you know you have just gotten a gift. Take that gift and make your song better. Just politely ignore the rest.

Things I learned the hard way:


Collect and reflect on as many opinions as possible and reflect on them. See if what they are saying has value.

Sometimes suggestions or rewrites are offered. Even if they aren't exactly what you need, examine them. They may act as a springboard to other ideas. The suggestions may not be suitable but the fact that the reviewers thought something needed to be changed may be a red flag to reexamine the areas they thought needed changing.

Consider the writing style of the reviewer. Some "rules" are specific to certain genres. They may not suit the genre you intend the song to fit. What doesn't work in Country may work very well in Rock. Consider that before making any changes.

Some people say content shouldn't be critiqued. I feel it's a good idea to look at the emotional reaction of the reviewers to the content. The response to the content may reflect how some of the listening public may respond. A good thing to consider if your target audience will be general rather than specific.

Look at the critiques reviewers give to others on the board. Do they usually praise the works you think are inferior? It could be that they just like to encourage people or that they are not as particular as you.

Some people want to show support but really don't know how to tell you that your song isn't quite cutting it. If you see that they are trying to avoid direct comment on the song, that may be a sign it needs work. Of course, it may be a sign that the reviewer is not taking the time to really examine the work and is putting in his or her quota of responses for networking purposes.

Sometimes a reviewer's style is a bit abrasive or seems harsh. Try to overlook it and see what they are saying. They may be good critics but tact challenged. Be careful not to read "attitude" into the written word that may not be there. Give them the benefit of a doubt unless they overtly prove themselves otherwise.

Don't take reactions to your songs personally, especially when posting. Sometimes our first reaction is disdain, resentment, or irritation because the reviewer failed to see our "artistic genius."
"Hmmmph. What do you know?" Cool off a little before you respond. They may actually be right.

Don't assume your song is a loser or that you are an inferior writer just because people have found some flaws. I have seen songs riddled with flaws, but with correction they become exceptional works. It's the polishing that makes them shine.

Some people have great ideas and write a song with potential but they aren't good at editing their work. When suggestions are made by a good editor, remember that the song is still your song and wouldn't have existed without your creative idea, so you should feel free to take the ideas offered. If I were cooking a stew and somebody said throw in a few herbs and a pinch of salt, I would still consider myself the cook. The herbs and salt would be nothing without the basic ingredients.

I guess some songwriting workshop teachers tell people to be prepared to defend their work but I have a feeling many people take that the wrong way. The work you present needs to be so good that you can easily "defend" it. There is no defense for obvious and glaring flaws. When someone points out what they perceive to be a flaw, check it out with an open mind and see if it is. There is nothing so tedious as people defending every thing they wrote in a song. If what they wrote is perfect and unflawed, why do they need a critique?

If people say your song is confusing, be careful not to assume the people aren't bright enough to understand your concepts and write a page and a half of explanations. They are often trying to say you wrote in a confusing way, not that they are confused. (Of course, sometimes they really are confused, LOL.)

Find a way of acknowledging people for their support. If you take everything under consideration (whether you dismiss the suggestions or not) you can truly say that you will consider the suggestions.

Finally, don't be mislead by the number of posts next to your topic. Some people feel it's polite to thank each reviewer in a separate post, some like to bump their topic up near the top by thanking them individually, and some people are actually having conversations that has nothing to do with the song. Some like to consolidate their acknowledgements so their topic doesn't bump others down too far. Do the math. If you have 10 -15 replies from people reviewing your work (not counting your own replies to them) you are getting a great response.

Consider, reflect, then decide. It is up to you and reasonable people won't get upset if you don't take their suggestions.

If you consistently get less than glowing reviews (especially from "gentle" reviewers) it's possible that a little more objectivity may be required.

Take care,

JeanB

[This message has been edited by AKA JeanB (edited 02-13-2004).]

Thanks, Truman, for explaining what to do with a pile of critiques. NOW I get it!

In fact--BINGO--a little lamp just lit up in my brain and I know I have just gotten a gift! Wait, where's the smiley with the sunglasses 'cause this is bright!

Sorry, I'm a little goofy at the moment--but I am serious that this is a light bulb moment and your post is a gift.

It's been really frustrating to read some of the critiques (on another forum) because people have basically rewritten 3/4 of the chorus or something, and what they wrote is, well....they mean well. On the other hand, based on their other comments, the main message of the song has gotten through exactly as I intended, and it has made them feel the way I had hoped--that's a really valuable thing for me to find out about all of my songs, I think. If those two things don't come through the way I intend, the song will require a major rewrite on my part because that is pretty basic to me.

Your short post above has really helped me shift my focus so I know what I'm REALLY looking for in a set of critiques. It's going to be a lot easier to ignore those "helpful" pieces of specific advice that really fall short of....well, like I said, they mean well, and I do appreciate the generous spirit in which the ideas are offered.

I am SO much more relaxed about this now! Thank you for the clarification! --Jean


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/jeanlmusic.htm

[This message has been edited by JL (edited 02-14-2004).]

JeanB--

Wow! I am so grateful that you took the time and effort to cover all of those points. You are a very generous person!

And all of it was helpful, sound advice.

Based on what you say here, I think I've handled my first critiques pretty well. Still good to find out from someone who has been there before. This is a lot of good information!--for me and any others reading it who are getting their first critiques. Thank you so much!!

FYI, one comment that I initially felt kind of offended by (and tried REALLY hard not to let that emotion show), I set aside and tried out the idea the next day. I decided not to use it, but that was based on really considering it, not just a first reaction. I was proud of myself for that, and I'm going to continue that policy of giving it a little time and actually trying it before deciding.

Some ideas I don't need to try, believe me, but the ones that are at all iffy I'll truly consider.

I have already run into the difference in genre and style thing more than once on this one little song. I've just politely thanked the person and said to myself, "that applies to country but not to the style I'm working in."

This is a definite growth experience. I wouldn't even know about the fact of getting critiques, let alone be able to work through this first round of them, without people like you and this forum. I'm really grateful to you! --Jean

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/jeanlmusic.htm

[This message has been edited by JL (edited 02-14-2004).]