JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Country????

I haven't been posting here for very long, but I've been coming here to read for quite some time.

I've been to a number of members sites, soundclick seems to be a fav, and I've listened to a lot of stuff I wouldn't have taken the time to record. Some of what I've heard, to be honest, is so lame it would embarass me to have anyone hear it.

The thing I'm trying to figure out is why so many list the genre as country when it's more like folk, blues, or some new wave acoustic americana stuff.

Granted, country has gone through a lot of changes over the years, but it still has a fairly distinctive feel and sound.

That's a good question Harry. Perhaps it's because people aren't sure where they fit in.
I know that my co-writer and I wouldn't know how to classify many of the songs we write. We are probably more folky than country but I'm not sure we're quite folk either.

It's even more confusing when some songs by Shania, Faith and many others are played on country stations when they are clearly not country songs. After hearing those, you can understand why some would consider their songs to be country as well.

Since country music is much more popular than folk and some other genres, why wouldn't someone trying to get noticed want to be where the people are listening?

Van

Quite often it is hard to nail exactly what genre to label a song with.
I have been known to change the genre of some of mine after posting them to see if they fair better in another genre they have a smell of in them.
I have had judge comments come back saying "Nice song, but not country/blu4es/jazz/whatever when I have entered them in competitions.
All in the ear of the beholder I guess Harry.
Toward your first statement though Harry. I am sure you musthave heard some good stuff in there as well as the not so good, and wonder why you mention one without the other.
For the more than two years I ran Roar Radio, I collected nearly all the songs I used on the show from Soundclick and SongRamp, and had little trouble in finding some very good material.
Suggest you decide what genre you like. Go to the charts for that and am sure you will find stuff you like.
Doesn't take long to work out which artists sing ihn the style you class as what you are looking for.
I'm not a big country fan but do enjoy The few country ones Bob Young does. Round And Round and Last Farewell Tour are my favourites of his in ye haw mode.
Blake Hill and Texas Songslingers, Chris Dasch, Chuck Crowe, Mo Cauffey, and Piper Kirk are all well worth checking out Harry.
It takes time to find them but they are there.
Soundclick is popular. Am told it is the most used sound forum in the world actually.
Graham



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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Actually, I like Gillian Welch's idea that record stores should just have one category and line everybody up alphabetically. Never had much use for pigeonholes, myself. If asked what kind/category/pigeonhole my own stuff is, I don't have an answer except to play the music and let people enjoy it; whatever they might choose to call it is their problem, not mine.

You have, of course, noticed that when a "folk" artist (Shawn Colvin for example) sells a lot of copies they get "moved" into country or pop. God forbid anyone should admit that they like folk, or that an (f-word) artist made a popular record. I tend to like the artists that find the space between the categories.

I'm with Guildslinger..

Most of the people I would pay to hear are sort of in the cracks..

I don't evenb know whoit is that determines what genre an artist is in..
It used to be the artist themself, but those daze are gone.

Good luck figuring it out and if and when you do..drop me an e mailand explain it to me !

Bob Young

it's true... genre definitions are a little muddy.

as others have pointed out here, genres exist to sell music to targeted audiences, not necessarily to define what it is.

also remember that genre music is a relatively recent phenomenon - owing a lot to the development of technology that created a popular music industry. before that (somebody correct me if i'm wrong), we basically just had various kinds of folk music (blues, bluegrass, sea shanties, gospel, and other little dities) and the highbrow stuff that we now call classical (what did we call it then?).

as anyone who has studied the history of modern taxonomy knows - large systems of classification always seem grow more complex as more people get to have input in them, and as the systems get applied more and more broadly to more and more things.

add to the mix the fact that almost all music made today takes from multiple different song traditions in one way or another. whether that's because more people get exposed to more music, or because more people need to sell more music to more different groups -- i'll leave that for someone else to sort out.

in the mean time, i'm proud to call myself an urban-folk-rock-insurgent-country-protest-blues-indie-punk



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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

btw -- that's seems awfully easy for someone who doesn't have a website with mp3s posted in their profile to say.

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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

I have elected to remain annon-omous at this point. Although, anyone with the desire to dig could.........



[This message has been edited by Harry J (edited 02-19-2004).]

Oh, and I saw this qoute while reading a little tonight here on the lyrics board.

When asked what genre it was written in;

"It's country, kinda, sorta, I think"

so - i remain a little confused about what yr problem is...

are you bothered by the existence of crossover music?

are you bothered by the fact that sometimes people write songs and can't clearly define what genre they belong in?

or do you feel that most people's definition of "country" is overly broad?

granted, country does have a distinctive sound. but it's still a fairly large, broad catagory -- and in any large catagory you're gonna be able to find marginal examples that could go both ways.

i mean - we live in a world in which johnny cash and shania twain are both considered country -- and the stones and metallica are both considered rock bands.

whenever i'm confused about what the essential elements of a particular genre are - i always pop over to the All Music Guide... www.allmusic.com -- their definition of country leaves a lot of room for many different sounds:

"Country music is about tradition, yet its simple form lends itself to endless variations on similar themes. Like blues — the two genres often shared themes, melodies and songs — country is a simple music at its core. Most of its songs are built around three chords and a plain melody, but these forms are so basic, they allow for many different styles, from the gritty sounds of honky tonk to the jazzy improvisations of Western Swing. Country music grew out of American Southern folk music, both Appalachian and blues, and old-time country was simple and folky, with just guitars and fiddles. As the genre progressed, old time music evolved into the rhythmic guitar-and-fiddle driven traditional country that became the foundation of modern country music, from honky tonk and Western Swing to the pop-oriented Countrypolitan and rock-inflected Bakersfield Sound."



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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

no thanks. i'm too lazy.


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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

Bothered by crossover? No
That's been around for a long time.
Even The Dead did country, along with a lot of others over the years, but they felt it.

What bothers me is the latter two of your questions. People have a hard time discerning what genre to place their song in so they tend to just say country as if it's like a catch all and it's okay. Then you listen to their recording of it and it ain't country at all. Not only is the rythym not country, but the individual singing it ain't even close.

Although pop music infiltrated the country scene through the last decade, as in Shania, the backbone of the rythym remained solid, along with that little twang in the vocals.....a la....the feel.

Hi All,
To me Country Music is Hank Williams, Webb Pierce, Ray Price, Faron Young, etc. A lot of people today still want to hear music in that vein. Much of what you hear on the radio today is at best a watered down version of those long gone days. It has been charged in recent years that Radio is dictating to the Record Labels what they will Air. A lot of Artists today are writing their own material because the labels want it that way because they don't have to pay full writer's royalities but use the composition clause that only pays 75 percent in the Artists Contract. While a lot of the Artists can deliver good music they are also told what to record and they comply to get that record deal. Most of the results are less than stellar, even terrible. Record sales reflect that today. When Willie and Waylon went back to Texas and then recorded that Album the way they wanted to, the title escapes me, and was the first album to sell a million records, it said something about what the fans wanted to hear. What the fans want to hear hasn't changed but with radio calling the shots the good music will be scarce. A lot of Artists that aren't really country but are trying to do country and getting airplay doesn't help either. Who listen's to country radio anymore?

To me this is such a moot subject and here I am contributing to more wasted space on a wasted subject but here goes.....

Country will never....ever....ever....ever be what it was 20, 30 or 40 years ago. Reminisce about it. Listen to your old 45's and tilt a can of suds in salute but quit letting everyone know just how much you can't stand todays sub-genres of country music.

Those of us that have grown up in the 70,s and 80's are a product of the age. We have been saturated and innundated by so many cultures that we're just trying to make sense of it musically the best way that we can and the result is what you hear today.

In the 50's and 60's, how many different kinds of music were there on a.m. radio anyway?.....two?

Your drawn to what you grew up with because that was all that was available to listen to and your influences were few. Those of us in todays country scene have grown up with a veritable plethera of musicals examples and the many styles that have developed are merely an extension of that influence.

What your too embarassed to have anyone listen to is probably what's playin' on the radio.

IMHO....country has a distinctive sound that differs from the distinctive sound of yesteryears country and in 20 years I'll probably be the one hollerin' "THIS AIN'T COUNTRY!!!"

Eric
http://www.soundclick.com/ericharris

Wasted space?
Wasted subject?

I don't think any discussion of current interest is a waste.

In case you didn't notice, two of the biggest hits in country last year...
Alan Jackson w/Buffet-"Five O'clock Somewhere", and Toby's-"I Love This Bar".

About as traditional country sounding as you can get. According to all my sources in the biz, there's a swing in motion back to that traditional sound.

As far as 40 years ago, I hope it doesn't get back to that. Country went through some growing pangs up untill the 70's and it found it's nitch. With Waylon, Willie, and a host of others that followed over the next 20 years.

It wasn't till the 90's, with a change in the corporate record companys staffing, and their desire to create a more lucrative market by attracting the teenage audience, that pop (or modern) country evolved.

As far as the stuff I've listened to.

Poor arrangements, terrible recordings, bad vocals. If you get past all that and listen to the lyrics, most of them lack too.

I guess they just want to put it out there, I would be embarrassed.

Hi all,
I should mention that all of the Artists mentioned above are still in the catalogs and are still selling. If they weren't they would disappear pretty quickly. Each Artist today will of course have their own style as no Artist today can re-capture the sound from the past. With computerized sound tracks, all sounding like everything else there is no distinctive sound on current product to speak of. And a lot of it is pretty bad. That discussion has been going on now for several years. If it is good it will probably sell for a long time. If it is bad who is going to buy it? Practically all of the great Pop Releases as well as Country Releases from the 50's are still in the catalogs and selling. And some of the Music being released today will be selling 50 years from now. I don't thing anyone is trying to go back to the 50's, just hear some of that Classic Country on the Radio on a regular basis. Good music will always be good music, krap will always be krap, no matter what genre it is in. There has been stuff released and played on Major Labels that not only should have never made it into the recording studio, let alone out on to the radio. Back in the 50's 85 percent of the music was good, today 15 percent of it is passable, the rest usless.

E Harris

"in the 50's and 60's how many kinds of music were on the radio..two ?"

NO..We had Rock and Roll we had Rhythm and blues we had jazz we had standards we had folk music we had bluegrass we had country and western we had show tunes for crissakes !

It was much more diverse then than it is now.

Hell..you could listen to the radio for 5 minutes and tell what part of the country you were in by the music on the radio...

Pop music playlists in California were way different than playlists in Alabama or New York...

Nahhh

Today everything is the same..then....we had real choices.

Bob Young

Bob is right, though I don't go back quite as far as he does...

Now we have giant corporations (*cough* Clear Channel, etc...) playing stadardized playlists all across the country with no regard to regional tastes. In short, radio today sucks. Back when a lot more stations were independent, they could tailor their playlists to their local markets. These days, you can pretty much forget it.

I'm not against large corporations in theory but when they try to make everyone conform to the same crap, it gets old. Thank goodness for the internet providing access to so many different kinds of music.

There have only ever been two sorts of music for me.
The stuff I like, and the stuff I don't.
And I call it what the heck I wanna in spite of the label claims it is.
And yep. Thank goodness for the internet and the writers who fill it so well.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

We got two kinds o' music here... country AND western!

[This message has been edited by RobertK (edited 02-20-2004).]

Oh, my! In the early 60's, radio was infinitely more varied than it is today. I remember you could listen to the radio for a half hour and hear the Beatles, the Animals, the Supremes, James Brown, Dean Martin, The Beach Boys, Bobby Vinton, and the Singing Nun...without changing the station! In my little corner of the world, we had stations that did Top 40, jazz and standards, country, bluegrass, classical, religious, polka (for heaven's sake), and talk (yes, radio talked way back then). It was cool.

Told you lot Esperance West Aussie is just a few short steps to heaven. We get all them on one station down here most of the time.
They also have a FM station which does the now stuff, but the AM wing does the play 'em al thing.
One of the regular DJs from the AM got borrowed by the Fm station and he told me it was like 3 months in hell for him.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Everyone is always complaining about radio programming these days, but I bet most of you still listen to it. That is the reason radio programming in the US is like it is, because people DO listen to it. The stations don't care if you like it, just as long as you DO listen and hear their advertising. If their listeners dropped off significantly, then radio would change its programming.

If you really want commercial radio to change, quit listening to it. Tell your friends to quit listening.

Capitalism is the most democratic economic system there is, because every time you spent a dollar or withhold spending a dollar, you are casting a vote! If you don't like something, quit voting for it. Nothing gets someone's attention faster than a decrease in their income.

This goes for other things as well. If you don't like oil wars, quit buying gas, or at least significantly reduce your gas comsumption (I've cut mine by 25 % in the last year and 45 % since 1999, without getting a new vehicle.) If you don't want more nuclear power plants and waste depositories in Nevada, quit using electricity or at least significantly reduce your electric use (My bills average less than $20 a month.) If you want more solar power, install it on your house (something I presently experimenting with).

Too many musicians and liberals are all talk and no action. They refuse to see how they are contributing to the problems they condemn. To them, all the world's problems are someone else's fault. They love George Bush because it gives them someone to blame for THEIR sins and deflects attention from THEIR behavior.

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Stone Marmot
www.stonemarmot.com
Stone Marmot on Soundclick
Alternative pop-rock music:
Definitely rock, somewhat pop, but a bit more experimental.

OK now.......

Can you all see me turning away from that little right wing pot-shot........

Look now....here I go.......

I'm doing it...I'm ignoring it.....

I'm so freakin' proud of myself.....

Mike Dunbar...are you looking at this ?
Brian.....how about it ?

Ahhhh....just one more thing for me to love about myself....restraint !

It's a beautiful day !

Bob Young

Bob,

I never expected to read you and "restraint" in the same post. Except perhaps, "They removed bob's restraints and let him have supervised recreation time."

All the Best,
Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Folks:

"Genre" basically means what box they gonna put you in in the record store. Most folks want to be in the "country" box because it's the biggest, even if nobody can exactly say any more what "country" is. If you're young, pretty, and comfortable taking off your clothes in front of lots of people, "pop" may be an option. (Sorry.) The other boxes are better-defined, but kinda small--they don't get as many customers.

When I played with the Dodson Drifters, we called our style "bluegrass punk." We felt we had to call it something, and also felt that being able to be pigeonholed (even if no one was exactly sure what either the pigeon or the hole exactly looked like) helped us get gigs. We probably would've ended up in the "country" bin at the record store no matter what we called ourselves--but one of our two "hits" that got airplay was picked up by a *jazz* program, not country. Go figure.

Being "country" these days is kind of like being a "Democrat"--so all-inclusive it's meaningless. I, too, call what I do "country music"; if people want to know what I mean, they're going to have to listen. Then they can call me whatever they want, as long as they call me for gigs.

Joe

Excellent control Bob!!

Heck. That wasn't control.
Bob's just very tired today is all.
Graham ( I got a million and one, make that two of them) H

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Thanks Harry !

I "preciate it !

Bob(breatning slowly and deeply while contemplating my navel)Young