JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Another ASCAP Controversy

I think the difference is that the playwright isn't selling product other than the play.

People aren't going to go out and purchase the play to take home !

So...yeah... I think it's apples and oranges...

Paying a writer to use his script is not the same as paying a songwriter to use his song.

Plus we're not asking the actors to pay individually for the right to read the words.

You know...there's not one simple answer to this...
I'm just taking the performers side...
It's what I've been my whole life..
You'd have to expect me to see things this way..

I know what it is to write a song
And I know what it is to make a living singing the songs of others...

I don't see any good reason why money should be changing hands one way or the other

bob

bob,

In my bookcase here at home, I've got Arthur Miller's "Death of a Salesman." It's also been a play, a movie, a teleplay on network tv, it's been on cable, it's been on pay per view, it can be rented at a video store, and it can be bought as a VCR and a DVD. It can be taken home in several forms. Is there another difference?

Mike




------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

Bob,

Your logic would only work if it was easy, possible and realistic for a songwriter to force, without consent or compensation, an "artist" to perform their song. They can't. Thus the 50/50 premise fails.

Brian

Well Mike...

first of all...

I'm not gonna compare Arthur Miller and Death of a Salesmna to what we'
re talking about...
That's a phenomenal success and completely out of the range of experience of some little cover band playing a corner bar.

Plus..the situation is made more different by the fact that there are 3d and 4th parties involved..
It's a production compamy that secures the rights to perform the play and they are generally paying for all the expenses, the venue, the actors etc.

I do believe it's apples and oranges.

You've been in the circus a long time, long enough to know tha twhat applies to the Beatles and their experience does not apply to Joe Tuna gigging at the mile high cafe this friday night !

Bob

Brian...

I'm sorry....your point is lost to me....

I don't get what you're saying..

Bob (am I dense ?) Young

Also...since you and Mike are so comfortable with this premise..maybe somebody could tell me where the Hell I was when this came to be accepted ?
I never had to do it or ever heard of anyone having to do it in all my years in show business.
Is this general practice ?
If I go to a bar in Chicago tonight and see a cover band, are they really writing down a list of all the songs they play and turning it in to someone ?
If I go to The Old Town School of Folk Music and hear someone singing songs by Ani DiFranco or some other current artist, are they logging those in as well ?

Bob (am I dense ?) Young

Speaking historically Bob.
I once asked you if you had the legals done on one of your early pieces that was built around a medley of 50's tunes, so I could legally play it on Roar Radio, as without it being okayed by the varios copyright owners I could not do so.
As I recall, you thanked me for bringing the ask up, said you hadn't thought of that angle and took the song off the site.
Just maybe you have some thinking left to do on this one Cobber.
Just as we all have.
Don't hurt ya self now.
Toward the subject also.
The APRA lady has been back to me and said the Liciencing louts now have the links to this and hopefully can come up with a more learend summing up of the issue than any of us eem to have right now.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Sorry Cobber...

that's completely unrelated..

The reason I tok it down was because you reminded me that the site clearly states that material like that should not be posted.

that was why I took it down..

that has NOTHING to do with what we're discussing here.

And, frankly, the fact that some of you have come to accept a situation that is, in my eyes, completely and inarguably wrong headed, does not diminsh my respect or personal feelings about you.
Being incredibly wrong is just that, nothing more.

I don't have any more "thinking" to do on this..
My perspective is based on a lifetime of experience in just the situation we're discussing...
I believe I know what's right here..
It may not be the way things are being done...
But I believe it's right..

I can't see me changing my view on this one..

You guys are certainly entitled to view me as the dunder-head...that's OK.

Like I said...if songwriters want money for their songs being played, let'em spend like the entertainers do.
Instead of just buying a new pencil now and then, buy wardrobe, buy a PA, buy a van to schlep the gear, buy gas for the van, buy the guitars and/or keyboards, buy the PA, buy the amps, and now say goodbye to the family while you go out and try to sell yourself and the songs.

And you expect, after all that, for this guy to send you an extra two bucks ?

Not in my mind, Cobber...I say...Get off yer arse and earn it yourself !
Songwriters invest nothing but time and a few scraps pf paper...it's the entertainer that does the work !

Like I said, and continue to say...cut the entertainer out of the loop and see how far the friggin' songs get !

Remember, this is a songwriter saying this to you..
Someone who dreams of that day when these little songs become cash-bearing.
But would I ever accept $ from some poor working bastard who's trying to feed himself and his kin by playing a few songs in a dump somewhere.

No....Never !

And if that makes me look like I think I'm better than those that would accept it...

I can live with that !

Bob

bob,

So are you saying a small venue should not be charged for the performance of art, but a large one should?

Mike


------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

Mike...

I know you're a real smart guy...

Trust me, I am too....

I've reread what I've said and apparently you are much more clever than I, because I can't find one thing that would lead you to ask that question.

No...I 'm not saying that..

and I believe you KNOW I'm not saying that !

I think it sould be clear that since I don't feel the songwriter is entitled to any piece of a live performance that I'm referring to ALL venues.

And, yes, anticipating a point, I think that music in a theatrical production is an exception.
While you're concerned with Arthur Miller, I'm concerned with people who have to worry about paying their bills after dealing with the expense of being a performing artist.

I'm not going to "play" debate on this...

Mary (my wife ) says (and I agree with her)..In these economic times, songwriters should be making it as easy as possible to get their songs heard in the hope of getting peopke to buy them.
Instead, it sounds like they're more interested in getting a pawltry couple of bucks from people who can't afford to pay."

the fact is that any money that anybody pays to the songwriter will come out of the money that should be be going to the performer.
The venue owner will justify cutting the money he pays to the performing artist..because his "overhead" is going up

Mike..you CANNOT say you don't know that.
You've been on stages as long as I have .

This is wrong Mike... Play fair and be honest, not clever to try and make a point.

It may be the way it is,although nobody, including a guy that I saw play "cover" tunes at a recent appearance at OTSofM (wonder if those got logged in somewhere resulting in $ going to the songwriters) has told me, "yes Bob..this is the way things are being done today"

So, if that's the way it is...well...fine....

That's what I call songwriters cutting their own throats...

Apparently sometime in the not too distant past, some greedly lawyer type got some songwriters together and said..
"Hey....waddya think of this ?"

And the dumb'ass short sighted songwriters went for it...

Well....that makes 'em stupid..

Not right !

Mike...if you're gonna post flip responses to my posts, please don't.
This really is heartfelt on my part, and I'd rather be ignored than passed off.

I would suggest that since I've invested my whole life in music, that my opinions on this issue may just be valid, and at least worthy of some degree of respect.

Bob Young

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 12-15-2003).]

Bob,

Thank you for calling me clever. Sorry if it bothers you, I'll stop.

Mike



------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

Bob,

You must be reading a different posting and connecting it to me. I've never supported the concept of writing down and submitting playlists. That's Grahams thing and I think it's both impossible and ridiculous to keep track of. I am the one who said I don't believe the PRO's have any programs to even handle something like that.

My point is that you said that songwriters benefit because you play their songs and that leads to sales.. thus it's a 50/50 split. But it's not. It would only be a 50/50 split if the songwriters could force the artists, without compensation, to perform/record their songs. Then it would be apples to apples. Artists could perform songs written by others at will.. and Songwriters could compell artists to perform their songs at will. But it doesn't and can never work that way.. thus it isn't ever going to be a 50/50 equal deal. Performers can pick and choose at will what songs they will play. And performers don't have to compensate the writers for those performances.. but the VENUES do. That fee they pay might mean that each performer during the year gets 2 dollars less per show due to the fee, but that's fair.

If you want to play a Taylor Guitar at your shows, someone has to pay Taylor and buy the guitar for you to use. If you want to play a night full of James Taylor songs, someone has to buy the rights to perform the songs you use. That's fair. You can choose NOT to use a Taylor guitar.. and you can choose not to play James Taylor songs. But if you DO choose.. someone should pay for both.

Brian

PS: I also think Graham's premise of people paying 2 dollars per song is ridiculous. That is far more than is reasonable for a performance in a small club. The fees should be based on audience/venue size. Perhaps they can do that in Australia (not sure what the value of a dollar is there, maybe that's part of the confusion) but in the US that would be an excessive fee. 1.91 per night for unlimited live music seems very reasonable to me.

Ok Brian...I see what you're saying...sorry...

I don't think it's a 50/50 split....

If I said or implied that, I was mispeaking..

What I meant to say is that it's a partnership...it requires both sides..

I don't know, nor would I venture to guess how the duties split percentage wise...the point I'm trying to make (apparently not very well !)
Is that the songwriter cannot exist without the performer..
It is the performer that displays the songwriters wares in the marketplace where listeners can decide to acquire the songs (if they are able)
Now if you respond by saying "Yes, but if the songwriter hadn't supplied the performer with something to sing there would be nothing for the entertainer to do !"
True enough, and the second half of my theory....both sides need each other and for one (the songwriter) to demand payment from the performer is, in my eyes just wrong.

I think I'm right when I say that if the songwriter can expect payment from the artist (or the venue) for the performance of a song, then the artist (or venue) is certainly entitled to a percentage of any sales initiated by the performance.

How do we figure that stuff out ?

We Don't...THAT"S why nobody should be paying anybody !!!

I truly am not here just to argue...
I think this is really wrong-headed, and I'm amazed that Mike, who has slaved on stages as much or more than I have, has such a different view.

Bob

Don't fret Bob. What a person thinks is not a factor in my assexxment of friendship or otherwise.
That they do think at all, is the improtant thing for me in that area.
Now let me think.
Someone hears you sing a writer's song they have never heard before and askes where they can buy a copy.
You tell them it is one writen by Willie Nelson and on a Cd put out by various artists called Save Willie From The Poor House and they go buy it.
Now when the publisher of that CD decided to put that track and all others they filled in the licience application form. Told the PRO what tracks, how many CDs was in the run and the planned retail price.
From There the Pro figures their bill, they pay it and get the licience.
Meantime the PRO also sends Willie's cheque for that straight off to him.
It's all been paid for. Your punter going to buy a copy isn't going to add a cent to willie's cop. He has already got his share of the recording income to him.
What he hasn't got is his dues from you for your doing it live.
Okay. you do it along with others live down here.
Say at the Hole In The Wall because that is one I have a pretty good idea of what gets paid out for gigs.
You and your band get say, $1600 bucks plus accommadation, fodder and probably a bar tab which may or may not have a limit.
You sing say 36 songs in a 3 hour gig.
I make that around $44-50 per song.
Don't think it is too much to ask that the numbers man for your group fills in the playlist and sends it off so Willie and the others can get their $2,00 per song which has aleady been made available to them because all venues using any form of music must have APRA affilliation and APRA does the recipricol to all the other PROs.
Heck. It is $72 that is already there. The artist doesn't have to spend a penny.
We may nevre agree on this one Cobber, but that won't stop me thinking, and asking.
That is how I got to be so damn smart in the first place.
And tommorrow I expect to be even smarter.
Yeah I know. Doesn't seem possible does it?
Graham



------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Brian. The fees are based on the stated statistics of each venue down here and all venues using entertainment must comply.
The venue I used in the example is one I know to have a capacity of 253 Public health and safety figure.
How many gigs they average, if they have a juke box, how many TV sets they have (they have to apply for a seperate on the day l9icience if they want to screen a vidio of some event from a legal scource.)
I also believe venues understate the stats to lessen their yearly dues.
Just as I know singer/songwriters over state the originals they do so as to get a few extra bucks from the playlist returns.
It does work as best as well as any system can be expected to under the current conditions, taking the greedy nature of writer, artists and venue owners into account.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Bob,

But the artist and venue DO immediately benefit from the performance financially. The venue makes money on beer sales and the artist gets paid for the gig and can also sell CD's. That's the beauty of how it works.. everyone makes money if the venue pays the performance royalty and books the artist. There's money all around. If no liscense is paid for, the artist and venue benefit and the songwriter gets zero. If the artist at least recorded the cover song, then they would have compensated for each mechanical copy of the CD at least, but we both know it's rare for an entire set list of covers to be included on an artist CD.

Brian

Graham,

I just can't imagine a small coffee shop with a folk artist playing 5 hours of cover songs could afford the extra 100 bucks a night AND still pay the artist something. Here in the US, this venue is whining about 1.91 per night.. I can't even imagine if it were 50 times that amount!

Brian

bob,

Yes, I've slaved on many stages and I've written many songs. I've also had buddies who have written songs that are some of the most popular "bar" songs of all time, I'll bet you have too. I'd rather see them, or their families, get the money than have the venues erode the current performance rights.

I think the venues need to pay. If you think it's trickle-on economics, so be it.

I think the venues need to pay both the pickers and the writers, they pay the soft drink guy, they pay their liquor license, let them pay the piper, otherwise, don't put in music. If they are going to use the cost of a BMI license as an excuse to lower my fee, they'll use something else as an excuse next week. Let them try to pay less for beer.

As far as the problem of getting the pay going to the writers who actually wrote the songs performed on any given night, it sure seems like it's an unwieldly task, but that doesn't mean the clubs should get off the hook. As technology gets better, we might be able to figure out equitable distribution, but not if we give up our rights.

If some clubs that don't care enough about music to pay for it go under, maybe the ones who do care will be more successful. The best gigs I've had have been with entrepeneurs who like musicians.

When the music business is tough for so many reasons, that's not the time for musicians to trim away at other musicians' (even pencil wielding ones') means---that's the time for us to stick together. We're all in this (fill in the blank.)

As I've said before, I agree with Brian. The PRO's could do a better job educating the venues and the general public. A couple of little venues are getting out ahead of the PRO's in the media battle. A little more money spent on this might go a long way.

By the way, bob, I tend to write and debate cleverly. I know this is unfair. Did it piss you off? Then I succeeded. If not, I'll keep trying.

All the Best,
Mike



------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

Bob, police and fireman and teachers are paid wage to perform services deemed necessary by governmental entities with tax-levying (and RAISING!) authority.

Songwriters are not. So they organized ASCAP. A Chicago guy oughta understand, if not agree, with people organizing to get paid for their labor and improve their lot in life. Was that greed? Or perhaps you're not as left-wing bleeding-heart as you told me?

If not for some songs (NOT all, I know) that others have written that you used to start the new family into a house and a car, you'd have started your career doing either stand-up or mime. Juggling? Prestidigitation?

Unless you could drum up an audience with rhythmic log thumping and chanting.

And to all a good night! Ed Bertrand

------------------
edx.iuma.com www.soundclick.com/40LOVE www.soundclick.com/EdX


[This message has been edited by ed323 (edited 12-15-2003).]

And nether can I Brian. It doesn't happen.
A venue as you state would , going by the figures I got from the venue I quote and qoing a guestimate based on figure of your average coffee shop, they would be lucky if they had to pay a hundred bucks a year.
Every venue in Aus pays a pro rata yearly fee, APRA call it the Umbrella fee I believe.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Mike...

the "clever" remark was pissy...

I apologize..

It was motivated by frustration stemming from the knowledge that in battle of wits, I'm going to lose to you every time.
Your thinking is more organized, and you prsent your case effectively....

I just get emotional and start hand-grnading my case....

But the facts in this seem inarguable to me..
That's why I find it mystifying that you, who parallel me in so many ways in professional background, could be in such complete disagreement.

Honestly and truly, I would love to be able to see what I'm missing !

And Ed.....I think I'm probably as far left as I think I am...this isn't an issue of left and right for me..it's right and wrong.

It's apparent that nobodys mind is gonna get changed on this one..not mine or Ed's or Grahams Or Brians or Mikes or Trumans or ANYBODY>

I just want you all to know that I'm vehement about this because I think it's bad for both sides.

I think it's a hardship for the musicians because the venue will always pass the cost onto them, and bad fpr the songwriters morally as they learn to take money from the wrong people.

And one more time....will somebody PLEASE tell me when all this happenend>
And is it happening everywhere ?

I say again, I have never ever heard of submitting lists like this.
I never did it and never heard of anyone else doing it.

Thanks

Bob

Bob..

Where did I ever suggest someone submit a list for anything? Seriously.. I keep saying the opposite.. but you keep missing it somehow. Lists don't work and are unrealistic to expect.

Brian

Brian..

You used (as an example) a guy playing a night of James Taylor songs..

Without a "list" how is anybody gonna know he played a night of James Taylor songs so poor James can get his $

Bob

Exactly: you need the list. It won't cost the performer nor the venue anything - the venue is already paying. It is so the fees get paid to the guy who wrote the music actually performed rather than it all going to the record company that bought time on the Clear Channel radio stations.

If we can figure out a way to make the reporting easy enough so the small venues can do it.

For example, would you object to swiping a magstripe card through the bar's Point-of-sale terminal on the way out the door?

At last. someone who understands the situation sort of.
Big and small venues alike do it here PD. No distinction. Just the smaller the venue's entertainment envolvement and capacity, the smaller the fee.
By the way Bob. Toward your ask. It started around 1850 in france, and the rest of thinking communities decided it worked and was fair so followed suit.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

bob

You give 100 songwriters the same topic to write on and you'll get 100 different songs. If one of those songs proves to be a smash hit,you will find hundreds if not thousands of singers that can do a good job of singing it,all a little differently.I believe that writer deserved his/her royalties if others use that song to make money for themselves.

Anyone performing these songs live does not pay themselves for using the song,I don't believe the club owner pays a per song levy either,he pays a fee for the year based on many things according to his establishment. All these fees go into a pool and the amount of plays reported over a period of time is devided into this pool of money,this determines what each song is worth.The less plays reported will mean those that do get reported will get more than they should because they will be getting the share belonging to those that don't get reported. Much the same as radio royalties,those that don't get picked up in the PROs sampling will get nothing which will inflate the share of those that do get picked up.It is unfair but that is the system as I understand it.I don't know who's responsibility it is to get that list of songs sent to the PROs but if it dosen't get sent,the songwriters that wrote the songs that you love to sing,will not get paid,you will,the club owner will but the songwriters will not.That is unfair.You will get paid in dollars,the songwriters will get paid in pennies if he/she gets paid at all.

Bob,
I think I see something you may have missed.
I believe our discussion about what they are doing in Australia, combined with suggesting what - *might* be done here- has you assuming some things are already going on, when in fact they are not.
Nobody is being forced to submit playlists and such here...yet the venues are being forced to pay ASCAP, etc.. which is where the topic started.

The conversation led to that of ASCAP accountability as to where the collected money actually goes, which led to further ideas as to how the proper people might collect royalties due. (whether impossible or not).
So..there's not as much going on as I believe you interpretted, yet plenty going on.

By the way... I appreciate your passion for what you believe in. I don't have to agree with every aspect in order to respect the hell out of ya.
As you (or somebody) mentioned in a previous post, I'd personally love to hear from somebody who has received a royalty payment from ASCAP or BMI, etc... how much it is, and how large the body of work is that they have registered with said PRO.
As some may have properly assumed about me, I'm quite the anarchist when it comes to the government (or any other body) forcefully collecting money. I want to know where the money goes..every damned dime.

-gary

bob,

Nobody's right or wrong on this. People apply terms like "right" and "fair" and "moral" to make themselves feel better about their ideas, and to convince others to agree with them. The few times when people are actually "right" or "moral," tend to be personal experiences, when these experiences are used as weapons, they are corrupted. As to "fair," well, there's no such thing.

There is what is, and there is what we would like to be. We, if we are sane, all go about trying to deal with what is and create what we would like to be. If you get your way, the person who lives by wit alone, the non-performing pencil wielding songwriter, loses potential income. If Graham gets his way, the performance revenue gets distributed to the responsible songwriter. As I see it, we in the U.S. are in a struggle to increase revenues to musicians---revenues which have been lost to a changed paradigm. I'd like to see us move toward the Australian model, but in the meantime, just because our model is flawed, giving up our rights won't fix it. If you get a flat tire, you don't give away the car.

I hope some PRO representatives are reading this thread. They can see how the struggle is percieved. Already, they are representing artists, which is like herding cats, and dealing with club owners, which is like herding sharks. I'm sure their decision to play hardball has been thoughtful, but I'd like to see it balanced with persuasion.

Mike


------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

Isn't it a bummer when we have to suggest force is needed for people to pay their dues to their peers for using their stuff.
Just doesn't fit into that all in together thing to me.
More like all in it for what we can screww the other bloke for to me.
I e-mailed ASCAP suggesting they should trot their frames in here for some mutual enightenment.
For those who done know, here is a bit about when ASAP got rolling and why, and by who.
Forgot something Cobber. The take the song down thing is the same, as Soundclick is a public forum and unless it is a cover that the performer has applied and paid for and been okayd to record it commercially and so has the right to shop it in any medium, it is exactly the same as performing in public as regard to copyright entitlements and resposabilities.
Graham

How You Join
You can join as a writer, a publisher, or both if you meet the eligibility requirements.

To become a writer member, you must be the writer or co-writer of a musical composition or a song that has been:

commercially recorded (CD, record, tape, etc.);
or, performed publicly in any venue licensable by ASCAP (club, live concert, symphonic concert or recital venue, college or university, etc.);
or, performed in any audio visual or electronic medium (film, television, radio, Internet, cable, pay-per-view, etc.);
or, published and available for sale or rental.

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

[This message has been edited by Graham (edited 12-16-2003).]

Here is some detailed info on how BMI computes what is being performed. All this is from www.bmi.com. There is a lot more on their web site - I have just selected a few paragraphs that bear most on our discussion.

For the other side of the fees, I looked up the way BMI calculates the annual fee for an "Eating and Drinking Establishment" with live music 2-4 nights per week, performed by more than one musician, same group not performing more than 5 times in one month. The amount is $3.80 per occupant per year. So if your night club holds 100 people (they use the max allowed by the fire code) you would owe $380 per year. If you only had a single musician, one or fewer nights per week, it would be $250/yr.

Provided you did not have a cover charge, have dancing, or have other sources of music such as a juke box, radio, DJ, etc. All those add to the fee. The form is kind of like an Income Tax form. The annual minimum is $277.

That is just for food establishments. Each business type has its own schedule. All the forms are online at www.bmi.com. For the gory details for food establishments, check out http://www.bmi.com/licensing/forms/ede.pdf

Thanks PD. Boy that one looks unwieldly though.
May have to go read the rest of it to figure it.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Bob,

Again.. NEVER have I said there needs to be a list. What I have ALWAYS said is that there needs to a PRO license fee paid so that writers are compensated. Period. How you can keep reading post after post where I've never said or suggested keeping a written list was needed or realistic is bizarre!

How many times do I need to say it POINT BLANK: Lists don't work. No one could keep them accurate. No one could enforce them. No one wants to do it. No one WILL do it for the average little show in a coffee shop. Can anyone imagine how ridiculous it would be for the PRO's to receive lists written on napkins, without proper contact/date info, without being readable, without any idea who the writers and artists actually are, without knowing if your PRO (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC) even has rights to that particular version of the song "I Love You" and so on?

Anyone thinking that in a million years a hand written list will EVER be effective or possible to track live performances needs a major reality check. Is that STILL confusing to you Bob? The blanket fee IS the way to go until there is some type of technological advance that takes human error, laziness and dishonesty out of the equation. That is likely coming for Radio, TV, other media and the Internet, but I don't see it on the horizon yet for small venues and terribly unmotivated artists and venue owners.

Brian

Brian:

Yes, writers get compensated under the present system. But not the right writers. No matter what songs you perform in that little coffee shop, Shania Twain (BMI) is going to get some of the fee, because she's got a song at #13 on the Billboard Country chart this week.

I agree it is important to protect the whole system of copyrights and not let it lapse by not collecting the blanket fee. But the present distribution system is not fair to the unknown songwriter.

[This message has been edited by pd (edited 12-16-2003).]

PD,

But that's a different issue and argument.

1. There SHOULD be a blanket license fee.

2. There SHOULD be a fair and accurate system to distribute those fees.

Two separate issues. Because one is flawed, it doesn't mean the other should be excluded. Both need work.. but it's not the concern of the venues where the money goes because what they are paying for is the RIGHT to have ANY music performed in their venue. They aren't making direct payments to artists. That's the job of the PRO's. And writers (for better or worse)have assigned the right to collect that fee to their particular PRO. The second issue is between the writers and those they have put in charge of collecting their fees for. If they have problems, they need to either A: force change/improvement or B: assign their rights to a different PRO going forward.

It seems some venues (and even artists) are making the same lame argument that file theft people make about illegally downloading songs. "Since the labels screw the artists, we're not going to pay the labels (and thus the same artists) either." It's BS for illegal file sharers and it's BS for venues.

Brian

Brian...

If you want to play a Taylor Guitar at your shows, someone has to pay Taylor and buy the guitar for you to use. If you want to play a night full of James Taylor songs, someone has to buy the rights to perform the songs you use. That's fair. You can choose NOT to use a Taylor guitar.. and you can choose not to play James Taylor songs. But if you DO choose.. someone should pay for both.

You say "Someone has to buy the rights to perform the songs you use"

Please tell me (calmly might be nice) how to determine which "songs you use" without making a (I'll use the word that seems to frighten you) LIST !

Those are your words , Brian....

I hope you're little rant has made you feel better......
Disagreement really is a problem for you isn't it.
As you grow older, you'll find being wrong less hurtful....( I hope)

Bob

Bob..

Exactly.. and the person who buys the rights to the James Taylor songs is the venue by purchasing the 3 PRO blanket license fees which covers not only James Taylor, but everyone else who's ever established that they want compensation for their works being performed. That's the beauty of blank fees.

There were suggestions being made that it was unfair for an artist to have to compensate a writer for using their song because s/he might be promoting the song itself. My point was everyone should be compensated for providing the raw material that someone else voluntarily chooses to use to forward their own business goals. In this case, just as someone pays for the guitar you use (unless you created the guitar yourself), someone should also pay for the songs you use (unless you created the songs yourself). If you use a Taylor guitar, someone needs to pay for that guitar. If you use James Taylor songs, someone needs to pay for that. The only realistic and workable system anyone has yet come up with is a blanket fee, so as to NOT cause absurd workloads and loss of time and resources for everyone involved. The fair system has been a blanket fee paid so that no records or convoluted system needs to be in place. The burden (which is separate) then falls on the writer and their chosen representative, to get that money to the right people, leaving the artist and venue free to focus on THEIR business.

If you read my posts throughout this entire discussion, you'll see I've made that same point each time.

There has been suggestion in recent posts that no one should pay anyone. I am suggesting that everyone should get paid (or at least have the choice), especially if they aren't a part of the actice decision making process of the business deal. If an artist wants to play free, great, they can choose to do that. If a venue wants to give away beer, great, they can choose to do that. But in this scenario, the songwriter isn't part of the decision making process.. they aren't being asked if they want to do give it away.. it's just being taken for free UNLESS the fee is being paid.

Still confused?

Brian

Brian...

thank you for clarifying...

Yesw...I do see what you are saying...

Now...

My song "A Woman Like Me" has been in Nan Masons act for 10 years.
It is published thru Jack Kramer Music, a BMI publishing company.
Nan probably does 100 dates a year...she is a cabaret singer and works all over the country.
I'm sure she has worked many places licensed by BMI.
How come I've never gotten any $
The fact is, that I would find it immoral and wrong to receive any money for the public performance of my song, but nevertheless, the system you encourage is in place and has been in place for as long as I've been in the business.
Can I see a show of hands from any of the writers in here who, like me, have PRO affiliations, who have received any $ for the public performances of their songs.

I repeat what I've said...
We should be happy that an artist chooses to do our song.
We should not expect to be paid for that performance.

Period !

If we want to be paid we should go out and perform !

Period !

If the artist records our song...THAT"S when we get paid !

Period !

If the artist performs our song somewhere and people go out and buy OUR Cd, cos" that song is on it, then we, morally should be paying the artist !

Period !

At a time when live venues are closing or eliminating live music policies, we should not be promoting more fees to raise thei overhead.
That is ridiculous...
We should be making it as cheap and easy as possible to get artists in there performing our songs !

Period !

You're headed toweards a time when joints will just pipe in music, maybe from satellite radio stations and say to Hell with live music, it's too much bother !

You greedy songwriter types will have won !

Congratulations !

And my guess is that ASCAP and BMI still will not have sent people like me any money as our songs get played.

Brian..you are championing a system that has proved itself unworkable.

Whose side are you on ?

Bob Young

Bob,

If you think BMI is doing such a bad job, why did you give them the rights to represent and collect for your songs? Sounds like your beef is with the people YOU chose to do that job. If you aren't going directly to them to fix the issue, why are you complaining?

Ironically, you're saying you don't WANT them to collect your money.. so why sign up? Is it okay if they collect money for radio and TV airplay? What if radio stations have to run even MORE ad's to cover the costs of those license fees? Guess we should give THEM a pass from paying as well right? And of course the record labels are going to produce less copies of the CD's because they have to pay you mechanical fees, so I guess we should give THEM a pass too... so let's do away with the Harry Fox Agency as well.

In fact, if every artist and songwriter ALWAYS worked entirely for free at all times, all those who make money off of them would make even MORE money and probably would use this free labor and creative product even more.. gosh.. that sounds like Utopia! You and the illegal file thieves have a lot in common I guess.

It's bizarre that you think some businesses should get a free pass, and others should not. It's also odd that you would presume to give up all the PRO blanket license earnings that writers and publishers have gotten over the years, while still expecting other people to pay similar fees (like radio licenses) or mechanical fees via the Harry Fox Agency. Why make the distinction? Because you aren't directly getting paid, no one else should either?

My friend Alan O'Day gets performance royalties for his songs Rock and Roll Heaven, Angie Baby and Undercover Angel. I guess he should just give up this income because Bob Young things he isn't entitled. My friend Harold Payne also gets enough income from his PRO to allow him to be a full time performer. We have a lot of members in ASCAP that have gotten discretionary income from the program that pays writers when they can demonstrate airplay/live performances but didn't get picked up on a survey. Should they give up what might be their only income from that work because you say so?

Of course, I guess since Joe Smith in Omaha thinks all artists should play live for free because that promotes their album sales, that YOU shouldn't be compensated for live shows anymore either right? Or does your opinion have more weight than his for some reason?

There's a system in place. It's a system which hundreds of thousands of writers have signed on to as the best way to represent their interests in collecting reasonable compensation for their work. None of them was forced to do so, including you. Rather than having the government put a system into place that WOULD require excessive bookkeeping by venues and artists, our elected officials determined a blanket fee system was the best shot at being fair to all parties. I know artists/writers who make their living off of their earnings from the PRO's. But you've decided they don't deserve this income right? Yet for some reason, you're affiliated with a PRO?

You are welcome to take income due you for your work or pass it up. No one cares if you do that for yourself in any way. How about not making that decision for everyone else?

Brian

Sorry Brian...

Misrepresenting me and what I say will not work !

I did not sign with BMI to get paid by poor schmucks trying to make a living in bars.

I signed up because I was told that my songs could not get played on the radio unless I was signed up.

Have you got that ?
Lets see how you twist that into me saying something other than that !

You said you know writers who make their livingf off PROs.

You DO NOT know writers who make any kind of mentionable income from their songs being played in live venues by cover bands.

If you say you do...I will say you are "misinformed"

I'm very happy for your "friend" Alan O'Day...ANSWER ME PLEASE !!!

How come I'm not getting money for my songs being performed in public if the system in place is working ?

Just answer that..Come on....

yOU'RE BLOWING SMOKE UP PEOPLES BUTTS, bRIAN.

THE SYSTEM IN PLACE does not work !

iT NEVER HAS !

It appears that what you REALLY know about the machinations of this business and how they affect REAL people is miniscule.

You claim to represent the interests of Just Plain Folks.

Well...I'm Just Plain Folks...

Answer my question...
If the system in place is getting your "friend" Alan O'Day paid for public performances of his works...
Then where are my checks ?

Granted...if I got the checks I'd rip them up cos' it's dirty money...
But we're talking about a system you claim is working !

Bullfeathers !

I'm still waiting for ANYONE in JPF to chime in here and tell us how much $ they've gotten for having their songs performed in public.
Not recordings mind you..but live performances.

Sorry Brian....you're not making a case for your position at all.

Those BMI and ASCAP stickers have been on the doors of joints for 50 years or more....
Apparently (according to you) your "friends" have found a way to get some of the money collected...

Well...anybody else??????

Oh yeah...I forgot...you want to see to it that James Taylor gets his cut....
And Metallica ?...how about them...
God knows they can use the cash....

This is ridiculous

Bob

Bob. I have already said I got my first royalty cheque for live performance of my songs was in 1999 the year I joined.
It was $95 Australian , not that the amount is important, me not being either a frequent performer, or having a lot of songs out there being done.
Other point is. Considering the fact the song the Amy lady sings is in a publisher's catalouge, I am surprised then pubisher hasn'r made sure the song is being play listed, as that is what they publish for.
To get half of whatever the writers in their bag are entitled to.
Even when the writer is happy for anybody to play it free, I would think the pugblisher would still want their dues in mopst cases.
I'd be asking Jack and/or Amy about that one Bob.



------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Well, Cobber...

Congratulations..

It appears the bloodsuckers (ASCAP etc.) in Australia are more efficient than those here in the US.

I have gotten some chex for airplay over theyears...not on this song because it's never been recorded for release..

but Roll Me A Long One has garnered a few bucks....

Nothing from Australia tho'....hmmmmmmm !

Still waiting for Brian to conjure up a way to credit James Taylor for somebody doing a night of his songs without someone making a list somewhere.

I doubt that I'll be getting an answer to that one.

The guy Brian mentioned as his "friend", Alan O'Day is a real talented guy.
Has a coup[le of big records...Undercover Angel was close to a number one in the 70's as I recall...he does Film work and TV work...he does very well.

I'm sure he's very happy to know that when some poor schmuck in a joint somewhere shows up to Play "Louie Louie", he can count on making more money off the sweat of that poor guys back.

Guess that's OK with Brian too......

Obviously it's OK with some of you...

Not me !

Bob

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 12-16-2003).]

Well I don't know why you are not geting any royalties from either air play or live performance of your stuff down here Cobber.
Toward air play, it could be that no radio staions are playing your stuff.
Hope FM where they were played and popular is a community station and under the charter is not required to submit sa play list of any kind.
I made that quite clear i the layout spiel when I first started Roar Radio, and given I gave out the URLs of yours and other writers, it would not surprise me if a few of the sales and downloads post Roar Radio days are because of that.
Not many I am sure, but can't say I didn't get off my bum and try at least.
Re live plays, I have to admit Bob, The day I wrote the lyric to Back Shearing Blues I wsa so chuffed with it I did sing that at the jam to the backing youb sent me for the Roar Radio song Turn It Up Louder because I didn't have a decent backing for it of my own.
Did tell everybody who was doing the good noise.
And did get told to shut the singing up so they could listen to that.
I did use my own melody and the backing wsa just there cos it was very open a the melody fitted in the the other bits pretty good though.
I didn't enter it in my play list becaues it was not listed with APRA as a collab or anything so would have been a waste of time.
I used your backing so the band who has backed me on it on those times I have not used my self made backing track would know how the beat and stuff went.
So. Here if you are being played on only community radio you will never see a cheque form your pro via APRA for that work.
I recently decided to forgo my jams with live bands here because most of them I know at lesat, are just as lazy as the ones up and don't do a playlist.
So in future, and now we have finally got one in the mill together, if I do them live it will be to my backings so I can put the playlist in without worrying about dropping any of the bands I know in the manure for being lazy and not submitting a play list.
The one I did a jazz take of but you went with Chris's county take, which I do like but it isn't my style, if I ever do that one live, I will sing it to my jazz backing but put it down as it is no doubt registered with your respectiv pros as a Young/Dasch song.
From memory Chris is ASAP so I will enter it under that pro.
Don't go buying another house or boat on the strength of it though Cobber as I don't gig a lot.
Re using your backing that once Bob. Should I send you the buck for the use of it, or are you content in the knowing somebody may have brought a Cd of yours from CDbaby becaue of me playing it and telling them to go do it?
Hope that got a little way toward the whys and whyfores of this stuff Cobber.
Graham




------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Reading this thread makes me long for the days of traveling minstrels, singing for their supper, and maybe getting the ultimate gig, which was as the bard in the king's court--or, just living in a class of musical artists, like in India, where music is revered and respected and supported for its own sake...I hope in my next life, I find something at least that satisfying...for now, I will stick with goals that I can at least control, like trying to write a song, and let it fly free--do you hear, FREE!!!

In the old days, you wouldn't have been allowed to be a musician in the king's court unless you were tremendously talented and your family was rich and had political connections. You would have probably been a farmer, or if you were lucky, a soldier, simply dreaming of being a musician. In India, if you weren't born in that class, chances are you would be very poor, laboring for each meal.

I grew up very poor. My mother raised my brother and I as a single parent by typing. I have no tremendous talent. I'm fairly slow, physically, can't even play fast sixteenth notes in many cases. I've been a musician all my life. Now THAT'S living free. I mean FREE.


Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

Reading this thread has promped me to write several lyrics, give a couple of them tunes, record them and post on my sites so folks know they are there.
Been a productive thread to me all the way through.
Heck. I even learned a little about the subject topic.
You must be one of those lazy writers Bob mentioned Blue.
Watch out for the cowpats over in India Cobber.
Place is full of them they tell me.
Them and foriegn dropouts.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Heck Mike. You never told me you can't play sixteenth.
Had done I would have wrotre the music for Cookie Cutter Cowboy a bit slower for you.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Can't play 'em much faster than 125 bpm unless I fingerpick or use hammer-on pull-off tricks. And I can't hardly play a decent vibrato with the left hand. That's why I play bass.

I'm the original slowhand.

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

Long before I heard the term "slowhand" I had a great drummer, a kid I grew up with, his name was Nick Morrone.

Nick was self-taught and consequently did everything "wrong"..

Held the sticks wrong, had the high hat on the wrong side of the drums etc......

He couldn't do a roll or any of that stuff, but what a pocket..he would lag just enough behind to create the groove of doom !

Anyway, when talking about his abilities we'd always say "Well, he's not real flashy...but Man is he SLOW !"

Bob

PS to Mike..

that's intersting about the "court" musicians..
I always had the image of a bunch of traveling charlatans, living by their wits and stealing food from the livestock.

Graham--nope, not lazy, just underachieved...and only lately-in-life able to afford some time to try to make some music, and then only as a hobby (or therapy, if you will)...I come here to learn whatever I can from you'all who've been through some of the stuff I can only dream about...was just lamenting a bit about this particular part of "the dream", which resembles reality too much for my taste---thanks for makin' me laugh about the India thing, tho' (Although, I doubt that Ravi Shankar worries very much over his royalties, but then, who could cover his tunes?)...and, I wouldn't have lasted an hour in those old days of yore, in the medieval court...grew up left-handed, near-sighted...I'd a been a guillotine poster boy!!

Concerning lists (uh-oh, treading on thin ice here), here's my experience in funky little Belgiumland.

I think like Australia, every venue and event here has to pay the PRO for use of music. Many grumble, etc etc. Most touring bands I know have a set list printed up and drop it off at their PRO about once a year saying something to the effect that this is what we've been playing this year (or tour or quarter) and here's a list of venues we played in. It is then put into the pot and some sort of slice comes back to the writers. Many others don't bother, figuring it's more admin than it's worth.

I suppose a number of those bands might forget their covers of "Sweet Home Alabama" or "Jingle Bells" in their official playlists. But then I'd be surprised if each and every playlist is studiously compiled and then used in the great pie-slicing exercise at the end of the year.

But whether the bands play covers or originals does not affect the venue in any way.

In my direct experience as an occasional DJ, I have specifically listed material in the playlist that I know never subsequently received extra payment. So the whole thing is averaged out very heavily, most likely using radio as the yardstick.

It's imperfect, and if managers and publishers think they are not getting enough from their peformance royalties, they can always ring the PRO and put their case across (I'm in the process of doing this right now, actually).

Michael