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Frank, why don't you post the specific advertising that you are making reference to. I'd be happy to comment on something specific. Remember, this post was started by someone seeking feedback on Taxi. Michael Laskow is a good man, and if he were running a company for this long based on deceptive advertising practices, he'd be gone like Enron. We all know that musicians are too wise and too quick to share their experiences with one another. I took a look at their site, even clicked on the industry listings and I am unclear as to what you are basing your opinion on.

I think that virtually everyone at one time or another wants to be a star, or thinks that they are a star. I want to play with the Lakers, I have since I was a kid, but I'm 5'10 and older than Shaq, and have one of the ugliest jump shots you've ever seen. I actually got to shoot around with him one time at a recording studio, and he told me to go back inside immediately and call my boss and thank him for employing me.

Who has had the opportunity to see American Idol? I love the show. I love Simon… he's the only one with big enough cajones to say what everyone else is thinking. Whoever ultimately wins STILL might not make a blip on the radar screen, because who knows how long it'll take to make a record, and based on our collective attention spans, will we care about mainstream pop 9 months from now?
There is nothing wrong with being a wannabe, as long as you continue to learn and grow and don't stay a wannabe. Results speak for themselves.




[This message has been edited by Ted Lowe (edited 07-05-2002).]

Ted,
This is NOT a court of law and I DO have a life so I'm not going to spend a bunch of time cutting and pasting TAXI's copy here. Anyone familiar with TAXI knows what I'm talking about. The testimonials claiming "the critiques alone were worth the cost of membership". I've never accused TAXI of doing anything illegal. In fact I've stated publicly that when I wanted my money back they sent me the check. My "opinion" is based on my experience as a paying member of Taxi. I'm the guy on the receiving end of feedback from guys like you. Would I ever pay for that again? Not likely. Would I recommend it to anyone. Not a chance. In fact I discourage all my wannabe friends and associates from having anything to do with it.
I like that whole story about you and Shaq and the TV show losers who are just jiving themselves. Taxi should print that up and use it. It'd be nice for people to know the sentiments of the folks who might review their work. I'm sure it wouldn't dampen anyone's enthusiasm for laying out $300.
I'm kinda slow so it's taken a while, but now I get the message: TAXI doesn't suck, I do!
To the original poster of this thread, Handrick. You suck, wannabe! Send me your $300 right away.




[This message has been edited by FrankWilliamson (edited 07-05-2002).]

"...not one has managed to address my concerns about TAXI's advertising."

I just attempted to specifically address your concerns and you failed to provide the information that you say you based your opinion on. In a court of law, your complaint would be thrown out. You are stating that they mislead you in their advertising, yet you have "too much of a life" to back up your claims?

"American Idol" is a nation wide talent search for pop singers between 18-24. TAXI is not American Idol. People who join aren't just pop singers. They are musicians or writers or performers or in many cases all of the above from a wide variety of backgrounds. A vocalist like those on "A.I." with no other musical skills would have no business joining TAXI, and I know for a fact that they would discourage it because a singer would have no original material to submit.
And for many, the critiques are worth the cost of joining. As I mentioned, I think the Road Rally alone is worth the membership fee.

And for Handrick, I suggest you give them a call and speak with Clint or Alex or Doug or Will, let them know where you are in your career and they'll tell you whether or not you could benefit from their services. You can then look through their site, base an opinion on that, and from all the feedback you've received on this bulletin board and from musicians who you've come to know and respect. On numerous occasions, I've heard them effectively convince people that TAXI is not for them.

[This message has been edited by Ted Lowe (edited 07-05-2002).]

Hmm. Oddly enough, it was my curiousity in Taxi that led me to Just Plain Folks. I'm still not sure if I should convince the boys in my band that we should sign up, but you folks have definitely given me a lot of food for thought. For that, I thank you.

And as a bonus, I've found a community of songwriters, performers and musicians that have a lot to say about the biz and seem to be genuinely suppostive of each other. Funny how these things work out, ain't it?

------------------
http://www.leavemusic.com

Cheese - If you really want some insight into the business side of music, you should check out Don Passman's book "All You Need To Know About The Music Business." I think it's been updated 4 or 5 times now. I've read all of the books out there, and his is not only the easiest read, but the most informative and "real". He's a mega music biz lawyer and a really top notch human being, a true rarity in the music biz.... I refer to it on a very regular basis.

Wow man, this thread is getting long! I think I posted on another board that if you are a writer and have a good catalog of songs it may be all right to join Taxi for a year. I have received their Brochures for a few years now but passed on the offer. I have found other ways to submit my material to Major Artists from time to time thru Tip Sheets. As I said somewhere if you don't have the right song or songs at the time for the project Taxi or no one else will get you that cut. You may listen to 4 of my songs under other writers at http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/bongos/802/index.html Sometimes this link doesn't work from here. If so you will have to type it into a search engine. Good Luck. RES.

Ok Ted, Here ya go. I spent about 5 minutes on this. That's 5 too many but here goes. These are taken directly from Taxi's "About Taxi" page. You can go to Taxi.com and find that page. See if you can find ANYTHING on that page, the page these ad blurbs are copied from, about the FACT that only SOME of your submissions will be reviewed. I couldn't find such a thing but maybe you can. For the sake of clarity my own comments, and my own emphasis are in bold.

1. Tips From The Top Guns
But your music needs to be up to the task. And if it's not ready yet, we can help you get it ready. This is the really cool part. Not only do you get to take advantage of TAXI's relationships with many of the biggest fish in the music business, you'll also get helpful, written feedback on your music from our A&R staff.

"Well, not ALL your music, but most of it.

2.The next item is tossed in because the excuse for NOT critiquing all the songs is that some lead times are short and those screeners are already working so HARD as it is. Also the whole tone of the member manual is directed at making you feel like it's really HARD for these guys to process your submission. But is it? Here's what TAXI says about that:

Q: How can TAXI handle all those submissions?
A: Pretty easily. Listening to your music is all we do, and we're extremely well-organized. We have a pool of more than 150 different A&R people. As our membership grows, so does our A&R team. Don't forget, TAXI is in L.A. We have a bottomless supply of highly qualified music industry veterans to choose from.
Well, it's easy or it's not easy depending on what the angle is I guess.

3. Q: Should I wait until my material is totally "finished" before I join TAXI?
A: Because you'll always be creating new music, you'll never really be "finished." Many of our members use TAXI as a sounding board along the way. We help them improve their songs and pitch their best material.

Well, actually we help them improve SOME of their songs and others we just send the rejection slip. You'll figure this out after you join.

4.Where Do You Stand?
Is it difficult for you to go on the road or move to one of the music capitals?
Do you need contacts in the music business?

Can you use a team of objective experts who will give you honest feedback?
Well, when you actually DO get the feedback it'll be honest. You won't get it all the time, but you'll figure this out later for yourself.

5.I received 5 critiques for one song and each one was right on the money. The critiques and this membership are priceless!"
Tammy Endlish -- TAXI Member
If Tammy's luck was anything like mine she had to submit this ONE song TWENTY times to pull in 5 critiques. Your mileage may vary

There ya go Ted. Is this page deceptive? It was for me. Is it fraudulent? I would never make that accusation and I never have made that accusation. It doesn't explicitly say ALL your music will be critiqued or that you'll always receive feeback. It does seem to IMPLY those things as I read the page in it's entirety and THAT is my complaint. Obviously NO ONE would knowingly do business with a fraud and no one would recommend a scam to a friend. But fraud is a legal term with a specific meaning. My personal standards are a tad higher than that. I don't like people who play word games. I don't do business with them and I advise my friends to do likewise. How tough would it be for Mike Laskow to put a Q/A on the "About Taxi" page regarding the frequency of the much touted "feedback"? That IS the page where you'd intuitively expect to learn ABOUT TAXI after all. You say Mike's a good guy, he works hard, his crew works hard. Hey, guess what? I'm a nice guy too. I work hard. We're all nice hard working guys. So maybe when Mike gets a spare minute (when he's not busy offering to fly people in for a pointless tour to see how hard they all work and what nice guys they all are) he could toss a little two line Q/A on the page? Maybe he EXPLICITLY tell folks what they would otherwise have to infer from perusing the listings or through experince. If I were running a business and this compaint were voiced to me I would not bash the complainer, nor would I allow my associates to do so. I'd thank the complainer for pointing out my mistake and I'd fix it. Cause I'm a nice guy. In fact, I'm such a nice guy, and such a hard worker, that I'll make Mr Laskow the following offer: I will accept his invitation to tour TAXI if he will accept my offer of my services, free of charge, as a computer programmer and allow me to edit his "About Taxi" page to include the following Q/A
Q. Will all of my submitted material receive a critique from the screener?
A. No. At times schedules for a particualr listing simply don't allow it. Up to 30% of our listings are simple PASS/FAIL listings so some or all of your submissions might not receive critiques based on which listing you select.

Now I couldn't be fairer than that could I? I'm a senior software developer and I don't work cheaply so this is really a great opportunity for TAXI to clear this up at no cost. I feel certain they'll want to do the right thing. Right?


[This message has been edited by FrankWilliamson (edited 07-05-2002).]

I guess it's a matter of perception Frank, because I was left with an entirely different opinion. We'll have to agree to disagree. Ain't America great? I'm sure your suggestions will be considered by Taxi, as they are always looking for ways to improve what they do as all good businesses do.

This topic has run its course... why don't we start a new topic under General Messages and discuss exciting new artists who are breaking, who deserve to break or will break from outside the "mainstream." There is a groundswell out there for "real music" and some exciting new artists. You first:

[This message has been edited by Ted Lowe (edited 07-05-2002).]

Yeah Ted, I'm sure Taxi will seriously consider my suggestion, what with them constantly striving to improve and all that. Isn't that called blowing smoke? I guess we will have to agree to disagree since you couldn't find the material on the page. The reason isn't perception, it's because it's not there. YOU got the perception you were supposed to get. That's called marketing. You don't get the accurate perception until later, after you've payed up, when you start to prepare your list of submissions and realize "Wow, 4 out of 5 of my submissions WON'T be critiqued." That sort of perception is called reality. But enough about uncomfortable realities, let's change the subject.

Frank, you're embarassing yourself. There's nothing in the above post that says anything about all of your submissions being critiqued. I've been following this thread for weeks, and every time that I think you've hit rock bottom you just keep drilling deeper...

Shandy,
Actually YOU are the one who is embarassing yourself. My post clearly states, and I've said repeatedly, that nothing on the Taxi site says explicitly that all the songs will be critiqued. That would be fraud. You say you've read the thread but your clearly not following it. I've never accused Taxi of fraud, just sneakiness. If you can't grasp the difference maybe I can help. You're right, they don't say ALL your material will receive feedback. They also don't say SOME of your material will. They don't really say explicitly one way or the other. I think the ambiguity is deliberate. If it weren't deliberate why wouldn't they clear it up in the manner I've outlined?

Sorry Frank but it's YOU who are embarrasing YOURSELF,and I'm the guy who actually got you the offer you turned down.

I've been to the Taxi Web Site and seen the listings and very clearly stated under appropriate ones is witten,NO CRITIQUE PROVIDED.I've never been a member of Taxi but I have considered joining,as part of that process of consideration I was able to make myself aware that some songs would be judged on a yes/no basis.This was long before your little rant here at Just Plain Folks.

Ted Lowe attempted to address your concerns in a sincere and straightforward manner and your responce to him was first evasive,then full of sarcasm,and childish petulance.I expect your only problem is that you can't read very well,perhaps you should take up your complaint with an appropriate panel of four year olds.

And just to make absolutley certain that everyone gets it,here is a direct link to the Taxi page where those sample listings are given.

Notice the 8th listing down from the top in the Adult Alternative group,it starts out
"Extremely well connected Music Company",in very,very obvious BOLD FACE TYPE it states

"YES/NO BASIS ONLY-NO CRITIQUE FROM TAXI "

How much more obvious than that do you want? I got it without ever being a member.

Here's the link,the curious can check it out and decide for themselves who the idiots here really are.

http://www.taxi.com/industry.html

I have a few thoughts on this again. I think bottom line is this; TAXI and/or song critiques in general aren't for everyone. One thing that I have taken away from this is this; as a whole the music industry does not care about developing anyone in a artistic way or as an artist. You're just a piece of meat, product. I think that's one of the points that guys like Frank and myself are trying to make. Have the balls to be like Ani Difranco and say "no" to the industry. Don't let them manipulate your art. Don't let them make it their vision instead of yours. I had a talk with my sister about this the other day. She asked me if I would change my music, appearance etc... if it meant that I could have a record deal and not have to work at a music store anymore. Without hesitation I said no. It may take me alot longer to achieve some of the goals I've set for myself, and I may never get there. If that makes people like us wannabes Ted, that's just the kind of thing that spurs me on. Industry people like yourself love to look down at the music makers because you dangle the carrot, you hold the brass ring. I say WRONG!!! Right now my music career is whatever I want it to be. I am not a wannabe. I am a musician/songwriter. Now when I was starting out at 13, yeah I was a wannabe. I do write songs. I don't sit around and say "geez, I'd really like to be a songwriter someday". It's irrelevant if I make a living at just songwriting. I am active through my JPF chapter in my music community, I have CD's on my own label. I am creating music. That doesn't make me a wannabe. What I do want to be is self sustaining from this someday, even if it's a harder road that I've chosen. I think instead of telling writers that they need to review and take a hard look at how they can improve their songwriting skills, I think that the industry needs to take a hard look at how it can be more open minded and more developmental friendly to artists. Ted, you said in an earlier post that writers are the last ones to see their faults. Well when it comes to me, I'm my own worst critic. I'm always listening to music that I admire and wishing alot of times that I could write as well as those particular artists. But knowing that, it drives me to improve my own writing all of the time and to continue on knowing that I have to write MY songs, not someone else's. When you sit there at TAXI or at a song critique and someone tells you what you should have done here or there, it's as if they're saying "now if I were writing this song..." but they're not. There comes a point as awriter where you have to trust yourself to be able to tell a story, trust yourself to find the right language both musically and lyrically and trust yourself to edit it. And BTW I am going to participate in a songwriter's workshop this fall mainly because it will force me to write a song every week and because of the commraderie of it. I think this thread needs to end as well. We need to celebrate our accomplishments, no matter how small and celebrate our differences as writers.
All The Best,
davey O.
davey O. music (ASCAP)
davey3o@cs.com
http://daveyomusic.freehosting.net

You certainly have a right to disagree, Frank, but you kinda reinforced the point I was trying to make. You may see a difference between Creed and Smashing Pumpkins--but I don't. I knew the difference between Mick Jagger and Peter Noone, but my dad didn't. If you like music enough to be interested in it, you'll find lots of magical stuff. My kids like pop music enough to be intereseted in it and it feeds their young hearts, much the same way "Wild Thing" did for me, I guess.

My remark about age was meant to be a generalization, and I stand by it. There are certainly exceptions--and you may be one--but generally, the folks who complain about contemporary music are going to be people who are not too "contemporary"--if you get my drift.

JohnnyRock,
You didn't say anything I haven't already said. I said long ago that if I had read the listings carefully and not gone by the tone of the "About Taxi" page I would have known better. You're telling me I didn't dig deeply enough so shame on me. Correct. I thought I'd learn about Taxi from the "About Taxi" page. I didn't read the fine print. I just don't do business with folks who hide the gotchas in the fine print. I prefer the ones who put the entire truth on the front page and then stick to that. As for Ted, he was telling me to put up or shut up, so I put up. I pasted direct quotes from Taxi's page. At that point he decided he didn't want to debate it anymore. It's not my problem if you don't like the tone of my posts. I call it the way I see it and anybody is free to disagree with me.
And what the heck does this mean?
Sorry Frank but it's YOU who are embarrasing YOURSELF,and I'm the guy who actually got you the offer you turned down.
YOU'RE the guy who actually got ME some invitation that has nothing to do with Taxi's advertising? So what?

Listen folks,
If you've read and understood my posts on this subject, and you feel comfortable with Taxi's advertising, then by all means give Taxi a try. I did just that. I am not comfortable with the way they advertise, but if you are then got for it. If nothing else, people who've read this thread will have a clearer understanding of what Taxi delivers than they might have had without it.


[This message has been edited by FrankWilliamson (edited 07-06-2002).]

Ok Frank,fair enough.

There are legitimate differences in perspective.But I don't see this point being hidden in very fine print,to the contrary, it is in BOLD PRINT right out in the open as any one who checks out the listings link can see.

My point really being that your complaint has been addressed,perhaps you do not feel fully satisfied,but it has been addressed.




[This message has been edited by johnnyrock (edited 07-06-2002).]

Out of curiosity, I went and poked around Taxi's site for a while. In my opinion, Frank is correct. I believe their copy leads one to believe that each submission will receive full, written feedback from industry pros. If, as Frank claims, this is not true, then it is misleading. Whether the folks at Taxi have done this as an oversight or as a deliberate dodge, I do not know, and don't care to guess.

In Frank's defense--although he appears to need none--let me point out that he has taken great pains NOT to be accusatory, NOT to claim fraud, and NOT to offer anything other than his own opinion about it.

One other observation: if the success stories they post on their site is the best they can offer after ten years in the business, perhaps there MIGHT be a better way to spend $300.

One thing that Taxi says on its web site that is undoubtedly true: "TAXI is not for everyone."

Truman,
Thanks for taking the time to check out what I've said. I really appreciate the support on this. At least I know I'm not the only one who interprets the Taxi site the way I've said. I have tried hard to be accurate and honest in the things I've posted on this subject. Again, thanks for taking the time to offer your supportive post.

Frank

Truman

Ok,I'll bite,what is it about Taxi's copy that you believe makes it seem as though each and every song submitted will recieve a critique?

I did a quick check at the listings page and out of 121 listings,there were 31 that stated in big bold type YES/NO BASIS-NO CRITIQUE FROM TAXI.

How do you miss that?

I looked at the site as a casual, interested party. As would anyone seeking information, I clicked on the "About Taxi" button, and I read the following:

"A specialist from our team of 150 highly-trained industry veterans will listen carefully to each and every song you send us."

Then:

"Not only do you get to take advantage of TAXI's relationships with many of the biggest fish in the music business, you'll also get helpful, written feedback on your music from our A&R staff."

This language led me to believe that submissions would receive "helpful, written feedback" from their staff of music professionals. You can certainly make the point that they didn't use the word "all," but neither did they use the word "some." I think a person about to send in $300 would appreciate this information.

Again, I make no accusation. I just reported what their site communicated to ME.

BTW, I did find the listings you mentioned. There was not a button for it, where one would most likely look. There was a link. I read the first 5 or 6 listings--as I think a normal, prudent person might--and each one said that a written critique would be forthcoming for any submissions. How far would you expect one to dig before discovering that not ALL submissions qualify?

I still think Frank makes a good point. The folks at Taxi could allay this whole mess by simply adding a few explanatory words to their sales pitch. I hope they do. If a songwriter created a lyric that was this imprecise and confusing, it would probably be clobbered by Taxi's "staff of music professionals."

[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 07-08-2002).]

Truman,
It's clear that you see my point. And it's not simply some theoretical point either. It's what actually happened to me. I went to the Taxi site to check it out. I read the About Taxi page and I got the impression I'd get all my material critiqued. I'm sure I must have perused the listings but I just didn't see the NO CRITIQUE thing because I wasn't looking for that. Why would I be looking for it given what I'd read on the About Taxi page? It was only after I'd joined and was preparing my submissions that I realized that 4 of my 5 submissions would not receive critiques. That's when I wrote Taxi and received a brief explanation that that's their policy, end of story. It wasn't until I'd posted a derogatory post here that my complaint got escalated to Mike Laskow.
The About Taxi page refers repeatedly to feedback and critiques and those terms are NEVER restricted with "some" or "most". One would NOT expect to find a policy delineated in the listings that is not delineated on the About Taxi page would they?
As far as Taxi clarifying this point on their site, I suggested this directly to Mike Laskow weeks and weeks ago. I'm guessing that if they wanted to clear it up they would have done so by now.
For the rest, there's an interesting social dynamic going on here. People seem to have divided along a particular line for reasons that seem to have to do with more than just the simple facts. It seems as if once someone has aligned themselves with a particular position, no amount of argument or evidence will change that. People will not see what they will not see.

Frank

Truman

You make a credable case.Even though I don't think that I would interpret those statements to mean "all",I can see that at a cursory glance someone else reasonably might.

For myself,the first thing I went to was the listings as it was the specific contacts that are all I would be interested in.Who's listening,what are they looking for,ect.

In all honesty,do you think a prospective writer performer is only going to look thgrough the first five or six listings? I didn't,I looked through them all.Not to see if there was a catch,just to find out what they all were,and to decide which if any could apply to me.

I wanted to know how my 300 dollars would be spent so I personaly made the effort to find out.

Frank

I'm just calling it the way I see it.I elected not to use Taxi, and if you recall, my initial post was to suggest that in most cases writers/performers will be better off getting their music heard some other way.

I still contend that.

But out of the 121 sample listings only 31 do not supply critiques,meaning about 75% do supply them overall.Given then that the overwhelming majority of submissions do recieve reviews how much effort should Taxi go to in order to make the point, that overall a fairly small percentage do not.

Ok Johnny. Here's the thing about stats. You say 75% DO get reviews. In my dictionary that means MOST do but SOME don't (25%). Most is not all. When I say I'm going to pay you what I owe, and I owe you $100, are you expecting $100 or will you be happy with $75? How far should Taxi go? You tell me how tough it is to include the word MOST? The truth is it's not hard at all if you are concerned about it all and it's too damned hard if you don't want to in the first place. Taxi can do as they damned well please. I will continue to discourage anyone who asks my opinion from doing business with Taxi BASED ON MY ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (not on some abstract argument).
Finally, here's a hypothetical for you. I go to the store for some cookies. I buy this gigantic box of cookies. When I get home and open the box there are exactly 8 cookies in the huge box. Was I defrauded? No. It says Cookies 8 Count right no the bax in lower right corner. Will I buy these cookies again? Will I recommend these cookies to my friends? Clever marketing does not make repeat customers. Where is Taxi's critique policy? Clearly stated on the more prominent section of the site or buried down in the listings?

Frank

[This message has been edited by FrankWilliamson (edited 07-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by FrankWilliamson (edited 07-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by FrankWilliamson (edited 07-08-2002).]

all gone

[This message has been edited by Hobart (edited 07-09-2002).]

Hobart,
THe reason given by Taxi for this, and I'm not saying it's a good or a bad one, is that some listers come to Taxi needing a very fast turnaround. So fast that they can't take the time for feedback. Originally Taxi provided feedback on ALL submissions, so if they continued that policy they would have to deny their members the opportunity to submit to these time-constrained listings. They didn't want their members to lose out, so they changed their feedback policy. So they would say the modified policy was done to benefit their members and increase the member's opportunities. I suggested they might lower the submission fee on those type of listings and was told that since the submission fee is not meant to cover the cost of the screening (but as a disincentive to submit to every single listing) it makes no sense to lower the fee. All I know is you get more service for your money if you submit to the CRITIQUE INCLUDED listings than the NO CRITIQUE listings.

Frank

To all concerned,
I have received an email from Mike Laskow in which he included the text of a Q/A similar to the one I suggested above. He assures me this will be in the new member's brochure. I've asked him if this paragraph is also to be placed on the "About Taxi" webpage. I'm assuming at this point that it will be. If that, in fact, proves to be the case then that'll be the end of the discussion on my part regarding Taxi's advertising. Hopefully this entire episode will at least save someone else the confusion and frustration of feeling they'd gotten something other than what they thought they'd payed for. My compliments to Mike Laskow for stepping up to the plate and doing the right thing. My compliments also to Brian for permitting us all this forum to address this concern.



------------------
www.soundclick.com/frankwilliamson

Alls well that ends well. A good ending to a good discussion.

JeanB

Hi! I'm probably responding too late (can't tell when this was posted) but I am the TAXI member who had 5 critiques for 5 submissions. That was one song that was submitted to 5 different listings and I had 5 different reviewers (based on ID #) give me pretty much the same low-down. I have only submitted a few more times because I'm lazy ;-D but I have received a critique for every submission unless it was a 'yes/no' listing. Hope this helps to clarify. I have not submitted anything in several years but I'm still a member if that says anything! Take care!

Tendlish,

That post is 4 years old actually.

Brian

Okay - I guess I'll join in...

Von here from ONOFFON. I joined TAXI and was a member for two years. I submitted quite a few songs and had about a 50% forward rate, which I was told, was very good. I never got any kind of licensing deal. We were actually offered a 'record deal' once. All we had to do was give the 'record company' a completed master, all artwork and liner notes, AND $2,000.00. If we sold a thousand pieces in the first three months, they could opt to invest on a second release.

Not the record deal I've ever dreamed of signing.

Anyway, I opted not to renew for a third year. I didn't ask for my money back since TAXI did what they said they would - no promises. But, the drawback with TAXI is they work within the 'industry'.

ONOFFON has never written or recorded music with the 'industry' in mind. We don't do what they prescribe - we're not in the 18-26 year old age bracket that they demand - we don't try to sound like anyone. We try to produce completely unique material that has the ONOFFON sound.

99% of TAXI listings ask for music that sounds like some popular group. They want music that sounds like someone without having to pay that someone's licensing costs. They are looking for a bargain but want specific qualities to be present in the songs they license.

This KILLS creativity and innovation in music. If you are trying to sound original and visionary - you will not do well at TAXI. This is a melting pot for generic, rubber stamped music that fills the requirements of the producer asking for the music. Your intro has to be no more than four bars, it has to get moving right away, you need a precise verse, and your chorus needs that hook.

Now, you might say that this is just sour grapes from a group that can't cut it. Well, our music has won awards, earned features, and the most excellent reviews any artist could ask for from literally thousands of sites around the world for our three released CDs over our ten year existence. Without TAXI, I've placed our music in twenty different productions, the most prominent being with FOX Sports and the Discovery Channel.

The fact that we never placed music through TAXI doesn't qualify our music - it just means we didn't fill the music supervisor's criteria for something that needed to sound like something he was specifically searching for. That's just the nature of the beast. We're just too unique to fit the mold.

It's funny - there are a couple of catch phrases that float around the industry - 'thinking outside the box' and 'it's about the music'. Well, nobody in the mainstream thinks outside the box and it's never about the music - it's about the image and marketability.

BTW - I met Ted Lowe a couple of times - very nice man. Personally handed him our CDs on both occasions. He obviously didn't like what he heard from us because he never contacted me about anything - which is fine. I'm not foolish enough to think that everyone is going to like our music. But, I have to say - I read the reference to playing for the Lakers a few posts back - the beauty of sports is, if you are really good at what you do, you can play for the Lakers. In music, talent is only a convenient by-product. I'm not saying everyone who has made it has no talent, but there are a lot more Ashley Simpsons out there than Yo-yo Mas.

Cheers!

Von from ONOFFON

Von,

Your own post contradicts itself. TAXI works with both Fox Sports and the Discover Channel. If they both licensed your music, then that proves that not all TAXI listings are ONLY looking for generic sound-alikes.

It's also misleading to make it sound like TAXI is at fault in the first place. They are simply bringing the market demand to their members. Not everyone has the time, history and connections that you have developed over the years. Most people also don't live in LA like you do, or Nashville or NYC (though most things seem to happen in LA and Nashville now unless you're in Theater or have advertising agency connections). If you lived in Des Moines and had a day job, could you actually access all the opportunities that TAXI offers?

As for your music, (FYI to anyone reading this that ONOFFON are previous JPF Award nominees), I am sure you know as much as anyone that when you do music outside the mainstream, CD sales suffer. Perhaps you guys have broken the code and you're selling 10K-20K albums a year, but most people aren't who don't do something in the mainstream. No one supports more diversity in music than JPF (we have 75 different genres in the awards this year.. the Grammy's give out song awards in 8 genres by comparison). But we also have common sense. The "money" is in mainstream. Art is NOT commerce. TAXI is a place for people seeking commerce, not validation for their art.

Brian

Von, I second your opinion about "the biz"

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bc

Brian - I placed the music with FOX and Discovery WITHOUT being a member of TAXI. They had nothing to do with it. Both placements I negotiated before I joined TAXI. In fact, those placements were the reason I joined TAXI - I thought, if I could do it on my own, then TAXI would be a big help.

They weren't...

I don't blame TAXI - they are not at fault.

That's why I didn't ask for my money back.

Von

Thanks bc..

I'm not industry bashing, it's just reality. They look for an easily marketable package that has a clearly defined demographic. Bottom line...

Something else I'd like to point out, as you may know, I have worked in the movie industry as well. First, in special effects and then in production and direction. I even provided the entire underscore for the movie, 'Forever', as a part of the group, The RH Factor, (it's in the IMDB). When a producer finds someone that does a competent job for them, in whatever capacity, they usually choose to go back to them on the next picture they produce.

For the most part, so do music supervisors. Once they have a good working relationship with a musician/composer, they will usually continue that relationship from film to film to film. It's easier to keep working with someone you know and trust to get the job done.

I've spoken with a few music supervisors that say they go to a place like TAXI as a last resort. If they are looking for a specific piece to portray a certain scene as they hear it, and they don't have it from their usual sources, they will go to TAXI, or a music library, looking for that specific piece of music. So, when a super is going to a place like TAXI, they trust that TAXI's screeners will forward to them songs that fit their exact criteria.

The best bet for a group like ours is to find an up and coming Tim Burton, like Danny Elfman did, and provide unique and innovative music that fits the unique and innovative visions he (or she) puts on the screen...

That or produce movies on our own and put our own music in them... hehehe...

When I was living in Nashville there was a new company that would critique songs and nurture you as a writer. It cost money and I remember Larry Gatlin was associated with it. For those who don't know, he was a fairly successful star in the 70s and 80s. I think Gatlin was more of a face and name for advertising than a major component of the company.

Anyhow, this was a big controversy at the time because it had ALWAYS been said: Don't EVER pay anyone to listen to your songs. I think the other major admonition was Don't Pay for a demo because that is the publisher's job.

Well, times have changed, haven't they. Now dozens of people who have never written a hit or more than one hit but have written books offer critiques. Some of these folks are worthy of the investment but some aren't.

Most of us, not me of course, just don't have the talent. Then if we do have the talent, it doesn't mean we'll make it. I cannot believe that they are not people in Nashville who will listen for free and tell you what you need to know. They may be hard to find but I just can't believe they're not there anymore.

Taxi is like many things. It has some good points but it's a company that wants to make a profit. It was (I've heard) involved in a number one Kenny Rogers' record. If that's true, they are the only people to come alone in the last fifteen years or so who could say that.

Von,

I am aware that TAXI didn't get you those deals. You missed my entire point. You said that TAXI doesn't work with anyone who is willing to consider stuff outside the mainstream. But TAXI works with both companies you got placements with.. so they DO work with companies of all types, including those who will consider stuff from outside the mainstream. But at the risk of stating the obvious, the industry, for the most part, wants mainstream and that's what they are willing to pay for. If TAXI gives them something DON'T want.. everyone loses.. TAXI, the company who wasted their time and the writer/artist who submitted and got no where and all the others who missed the chance because they tried to push something out of a fit for what was asked for.

TAXI is simply 1 tool of many many many tools that active artists/writers should be using. Networking, Education and the aggressive use of every tool out there should be part of arsenal that people are using. I think a big problem is that many artists choose 1 thing (TAXI or another company/organization) and think that 1 thing alone will bring success. It usually doesn't. You have to do all of it simultaneously and relentlessly, all while writing and recording and performing better music all the time. TAXI nor any other company or service is not an end all be all for anything. It's like trying to fix an entire engine with a single hand tool. No matter how good that tool is, it has specific and limited purpose and use. It's great for it's intended purpose, but won't fix your transmission or in this case your career alone.

I do agree with the premise that if you aren't interested in writing accessible music that might appeal to the widest audience in your genre (whether it's Jazz or Rock or Country or Childrens or Klezmer) it's always going to be a lot tougher to get the industry system to stop it's machine like repititious behavior and notice. But if you're making truly ground breaking new music (as opposed to polished mainstream) people WILL notice and they WILL be interested. The problem is that a large number of artists/writers seriously overestimate the appeal of their own music. But that's a topic for another time.

Brian

Personally, I weigh our musical appeal by what others say about our music. For example, here's a piece of a review of a song off our new album released last June -

Finale - "Talk about ending the album on a high note, this one is purely awesome. It might well be the most intriguing piece the band have ever done. It reminds me in a lot of ways of the type of material that made King Crimson's Red album so strong. There are also points where I hear a bit of Dark Side of the Moon era Pink Floyd in the mix. Either way, it just doesn't get a lot better than this. I even hear just a hint of The Doors' "Riders on the Storm" in the outro. I'd say this track by itself would be worth the price of admission here."

Just last week, another reviewer said this about a song off our first CD - now more than nine years old -

The Gift Must Always Move - "Calm and soothing instrumental music by ONOFFON. The guitar play, and electronic aquatics that this song has been given, really stands out as some of the most impressive I've heard this year. It mixes elements of jazz, and puts a guitar at the front seat. This song really calmed me down, and proves that a song doesn't have to make a statement (have vocals) to prove anything at all. "The Gift Must Always Move" is a piece of art. A true tribute to music, and to subtle guitar play. Yes, ONOFFON, spot on! Highly recommended download."

It really doesn't matter what I think of our music - I like what we do - what a surprise. But as long as listeners are inspired to say things like those two did - on music we've just released and music we created almost a decade ago - well... we must be doing something right.

TAXI is one piece of a new group of businesses that feed off the indie movement and people's dreams. First, you pay their membership fee - then there's each submission fee - then you can pay additional money for the special 'Dispatch' service (that really pissed me off) - then you can submit digitally by joining BroadJam (but not their free service - only through their paid membership level) - then you can pay SonicBids for a real cool Electronic Press Kit - then you can get your CDs pressed at DiscMakers... etc etc etc...

Brian - you have to admit, it's all a little infuriating. We scrape our money together to record our music at the highest level of production quality we can afford to. We create the best artwork we can afford to create. We produce our product to the best of our abilities, to make it on a competitive level as major releases - not just indie releases. That's where our focus is and that's where it should remain.

I will say that CD Baby is the one shining beacon of integrity in the world of indie music business. Yes - you pay a fee to get set up on the site - but it's a one-time fee - no hidden agendas. What Derek says he does - he does. I've never known a business with more scruples. I remember meeting Derek at the first EAT'M conference I attended - when Michael Robertson still owned and operated Mp3.com. Derek was the one guy on the panels that even the major label guys would pay attention to. ONOFFON was one of the first 100 CD Babies - I'm very proud of that fact.

Ultimately, you have to do what's right for you, as an artist. To do what you feel you have to to satisfy your artistic needs.

I believe I am carrying on a tradition of quality and integrity in musician produced, independent music and I know my father would be proud of our accomplishments...

Hello Handrick

I guess some of us are going wrong here on TAXI. The question I would like to ask is, if TAXI were that bad, would they get all those members for all those years without people discovering that they are bad? How good a songwriter were you when you wanted to get the cut? And, was the time right? I think as a songwriter,(I do not belong to TAXI my friends so don't think I am on their side) You have to understand that not all songs you write are gonna get the cut. If they do, they may not necessarily win you grammies, or other major awards. Very simple songs that artists wrote just to 'fill an album' have been able to surprise guys and sell millions of copies, yet those that they thought were strong did not get positive response. Songwriting can be interesting at times.

My take on this is, do not trash someone else's business just because you did not get a cut..maybe if you try next time you will..perhaps you were not patient enough! And who tells you that were you are going you gonna make a cut had you not stayed on with TAXI?

It is our duty to read instructions before going headlong then complaining later..they say ignorance is no defence.

I cannot blame TAXI, but again I have not subscribed with them. Perhaps we can get a level ground if TAXI guys were also asked to tell their part of the story, and even convince us why we should subscribe to their site. You might all be surprised that they may be having so many success stories that they are ready to show us as opposed to a few guys telling others not to join their site.

I think Folks just need to do their research, take care, work harder, believe more in themselves than in publishing companies, pray to God and be patient.

I have never won a major award or got a major cut..but I am on my way..I can even feel it! Thanks folks for the sharing! I was just trying to be impartial and fair. Nothing personal!

Blame the music Industry..not TAXI! And write what pleases you and the people..not the Industry.

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frankie

[This message has been edited by frahmes (edited 07-25-2006).]

Von,

Guess who else openly endorses TAXI? Derek Sivers. You know as well as me he lists and endorses very few companies. (Look at who ISN'T linked on his site and who is.. it's quite interesting).

It's also a bit insulting to read "I will say that CD Baby the one shining beacon of integrity in the world of indie music business." Not only have you left out amazing companies and people like The Future of Music Coalition, who have done more for indies politically than anyone, including Derek and myself (though we're both on their board) or Muses Muse who pre-date both CD Baby, JPF and most others on the web in helping Songwriters and Artists (they probably even reviewed one of your CD's at some point) or even JPF ourselves (which is more ironic since you posted this rant on our website), you apparently don't feel any of us have "integrity" enough to mention in the same breath as CD Baby. Pretty offensive. And there's many many more out there doing great work not only with integrity, but tirelessly working to help indie artists, even those many are hardly thankful, such as yourself. Of course, those of us who work FREE are often the first ones forgotten by folks like you.. because we aren't charging you money or putting any money in your pocket directly through a weekly check. Forget networking, or education, or protecting your rights, or promoting your music, NOT because we're paid to, but because we want you to succeed. That apparently doesn't show up on YOUR radar screen in the Integrity department. So who is REALLY all about the money? Sounds like it's you.

It also insults all the honest companies out there like TAXI and Disc Makers and Oasis CD Duplication and Song U and Indie-Music and The Indie Bible and NSAI and dozens of others who conduct honest business every day to offer legit services with great service and value to those who need and use them as intended. The fact that you leave any of the above (and many MANY others) out of your "integrity" equation says a lot more about you than it does about them.

Things apparently are not as black and white as you've convinced yourself. There are plenty of good guys and plenty of bad guys out there. No one has the market cornered on integrity or lack thereof. But if you're going to throw stones, why not throw them at the actual bad guys instead of tearing down (or just as bad, completely ignoring) the small number of honest companies who DO have integrity and who DO have the indie communities best interest at heart?

There's an old cliche explaining that the reason artists get screwed by the industry is because everyone knows that as soon as they can get away with it and have the power themselves, those same artists will bite the hand that fed them in the first place, so many in the industry simply sink their teeth in first. This fear of being bitten often causes indie artists to devour their own in a paranoid frenzy long before they even have the power (or developed the talent) to get away with it. It's a stereotype for sure.

Some of that is actually true and some of it is simply justification used to screw people because people aren't actually stereotypes nor do they always behave the same way. But don't cry wolf when you haven't been bitten by one and don't ignore or forget those who have gladly fed you along the way with little or no strings attached. If you do, then you'll simply be an example of the cliche and stereotype actually come to life.

Brian

Brian -

I don't know why you want to take offense at what I say. I can only speak from experience. I don't know the Future of Music Coalition - from the sound of their title, I would venture to say they don't charge money for their services. Neither does Just Plain Folks. I didn't mention you as having integrity because you are not a service in the same regard.

Yes - you are a shining beacon also. There are MANY people I have worked with across cyberspace that I didn't mention because they don't fall in the same category as what I'm talking about. There are countless websites that I've worked with that have gone away and I was very sad to see them go.

I'm sorry that you have taken such insult at what is only my opinion here. I still think TAXI is a good service for those individuals that need it for the reasons you've stated. SonicBids and BroadJam are also useful to many.

They're just not right for me - and that's all I'm stating here.

I guess anyone can take offense to pretty much anything anybody says these days. As I said, whatever works for the individual is what's right for them.

Thanks for your understanding in this matter,

Von



[This message has been edited by ONOFFON (edited 07-25-2006).]