JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum TAXI

Here's my recommendation to anyone wondering about TAXI. If you have $300 you don't mind tying up for a while then join TAXI and send some submissions. After a few months, if you don't think it's worth it, ask for your money back. You'll get it. It's really pretty simple. This is what I did. I didn't like TAXI so I got my money back. That's my experience and I think it entitles me to an opinion on this subject without being hassled or someone talking about what's between my legs. Really, 9NE, that comment is mindless and beneath you.

Frank

Now, now Frank; sure and I was just havin' a wee bit of fun, so I was!

Hi Everyone,
My name is davey O., I'm a songwriter based in Buffalo, NY... no it's not snowing!!! it's incredibly hot and humid right now. Anyway, personally, I had thought of joining TAXI on several occasions as well as Song Link and I just can't justify the cost. It seems like a carrot in front of the horse to me. As is the music business. We're all chasing a dream that has a different meaning for everyone when it comes to what success is. Actually, I've heard so many different takes of how to be successful in this business, I'd be wealthy if I had the five bucks TAXI charges for each one of them. You hear different things all the time... relentless touring, I sent in a piano/vocal demo, we had a fully finished, mastered track ready for release. So which path do you follow??? I guess the best thing that I can offer is to write, record and put your stuff out and let the public decide. Shouldn't that be the way radio and music should be? You create your art and the people can let you know if they like it. This can determine the size of your audience. I know there are other factors, ie how far you distribute your material etc... I'm speaking in generalities here. It's sad to know that large corporations try to tell the public what's good music by force feeding it down our ears. One of the best things I've done is to use the internet to find leads. There are indie bands, small film makers and smaller labels who are looking for music and songs. You have to dig a little. Build your resume by getting your songs into some small projects. You can't always expect to hit a home run every time at bat. Put out your own CD. There's artwork and labeling software available and just about everyone has a CD burner. Do that, send it to your local paper's music critic and other publications like Songwriter's Monthly and build your press kit. Be your own little industry. Also, a friend of mine and I were talking one night about another trend and this goes along with paying for critiques etc... There is without a doubt an industry within the industry. I have seen countless songwriter's who supplement their income by charging $50-75 for song critiques. That to me is taking complete advantage of someone who doesn't have enough music business knowledge to know they're being taken. In the same vein, studios and some publishers in Nashville do the same thing. My friend know a writer that lived in Nashville for a time and was doing demos for a publisher. Well every time he presented the song it was " well you know if you only had a female singer on it... I know one that would be great for this song" and then it was a string section and the publisher knew all of the string players and so on ... So it was a little circle of people keeping each other in business off songwriter's that don't know any better until it's too late and you've spent $3000.00 to demo one song. Then the clincher; when the demo was all said and done, the publisher told the writer, " well we don't really need anything right now with a female voice on it" It's all a big machine, and you can either play by their rules, or make up your own. Everyone has some kind of advice, or self help book on every topic from songwriting to God. And as I said before, everyone has a different way of getting there. I used to second guess my recordings all the time until I realized that major label artists and producers probably listen back to stuff after it's been released and wish they could have maybe had brought the guitar up a little here etc... and other things. It's the songs you create that matter the most. After all your songs are basically your observation on something. And if only one person or a million people get it, you've done your job. Good luck to all you writers out there. Don't stop no matter how hard it seems. Cheers! davey O.

My hat's off to you, Davey. I couldn't agree more. It seems like the majority of the music business involves getting people to approve of your artistic vision. This includes the screener at TAXI whose sense of what constitutes a good song is no better or worse than all the kind folks who will critique your song for free here on JPF. The one critique I got from TAXI ripped my song for having a vague storyline. Well, I sent the same song to a Nashville publisher who gave me a contract on it. The same week he played it at a pitch session for an RCA producer who put it on hold. Eventually the head of the label passed on the song but that was only after the A&R director had ok'd it. The song is now on hold with Dreamworks. So who's right and who's wrong? Is it a good song or not? There's no correct answer. Apparently some people think it's great, others don't. For me, I'm done paying people to approve or disaprove of my material. I have a guy in Nashville now who will pitch my stuff to the top people in town. He get's the publishers cut. But only IF the song gets cut. I've realized lately that I've spent too much time getting critiques here and on other boards and from TAXI etc. The one guy I really have to impress with my music is me. If I do that I'm always going to be happy making music. If I fail to do that no amount of commerical success will be worth it. I just really agree with what you say Davey. Make the music you love and then find an audience that also loves it. Commerical success is a crapshoot.

Hi Frank,
I'm glad someone else besides me feel that way. My biggest frustration is getting the opportunity. There are so many closed circles, even here in little old Buffalo, NY. I've approached other bands etc... about letting me do like a 30 minute acoustic opener for a show, free of charge, just let me play my songs, expand my audience and move a few discs and all the same people in their circle always get the gigs. I think deep down what all of just really want is a chance. Give me a chance. If I blow it, I'll take the heat. But, at least give a songwriter a fair, objective listen. Another thing that is absolutely appalling is the total uneducated mass public when it come to music. Again today, I had this conversation with a piano teacher who shops at the music store I work at. We got on the subject of how terrible alot of music sounds in it's sheet music version, especially stuff like N'sync, Backstreet, Britney etc... I tried explaining to her for the last time how that stuff is "production music" ; it's written around drum loops and the "in" keyboard and production sounds available today. Pitch correction software for so-so vocalists. She somehow has it in her head that because Justin Timberlake has his mname in the writing credits for N'sync's songs that he's some kind of legitimate songwriter and musician. She just doesn't get it that maybe he changed a lyric here and there or the melody line a little so, yeah if he changed the character of the end result, he gets writing credit. Does that make him a legitimate songwriter? Compared to Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Adam Durwitz, or Jewel for example? People that have put years into learning how to CRAFT a melody or lyric, not by taking advantage of celebrity status. This coming from someone who is in her 40's and a piano teacher. This is what corporate radio does...it turns the brain into a non-deciphering unit. "Well, heck it's on the radio and MTV, it must be good music! I don't see any one lining up to buy your CD." And that's how most Americans think. At least Canada has programs like FACTOR, where the government gives grants to unsigned and up and coming acts for doing demos, artist development etc... Canadians have been getting it right for a long time. It's about the MUSIC!!! Any way, some additional beef.... Take Care, davey O.

You sound just like me, Davey. I took some heat on another site for saying exactly what you said about production music. Some people simply don't believe that a large corporation can run a mediocre product up the chart simply by having an effective marketing campaign. That's because some people missed the entire twentieth century apparently. But it's just a simple fact. The music "business" is about business. It's about selling units. That's all. Stars like N'Sync and Britney Spears are products that some really talented producer dreamed up and then he went out and found some flesh puppets to play the parts. That marketing guy or marketing team really does have something going on. You could even call it an art form. Not the music. But conceptualizing the package and putting it together. It's what Hollywood's been doing forever. They don't need art. They need a tolerable product that they can market to folks who are more than happy to be told what to watch and listen to. This isn't sour grapes on my part. More power to em, I say. It's just not something I'm interested in. There are plenty of really good songwriters out there today. Sometimes you have to get off the beaten path to find them, but they're out there. People who write from the heart. People who are trying to create art and not a product.
The guy who critiqued my song for TAXI said "Give us a straightforward story in simple language we can understand". Screw that. I'm not in the business of telling people things they already know without having to think about it. Critiques are fine when you're learning the fundamentals of songwriting. After that it's best to listen to yourself. Compare your own tunes to the great tunes you love and admit where you come up short.
Good luck, Davey.

Frank

Hey Frank,
Perhaps we could exchange our music with each other. You can get my email and other info on my website which is under my member profile. BTW, I love the flesh puppets comment...that is so true. BTW, congrats on getting your song on hold with Dreamworks. One rung at a time. I'm negotiating a similar thing here with six of my songs. I'm doing a co-publishing deal with a small publisher. Some songs for five years, others for three. I get to keep a third of the publishing and all of my writer royalties. But like you said previously, no one makes a cent until a song is placed and cut. It puts the onus on the publisher to hustle the material if he or she wants all involved to benefit finacially. I agree with the comments that were made about TAXI from both sides. For me though, there is just not enough positives about it to make it worth the $300 plus. I network my CD like mad at every opportunity. My wife and I attend as many concerts as we possibly can, and alot of them that are held in the summer here are free outdoor shows. I approach everyone from the local band that opened, to the national act that headlines, and I GIVE them a copy of my CD. Talk about a crap shoot. I look at it as throwing stones into a pond and creating ripples...sooner or later the ripples will hit something... maybe it's the bottom of a trash can, maybe it will be on some producer or A&R guys desk. Now, I don't want people to think that this is the only way I get my music out. I make carefully selected decisions as well. I just want to get my music into as many hands as possible..
Best ,
davey O.

Ther comments I've made here are directed less at Taxi and almost excuslively at the idea of "paying for review",which is something that I have a problem with.There will NEVER be a shortage of people willing to listen to your music for pay.Never.

I'm suggesting,like Frank,that you should mostly do it the old fashioned way.By hitting the streets,the clubs,showcasing,
recording,and bit by bit making contacts in the industry to get your stuff heard.
It is the most difficult way, but anyone who is serious about making it in the industry had better be prepared for the long haul.

The bottom line is that if you are perserverant you can get your stuff heard without paying for it.If knowing that you want to give a "pay for service" a shot,it's your money.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it.

Hello Again,
I just want to touch on something said by Lyn Ashley Music earlier; I bought a book back in 1989 called The Music Address Book by Michael Levine, and in the forward of the book rule number 1 was...(if my memory serves me) Don't pay anyone to review your music. It's dishonest. That's enough advice for me.
davey O.

The Music Address Book by Michael Levine, and in the forward of the book rule number 1 was...(if my memory serves me) Don't pay anyone to review your music. It's dishonest. That's enough advice for me.davey O. [/B][/QUOTE]

I have the same book and read the same thing! Actually, it has been said many times everywhere I've gone for information. Spend your pennies wisely!




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Bridget

That used to be the case, and I don't know if it has changed.

I recently joined TAXI and thus far my experience has been positive. This doesn't mean that my submissions have been forwarded, however, they have met all my expectations. I also find this thread quite interesting...especially the response from TAXI's president who was ready, willing and able to open he and his company up to public (and quite vocal) scrutiny. It seems his response has made timid those so eager to criticize.

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David

Timid? How do you figure? Is this really that tough to follow? I'll run it down one more time. I criticised TAXI for touting their critiques in their advertising when, in fact, as much as 30% of their listings DO NO offer critiques. You won't find that fact in their ad copy. That's my complaint, pure and simple. Mr Laskow's invitation to visit his office and meet his staff DOES NOT IN ANY WAY address this concern. Is that really so hard to follow? I'll break it down in terms anyone can understand. I could visit his office and meet his staff. Either they're good people of they're not. In either case it would not alter the facts I've stated. In fact, it wouldn't alter any of the things anyone on this thread has stated about TAXI. To me, Mr Laskow's offer is just more spin. It's what politicians do in those stupid televised 'debates'. Someone asks them about a specific issue and they answer a completely unrelated question. It's called "framing the debate".
So you spent your $300 and you're happy about it. Good for you. I'm happy for you. What I am NOT is made timid by Mr Laskow's empty offer. Jeez, use some logic. How about if Mr Laskow just offers to:
a) Offer critiques on ALL sumissions or
b) Place a prominent disclaimer on his website stating that NOT ALL SUBMISSIONS WILL BE CRITIQUED

How about that? Maybe he's the one who's timid, huh?

Frank

Hi all,

As a JPFolks mentor, I did want to point out a very important difference between paying someone to "review" your song for publication consideration and paying a professional instructor, teacher, mentor, coach, etc. for honest feedback aimed at improving your song or your craft.

Sara and I don't do private critiquing because we are so busy with our own writing careers. But we do have several friends that offer this service and are wonderful at it. Saying they should not be paid would be like saying you don't need to pay your guitar teacher or your vocal coach.

I think the comment in the book is meant for warning writers from paying people to review songs for possible publication consideration, (e.g, paying a "publisher" to listen to your material). That of course, is very different.

Best wishes,

Danny
----------------------------------
Danny Arena/Sara Light
The Songwriting Education Resource
www.craftofsongwriting.com

[This message has been edited by danny (edited 06-16-2002).]

Timid? I don't think so.

Michael Lasky seems like a nice guy running an above board business that I personaly would be disinclined to use.What part of that is a problem for you?

Danny, I see a major difference in comparing guitar & vocal lessons to a song critique. In taking instrument or vocal lessons, you are paying an instructor to teach you how to read music, understand music theory, solo over chord changes, and technique. These are things that are based on solid, foundational music principles, not opinion. I see song critiques as nothing more than another person's opinion on how THEY think you could improve a particular song. I think it's an underhanded way that some songwriters use to take advantage of the naive and supplement their income. These are writers that have in most cases, little or no more credentials than the people whose songs they are critiquing. Besides, I also don't believe that songwriting is something that can necessarily be taught. I think songwriting is something that is a gift that allows a person to be in touch with the human condition in a very special way and then to express those observations in song and lyrics. You might be able to show someone about forms, ie; verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge etc... but you can't teach someone about content. That's personal, and something that gets better with experience and time as you learn through that experience how to write, edit and how to carefully choose the language that you use in your songs. You also have to come to grips over the course of time that not every song you write is going to be golden. Sometimes you have to write a dozen clunkers to finally get a good one. You wanna know where I go for a song critique? To my audience. When I play a new song to my audience, their reaction helps me to gauge whether it has touched them or not. I am also very fortunate to have a producer/friend that is brutally honest and a wife that is equally and brutally honest when I play a new song for either of them. I'm sorry, my conscience just would not allow me to take advantage of another writer that way for a few supplemental dollars. I think a wiser situation would be to become a member of a local songwriters group and play a song for them every once in awhile, and in return offer an open and honest ear to the other members of the group. Everyone benefits, you can take or leave their opinions, and it's FREE. And, that's just my opinion...
All the Best,
davey O.

[This message has been edited by 3daveyO3 (edited 06-16-2002).]

>Danny, I see a major difference in >comparing guitar & vocal lessons to a song >critique. In taking instrument or vocal >lessons, you are paying an instructor to >teach you how to read music, understand >music theory, solo over chord changes, and >technique. These are things that are based >on solid, foundational music principles, >not opinion.

Yes, but I can make the same argument for teaching the craft of songwriting. While you cannot teach the talent nor perserverance needed to succeed in the business, you most certainly can teach the craft behind writing songs. Similarly you cannot teach someone to be a brilliant artist or sculptor like Michaelangelo, but there's a university in Florence Italy called the Academy, that young artists and sculptors flock to so they can study the art. This university was actually founded by Michaelangelo because he believed that much in studying the craft.

In songwriting for example, you can identify when someone's chorus falls short musically because it lacks contrast from the verse. It's also easy to identify when point of views have been switched between the verse and chorus, or rhyme schemes between sections. And while I agree with you that there are those that do try to take advantage of songwriters (which I also do not tolerate), I would argue that there are certainly those that can and do make a difference in some songwriter's life. Studying with Sheila Davis made a huge difference in my wife, Sara Light's life and her career.

Here's just a partial list of songwriters off the top of my head who have come up through the ranks of taking songwriting workshops and taking classes.

Diane Warren
Marvin Hamlisch
Don Schlitz
Hugh Prestwood - "The Song Remembers When"
Mike Reid - "I Can't Make You Love Me"
Mark Sanders - "I Hope You Dance"
Michael Peterson - "From Here To Eternity"
Carolyn Dawn Johnson - This year's ACM winner for best new vocalist. She was actually in the same ASCAP workshop as Sara and me and attended the NSAI song camps.

On a more personal note, out of our own writer's group class that we run at our house every spring, last year 6 out 7 of our students got accepted into the ASCAP country workshop (only 30 students were accepted out of 300 applicants). Two of those students have since gone on to get staff writing deals. One of those students was the grand prize winner in the Lilith Fair Songwriting Contest with a song that came through our writer's group.

It may just be that critiquing or mentoring is not a route that particularly works for you (which is entirely possible). Or it may be that you've never found the "right" instructor (which is also entirely possible). But it would be difficult to make the argument that it doesn't work for anyone...in my opinion, as with everything else in the business, there's always more that you can learn.

Best wishes,

-Danny
-----------------------------------
Danny Arena/Sara Light
The Songwriting Education Resource
www.craftofsongwriting.com

Danny,
I can understand your points, However, when a guitar instructor says A C# E is an A major triad, ther's not much arguing that. Unless you're in a different key and you're looking at the A as a G double sharp. Whether or not someone's chorus falls short or not is a matter of OPINION. If someone wants to pay someone else for that opinion and it helps them in any way, great. As with any art form, there are rules, but you have to know when to use the rules, not let them use you.
davey O.

>Whether or not someone's chorus falls short
>or not is a matter of OPINION.

I completely agree. In fact you might even say that a definition of commerical success in songwriting is writing something on which enough people have the same opinion. What we may not agree on is whether or not those that provide critiques are better tuned in to that commercial opinion. But we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one

It's also very important to distinguish between someone who merely provides critique versus instruction and feedback. There are obvious "teachable" concepts in the craft of songwriting. For example, the use of suspended rhyme or diminished rhyme. You can also teach someone what a flat seven chord is and how it's commonly used or what chords can substitute for the IV (4 chord) in a chord progression. The list goes on and on.

So my parting thought on this subject (and then I'm returning to the sidelines) is that not everyone who charges a fee for their songwriting related services is trying to take advantage of songwriters to make a buck. In fact, the majority of songwriting instructors I know, like the majority of any of the teachers at my college, do it because they:

a. Love to teach
b. Love to see their students succeed

We must be careful not to let a few unscruplous people cloud the entire issue or allow us to lump everyone into the same category. There are a lot of good ones out there too.

Best wishes,

-Danny
----------------------------------
Danny Arena/Sara Light
The Songwriting Education Resource
www.craftofsongwriting.com


[This message has been edited by danny (edited 06-17-2002).]

[This message has been edited by danny (edited 06-17-2002).]

Danny,
I again acknowledege your points and agree to diagree with them. I guess the main point I was trying to make is that critiques (even with instruction) are more opinion than are lessons on an instrument. One could compare Beethoven vs Bach and say that they both followed the accepted rules of composition for their time. However, to say whether one was better than the other is a matter of opinion. Or to say that Diane Warren is a better songwriter than Tori Amos. When you look honestly at what is going on in popular music today, I think it would be safe to say that some of the worst music is the stuff that's on the radio. Of course I am aware that this is only my opinion. However, most of the music that is on the radio is popular not because of consenting opinion, but rather because of the corporate dollars that the powers that be put behind it to force feed it to mindless, impressionable youth. When was the last time any of us out there went to a record store and bought a CD of an indie artist they had never heard of or bought some local bands music? I take chances in my music buying all the time. I hardly have anything that would be considered "Top of the charts" music in my CD collection. I know I'm completely taking this in another direction, and I apologize. I just had a few thoughts to express. I saw a great interview with Charlie Daniels yesterday on CMT where he talked of how homogenized the music business has become and about how Nashville in particular has become very "cookie cutter". Anyway, I have said enough.
davey O.

The rule on the amount of variation between the chorus and the verse is really quite simple and I'm happy to elaborate upon it here:
Too little is too little, enough is enough and too much is always too much. The exceptions to this rule are when too little is just exactly right, enough is just not enough, and when too much is even better. Make sure to vary your chorus just enough. Or too much. Or not at all, depending on whether your song sucks or not with it's current amount of variation.
Get a good book. Study hard and if you're lucky you too will be able write like lyrics like these:
I believe I can fly
I believe I can touch the sky
I think about it every night an' day
spread my wings and fly away

R. Kelly - Now THERE'S an artist. Fly/sky! How does he think of these rhymes!

Frank,
I love it!!! Being facetious is great!
davey O.

Glad you appreciated my humor Davey. I can't help being a wise-ass. Oh, maybe I could helpt it but ti's what comes naturally to me so I go with it. On the serious side, while I do like to have fun with books and teachers who want to help you write a "hit" song, I do think that mentors can be very helpful and good mentoring could be worth some serious money. Wouldn't you shell out some serious dough to pick Bob Dylan's brain about songwriting. I would. If you accept that premise then it's really just a question of who's brain you'd like to pick and how much it's worth to you. There's a good series on this site by the guy who runs the songwriting department at Berklee School Of Music. I found it very interesting. What I like about it was that it's pretty technically oriented and could apply to poetry or prose almost as well.

Frank

Yeah, I have to admit it, I'd pay to pick Dylan's brain. But, not some struggling writer in Nashville that has no more credentials than I do. That's the kind of nonsense I'm opposed to. Speaking of Dylan, he's playing the county fair where I live. I might have to check that out. I've gotta get my producer to get on these forums. He has alot of the same views as we do. Hey, the way I see it, if no one agrees with me, at the very least I'm letting off some steam.
Talk to ya soon,
davey

Davey

You have a producer?

Why,what does he do for you?

Do you pay him?

Yeah, he's a longtime friend who happens to lend an objective ear and co-produces my CD's with me. Constructive editing of parts, and getting the most out of me whether it's doing a vocal, guitar part... part musician, part psychologist!!! Not that it's any of your business what I pay him, we have an arrangement where I come in and do setup work in his studio when needed ( he's in a wheelchair and can't do things like mike setup and any lifting ). He also does alot of the work gratis because he believes strongly in my songs and wants to see them succeed. We went to college together and were bassists in our college Jazz Ensemble. He also has done composition work for local theater and for a small indie film called, "Sophia's Kiss". I apologize if it doesn't meet your criteria for a "producer".
davey O.

[This message has been edited by 3daveyO3 (edited 06-18-2002).]

[This message has been edited by 3daveyO3 (edited 06-18-2002).]

[This message has been edited by 3daveyO3 (edited 06-18-2002).]

Beyond the critique issue, how does TAXI hold up in terms of promoting your tunes to the various musical connections? I have considered joining, and don't really care about critiques but I'm concerned with the pomotional process. I've had a considrable amount of luck with various Leads Sheets and such, and have established several publishing agreements which cost me nothing compared to the membership fee of TAXI. Please submit your (appreciated) views. TJ Sullivan

TAXI does not promote your material or any material. What they provide is a screening service for publishers, producers, labels etc. You send them your material in response to a listing. If they think it's a perfect fit for that listing they forward it to the publisher,producer or whatever. End of story. It's really just a way of getting past the "No unsolicited material" barrier. If you already have a publisher with quality access to labels, producers, etc then you don't really need TAXI.

Frank

Thanks Frank, You're a Peach! I wish in this world, you'd really get what you paid for but the whole TAXI thing has been a bit of a mystery as to what I've heard and what actually is available to us writers' in terms of the subscription fee and results. Thanks for your "two cents" in terms of someone whose "been there and done that." TJ Sulluvan

My pleasure. I don't think I was saying anything that TAXI doesn't say. I don't think they bill themselves as being an advocate or promoter for anyone's music. They just screen it and pass it on if it qualifies. I have a publisher now in Nashville that is shopping my stuff to the major labels. I do think that's a better situation if you can get someone like that who really likes your stuff and will push it whenever and wherever they can.

I was a member of TAXI for a year and don't regret it. I got several songs forwarded and received some great and accurate feedback. Because of geographic convenience I was able to personally drop off most of my submissions at their office and the TAXI folks were always polite and professional. I did a lot of thinking before I joined and also communicated a bit by email with Michael Laskow, the founder, before joining. I decided for a guy like me with a day job (hence - little time to pump the music biz pavement) it was worth a try. The reason I did not renew was because the music biz is a biz built on relationships and as a TAXI member you have to sit back and wait for someone to contact you to build a relationship. TAXI doesn't give you the contact info on someone that accepts your song because some immature and/or whacko members have done things to frighten some of the TAXI contacts in the past. I sent Mr. Laskow a letter telling him why I would not renew and suggesting they find a way to screen out potentially 'problematic' members so some of us mature members can get a chance to build the relationships that must be built to succeed in the biz. I never heard back from him and I doubt they have changed the contact info policy. And developing a way to psychologically test someone would be difficult of course but maybe questions like "how many mice heads have you bitten off in the last year?" or "how many people have you flipped off on the freeway this week?" would be good.

The anonymous nature of TAXI's screening process bothers me too. You CAN request a particular screener for a CUSTOM critique- which cost you $10- and you can send that particular screener re-writes- and have a dialog... which is the only way you can 'pick someone's brain'.. but you never know who that particular person is.... You can also request NOT to be screened by a particular screener BY NUMBER.. if you feel that that person doesn't 'get your drift' or gives you some generic cirtique..


As far as Frank's beef about NO CRITIQUES... I think that's a valid issue. TAXI's line is that 'they're in the studio allready and they're in a hurry' or something like that...but the format at the Road Rally A&R panel, where industry big shots listen to demos and critique them, is strait from the Gong Show. The panelists raised their hands when they'd 'heard enough', which most often was during the first chorus. And they only waited that long to see if the song was going to 'pay off'. NO CRITIQUES means some anonymous screener will listen to 30 seconds of your song, and they don't want to be bothered telling you it's mediocre...

Mike Siegel

Davy

I think you missed my point,there's no need to apologize.

The point is that a producer is,as you state it,an objective ear that you bounce ideas off of.Someone you trust to help you get the best out of your material that is is normally paid.Right?If you are lucky enough to get a major label deal most likely your producer will be picked by a record company and have more to say about how your songs get strucured than you.At least until you get a few big hits under your belt.

That's pretty much the same thing that any music teacher,or instructor would do.Make comments on how your songs might be structured a little better,where to repeat the chorus or add a refrain,how to tell your story in a clear way,and make a powerful song.It's pretty much the same thing that a producer does.

Profesional writers have editors,and musicians have producers.There isn't anyone I know whose material can't be made better by the right "other" objective ear.I'd strongly suggest that a well chosen instructor in writing and producing is well worth the investment to most singer/songwriters.

One of the other things that has concerned me is what happens after a song is forwared.How do you know that just because a song was forwarded it actually got listened to.Obviously in some,perhaps most,it does.But how do you KNOW it doesn't just get fortwarded,then stuck in a drawer and forgotten?

Let me tell you about my experiences with TAXI:

I am a music supervisor and have other interests, but they aren't relevant here. My first listing at Taxi as a music supervisor was for an Independent Film with a budget under Five Million. I had exhausted all of my contacts in the Indie music world, so I decided to call TAXI. I knew them from my days as an A&R guy at Warner Bros. and Epic Records, where they never wasted my time sending me shitty bands and songs. I respected them for that because virtually anyone else would've exploited the connection and sent me everything they had a piece of (a financial stake). I knew TAXI had no financial stake in the music they sent me, so they would be select.

For my film, they put out a YES/NO listing that I personally screened. I was extremely under the gun, and I appreciated the fact that they put a very specific listing together based on my criteria, and invited me in to listen to the songs myself (I'm a bit of a control freak, as they sensed.). I didn't have time to critique these songs, I wanted to come to their offices, throw some headphones on, find the few songs that could work, and rush over to the director's office to play them for him.

It was a very positive experience for me. I was impressed with the caliber of talent (even from those that clearly had a long way to grow before they could ever potentially make a real impact in the music biz.). While listening, I had so many obvious comments that I would've passed on to the band / writer, but it wasn't the right format.

For my next listing (a different film) I told them that I would like to give some feedback to the artists that took the time to submit for my film, and it led to me becoming a part-time screener for them. I graduated from Berklee College of Music, where my focus was on Songwriting, and all of my A&R gigs required looking for songs for the artists on our Roster. I was certainly well versed in what was good and what was bad about a song, and I always had a real "ear" for what was a going to be a hit, and I enjoyed the chance to share my insider knowledge with these hopeful up-and-coming artists and writers

As I was browsing a web site more dedicated to the business side of music, I found a link to this post, (not really this post but to the board). Anyone who knows me can tell you that I'm extremely publicity shy. I'm in this for the music, not the notoriety or arguing with up and coming artists and wannabe's.

I find it quite interesting that Frank went on and on about the percentage of songs that would or would not receive a critique, yet when he DID receive feedback he completely dismissed it! There is nothing wrong in someone telling you to focus your story. For those who seem to think that they already know all they need to and cannot accept honest feedback…. TAXI is probably not right for you. Was it just one opinion? Yes it was, but that opinion came from someone with REAL experience in the music industry. Can you dismiss it? Sure, that's your right, but what if you could make the song better? Do you think that once you reach a certain level, you no longer need feedback? Do you think that writers who have "made it" no longer accept feedback from the likes of Clive Davis?

I also got a big chuckle from Frank's comment to just "compare your own tunes to the great tunes you love and admit where you come up short." I love that comment. I don't know where San Marcos is, but in my world, an individual is the LAST one to recognize or even acknowledge his / her own shortcomings. That statement is either so naïve I'm scared that you put it in print, or it is eternally optimistic.

Here is my take on TAXI:
First, the $300 bucks is worth it SOLELY based on the Road Rally Convention. I've been to tons of conventions in my time in the biz, and they drew an AUTHENTIC A-List of talented executives for their panels that rivaled some of the best Industry Conventions I've ever attended. And my company has had to fork out $1,000 in many instances to cover admission to these types of things.
Second, you only get ONE chance to make a first impression with A&R and publishers, managers and agents. If you don't BLOW ME AWAY (the generic "me" for music industry) on the first try, I'm probably done with you. Wouldn't you think it was worth it to be able to get some honest feedback from people who work in the music business, who are there NOT to judge whether or not you are right for their roster, but to provide relevant feedback and critiques so that when you do get the chance to make your first impression, it's the right one? If you say NO to this, then clearly TAXI is not for you.
Third, the screeners really do give a [naughty word removed]. You should see what happens when someone finds something that they love. The rest of us are literally jealous that WE didn't get to hear it first. We are music lovers, and the people who work there really do care, and they do want to make a difference and they can probably give you more useful and applicable feedback than all the songwriting groups and bulletin boards that exist.

I would not suggest that someone sign up to TAXI and use them solely to "promote" your music, as TJ Sullivan mentioned. You are missing the point. It all goes back to first impressions. Just because you're the Shiznit in your home town doesn't mean that anyone in the industry gives a darn about you. You better be damned sure that you are ready, so why not get the feedback.

Is signing up with TAXI gonna make you a rock star? Probably not. If you're going in with that impression, you need to step back and take a realistic look at what you're doing, because that is just plain wrong, folks. TAXI is one part of an equation to make yourselves better artists, better writers and a better band. As Frank and JohnnyRock mentioned, you've got to do it all… play as many live shows as possible, write every day, get out there to local radio and try to get your music played, build a fan base and create a story. If you can't accept feedback from TAXI, just wait until you meet with a label.

I love the people who work there. They are good people and true music lovers. I think it's a shame that you (Frank) passed up on Michael's opportunity to come to LA to learn and grow and get a rare insiders look at the biz.

Closed minds equal closed doors.


[This message has been edited by Ted Lowe (edited 06-27-2002).]

Interesting, first hand account Ted!

Please email me, as I have a business question, not for this board.

Thank you,
John Daubert
dhsongs@comcast.net

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John Daubert,
Daubert & Holcombe
D&H Records/Publishing, ASCAP
www.mp3.com/dhsongs

Nice post, Ted. All that text and you somehow managed to skirt my whole issue. In fact, of all the people that have given me grief over me accurately reporting my experience with Taxi, not one has managed to address my concerns about TAXI's advertising. Not one. Not Mr Laskow, not you, no one. Instead of using epithets like "naive" and "wannabe", maybe you could find the time to just address the issue. Of course, it's always heartening to hear an "industry professional" such as yourself referring to struggling artists as "wannabes". That attitude alone is probably worth $300. But not my $300. Thanks for the education, Ted. I'm not naive anymore.

Frank

Hi,
I have follwed this debate regularly, and it seems to have become a debate over song critiquing rather than TAXI. I have to admit, I share alot of the same sentiments as Frank regarding the music industry. I think Frank's point is that while he may not care to hear someone's opinion of his material at TAXI, if he's under the impression that he's supposed to get a fair and honest critique for his $300 plus $5.00 per song, he should get one. And I think Frank believes if there isn't going to be a critique of all submissions, TAXI should exercise truth in advertising and tell the consumer this info. Now back to the subject of song critiquing; I again agree with Frank on this one as well. I take issue with anyone calling me a "wannabe" when it comes to music. I have played as a professional bassist for most of my career including stints with several signed bands, on indie labels and one on a major label. I have an Associate's Degree in Music, Music theory and Performance, Major in Electric Bass, Minor Voice/Piano from Villa Maria College of Buffalo. I am both a writer and publisher member of ASCAP. I perform as a solo artist regularly in coffeehouses and other venues throughout my region. I have released two CD's on my own label. And although it's not alot of money, I do receive a royalty check from ASCAP based on my performances of my material. Song critiqing to me is nothing more than opinion. When someone writes a song, it's that individual's take on an event that occurred in their life experience. If that person's way of expressing it doesn't fit a particular rhyme scheme, too bad. By critiquing a person's lyrics in particular, one is saying that their experience has no validation by the rules of professional songwriting. Everyone wants the "quick hit", make the money and run. Who cares if we ever hear from you again. Not me. It's all a great journey, and I grow and learn with every song that I write. I want to write songs that are going to be as valid in 50 years from now as they are now. While I am happy to see singer/songwriter's that actually play an instrument making a bit of a comeback (ie, Vanessa Carlton, John Mayer, Michelle Branch) it saddens me to know that when CD #2 comes out next year and it only sells 2 million units versus them 5-6 million of the debut CD, they'll be considered a disappointment and dropped, and the opportunity to grow and develop will be missed. In the most recent issue of Guitar Player, there is a wonderful, but brief article with Michelle Shocked on songwriting. For those who don't know, Michelle was signed about a decade ago solely on the strength of her demo that was done on a ghetto blaster. Any way, I can't agree more with statements like these; "Tricks and rules steal all the magic and mystery from songwriting. Those things are just designed to turn songs into cash machines." Now, one might say who the hell is she? She doesn't have a song in the Top 40. Exactly, and she probably doesn't want to either. She is an artist. Not a recording artist, like Tim McGraw, Kenney Chesney or Faith Hill. Those people will sell a trillion more records that Michelle Shocked ever will. A trillion more records of completely forgettable, formulated music. As I look at the cover of this magazine I see Alex Lifeson, the guitarist for my favorite band, Rush. Being a bassist, I was strongly influenced by this band. But my thoughts were these; imagine if some of the songs of Rush were to be put before a song crititue. Or imagine the lyrics for "Stairway To Heaven" being critiqued? I could hear it now..."Now , um, Robert, just what exactly is a bustle in your hedgerow?" Go with your gut. Take the high road. Write from your heart. Be willing to struggle. And in the long run, you'll be a better writer, and a better human being, with a honest, unfabricated view on life. Bottom line is, at the end of the day, only one person has to live with your songs...YOU!!!!!!
All The Best,
davey O.
davey O. music (ASCAP)
http://daveyomusic.freehosting.net

[This message has been edited by 3daveyO3 (edited 07-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by 3daveyO3 (edited 07-04-2002).]

Another good post, Davey. Apparently you're the only one here who can grasp my complaint, in spite of the fact that I've outlined it about 20 times now.

I also agree with the rest of your post regarding commercial vs artistic success. Of course it'll be dismissed as the whining of a frustrated wannabe, but anyone with an ear can turn on the radio for 10 minutes and know whether it's all about quality or all about the dough-re-mi.

Frank

Thanks Frank.... obviously we share some kind of commonality when it comes to music. Whoa, did I say commonality???? That's a pretty big word for a wannabe.
Take care,
davey O.

Hey Davey. You asked at one point about swapping music. Well here's a link to one of my songs. Hope you like it.

Lo Fi:
http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=92680&q=Lo

Hi Fi:
http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=92680&q=Hi



------------------
www.soundclick.com/frankwilliamson

Well, I've been keeping quiet 'til now. I think there are a million paths to God, so what works for you works for you. I, personally, would probably not spend money to get a song critiqued. Why, you ask? Because I'm a naive wannabe. That's what got me into music. I've been a wannabe all my life. I wannabe a golfer, I wannabe a singer, and a songwriter. About the only thing I can hold my own with anyone on is bass playing, but I wannabe better at that.

I don't always work hard enough to get where I'd like to go. It seems as though it's a trade-off (rather be a good golfer or a good father?), but that shouldn't stop me from being a wannabe. So let's lay off the wannabe's, huh? I wannabe a wannabe.

Mike

Hey Frank,
I tried to check out your stuff here at work, but our computer here doesn't have the proper media player. Sorry, I'll have to check it out at home. If you want to check out my stuff, give it about a week or so and my CD's will be available at www.cdbaby.com, along with sound clips of 4 songs off of each CD, and they take the first 2 minutes of each of the 4 songs. By the way, I put some of my lyrics on the lyric board a couple of weeks back just as an experiment, to see how all of the nits would come out. I got some pretty good response to one song, but got picked to death on another. I'll never post another lyric on there again. If I don't know what I'm doing by now and how to express my experiences, then I had better get out. It's funny, there's all of the nits on the lyric board, but one of the biggest compliments that I get from people that hear my stuff is about my lyric writing. Besides, how can you honestly just critique a lyric without hearing how it works in concert with the music? Sometimes the chord changes, the melody and phrasing lend a great deal to completing the whole picture. Go figure. Take care.
davey O.

Lots of good points here. The stuff about how lousy contemporary music is makes me laugh. It's ALWAYS been that way. The comical thing is how utterly predictable it is!

My dad, back in the 60's, could not have told the difference between the Rolling Stones and Herman's Hermits if you had held a gun to his head. I thought he was deaf. But, give him a 3-second clip and he could distinguish a Count Basie tune from a Duke Ellington tune--a distinction that is STILL lost on me.

Here I am all these years later. I can't tell NSYNC from Backstreets nor Creed from Smashing Pumpkins, nor Alanis from Jewel. It all sounds the same to me--bad. But my kids know and appreciate the difference. Good for them!

I alway thought "Stairway to Heaven" was a dumb song. I thought so the first time I heard it, and I still think so, even though I was a pretty fair Zep fan. Yep...if it were critiqued today, it would be slaughtered for being overblown and pompous. Deservedly so. To each his own.

When you are wondering why comtemporary music sounds so bad to you, I suggest you consult your birth certificate. There is a pretty good chance the year on there is pre-1980. But don't dispair. You are no different than any other generation of music lovers; you did not invent indignation (this may shock you: Elvis and the Beatles and everyone else who ever amounted to anything in music were vilified by the fogies); and the music you love is no better or worse than that of other generation.

Well I'm going to strongly disagree. Age is not necessarily associated with disenchantment. I'm pushing 50 and I can tell you the difference between Smashing Pumpkins and Creed is that Creed is a "me-too" grunge band and Smashing Pumpkins is more of an "art rock" band that really has some nice songs. The difference between Jewel and Alanis is that one of them sings and the other one whines. The sooner Alanis's career comes to an end the better off we'll all be.

Truman, Actually, you're correct about my birth date. I was hatched in 1963. However, while I may have cut my teeth as a bassist on Zep, Rush, Yes and the like, today my music collection and tastes range from the aforementioned bands, to James Taylor, Jewel, Gillian Welch, Soul Asylum, Counting Crows, Blue Rodeo, Paul Westerberg, Pete Townshend, Miles Davis, Sting, Tracy Chapman, Jaco Pastorius etc... lots of diversity. I just like good music (my opinion of what good music is may vary from yours of course!) of all genres. Except for fabricated, lip synching, popstar crap. Just some thoughts... But, it's not so much that I dislike contemporary music as it is the fact that the music industry that puts together "assembly line" pop acts, and tries to pass them off as "artists". I'm a big fan of anyone, regardless of musical genre, who pays their dues. Most acts nowadays are put together or signed off a demo and have to learn how to perform through choreographed dance routines etc... The last band that I can truly think of in this last decade or so that has done it the way I was brought up musically, is Dave Matthews Band. They played countless bar gigs, built a following, put out a couple of indie CD's and became a "band" together. They have longevity, they are continually developing and growing. That's the element that is so drastically missing and has been missing for a very long time from the music industry. Like our society, music has to be "instant" not only for the industry, but for the listener as well. No one wants to think anymore. Our society loves celebrity, yet frowns upon the artistic people of our world as "bohemians". Sad but true.
davey O.

[This message has been edited by 3daveyO3 (edited 07-05-2002).]

Shiznit! I do dig the flow of what 's going on here! Ted Lowe's "Next Shiznit" line takes the cake! Man, I like Shiznit!! I think TAXI offers certain opportunities for some of us and we just have to weigh out the possiblities and decide to write the check, hit the streets, or do whatever we have to do to get our music out there. There are so many ways and so few rules to really live by in the music business, it's part of what's so cool abut it and so F*#@'d up about it as well. This has been a particularly good thread for me. I like "spreading it out" as far as my networking possibilities go and, TAXI seems like a very viable avenue to pursue. Thanks to all for sharing!! Regards, TJ Sullivan

Wow! I'm kinda new here, and I'm certainly glad I signed up. A lot of good points have been made.

As far as contemporary music being lousy, I really don't think that the ratio of good stuff to bad stuff is really any different than it's ever been. I'd say that the reason why we romanticize the past is because we only remember the truly great and innovative artists, but we tend to forget those that were simply jumping on whatever the bandwagon was at the time. The Beatles are still a household name, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who can tell you who Freddy & The Dreamers were.

Unfortunately, it does seem as if there's a shortage of truly great artists that are well known to the public. Sure, you can point to Radiohead, Wilco, Weezer and a handfull of others, but the current situation really pales in comparison to that time in history when you could see legends like Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin and The Who perform at the same concert! (And without being robbed by Ticketmaster, I might add!) Then again, I'm only 25, so it's possible that I've just been brainwashed by VH1.

However, I'd still like to think that there's still good music being made. It's just gotten a little harder to find. Otherwise, I'm left with a grim future where popular music hit its artistic peak before I was born.

Hey Cheese,
More power to ya to realize at the age of 25 the differences that you do. I, unfortunately was educated rather late in my career about the business side of music. Some of it from friends, some of it from reading but too much of it from being burned first hand. Good luck in your pursuits and welcome aboard.
davey O.
davey O. music (ASCAP)
davey3o@cs.com
http://daveyomusic.freehosting.net

These are the best of times and the worst of times in music. Examples of why it's the worst of times have been discussed here already. The reason it's the best of times is that anyone who can scrape together 20 grand can produce a really top notch CD and sell it on the internet without ever going anywhere near the A&R department of the major labels. As someone has said there really is a lot of good music being made these days, you just have to look for it because it ain't being played by ClearChannel.