JPF Home Page Forums Lyric and MP3 Feedback MP3 Feedback Forum Done Preaching (mastered?)

And that assertion is based on what?

I am currently 3 months into one song, trying like hell to make it sound as good as I can. I'm not shoving it in front of anyone as it progresses but I'm as deep into it as I can get. Everything that I learn about audio tech is for the purpose of feeding the song.

Nicely stated. Same for me.

Fd is a melon head, but kinda fun in a twisted manner. Onward thru the fog.

Oh, I see where this is going... No amount of makeup will ever make Hillary Clinton look like Charlize Theron!

But when you post it, you wont want to hear anything about the song.

The original process was record a rough take, find ways to improve on it, something missing, get feedback, then doll it up

Now so much work is put into the recording, nobody wants to hear about the song cause they already did the work.

Melon head would have alot of people who take songwriting seriously agreeing with him.

Ask Kurt, or Couch, or Al, or Mark Kaufmann... he may or not agree completely, hes more of a recording guy. But he knows when he has a strong melody. And I said, people who write lyrics have vested interest in their songs too.

Yeah Japov, women have the ability to get professional production (Makeup and hairwork) and many wouldnt even go outside without it

Funny story, I went on a trip many years ago, my brother and some friends and some women. One woman was this seemingly HOT girl, nice everything, and her face was very pretty.

Well, somehow we crossed paths in the middle of the night, going to our rooms, and she didnt have her makeup on.

i was actually FRIGHTENED. She looked like something out of the exorcist, it is amazing what makeup does for women.

Then there are naturals who look good with nothing, and makeup actually makes them worse

Fd...
You should always stand up when you talk. It makes it easier to hear you when you always tawkin out cho azzzz.

And im sure its through rigorous years of talking out your azz, that you are able to say this? How else would you know?

If a salesman or a politician
will say anything and promise nothing
skirting issues of complication
with a smiling well intended notion

Then who�s the fool who will not question
such a gentleman�s lucrative device
if at the closing of transaction
all you have is good advice�..

Lol... I wonder, how did you two become so "invested" in this issue?

By virtue of being a "songwriter" you must have an audience, and the audience always has the last word. Perhaps our problem "here" is that we're all songwriters...

That is a point that I have made before regarding my music Tony.
My goal with the music is to make it good enough to upload thru distrokid and then once it gets up Spotify and other places, I am trying to promote it AND GET STRANGERS TO STREAM IT.

I have had no real success at doing that. I spent $250 on Spotify ads to see of I could get a bump in my streams. No real bump achieved.

The gist...
My stats on distrokid are my only real focus regarding my songs. I see Fd's opinion as singularly his opinion. If he says something nice about a tune of mine, I will be grateful. If he gives me some "pointers," I will take a look at the merit of them, but not weigh them heavily. (I have never been a big fan of Springsteen and have no desire to sound like him)

The focus...
To what extent do strangers ...(who do not write, but only listen to songs)... find my tunes appealing enough to use some of their time and attention to listen?

Right out of the gate...if the songs dont sound good immediately and keep sounding good...no one is going to listen.

Gotta bring Springsteen into it. ALWAYS has to.

The truth is, my mentioning Bruce often goes back to TS. They used to mention alot of songwriters. Billy Joe Shaver, WIllie Nelson, Merle, and never considered other genres. They believed country songwriters were superior. Which is a serious delusion. So i brought him up alot, he has the respect of most country songwriters anyway. but I brought him up much to their chagrin. Seems it still serves to tick people off, which is fun, Im a big fan, but I like many artists and kinds of music

If I were to comment on your song, it wouldnt be me looking for you to be a Springsteen. I have even outgrown his influence, Here and there it will show up.

And any comment I give, does not mean I know more, or think I know more, or that im better than anyone.,,

You say you want it to sound as good as possible. Are you aware that how you write, what your write, how you play, what you play, how you sing, what you sing affects the "sound" of it? If your melody goes nowhere, that sounds bad to a listener, if it doesnt build, it bores the listener. Its not all tech wizardry. Rhymes have sound, words have syntax.

Think of all the great rock songs that have lines in there that make zero sense, but they SOUND great. This is done on purpose, hey i dont care if it dont make sense it sounds great. Its not always meaning that matters. I think, especially in pop music, how the words sound are more important than what they mean

Anyway, what you want from the site, is not what everybody else wants. Its kind of funny to me that some of the folks still here, are so old, they probably havent written anything in ten, twenty years, but still hang around. I guess old habits die hard.

Your best stuff was marfa plane, and that time frame. There were a coupIe song. I remember hearing that, and thinking that song has something interesting. I didnt think much of your stuff prior to that, and I was very surprised to hear it. I dont know if it was craft or not, in the end if the song makes you think or feel something its good. Thats my main criteria, too much stuff here is completely made up.

Which can work if you are really really good at it.But, all you need is an ounce of "hey this is happening" to make it interesting.

Alot of people on songwriting sites never post anything. Always baffled me why they hang around. Not writing, not listening, not commenting on songs. But they will say something about politics.

Why dont you post marfa plain? Why didnt you use that to go on distrokid, it sounds better than anything else you have.

Yes you do. Ad nauseum.

Ps...My best song was not Marfa Plain. It is your opinion that is my best song. And only that.
It is a nice tune about a state of mind and rejuvenation.
But your claim provides a crystal clear example of why I will gladly consider your opinion regarding my songs, but give it little weight.

Thanks for providing that

Nice song JAPOV

It IS your best song, by miles. and not Davis.

Post it.

Vnorth, well take it from here sir, no song comments allowed in the song thread.....lol j/k

That is your opinion. And only your opinion.
I posted it previously. I see no reason to post it again as a result of this thread.

You and couch seem to think that your opinions were written on an unseen tablet that Moses brought down from the mountain.
Yet, they were not.

You're right, it sucks.

Once again...that is your opinion and nothing more.

You, more than anyone here, seek the VALIDATION of your opinion and what you consider to be the actual truth concerning someone else's song. And your espoused reason is to enable the songwriter to actually learn from your truth and then...actually grow in their songwriting skills.

As for me, I am not sure that you actually possess a good working scope and knowledge of the actual truth of songwriting skills.
And your opinions may lead down irrelevant side roads if taken too seriously. E.g. I dont want to view my songwriting through a Springsteen biased lens.

If MAB with his broad range of experience in both the song industry and as a song teacher, gave advice here...I would study his advice. May not agree with all of it but I would study. Not yours though. I appreciate when you take the time to comment, but dont hang on every word. You post too many things that dont seemed reasoned.

BTW...I do not blame MAB for not posting to songs here. I think that there are sound reasons for him to refrain.

When my brother and in law used to yell at their dog, she would run over to me and sit right next to me, cause she felt she was protected by me. Your doing that running to MAB, you mentioned him twice already here. Same thing with somebody releasing an album, if they post it here somebody might say something doesnt sound right. So they dont.

He doesnt post songs here because HE is a teacher. What happens if he posts a song and somebody critiques it? That doesnt bode well for a potential student. MAB is a very nice guy, and has some great stories , and should write a book.

But there is a reason he doesnt talk song craft here. His main focus is on teaching about networking and establishing relationships which is important whether the song is good or not, same principle.

And it makes you popular if everybody is capable of doing this.

It doesnt make you popular saying something is lacking.

I dont have any special critiquing knowledge, neither does anybody. But there are standards of what elements a song should have.

A great title, a memorable melody with enough variation to keep it interesting but not so much where you lose the listener. Strong opening line to draw the listener in, ways of building a story (which in pop is not really a thing, not enough words) Use of irony, metaphor, hyperbole (8 days a week) , alliteration, meter, rhyme, Finding the right marriage of music and lyric, prosody. learning the rules and then breaking them.

None of this is my knowledge, its all part of the craft, i dont think ive mastered the craft, far from it, but im aware of it, and what the theory is

Fat chance. You have your little issues and the triumph of truth over the patsies who just kiss each other on the forehead and provide a mother's smile. ...is a mainstay.
And you beat your little drum at every possible segue.

I also, know that you have a hard time reading something that refutes your opinions...but try real hard to read the obvious truth below.

People dont post their songs here, primarily to learn the craft of songwriting from others here.
They will say they do, but they don't.
Most people are looking for some exposure, validation and praise. People such as you.
If you start, laying out the raw truth, in the form of your opinion,...in addition to being arguable...it will assault the self perception of the writer and trigger anger.
If it happens enough, the place will lock up....and the very thing that you believe would open it up for the truth...will shut it down.

That is the clear obvious and oft repeated pattern of come-one-come-all songwriting sites.

Gotta wonder if and i really think Marty was the student this guy was talking about...

As a professor at Berklee, though, I ended up spending more time trying to convince my students that the rules of songwriting are a huge deal than I actually did teaching them. The general consensus was, "Rules are lame! My favorite indie artist follows no rules! Deez Nuts for president!" And my answer was, and has always will be, "Wrong, bro!"

https://blog.sonicbids.com/yes-there-are-rules-for-songwriting

Read it and weep

Rules ain't dirty

What I did with the students, and what I will do in these coming articles, is analyze the bejeezus out of famous pop songs and show you the rules the pros follow: the cheap tricks, the hacks, the cheats, the formulas, whatever you wanna call it. I like to call it craft.

Professional songwriters are not "artists." They are craftsmen. They know the rules and play by them. I understand this might sound a little icky to a lot of people, but remember this one thing: every song that has made a lasting impact on the career of its performing artist has been carefully crafted to have this exact effect.

Too bad that the professor is not here. I would pay attention to what he had to say.

It looks like you will have to stand-in for him...with your version of "the rules."

I enjoy working on songs, i enjoy it more than recording them, cause recording them is always a monumental task.

Do whatever you want, but dont tell me how to use this site.

I'm not telling you how to do anything.
I'm explaining the obviousness of what makes sense here and what doesn't.

You went and spent 250 on advertising, and you think you know others motivations, which is described as passive and patronizing.

I think more behind the scenes "vying for opportunities" goes on here than your aware of. Nobody is going to tell you they pitched a song and noting happened. They are only going to say it if something did happen.

Many are hobbyists, but there are just as many pitching, plugging, getting in others message box and asking questions, and just waiting for a chance to post something in the accomplishment thread.

If they are posting, they are also trying to do something with it. And not here for self esteem. Cause even if they are, praise only goes so far, once the song is buried, praise disappears

Honest question? Have you seen anybody online, who after years and years of posting songs, NEVER improve? The Same bad meodies, the same disjointed rhythms, the same I love you lyrics, they dont improve cause they dont know they arent good, and even minimal effort to write something better would drastically improve the next song.

Or think they are average and think its all the business...darn it, its just not fair for us great songwriters!

Whatever, if your reward is recording it yourself and you enjoy that, great, but dont come in my thread if i offer something that might improve the song, MIGHT. i enjoy that interaction.

"Whatever, as my man Japov said "im done preachin"

You went back and deleted that. LOL You couldn't do it. LOL

LMFAO!!!

For what it's worth, I see it like this...
The "music industry" has their own "formula" for what sells, and right or wrong they stick to it. Why? Because they created "BOTH"! They even create the mystique and engineer the notoriety that surrounds performers; That's called marketing and it's a major investment for them... not to mention a monetary risk if their investment flops. Think about it, whoever coined the phrase "rock star" is probably still alive lol, the industry is not that old. Radio stations, distributers, producers, labels... they're all an enormous cooperation that literally has the power to make you listen to whatever they want you to hear. However, being politically irreverent, sexy, and controversial doesn't hurt because any publicity is marketable. So, the next time you hear someone on the radio that makes you scratch your head and say, "Damn, if he can do it I sure as hell can," consider... he's devoted to his contract, working his ass off, and is probably just as poor as you. The best advise I've ever been given was by someone I actually despise for being such a "company man"(MAB lol)... but it makes perfect sense. "If you want to make a name for yourself in music, put together a band and start in your own neighborhood!" That's great advice if you're still young and sexy enough, but for the rest of us wasted youths... we have "JPF" and the hope that we'll get lucky, and perhaps a real performer will take an interest in one of our songs. Till then, we simply entertain each other

I agree, but theres also the independepent music industry. So few actually become even noticable, some break through in a big way, others have modest careers, some go fishing.

Absolutely, record companies and management people sign personalities, characters, as much as they do musicians. And even if we cant stand their music, they are working extremely hard, and its obviously paying off. Its not like American Idol where people appear out of nowhere and sometimes become huge stars. Out of all American Idols, maybe Carrie Underwood, Chris Daughtry, Jenifer Hudson, Are bonafied stars. Many have certainly done things with their music. But almost everybody who goes on the show gets chosen cause they have an interesting back story. "I was born with Spina Bifida, and the doctors told me I may never walk" that didnt stop me, and music helped me cope, next thing you know hes on stage on American Idol

Its all about marketing dollars and whether somebody thinks you will get make it back

But when it comes to songs themselves, not the artist, that's a different thing. Your looking for an artist who likes your song and wants to record it. In which case if dealing with big names, you better have good songs. Or else be lucky and get in with a team of writers, and write two words of the song and get credited.

We are entertaining ourselves, mostly. which is why so many different topics come up.

But if the reward is having written a good song and have a recording of it. Isnt it sweeter if its really good?

Lol... Thanx Steve

OK FD, here's your challenge... You, Marty, MAB... anybody, put your heads together and decide if there's anything at all redeemable about this song. Even if it needs to be completely re-written and re-vamped I'll do it, just tell me how to make it a hit

It has been a pleasure. I thought long and hard before writing my in depth and insightful post my friend. All kidding aside this is a really well written and performed song.

Steve

I think the drums are outstanding. That sliding suspensory chord, very nice. Guitar solo and use of effects very good, bass line very good,

I couldnt make it into a hit, cause im nobody. and the subject matter would never make it on radio, i wonder if even christian radio would take it.

But I could try t make it better. What id first do is meake it more melodious. You could still put your character into while having a more singable melody. I guess its kind of a variation of blues, so that again would not be hit type of stuff.

But Id try to carve out a better melody, id try to make changes happen in it sooner, i think the ear wanders after about 8 bars of the sliding affect. Going into some sort of b section. Building to your cool little chromatic chorus. Your chord changes get lost cause of the piano in there, cool piano run but distracting to the melody and the change, in a way that the chorus goes unoticed.

Basicly moving it along and not getting tired with it. I think id swing the chorus a bit more like a walking rhtyhm.

But as i said this was never and not intended to be a hit, even if had a magic wand to make it happen

But i do like it and appreciate your talent. and its very different than the typical fare.

Tony

Beyond VCVCBC, I wouldnt know what to tell you. I could suggest how to re-write the song so that I might like it better...but that is nothing to rely on if you wanted to insure "hit" quality.

If you would like Marty to tell you how Marty would write it. Well then, Marty is competent to do that and will.

Oh, come on man!
FD, you're supposed to be the "outside the box indie enthusiast..." I'm very disappointed! How am I supposed to be a RockStar if nobody will show me the instructions?!?

Just Kidding Lol

Ok, Melody... Ummm, who's gonna' sing it? How would you sing it? Would you sing it lol?

Re-write? Sure, go ahead

If that is for me?

First off...I think that the song is cool. It has a cranky message delivered with well married cranky music.
Second-ly, I wouldnt change anything. I would experiment with a few things and see if they worked to enhance what you have.

The articulation of the vocals and various instruments are very crisp and distinct in stereo field. That is one of the things that gives the song its' cool.
I think that your voice is very correct for the message and attitude of the song. There are a couple of spots where I might dial the inflective stylizing back on the vox...but that is matter of personal taste.

I really like the fact that the bass and drums and vox are right there in-your-face in the stereo field. I might experiment with creating slightly more width in the room and shifting the instruments left and right...not too far. Just a little more width between the band members.

I noticed a delay on the guitar here and there. The guitar comes in and out of the music. I would experiment with automating the delay and/or reverb and jacking it up in spots. Have the guitar transient hit front and center with the vox and bass and drums....and then have the efx kick in hard and fade the guitar back and up on the decay. And then the efx fall away.

When the vox land on "preachin," I'd experiment with the same automation in an attempt to make that word fly back and up into the room.

When you break to "we take too much credit," and the piano rolls...that sounds okay to me but offers an opportunity to contrast that section (chorus?) with the rest of the song by thickening the mix and body of the song with either piano chords or electric bar chords. It also offers an opportunity to introduce a little more melody.

Tony,
I could sit down to write 10,000 songs and none of them would sound like this. You made this sound good and cool. Me spelling out to you what to do on a song like this is backwards to reality. You are a talented guy and this song is something that you do well.

As I said early on in this thread....Well done.

Marty

Singing it is not the problem, you have an attitude that works, its a fine blues vocal.

A melody change would change the lyric, which I didnt write.

I would never write something like this so it be hard to fix it.

Ive never heard a style like this before to be honest. Ive heard blues, ive heard gospel and christian music, but I never heard it presented in this way, usually gospel and christian songs are nice nice, this is like "if you dont like what im saying get the [naughty word removed] out of my way"

And it does reference Jail House rock in a strange different way.

I dont know if you mean it to come across that way. But i havent heard anything like it, which is good. Maybe there is more of this type of stuff out there I dont know.

This will never be a hit song, thats ok, most artists who put out albums have one hit out of twelve.

It could be a really good song. and is a good listen as is.

How bout slide....brrr brrrrr.. line
chord change line

something to break up the monotony.

I wouldnt listen to other Gospel songwriters, they will always say its good cause its about God.

I dont have that problem lollllll. God made me how I am and he's pleased...i think

But this is a song for the artist himself to sing, not to pitch to another artist

My personal assessment of what the song is....

A protest type of song that combines a Bohemian Coffee shop / Jazz bar vibe where people applaud by snapping their fingers COMBINED with some electrics and showmanship combined with a "cranky" factor that Tony dialed in.

Fd...I should not have referenced you. I knew that it would invite something. Just consider it retracted and stricken from the official record.

Which time are you sorry for referencing me, theres at least a hundred.

I really was just poking at you FD, you're not the first to tell me I'm very "monotone".

Inflective stylizing lol... You mean those parts where I'm trying to make it back to the right note?

LOL

I mean those parts where I hear you loadin' up a lil' too much of your special sauce on the lyrics.

I was talking to marty who said he shouldnt have referenced me, but he cant help himself

Japov i think your voice works for blues, you should try some straight forward blues, if it dont work, so be it.

Add some of your own twists on it. Good thing about songs, we can always write more.

My approach to vocals is simple...
I already know I'm not a singer lol... So, I close all the windows, doors and curtains so the neighbors don't call the police to check on me again. Then I put on the headphones, grab the mic like a smoked turkey leg at the fair, hit record, take one last drag off my cigarette and just let it fly!

Some have even accused me of writing "rap" lyrics to compensate for my lack of vocal ability... I don't know if I would go THAT far, but I do completely understand the criticism lol

Now, back to my original question, "Mastered?" Did I catch all that in my recording?

im telling you give blues a shot, its more about the attitude

And you have power in your voice, you may not have finesse

Most important, do it cause you want to and enjoy it

White people can sing blues too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAjkD7gvvDk

Oh, I do a lot of that! Just ask Carroll Kiphen Lol! That style is my safety net, I even use a slide. But you have to admit, a little of that goes a long way. So, I tend to reserve that for "very special" lyrics

Here's an Idea... You two write me a lyric about songwriting. A "kiss my a$$" if you don't like it sort of thing!

I wouldnt know what to write Tony.

And Fd thinks that you are suppose to be all in and accepting of his enlightening critiques. He couldnt write it either. Such a song would be about him. You will have to write it yourself.


I have a title for such a song though....

"Tawkin' out cho Azzzz."

LOL

No, it is written, that japov requested my take,

He didnt ask you, but you gave a reply anyway

Wouldnt be about me, but I dont even know what hes talking about in this song. I cant write christian songs of any kind.

Nobody said they didnt like the song, this is the adnauseum part of it. Im a bad guy, what the [naughty word removed] did i say bad? Gave a few things he might try. Nobody is forcing him to do it. and nowehre did I state my ideas had to be done, or even considered. I was asked.

Strange folks. I had about enough of this. Im gonna work on my songs

Ummmm... What? Now I'm confused...
Look at everything here that you've written about songwriting, songwriters, and critics... Now, condense it down to a lyric and I'll sing it "Blues Style".
For real Lol